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The Lithers Guide to Manners and Etiquette

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20:41 / 28.10.05

I was a bit surprised to find that there was not already a thread on good manners or etiquette in Conversation. Are manners and etiquette just useless throwbacks to doily days, or can they - should they - be updated for modern times to prevent us from acting like a bunch of beastly boars?

The reason I thought of this is because I've been getting an unprecendented number of "pimp my shit" emails from old friends who go months/years without contacting me, then emerge from the ether and barely even pretend to want to catch up or say they've missed me before commanding me to look at their new project, website, business, festival, parade, encyclopedia, whatever the hell. I find this tacky in the extreme. Why don't you foist your amazing talents upon the people you see every day instead, and be a little more subtle about trying to use me as audience filler?

Anyway. The old-fashioned concept of etiquette, rather like knitting and child rearing, is making a comeback in popular culture. Why shouldn't we here at Barbelith be on the cutting edge? - which, by the way, faces in toward the plate.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

20:54 / 28.10.05

- which, by the way, faces in toward the plate.

I fucking knew it!

Excuse me, I have a bet to collect on.

17:28 / 29.10.05

It is bad manners to leave ibis to do all the work. We could get away with letting her do most of it, as long as we make a token effort.

That destroyer of relationships: arguments over who takes the rubbish out. On the Lith, this function is admirably performed by the mods but, in real life, it should ideally be turn about. Else, make a division between the recycling and the rest. Or buy your partner out by trading an unsavoury job in return, like washing the bath or the toilet. Make sure they do this job though, ideally before rubbish tossing times come.

It is important to think ahead when selecting a partner or committing to a relationship. Five minutes spent early on assessing whether this person will haul their own weight in garbage removing might save you hours of sulking later on. The advantages of mute, obliging and physically strong partners ought to be highlighted here.

If you have not arranged your domestic life sufficiently well and you do end up having one of those big fights over nothing, such as bin humphing, it is wise to invest in extra large extra strength black bin liners that will easily accommodate a large volume of body parts. Just in case you lose it and strike out, cursing the sudden but inevitable betrayal.

18:52 / 29.10.05

Xoc, how gracious of you. Expect a handwritten thank-you note in the mail within a week.

19:06 / 29.10.05

Associating boars with boors is potentially very offensive; the boar is a noble animal, and also has tusks that command respect.

On the subject of the original post, forwarding *any* email should be considered poor etiquette, unless the recipient has deliberately asked for it. Forwarding anything involving terrorist warnings, requests for help in identifying tsunami victims or in fact anything that you have been forwarded from somebody outside the company not directly relevant to work is utterly inexcusable. They are always, always, always bollocks. And what's more, you're illustrating the fact that you earn twice to ten times as much as I do whilst still being a fuckwit, which is just going to incite rebellion.

23:15 / 30.10.05

In my opinion forwarding email is acceptable, but only if the subject has some specific relevance for the recepient (e.g. if it contains information on a subject you've previously discussed).

You should also include a detailed description on why you think the recipient would find it worthwhile. Merely forwarding an email with no explanation is hideously impolite and in fact tantamount to spam.

02:55 / 31.10.05

Email spam, whether from friends, company chair-warmers with nothing better to do, or outsiders, deserves condign punishment, and the death penalty for second offenses. (All right, all right. Death penalty for third offenses.)

Having established the fact that I'm a calm and reasonable person, I'd like to express my opinion of people who bellow on their cell phones. WANKERS. (Ahem.) I mean, wankers. Is there any hope that the concept of a private conversation could be resurrected? Or am I crazy to be annoyed at all the people yammering away to their private ghosts in public places?

00:52 / 01.11.05

ANYONE recieving a call on there mobile phone, should excuse themselves from a conversation/group and only if necessary (sorry about the spelling)

When two people that one knows, meet, in your presence, it is your obligation to introduce them formally.

When sharing drugs that an other party has paid for it is customary to wait untill that party has offered said substances, if a period of an hour as passed, you may remind them jovially. but dont be pushy.

01:44 / 01.11.05

As I understand it, in the UK anyway, there are something three, to-be-heavily promoted, on the back of the still-to-me-anyway inexplicable success of 'Eat's Shoot's Leaves' (For non-Uk-ers, it was aboot correct punctuation, and stuff like that) books coming out this year on the subject of manners, etiquette and so on. And I imagine they'll do pretty well, in the same way that 'Men Are From Mars...' did at the time, ie, insofar as they'll restate the bleeding obvious to dramatic effect, thus reassuring a slightly crass age that isn't quite as boorish as it sometimes suspects, in its more honest moments.

Eg 'When my partner speaks to me about issues ze has, I... I don't just always go to the gin mill/smash the plates etc! Ergo, I have emotional intelligence,' in the case of MAFMWA?FV, or;

'No, I am not the sort of person to make my excuses during the hors d'ouevre section of a dinner party, and then head off into the kitchen to jack off into the hollandaise sauce, I'm more civilised than that,' as far as manners books go.

In the general run of things, as opposed to, say, on Saturday night down the Torture Garden, (although there, having said that, in particular I guess, you'd have to mind your 'P's & Q's,) isn't 'manners' simply the practice of treating others in the much the same way that you'd like to be treated yourself? Like it says in the Bible? And if so, isn't the renewed cultural emphasis (and I'd agree that there is one,) on matters related really just a sign of a culture that's apparently just totally lost its imagination?

Or to put it another way, under what circumstances, at a dinner party, is it now considered not ok to interefere, sexually, with the dessert?

08:57 / 01.11.05

Politeness is like smiling at people, or obeying traffic conventions. Makes the world a nicer place, avoids weeping and bloodshed.

The advantages of mute, obliging and physically strong partners ought to be highlighted here. Xoc, I'm about to quote you out of context...

Tabitha Tickletooth

12:13 / 06.10.06

A question of etiquette/manners: if you snore like a bastard, should you book yourself a bunk in a shared dormitory in a hostel. I ask because I spent the night in such a dorm room in Canterbury this week. There were eight people, all booked separately, sharing the room, at £13 each per night. I had cycled down from London, and was absolutely buggered - went out for dinner, got home around midnight and climbed quietly into bed to crash out. I'd just started dozing off when one of the people started snoring, incredibly loudly, and continued to do so all night.

The next morning, over breakfast, someone from the room mentioned that they were glad they were checking out that day because in three nights they had not managed to sleep well because of the incessant snoring. Three other people chipped in with similar sentiments and one, who had also been there for three days, noted that after the first night, she had mentioned it to the girl who had laughed it off, apologised and suggested someone just give her a kick when she started.

Now, I don't want to seem churlish, but fuck me. People booked into dorm rooms in hostels do so purely to have somewhere to sleep. Effectively, in a room of eight people all paying their £13 per night, at least half couldn't sleep because one person snored like a bastard - and knew that they did so. I realise that hostels are the most cost-effective accommodation available on many occasions, and that's one of the main reasons people (me included) use them, and that this person possibly couldn't afford more expensive accommodation.

Still, am I being unreasonable in thinking that this constitutes selfishness, a bit? I realise it's a tricky situation - it's hardly her fault that she snores - but it clearly impacts in the most basic way possible on everyone else in the room. What's the etiquette of shared accommodation for snorers?

12:31 / 06.10.06

I don´t see it as selfish. We need sleep for a reason. And if seven people didn´t get enough sleep for a couple of nights, they don´t function properly anymore and are more of a danger to people around them and themselves due to lack of concentration etc.

Being a victim of a snoring person, I´m not objective on this topic, though.

In the year 2006, you should be able to do something about your snoring. My father was snoring very loudly and his doctor send him to a sleep lab, he slept there once in a while, they gave him some mask and did other stuff. I don´t know if it helped, I moved out as fast as I could.

12:32 / 06.10.06

I think manners might be our British way of navigating in a society which has been multicultural since the last ice age. But anyway:

What's the etiquette of shared accommodation for snorers?

Sympathy for your recent uncomfortable night.

Personally I favour approaching the snorer and saying "You were snoring, please will you turn over?", then touching a "safe body part" ie elbow or upper arm to alert them and repeating something similar. I'm motivated by wanting to spare them being resented for keeping people awake.

14:43 / 06.10.06

In the year 2006, you should be able to do something about your snoring.

Yeah, and all those selfish bastard sleepwalkers and talkers should sort themselves out as well. And those people who make those weird jumpy movements when they hit REM. And people who dream! Sheesh! what's that about? All these people performing involuntary actions in their sleep. So inconsiderate, you'd think they couldn't control it or something.

You're right about the hostel thing, though. If you know you snore, you should be in a separate room. THAT you can do something about.

05:10 / 07.10.06

Hm. The snorer could buy earplugs for everyone? Cheaper than the separate room she might not be able to afford?

19:03 / 07.10.06

Tabitha Tickletooth, there was (allegedly) a Tabitha Tickle-Smith at my school, any relation? You could, if really peeved, comfort yourself with the likelihood that the snorer has sleep apnoea, which can actually be pretty dangerous by increasing the risk of heart attacks, driving accidents (through sleep deprivation) and so on. And yes, snorers probably should book themselves single rooms, though it seems a bit hard on the impoverished ones.

I recently got e-mail from a friend I hadn't heard from in months which didn't just look like the sort of chain e-mails some friends send you thinking they're funny/moving/of great world importance, it managed to look like computer-generated spam or even a virus. I believe it was entitled "all the lies of Reuters news agency?" and contained nothing but an attachment. Silly boy.

The creepy thing is when you dismiss an e-mail of that sort as made up, and it turns out to be true. Some years ago I got a petition protesting against the treatment of women in Afghanistan, before the news of what was actually going on there broke. I took it to be a sick joke, it seemed so incredible.

What should be the penalty for men who, with malice aforethought, deliberately hide a woman's chocolate?

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

19:12 / 07.10.06

Sleeping in the hallway outside.

It's the least vicious form of punishment I can formulate at the moment.

23:06 / 07.10.06

What should be the penalty for men who, with malice aforethought, deliberately hide a woman's chocolate?

Depends if he was told to hide it by said woman.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:24 / 07.10.06

Hang on, when did women get exclusive rights to being pissed off at people hiding their chocolate?

23:36 / 07.10.06

BECAUSE A MAN WILL ALWAYS KNOW WHERE HIS CHOCOLATE IS!

ALREADY EATEN!*

[*strong truth, subject to prevailing theobromine deficiencies. Always read the label.]

15:17 / 08.10.06

I do apologise for my thoughtless gender assumptions. I am sure this situation can happen in relationships of all gender configurations. It was more a warning to men that if a premenstrual woman wants chocolate, you give it to her and bow into the bargain. Hell, if I'd done this to my ex-girlfriend, I think she'd have stabbed me. There's nothing like the restless anxiety of not knowing where your chocolate is, drifting through the flat bereft, clambering on stools to check the top cupboards you can't usually reach, to turn a mild-mannered woman (/person) into a slavering, homicidal maniac. Actually, I'm probably sulking more now because I've just had two days of migraine and I won't be able to touch anything with sugar in it for a good week. I'll tell you a point of netiquette which should be made compulsory: if you want people to read what you're writing, make it readable. Don't put it in tiny font, use ellipses in place of all punctuation and leave out capitalisation altogether. Be nice to those of us who have visual problems and are also getting over migraines which may or may not have been aggravated by chocolate.

16:05 / 08.10.06

I put it you that it was not the chocolate but the delay in securing it that caused your migraine.

05:13 / 10.10.06

it is the height of rudeness to ever [evar!!11ll1 ?] interfere with another's chocolate. o, the calamity. even worse than eating h'ors doeuvres with the wrong fork. heaven forbid...

is it just me, or is it ok to feel impolited at by people who walk on the wrong side of the cycle/footpath and don't bother to move when politely belled at? in oz we drive/walk on the left, so those on the right side are in the way? they get upset at a bicycle swooshing past, but i bet they wouldn't begrudge a car if they walked on the road and a car asserted it's 'right' to the lane! i'm talkin' 'bout respect, people.

it is just me, innit?

pointless & uncalled for

07:22 / 10.10.06

A lot of people have trouble understanding the concepts of and differences between shared use and multiple use footpaths.

On shared use the proper form would be for cyclists to obey the local side of the road practice and all other users should go against the flow of vehicular traffic so that they can observe and be seen to observe oncoming traffic. Rule of marine traffic come into play giving the smaller vessels right of way. Groups of any kind should avoid impeding contra-flow traffic and where possible always leave a lane free.

On multiple use paths, where there is clear designation of space allocation to cyclists, pedestrians should endeavour to remain out of the cycle lane unless circumventing an obstacle in the pedestrian path. Shoulder-checking for pedestrians is wise but not required as on-coming cyclists should be able to determine where it is necessary for a pedestrian to obstruct them.

It is polite for cyclists to slow down when passing a pedestrian if the clearance is less than two feet.

The proper response to hearing a bell is to clearly observe the source of the belling and respond to visual clues as to which direction one should move to clear the path if required. Pedestrians should not adopt the bunny in the headlights stance as a belling is often predicated on the assumption that the pedestrian will do something other than stand stock still. They should also not veer heavily when looking behind them. In response, cyclists should not rely on the switch manouver.

I think that covers it but will accept further questions.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

09:34 / 10.10.06

Extending the cyclist thing: motorists, please don't make up weird rules in your head to dictate how you deal with cyclists. I cannot see you clearly through your windshield while you nod or shake your head or make complicated hand gestures or give me the finger.

Pretend, if you will, that bicycles are little cars.

The polite thing to do is to give the cyclist the same respect and treat them with the same courtesy -- and same expectation of rules -- as any road vehicle.

If you, for instance, get to the same four-way stop as a cyclist first, don't sit there in the expectation that the cyclist will somehow know you're "letting him go first." The cyclist just wants to know what to expect from the motorist, because motorists are about 20% drooling idiots that shouldn't be allowed to push a grocery cart much less operate a half-ton killing machine. As far as I know, you're waiting for me to pull out into the intersection so you can plough into me. And now other cars are pulling up on all sides of the four-way stop and we're in a crazy standoff, and then the honking starts. It's a bad scene.

I know, when you risk my life and your paint job, half the time you're "trying to be nice," and the other half you're angry about your failed marriage or toe pain or just the general pathos of life and want to take it out on me, and I appreciate/pity you appropriately. But I'm just trying to get to work and get home without being killed, and I have all the same laws to follow as you do. Please, for the love of God, let me follow them.

Cyclists, please respect motorists. Every time I see a fellow biker breeze through a red light or do the "I'm so cool" duck n' weave through traffic, I wince and curse and hope somebody bounces the fucker around the intersection, because you're the reason auto drivers think cyclists are a bunch of mad bastards that can't be predicted and that you might as well ignore or improvise with.

In short: there are traffic rules, people. Bicycles are road vehicles, just like cars. Let's all just do the "traffic rules" thing and we'll all be okay, okay? I have enough accident scars* to last me a lifetime.

*four

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:47 / 10.10.06

You're a God.

pointless & uncalled for

10:05 / 10.10.06

Furthermore, to motorists, the polite distance for passing a bicycle is three feet. It is also polite to allow a cyclist to ride outside of the door zone, that area of the road that can all too swiftly be occupied by the opening door of a parked car.

In addition, passing should be done in a smooth and consistent fashion that might just indicate that you are a responsible, safe and confident driver. Roaring up to draw level with the bicycles rear wheel, jamming the brakes, swerving wildly and then acceleration rapidly away is unlikely to inspire us with the confidence that you're not going to kill us.

As for cyclists, not only should you obey the rules of the road that you are using, but it is also polite to show some common courtesy to those other road users who make an effort. A little wave or a nod to drivers who let you in/across/out or hold back until it is properly safe to pass isn't difficult and the very least you can do. It is also likely to ensure that it continues to happen in the future.

Tabitha Tickletooth

11:13 / 10.10.06

Oo oo, can I have a go. Motorists, can you please take a moment to reflect on what an 'indicator' is for. When I pull up next to you at the lights, and I look at your indicator (not turned on) and I look at you, and I look at your indicator (still turned off) again, I assume that you are not turning the corner, because you have not indicated your intention to do so.

Pulling across me, turning the corner and switching your indicator light on AS YOU TURN the corner is both rude and dangerous. What function do you think your indicator light serves if you only turn it on once you are turning - I've already guessed you're turning the corner by that point because you are TURNING THE CORNER. Please consider using your indicator to indicate your intention to turn prior to doing so. Thankyou.

Complete agreement with all comments above on the need for cyclists to fulfil their part of the transport users contract - we've all got to share these routes so let's see if we can make it as pleasant as possible for all concerned.

Next week - bicycle lanes: why they aren't called scooter and motorbike lanes.

pointless & uncalled for

11:25 / 10.10.06

why they aren't called scooter and motorbike lanes

Or extentions of the curb line for pedestrians to enter when they want to cross the road.

Or parking lanes for that matter.

Garbage holding areas is right out.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:52 / 10.10.06

Tabitha- you don't need to be on a bike to get pissed off about the indicator thing. Just trying to cross the road with a dog is qualification enough.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:01 / 11.10.06

Oooh! But that brings up the most evil people on the road: parents who use their children's pushchairs as a means of forcing their way into the flow of traffic when they want to cross the road (whether or not there is a crossing). People, listen up: that's your kid. I don't care how badly you want to get to the other side of the road, the kid is more important.

Jake, Colossus of Clout

18:14 / 11.10.06

Just a heads-up for all of my European friends:

In a U.S. restaurant or bar, tipping less than 15% of your bill is considered insulting and the height of rudeness. It makes your server hate you and hir manager/restaurant owner think that you had a shitty dining experience and just didn't tell anyone.

As a rule of thumb, a 15% tip indicates adequate service, 20% says that you had a very nice time, and 25%+ tells the staff that you had a truly exceptional meal in every aspect.

Wait staff and bartenders subsist almost entirely on tips in the states. Hourly wage typically covers taxes and little else. Thus, when one spends $100 on a meal and leaves four bucks as a tip, one is fucking one's server over, whether one knows it or not.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

18:24 / 11.10.06

Same goes for baristas at your local coffee shop. Tips are how I survived very very very well for five years.

18:42 / 11.10.06

25%+ for tips! It boggles the mind, I can´t imagine why I would ever give 25%. That´s really a cultural gap. The US should pay their waiters decent wages instead of keeping scroogy European tourists (like me) from getting icy glares. Your food must be really cheap, that you can afford such tips?

I ate indian food today and tipped about 13%, but only because the tip was 1 €, and the food + lassi was 7.80 €. That´s 9.80 US $ for the meal plus 1.25 US $ tip.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

18:50 / 11.10.06

Knew that would touch a nerve.

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