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A Magical Stance

 
  

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Quantum
10:12 / 03.11.05
the difficult problem of how we can get beyond our human subjective experience towards an understanding of what the world and universe is. sdv

I'm having real trouble engaging your arguments here dude, you seem to be assuming an objective reality and then saying it's difficult to access. It's impossible, noumena are theoretical constructs that by definition can't be directly accessed. We can only experience experience, innit.
I say we live in an anthropic world. What I *don't* mean is that the planet is literally man-shaped, obviously, and neither do I mean that the objective world revolves around us because we're God's chosen, which you seem to think to think I am saying, and your note on planes of singularities hasn't made anything explicit (to me at least, maybe I'm stupid), but rather confused the hell out of me. Do you have any thoughts on magic as an explanatory stance?
Please ignore my anthropomorphic and microcosm/macrocosm comments (in italics above) as they are simply examples of some magical beliefs I have, not any part of a justification of the rationality of magic, which I'm hoping is more widely applicable.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:11 / 04.11.05
(Though theres no need to invoke special or even general relativity).

Well, no, not in order to unserstand the or debate the thrust of this thread, but perhaps in as much as gravity has gone from not existing at all, to being invented by Sir Isaac and described as a Newtonian 'force', to being more accurately described by Uncle Albert as a function of the significant curvature of space-time by supermassive masses in the cosmos.

So, did Isaac Newton invent gravity? Or discover it? Before he invented/discovered it, what was it?
 
 
Quantum
14:48 / 04.11.05
As an Alchemist, Newton derived his theory of gravitation as action-at-a-distance from occult thought. Many people refused to believe his outlandish theory of invisible force fields, clearly contrary to reason.
 
 
SteppersFan
18:37 / 15.11.05
Again, I suspect I'm not your intended audience but... yes (cf RAW) there (probably) is an "objective" / etic reality, it's just outside our experience, which comprises emic reality.

Anyway, I'd like to attack you argument a little more fundamentally: why justify magic philosophically at all? Those of us who've experienced it can revel in the sheer hedonic rush of it all... those poor benighted souls who haven't should just accept that other people are experiencing a different sort of reality and quit trying to reduce everythingto mterialism...
 
 
Quantum
18:27 / 16.11.05
why justify magic philosophically at all?

To show it's possible to have a rational belief in magic. It's obvious you can have an irrational belief in it, no harm in that, but it makes it harder for people accustomed to the primacy of reason to entertain it as a convincing notion.
Also, why not? My hobbies include magic and philosophy, I like to mash them together and see what happens. You should see my epiphenomenomancy...
 
 
Morgana
16:17 / 23.01.06
I like your first approach, including the Kantian noumena, much better than its reformulation, because the first one made a distinction between subjective experiences and objective reality, which IMO is quite important.

I don't think it is necessary for the sake of your argument to postulate some kind of onthological Idealism. An epistemological one is enough - and much more appealing to common-sense.

The crucial point being that, though we usually think there is some objective reality causing our experiences, it is highly unlikely that we experience it in exactly the way it is.

It could also be helpful to introduce the concept of intersubjectivity instead of your notion of consensus, which seems to be rather mistakable, and stating that

a) there very likely is some kind of objective reality,

b) but as we are not able to approach this reality directly, we have to rely on our subjective experiences, which might differ quite a lot from it,

c) so to communicate our notions about objective reality, we first have to constitute some intersubjectively accessible theories, our peer-group generally agrees on, basing on subjective experiences.

This is a very general, and I think not very controversial statement, which leaves enough room for different ways to go on. E.g. one could start to investigate the nature of objective reality, which would either lead into the realms of phyics or of metaphysics. Also we could explore the ways reality is perceived and constructed from a psychological, sociological or philosophical point of view. Or talk about the ways theories are verified/falsified and do change over the centuries, i.e. Theory and History of Science.

I think all these approaches could be used to justify a magical worldview, without necessarily denying the existence of natural laws like gravitation (which, of course, can be explained in several ways, but that doesn't change the fact that I actually do experience myself as sticking to the ground on a very regular basis).

But it seems you're taking a different way with your argument, and I don't think I've really understood, where you are going.

Is it to say that magic and science are two different but equally valid theories about the world? There would be great difficulties in trying to prove that, I'm afraid. As there are some commonly agreed-on means to justify the validity of a theory and I don't really see the point in e.g. claiming that a thermostate is acting intentionally when the physical stance is so much more simple and logical.

Perhaps a pragmatic approach would be more promising - but I haven't really gone through this myself, yet. I'm just thinking there could be some good reasons e.g. to see a tree as a concious being in some situations, while it would be rather pointless in others.
 
 
Quantum
15:12 / 24.01.06
claiming that a thermostate is acting intentionally when the physical stance is so much more simple and logical.

Exactly my point- we adopt the physical stance for a thermostat because it's the most effective. It's not the most effective approach for dealing with a chess computer though- treating it as an intentional system is best, whether it is or not.

Perhaps a pragmatic approach would be more promising - but I haven't really gone through this myself, yet. I'm just thinking there could be some good reasons e.g. to see a tree as a concious being in some situations, while it would be rather pointless in others.

Exactly- we could adopt the intentional stance to interact with trees (or spirits) whether or not they're intentional beings because that is the stance with the most utility for some occasions.

For example last night when I was dropping off to sleep I had a strange interaction with a fear-spirit (or at least that's one way of interpreting my experience) where I treated it as though it were a conscious entity. It may have simply been me introspecting in a deranged way, but at the time it was the most sensible approach, as it was acting in a way that suggestion intentional states (e.g. trying to scare me).

In the same way, sometimes adopting a magical understanding of the world is the best response, for example when really strange coincidences start dogging you, or you find yourself in 'non-ordinary reality' like dreaming or hallucinating or whatever.
 
 
Morgana
14:51 / 26.01.06
Still I think a pragmaticist approach should show some measurable outcome. As when dealing with a chess computer you'll probably win more games if you adopt the intentional stance than if you adopt the design stance.

And that's rather difficult for a magical worldview. Well, perhaps your communication with fear-spirits would be quantifiable in terms of psychology. Like doing some research on the question wether people deal better with fears if they think of them as demons rather than as feelings.

But how would a magical stance help with strange experiences? Couldn't it make you even more paranoid?

On the other hand I think that kind of epistemological idealism has far more potential than only justifying a magical stance in certain situations. I think it can also account for mystic experiences, e.g., as direct perception of objective reality, while usually you percieve sense-impressions which are already subjective. So you don't even need a God to become a mystic, or perhaps at the end there's just no difference between God, noumena or sunyata.
 
  

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