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The Psychology Of Trolling

 
  

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Spaniel
14:18 / 03.11.05
What amazes me is that people actually post Psionic Nurse type shit on Barbelith and don't expect a negative reaction.

I mean, have they never read the board? And if so, what the fuck are they doing posting here?
 
 
Ganesh
14:19 / 03.11.05
The word "turd" seems to have been used to refer specifically to one aspect of one sentence ie. the generalisation relating to gypsies' malodourousness and inability to use computers. I think I'd agree that it ain't a pleasant word to use, but I guess Haus would justify it in terms of it being an apt metaphor for the offensiveness of the specific 'gypsies' comment.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:20 / 03.11.05
Yes, Calvin, but you're not providing any sort of rationale for your conclusion that PsionicNurse's treatment was unfair. She made a racist joke (and "off the Simpsons" is irrelevant for many reasons, context being one quite big one), and then attempted to shout, insult and lie her way out of any accountbaility for it. Your one contribution to that thread was abusive and unhelpful, and demonstrated little more than a desire to pick fights - de facto trolling, you might say. What exactly is your point here? As discussed at some length in this thread and that thread, it would be lovely if people could confront their use of racist (not "racialised", but _racist_) language and statements, but if that's too much to hope for then the next best thing is that they leave Barbelith and instead find somewhere else on the Internet less hostile to low-level racism - plenty of options exist - and thus get to live their lives in undisturbed racist peace. Psionicnurse had the option of taking responsibility for her actions and trying to work with Barbelith, chose not to accept and is now blissfully elsewhere. Now, what exactly does this have to do with trolling? Is your contention that Psionicnurse was trolling for attention, and if so should she have been treated as a troll rather than a writer of racially offensive things? How would that have differed?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:20 / 03.11.05
calvin, attempts to engage intelligently have been shown not to work either with PsionicNurse or with you. Also, the idea that the onus is on the people who haven't just said "gypsies smell of cabbage" to show restraint and diplomacy when dealing with the people who have seems counter-intuitive to me. But I suppose it would be: we clearly want very different things out of Barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:22 / 03.11.05
Ganesh: Quite correct - I was not talking about "her writing", merely the impact of this particular piece of her writing, which was described as akin to, if I recall correctly, a turd on a dining table.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:23 / 03.11.05
What amazes me is that people actually post Psionic Nurse type shit on Barbelith and don't expect a negative reaction.

I mean, have they never read the board? And if so, what the fuck are they doing posting here?


They've read the board, and concluded that if they make racist jokes, they can count on at least one or two people - regulars, even - to defend them. They've concluded that even if a few humourless PC fascists shout at them, they probably won't be banned, can lie low for a while and then pop up in a Lateshift or wherever, and be welcomed, and that if anyone points out their earlier posts, that person will be seen as a begrudging killjoy.
 
 
grim reader
14:34 / 03.11.05
I've suddenly lost interest. I'm impossible to engage with in reasoned discussion, clearly. Nevermind the pile of fucking posts i've made on this thread, only to have someone come on in the last few posts and call me a fuckwit and hurl a load of other accusations and abuse at me. And you keep referring back to stuff from ages ago that doesnt reflect the fact that i have been open to reassessing my own posting - something which doesnt seem to be reciprocated by [some of] the regulars. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if the tone shifts back to something worth engaging with again.
 
 
Quantum
14:34 / 03.11.05
*sigh* it seemed so promising for most of the first page. It certainly belongs here now though...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:40 / 03.11.05
I think it possibly belongs in the Conversation, at this point. As things stand, I'm not sure I have understood what Calvin's point is - a lot of it appears to have been based on a misunderstanding of the use of the word "turd" in a thread about racist language on Barbelith rather than about trolling per se, and I don't quite understand how either of these points ties back into a discussion about trolling.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:45 / 03.11.05
I didn't call you a fuckwit, calvin. However, your inability to comprehend that certainly suggests you are one. Cheerio!
 
 
Ganesh
14:53 / 03.11.05
Calvin, you seem to be insisting simultaneously that your use of the word "wogs" should not be revisited because you've since reassessed your own posting, but Haus referring to a specific racial slur as a "turd" should be reexamined because Haus has not (in your opinion) properly reassessed his posting.

I don't see these two situations as particularly equivalent at all. One is a racial slur (and a pretty fucking obscene one at that - even my seventysomething racist aunt doesn't try to get away with "wogs" anymore), the other is an expression of disgust at another racial slur. The one requires a good deal more 'personal reassessment of posting' than the other. I think you're attempting to draw an analogy (you saying "wogs" and reconsidering; Haus saying "turd" and not reconsidering) that doesn't hold.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:55 / 03.11.05
I move to blast this thread into oblivion, much as i'm usually totally opposed to such actions. My eyes are starting to bleed & my entire being is building up for a catastophic yawn.
Same record, same singers, still no action, the years role on!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:57 / 03.11.05
Well, obviously we all feel ashamed to be boring a man whose only decent contribution to the board was his choice of username...
 
 
grim reader
14:58 / 03.11.05
sorry for any misunderstanding, i've actually enjoyed engaging with haus on this discussion and have found him very open to me here, it wasnt to him i was referring with the comment about reassessing oneself.
 
 
Ganesh
14:59 / 03.11.05
Yes, it's boring as fuck, isn't it? Perhaps alternatives could be constructively suggested in the 'is something wrong with Barbelith' thread?
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
15:00 / 03.11.05
God, you don't half let yourself down sometimes Petey. That's not particularly called for really.
 
 
Ganesh
15:01 / 03.11.05
it wasnt to him i was referring with the comment about reassessing oneself.

Ahh. The self-reassessment stuff would be aimed at [some of] the [other] regulars, then. Regulars whose posting has included terminology as unacceptable as "wogs", one assumes.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:04 / 03.11.05
Harrison - oh, and this was called for, eh? Don't play the victim with me, sunshine.
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
15:07 / 03.11.05
Was actually meant to be taken as light-hearted. Sorry if you were offended, that wasn't my intention.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:08 / 03.11.05
Anyone not wanting to talk about something at least tangentially related to trolling (or, since the thread seems to have wandered that way, the relationship between racist language and trolling) please to seek a neutral corner and be quiet.
 
 
_Boboss
13:06 / 04.11.05


amused?
 
 
Smoothly
13:23 / 04.11.05
Not really, no.

Gumbitch, is there a point to any of this beyond trying to get a rise out of Flyboy, or should we just go ahead and delete it?
 
 
_Boboss
13:42 / 04.11.05
and that's the psychology of trolling.

(i didn't know you were in the royals!)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:43 / 04.11.05
P&H has always been the one area of the board where off-topic isn't welcome, as it's the only part of the board that serves any specific purpose. Haus has already asked that this thread be brought back on topic - if that doesn't happen and people don't stop acting like cocks, I can see it getting shoved into Conversation pretty quickly.
 
 
grant
15:13 / 04.11.05
This entire page of posts, and quite a few on the previous page, have squat to do with trolling and everything to do with discussions of racism on Barbelith, which is a whole other thread. If this was phbb, I'd think nothing of splitting it off about 3/4s of the way down page two and making two topics out of it. I can't do that here.

What motivates people to attack internet communities from inside? Watching the predictable beauty of chaos destroying discussion, just like the predictable beauty of blowing up anthills with a firecracker.

Does anyone think maybe locking this thread and unlocking it again in 24-36 hours would help?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:23 / 04.11.05
Maybe locking it and starting a new one with the original question (which was quite a good one while it lasted) would be an idea... 24 hours on a weekend makes jack buggery shit of a difference, as many posters won't even be back online until Monday morning.
 
 
--
20:12 / 07.11.05
I think that a lot of stuff said about trolls on the first page is very on the nose. Impact plays a big part, of course, but I think attention is also a huge factor. A troll most definetly craves attention, be it positive or negative, and they'll almost always try to steer the conversation of the thread towards themselves instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Using myself as an example, the very first message board I joined many years ago (back in, oh, 1999 or so) I was definetly a troll, but I hadn't intended on being one. In those days I would often do all my posts in a sort of "Genesis P-Orridge" style (that is, replacing the word "I" with "E" and so forth) which, as you can imagine, annoyed a helluva alot of people, and the more they complained, naturally, the more I kept at it, going to outrageous lenghts to defend myself... it became comical at one point and it was really splitting the board into two divisions. Of course, I was delighted with all this, but at some point I began making friends with people and eventually dropped it. For awhile I fit in, and it seemed that I was downgraded from "troll" to mere "drama queen" (ironically, when I was posting in Gen speak initially it wasn't to annoy, I just wanted my words to stand out from the rabble so more people would read them and notice me). However, after a bit of time I eventually posted my occult views on this place, which drew the mockery of most of the people there, most of 'em being atheists and all. This led to more combat, more angst, allegations (from me) of there being an elite group at work targeting and me, until finally I just quit the forums. Then I came here.

Where, of course, the pattern resurfaced. I guess I wasn't bad at first... In the old days, I spent most of my time in the comics forum. But then I went to Temple, and that opened up a whole new can of worms. I guess I was tolerated at first, but gradually people began to tire my antics, and I myself began blowing the most minute criticisms into massive proportions (I once ended a very long online friendship with someone merely over a passing remark he made that blew up into a gigantic war of words and bad feelings on both sides). Anyway, I found myself repeating the same antics I had done on my previous forum on this new one, that is, Barbelith. This pretty much came to a head during my infamous exit a few months ago. I must say, I really did enjoy that, the fact so many people were talking about me, even if it was in less then glowing terms. As usual, extreme behaviour was the order of the day.

Strangely enough, I went back to my old forum a few months ago and I've had no real bad incidents since. In fact, I feel very little need to get attention from them anymore, and I've adapted into their system much better. Maybe because at the time I was using Barbelith as an outlet for my drama queen theatrics, so I had no need to pester my old forum anymore. Weird, eh wot?

Speaking from a quasi-troll perspective, I will say that I agree with etruscan that there is a certain thrill about goading people on (a sick thrill, but a thrill nonetheless). I think that sometimes there are people who aren't really trolls deep down, but because they have social issues that don't let them mesh well with others they perceive that they're being attacked or ostracized or being made an example of and thus they lapse into troll-like behaviour (of course, then there are people who do it deliberatly and have no interest in making friends or valuable contributions... they just want to raise hell). As for myself, oddly enough, I usually go out of my way to shun any attention (both positive and negative) at all in meatspace so perhaps it manifests itself via the internet. Hell, some people just like playing the clown... it seemed to work for Salvador Dali, though one negative aspect of that was it made people focus less on his art and more on his antics.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:20 / 08.11.05
when I was posting in Gen speak initially it wasn't to annoy, I just wanted my words to stand out from the rabble so more people would read them and notice me

I see this kind of gimmick a fair bit and it I'm afraid it impresses me less every time. I've heard the arguement that the medium is the message, the Gen-speak or l33t-speak or whatever is there to challenge the reader, if the message of the post were put into plain English it would be lost... sorry, bollocks.

If you want to stand out, be outstanding. Have something to say, and say it plainly. Don't try to package your ideas in fancy jargon--have the courage to unpackage them, strip them naked.

However, after a bit of time I eventually posted my occult views on this place, which drew the mockery of most of the people there, most of 'em being atheists and all.

If most of them were atheists (I presume you're including a general scepticism when you use this term, since being an atheist does not necessarily mean you can't hold beliefs relating to 'the occult'), why did you post your occult views there? Were they relevant to some particular discussion? If not, you're kind of setting yourself up for a roasting, really. I mean, I'm up to my eyeballs in the woo-woo stuff but I keep it for the appropriate fora, unless a related topic comes up elsewhere. (Anyhow, if you're planning to stick with the magics, pisstaking is an occupational hazard. Suck it up, Buttercup.)

I will say that I agree with etruscan that there is a certain thrill about goading people on (a sick thrill, but a thrill nonetheless).

The problem with this is that, well, you are actually dealing with people. You know, emotional responses, feelings, capacity for psychological discomfort, ect. Anger and frustration aren't fun emotions, unless you're wired funny. Is it really okay to deliberately generate those emotions in someone wholly or mostly for kicks and giggles? If someone decided they were going to goad you into an anger response on a regular basis, I'm pretty sure you'd begin to feel a bit put-upon.
 
 
Ganesh
07:42 / 08.11.05
Interesting combination of angry, passive-aggressive 'this board twists my words' petulance and recrimination, followed by retrospective reframing of one's actions as "antics" which one "enjoyed" (with ludicrous comparison to, for fuck's sake, Salvador Dali). Makes one even less likely to take subsequent statements of emotional sincerity seriously, hm?

One of the problems with trolling behaviour, however, on both sides, is the question of intent. We've struggled with this many times before. By definition, a troll is someone who posts in a certain way for certain reasons - but, without the benefit of long-range telepathy, an observer has no way of divining those reasons and, as Sypha demonstrates, the individual doing the trolling may lack consistency in the way they perceive/characterise their own motives. There's always going to be a degree of assumption on the part of the observer(s), that [Behaviour X] is definitely trolling or, as incidents accumulate, [Poster X] is definitely a troll. There'll always be those who disagree, either because they weren't aware of or present for Poster X's first round(s) of Behaviour X, or because they differ in terms of how they, personally, gauge trolling behaviour.
 
 
--
13:32 / 08.11.05
Actually, Ganesh, my post up there was mostly in jest. Fuck, the whole thing about me saying that most trolls are concerned only with themselves followed by "using myself as an example" was a fairly obvious give away. It wasn't really meant to be "emotionally sincere".

Mordant, I was pretty young around the time of the whole Gen speak thing, and I probably had odd notions of language and presentation at the time, being immersed in Burroughs as I was. I gave it up when I realized it was fairly unoriginal, not to mention it made posting a real chore, changing all those letters.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:26 / 08.11.05
Actually, Ganesh, my post up there was mostly in jest.

Really? Because it doesn't read that way. It reads more like an attept to explain/defend your behavior; behavior which, let's remember, has generated a certain amount of resentment towards you from people who'd previously put a lot of effort into trying to help you find solutions to the problems you often mention here on the board. Do you really want to keep on alienating those people who are still reasonably well disposed to you?

Also, when making posts "in jest" it might be a good idea to avoid posting material that could be construed as a passive-aggressive attack. In fact, writing lengthy posts on the subject of trolling "in jest" should probably be avoided on a board where one is veiwed by many as not too far off being a troll oneself. A more cautious approach favouring courtesy and attempting to enhance one's signal-to-noise ratio is likely to get a better response than rambling posts on how misunderstood one is. When your copybook is blotted, the answer is seldom "more ink."
 
 
electric monk
14:38 / 08.11.05
Further, I'm fairly sure that Policy is NOT the place to do ANYTHING in jest.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:54 / 08.11.05
Well, there is a precedent for cheese puns. But yeah.
 
 
---
15:37 / 08.11.05
I've trolled a little in the past for the hell of it, (at other sites) but it's usually been over pretty quickly because I never wanted it to last too long. (out of a lack of patience for angry responses)

If you notice a lot of them, you'll usually find that most of the post isn't that bad sometimes, but there's always a bit that leaves you wondering if they're taking the piss or not. I think that's usually deliberate, like a game to see how many people notice what they're doing. I'm pretty sure that it's often done for the laugh of it and the wind up aspect aswell. Maybe it is more attention seeking for some though. The attention seeking would probably play a bigger part if no-one noticed the game being played, because obviously without people latching onto it it doesn't work.

As for people that troll messageboards over a long period of time and try their hardest to be taken seriously, I don't think I understand that. Maybe that's where attention seeking is more involved.

Ganesh, have you thought about people who just feel generally screwed over by life and see the sites they troll at as their way of getting their own back at the world? Maybe there's something in that, because when you get people that randomly troll maybe they feel like they're hitting back at the world that's fucked them over or something, and the more they have that mindset the more randomly they attack each and every site that they come across. Then when it's more focused, maybe they're just annoying/attacking groups that they don't respect/share the same views as, etc. Maybe you have the whole stealth/infiltration aspect aswell as they get totally carried away with what they're doing, and surely a load more wierdness where that comes from.

In writing this I'm starting to realize just how many different types of trolls there could be. You could have a huge variety of motives/reasons for trolling and a lot of different styles of troll. I don't think it's something that can be narrowed down to just one or two types either.
 
 
Ganesh
18:43 / 08.11.05
Actually, Ganesh, my post up there was mostly in jest.

Hang on while I reach for my spare asthma inhaler, then. All this hilarity's making me quite breathless.

Fuck, the whole thing about me saying that most trolls are concerned only with themselves followed by "using myself as an example" was a fairly obvious give away. It wasn't really meant to be "emotionally sincere".

In that case, it was perhaps the least funny "jest" since Shakespeare. What it does come across as is you attempting to reframe an episode which irritated many as "antics" - and, oddly enough, you appear to be doing the same again ie. it was a JOKE!!1!!! etc. Frankly, I don't believe you. I believe this is just another way of letting yourself off the hook, attempting to evade responsibility for your own crappy behaviour: claim it was all a JOKE!!1!!!, then claim the post in which you claimed it was a JOKE!!1!!! was itself a JOKE!!1!!! It's all just more ways of talking about yourself, Sypha. Boring.

And yes, just when I thought you couldn't undermine your own credibility any further, you prove me wrong.
 
  

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