BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Policy & Help >

The Psychology Of Trolling

  
  

Page: 1(2)34567

 
 
Ganesh
19:18 / 01.11.05
Am I baiting you? I don't think so. As for how I'd go about 'combatting' (what I see as) the twisting of Said's model, I'd suggest that those who are interested in more than conflict/impact/attention tend to contribute posts in other spheres of discussion. When someone's being labelled 'troll' or 'trolling', I generally take time to sift through their contributions to see whether they're capable of or interested in other modes of engagement.

I haven't gone looking for your posts, Calvin. If I did so, what approximate percentage do you reckon might broadly be perceived as 'trolling'?
 
 
grim reader
19:43 / 01.11.05
Just to clarify ... are you saying *I'm* twisting Said, or are you talking about a hypothetical troll twisting it? If the former, I would acknowledge I'm certainly being very simplistic and cutting a lot of the details (I'm assuming a fair number of barbelite are either already familiar with Said, or know how to become so should they care to engage in the discussion), and I also acknowledge Haus's comments that the feedback model is more complicated than I am presenting it as ... but if you're saying I'm twisting it, please let me know how, because if thats the case i obviously, in the interests of intellectual honesty and rigour, need to address it.

Could you tell me how the % question on my posting is relevant or helpful? I won't answer the question, but i would invite someone a bit more on the ball than myself (Haus?) to do so should you feel it is necessary.

This sort of question reinforces my idea of troll hunting being analagous to witch hunting. I would much prefer you were to address my ideas and arguments than start digging up dirt on me (because thats what it feels like you're trying to do here).

Erm, one more thing before i hit the 'post' button. I wanted to come back on your comments about an "I am teh victim" attitude being used to defend a troll. Again, this may be in your back catalogue of troll tactics, but that doesnt mean everyone who uses it is a troll. This is barbelith's major fault imho, and until overreaction to percieved racism/trolling is reigned in somewhat, barbelith will continue to ask itself 'whats wrong with barbelith?' Bear in mind, that question is never adequately addressed because most of the people who could answer it have fucked off cos they felt this was a hostile environment. Luckily for you, I'm a bit more bloody minded than most, so you still get the benefit of my insights
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:48 / 01.11.05
And, Haus, off-board there are a number of us who have toyed with the idea that your own behaviour sets you apart as something of a troll yourself.

Ah - and now you've accused me of being a troll, which means: if you label someone a troll, and address them as such, it isnt a surprise if you observe 'trollish' behaviour in return - especially when your catalogue of 'trollish' behaviour could well be based on the reactions of people who never had any intention of trolling.

Tricky - you're assuming, I think, that the term is not justified unless you or somebody you trust is applying it. However, to an extent, there is a quasi-democratic standard to these issues - x number of people, for example, call me a troll in conversations with each other, whereas y number of people do not call me a troll, and I am pretty confident that the numbers and the characters of the set y are greater. However, here's another useful bit here from the toolbox - so far we've had the idea that people who identify others as trolls are themselves trolling (which may well be relevant, but not complete), and that there is a silent group who believe that people who identify others as trolls are themselves trolls. These are both quite common positions.
 
 
grim reader
20:00 / 01.11.05
ok, perhaps i've made an ill advised move there, haus...altho, i did state i think you are posting in good faith...i think my main point is, it isnt nice to be called a troll.
 
 
grim reader
20:03 / 01.11.05
also, i'm not sure the term is justifiable at all! I don't like it, think it's lazy, and causes more trouble than it's worth.
 
 
Ganesh
20:06 / 01.11.05
Just to clarify ... are you saying *I'm* twisting Said, or are you talking about a hypothetical troll twisting it?

That rather depends whether you're seriously advancing the 'call someone a troll and they'll become more trollsome' thing (which I do consider a twisting of Said) yourself, as a general explanation of trolling (which is, after all, the subject of this thread) or whether you're suggesting it's a position a "hypothetical troll" might adopt.

Could you tell me how the % question on my posting is relevant or helpful?

In the same way as the "are you baiting me, Ganesh" question is relevant/helpful, I guess ie. not very, other than as a possible way of playing Who's (Likely To Be) Trolling Who?

Outwith the specific case of you yourself, Calvin, I think it's relevant to the subject matter in that it's a possible counter to the suggestion (TwistySaid) that trolls are essentially created by a witch-hunt atmosphere. In the absence of remote telepathy, looking at someone's past contributions is one way of assessing the likelihood of their current comments being primarily motivated by the urge to initiate or stir aggro. If, for example, someone's contribution to the board is almost entirely characterised by material resulting in thread-locking, etc., then I'd suggest that witch-hunt followed trolling.

This sort of question reinforces my idea of troll hunting being analagous to witch hunting. I would much prefer you were to address my ideas and arguments than start digging up dirt on me (because thats what it feels like you're trying to do here).

As I've pointed out, I haven't carried out a search of your posts at all. Other than the infamous "wogs" one, I've little recollection of them.

Erm, one more thing before i hit the 'post' button. I wanted to come back on your comments about an "I am teh victim" attitude being used to defend a troll. Again, this may be in your back catalogue of troll tactics, but that doesnt mean everyone who uses it is a troll.

Agreed.

This is barbelith's major fault imho, and until overreaction to percieved racism/trolling is reigned in somewhat, barbelith will continue to ask itself 'whats wrong with barbelith?' Bear in mind, that question is never adequately addressed because most of the people who could answer it have fucked off cos they felt this was a hostile environment. Luckily for you, I'm a bit more bloody minded than most, so you still get the benefit of my insights

I'm pretty glad that Barbelith does continue to ask itself 'what's wrong with Barbelith' - although I'm not sure that'd it'd necessarily be 'answered' by those who've left the board. I'm sure they'd have an opinion, but I doubt it'd be an 'answer' any more than the opinions of those who're still here. Ditto "overreaction" and "hostile".
 
 
grim reader
20:18 / 01.11.05
Heh, i really need to drag myself away from the board, but this is getting quite involving.

Ganesh, i dont think i ever said people accused of being trolls wold become more trollsome. I said (or meant to say) people who make the accusations will naturally look for and conflate the evidence that the accusee is a troll. That, iirc, is the essence of Said's argument on (what i think is called) 'textual attitude'.

i accept the 'are you baiting me' question might not seem helpful/relevant - i was genuine in wondering whether you were trying to bait me in a troll-like manner. Lets sweep it aside, you're right, it probably isnt helpful here.

In the last bit, re: barbefaults, i feel you're picking at my words a bit rather than looking at the spirit of what i'm saying. Do you really believe people who have left the board in anger and frustration at a (percieved or otherwise) hostile reaction have nothing valuable to teach us/you? (Never sure whether to include myself in the 'Barbe-Us'.)
 
 
Ganesh
20:30 / 01.11.05
Okay. I took your statement that those looking for it would "observe trollish behaviour in return" as the suggestion that the observer somehow caused the positive feedback loop - which would indeed be a twisting of Said's model. If you're merely saying 'if you look hard enough for something you'll find it', then I apologise for misunderstanding your gist. I thought you were advancing the supposition that being accused of trolling in itself created trollish behaviour, a sort of 'well, if you're going to call me X then I might as well be X' effect.

No, I didn't say that people who've left the board "have nothing to teach us/you". I said they don't necessarily possess the 'answer' to the question 'what's wrong with Barbelith'. An answer, certainly, in the sense that they very likely have as strong an opinion as those remaining on the board. Not the answer, though, I wouldn't have thought.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:46 / 01.11.05
Generally, we equate racist language with attention-seeking on Barbelith, because the only people who repeatedly use racist language appear to be doing it for no better reason than to gain attention, which is ultimately where we're deriving "troll" - from a fishing technique. Generally, I think Cass put the response to this particular case very well here, and Nightclub Dwight addressed the more general issue, also very well, here.

So, what we have here is reciprocity:

1) Those who accuse others of trolling are in fact trolling.
2) Those who publicly identify trolls are privately identified as trolls.
3) Those who express concerns about how trollish behaviour forces people off Internet boards are in fact forcing people off Internet discussion boards.

At which point, maybe the binary of troll and non-troll disappears, and the concept of "trolling" becomes instead a way of level-setting - in a particular environment, a level of acceptable behaviour is constructed within the environment and within each participant within the environment, and "troll" is a sort of histamine reaction to behaviour that appears unacceptable within the environment or to the invdividual. Individual reactive levels vary, but a consensus largely emerges - at one edge of that people might complain about behaviour generally seen as acceptable, at the other people might argue for the acceptance of behaviour seen generally as unacceptable.At either extreme, they become identified with the behaviours they attack or defend.

Having said which, I'm pretty confident that the answer to the question "What's wrong with Barbelith" is "not enough racial epithets".

So, different tack. You think it is not nice to be called a troll, and you believe that the term is lazy and causes more trouble than it's worth. So, what exactly was going through your mind and your friends' minds when you apparently decided that I was one?
 
 
grim reader
20:46 / 01.11.05
Ganesh, thanks for clarifying.

I think i'm still right in saying you're missing my point by focussing on my words rather than the spirit of what i'm putting across, and you've just done the same thing by continuing to niggle at the word 'answer'. I know you didn't say they have nothing to teach us, sorry for putting words in your mouth. But it seems to me that a key part of answering the 'whats wrong with barbelith' question is missing as long as those people feel unwelcome. Chicken and egg, i guess, but i hope my own involvement spans the gap, if only a little, because i could so easily have just left barbelith and given up on it altogether.

I want to come back on the Said thing at some later date, as i think you're incorrect saying the observer cannot cause the feedback (for a start, what about situations where there would be no feedback if the observer hadnt got involved?) I will, however, come back to this when i've had a bit more time to consider this, and hopefully i will find my copy of Orientalism so i can refer to what Ed said himself (get it? Ed said, Edward Said? haha. oh, nevermind.)
 
 
Ganesh
21:07 / 01.11.05
I think i'm still right in saying you're missing my point by focussing on my words rather than the spirit of what i'm putting across, and you've just done the same thing by continuing to niggle at the word 'answer'.

I disagree. Words are our means of communication here, and I'd argue that I'm at least taking issue with the words you did write. You suggested that those no longer on-board might possess "the answer" to the question 'what's wrong with Barbelith'. In agreeing that they might well have an opinion, like anyone else, I believe I am agreeing with (what I perceive to be) the spirit of what you're saying.

But it seems to me that a key part of answering the 'whats wrong with barbelith' question is missing as long as those people feel unwelcome. Chicken and egg, i guess, but i hope my own involvement spans the gap, if only a little, because i could so easily have just left barbelith and given up on it altogether.

Equally, the opinions of those who left because they got bored or because they got pissed off with the racial epithets or because they didn't like the colour scheme are also missing. I don't particularly think there's a gap to be spanned here: the opinions of those who left the board for Reason X are no more "key" than the opinions of those who left for Reason Y or Z.

I want to come back on the Said thing at some later date, as i think you're incorrect saying the observer cannot cause the feedback (for a start, what about situations where there would be no feedback if the observer hadnt got involved?)

I'm not sure that I said the observer cannot cause the trolling feedback loop. I'm sure being accused of trolling can aggravate things and, with a certain personality type, cause someone to respond by cranking up the behaviour which brought about the accusation in the first place. I'd argue, however, that individuals who predominantly respond to criticism in this manner have a propensity to troll anyway. Of course, it's all relative: if someone's also demonstrated a capacity and willingness to engage in modes of discussion other than troll ---> get accused of trolling ---> troll more intensively, then it's perhaps more possibly that they're simply having a bad day. If this appears to be their primary way of interacting, I'd say it's likely that they're at fault rather than the observer - hence my 'percentage of total posts' method.
 
 
robertrosen
00:21 / 02.11.05
Trolling used properly, without hurtful intent, could play a positive role.

For many years playing devils advocate, attempting to shoot holes or approach from strange entry points, has usually raised the bar, generally speaking. I believe it strengthens the existing position, weakens it or sheds new light.

If the intent is to generate thought for a positive outcome, is it still considered trolling? A good debate always seems to serve a positive purpose.
 
 
Ganesh
06:17 / 02.11.05
I'd say it depends whether playing devil's advocate, etc. is all someone does - and also how they go about it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:43 / 02.11.05
Could whoever moved to send this to Policy and Help PM me explaining why they proposed/agreed the action?
 
 
OJ
09:09 / 02.11.05
Analyzing someone for buttons, then carefully pressing them, can also be challenging as fuck. While people tend to fall into certain categories -- with broad, generalized buttons -- everyone is different, and it can take a gentle touch and canny wits to unearth that little something that will really set someone off. We're talking about seriously honing mental muscles that don't otherwise get much use.

This is a very interesting discussion and I particularly appreciate Etruscan's honesty about his/her motives for trolling. It confirms what I've always suspected about trolls and also about bullies in general. (I'm talking about my experiences of trolls in a wider sense, not a Barbelith specific sense as I'm pretty much a newbie/lurker/occasional poster here).

But I wonder - is there a tension between the assumption that seems to be made about trolls as outsiders, disrupting a community/society and this modus operandum of picking off individuals, which to me seems to be pretty much akin to bullying? Do people think this is part of the same behaviour, or two different things entirely?

In my very subjective experience over the years, people who act in the sadistic way Etruscan describes, tend to operate by picking off those people they think are vulnerable, either because they're in some sort of minority, are new, have revealed personal vulnerabilities etc. I don't recognise that as being the same as the "disruptive" trolling at all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:22 / 02.11.05
For many years playing devils advocate, attempting to shoot holes or approach from strange entry points, has usually raised the bar, generally speaking. I believe it strengthens the existing position, weakens it or sheds new light.


And that continues to be the case. However, playing devil's advocate is not the same as trolling. As mentioned above, trolling is a metaphor taken from fishing, and one of the characteristic elements of it is that the attention received from whatever the troll is posting is more important than the relationship of what the troll is posting to the rest of the thread. You do also get what I tend to call "de facto trolls" - that is, people who are probably as eager as the next man to discuss the issues in the thread, but for some reason are unable to do so, or unable to do so in a way that does not derail the thread. This is often due to passionately-held beliefs about the topic, or about a different topic that they are sidetracked onto talking about within a thread unrelated to it, or simple difficulties with reading or writing. These are characterised often by being focused on certain specific areas, and on occasion to susceptibility to reasoning.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:31 / 02.11.05
Do you really believe people who have left the board in anger and frustration at a (percieved or otherwise) hostile reaction have nothing valuable to teach us/you?

Who did you have in mind? I can think of many people who have left the board or post here minimally who have valuable things to teach the majority of people who still post here regularly.

But let's get one thing clear. I can categorically state that every single person who ever left Barbelith because they thought it was "too PC" or that it "overreacted" to racist, sexist or homophobic language did the board a favour the day they left. Was that the best case scenario? No: that would have been them taking on board other people's opinions on the subject. But if they can't do that, then better they go elsewhere.
 
 
Quantum
10:06 / 02.11.05
if you label someone a troll, and address them as such, it isnt a surprise if you observe 'trollish' behaviour in return calvin

Weighing in late, I think that's crap. If someone accused me of trolling I'd be mortified, and scrupulously analyse every post for signs of snippiness or goading. Rather than reacting by aggravating the problem with a petulant backlash, which often occurs.
I am reminded (again) of the Racist Bogey- being accused of trollish behaviour (a temporary state) is distinct from being accused of being a troll (a permanent label).

I *did*, in fact, give an account of myself which explained, beyond 'shocking' people, why i don't feel particularly bad about having used the term 'wog'

I think I'll go and plough through the thread then, because I can't see any reason you shouldn't feel bad for using an offensive term like that. I'm pretty sure it would go on the hatespeech List if one is ever devised.

(Why *is* this thread here? can we return it to the Headshop?)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:21 / 02.11.05
The thread is here because, if it ever was a Head Shop thread, it has now become another discussion about how Barbelith deals with obnoxious idiots.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:39 / 02.11.05
And I agreed it because I think Flyboy is right. It reads like a Policy thread to me.
 
 
Smoothly
15:04 / 02.11.05
Shame. Cos the original question was an interesting one. Couldn’t a Head Shop mod have steered it back on course?
I’m sure there’s some interesting stuff on how the War On Trolling might relate to the War On Terror tucked away in this topic somewhere.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:05 / 02.11.05
Yeah, Policy thread definitely, seeing as the argument's now come out of the absrtract deimension.

I can categorically state that every single person who ever left Barbelith because they thought it was "too PC" or that it "overreacted" to racist, sexist or homophobic language did the board a favour the day they left. Was that the best case scenario? No: that would have been them taking on board other people's opinions on the subject. But if they can't do that, then better they go elsewhere.

I agree strongly with this.
 
 
robertrosen
21:42 / 02.11.05
The old mill Haus

You described me quite perfectly. I am therefore a Troll. I assure you I was attempting to make a positive contribution, although for a totally selfish reason. I guess my obsession reaches out in many directions.

I will attempt, with all sincerity, to stop trolling.

Thank you all for the enlightenment.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:48 / 02.11.05
For reference, that was not in any way my intention.
 
 
robertrosen
22:11 / 02.11.05
Haus, an amazing coincidence. Your description was so close.

Even if it were intentional, I would not be offended. I look at it as a learning experience.
 
 
grim reader
13:07 / 03.11.05
somone said:
(Why *is* this thread here? can we return it to the Headshop?)

hear hear, i preferred it when i had the feeling i was having an informal chat. Now it's in policy, I don't feel quite so comfortable posting. Plus, it took me a while to figure out where the thread had gone.
 
 
grim reader
13:21 / 03.11.05
By the way, thanks for engaging with me on this thread, Ganesh and Haus particularly, both of whom had me glued to the board for a night. I'm not sure i can add much more of use to what has gone before without repeating myself, but this thread has certainly made me understand others' perspective a bit more. I'm not sure i can claim to have made others understand my own position any more, though, and i kind of resent continued efforts to pick over an argument which generated a lot of bad feeling and took place years ago.

I will say I concur with this observation by Smoothly Weaving:
I’m sure there’s some interesting stuff on how the War On Trolling might relate to the War On Terror tucked away in this topic somewhere.
 
 
grim reader
13:31 / 03.11.05
Also, out of interest, (after reading Pete Shafto's remarks which Legba agrees with), I wonder whether Psionic Nurse ever returned to the board following the thread i referenced earlier in this discussion? Because, while you might have a point dealing with me and the 'wog' comment, her treatment really showed up the worst of Barbelith, and i don't think hounding her off the board did the place any favours.

Please let me know if she's still about...i tried using the barbe-google search method, and it doesn't seem like she bothered much after having her writing called 'shit', etc, which, imho, is a worse offense than repeating a joke off the simpsons. Perhaps this will give those of you with such an entrenched opposition to any hint of racialised language pause for thought. Then again, perhaps not, perhaps you feel you've done us all a favour by making this place hostile for her.

Well, so much for not having much else to add to the discussion...i await your responses.
 
 
Ganesh
13:48 / 03.11.05
Calvin, it's certainly possible to go back over the PsionicNurse thing (at least partly because I think summarising it as someone having been "hounded off the board" is simplistic and one-sided in its implications) but, having expressed your own dissatisfaction with having one old argument revived and 'picked over', what would be the rationale for digging up another?
 
 
Spaniel
13:49 / 03.11.05
The Headshop isn't for informal chats.

On the subject of "Smiling Friends" (I'm assuming you were referring to Smiling Friends, Haus), at least one of the perpetrators involved was a respected member of the board for a long time before that particular event. In light of the narrative described by Haus, I'm beginning to think that the trollery carried out by that particular board member may have been in response to somehow feeling disengaged with the board - the trolling, was, at least in part, an acting out of the emotions associated with that feeling of disengagement.
So, at least in that case, the act of trolling wasn't simply a step before a more meaningful engagement with the board, it was a step before a reengagement.

So then, in that case it appears possible (but by no means certain) that the act of trolling in question *could* have been in response to changes in the board (amongst other things). I think that's interesting.
 
 
grim reader
13:50 / 03.11.05
ok, point, feel free to keep picking over my old arguments. but i'd like to see what i've just posted addressed.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:52 / 03.11.05
Psionic Nurse, lest we forget, said that "all gypsies inherently... smell of cabbage" and "none of them know how to use a computer". Psionic Nurse vigorously defended hir right to make such statements without apologising, and was even sarcastic about the constructive suggestion made by Nina Skyrty (then Anna).

perhaps you feel you've done us all a favour by making this place hostile for her

Yep.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:58 / 03.11.05
Oh, feel free to unpack the specious, offensive, human-suffering-trivialising "War on Trolling is like War on Terror! When you object to fuckwittery you build a Guantanamo in your heart!" bullshit any time you like, anyone who buys it for a second.
 
 
grim reader
14:05 / 03.11.05
Petey Shaftoe, this is helpful how? I think you're possibly misunderstanding the 'war on terror' point, or maybe i am, but in any case, you're misunderstanding *my* take on it. And you're hardly encouraging a climate of intelligent debate here.
 
 
grim reader
14:11 / 03.11.05
what gets me is that you seem surprised that calling someone a fuckwit and their writing 'turd' and shit and lots of other fecal metaphors didn't prompt an intelligent self assessment from that postee. Well, duh.
 
  

Page: 1(2)34567

 
  
Add Your Reply