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Paty Cockrum accuses Grant Morrison and others of anti-Semitism

 
  

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diz
22:36 / 21.10.05
Joey the Q apparently got his nose outta joint when Arad stormed into the Marvel offices after Grant Morrison’s abortion Planet X hit the stands, totally trashing Magneto’s characterization, which, based on Chris Claremont’s 1980s depiction of a complex, driven adversary who had honor and intelligence (and was actually right in many of his arguments) and demanded that the characters be returned to their heroic origins! In typical racist form, Morrison had taken a character and made him so vile that he supposed that Magneto fans would flee the character for good. I mean… if Magneto had to be Jewish, they were gonna make him as vile as they possibly could by turning him into the very thing he hated… a crematoria-building, innocents-burning monster.

It goes on. Here and here.

I don't even really know where to put this. First of all, some of her facts seem to be, shall we say... off. Planet X and the rest of GM's NXM run outsold the shit out of the most recent Excalibur incarnation or Claremont's XXM and UXM, so I'm not sure where she gets this "the fans rallied around Claremont" nonsense from.

Also, this is the picture of Paty Cockrum that accompanies the story:



How does one respond to a person like this?
 
 
sleazenation
23:08 / 21.10.05
I can see an answer here that involves schizoprhenics and processing metaphors
 
 
Spaniel
23:14 / 21.10.05
Diz, how the fuck did you manage to dig this up?
 
 
Spaniel
23:15 / 21.10.05
I've followed the link. Now I see...
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:19 / 21.10.05
That rant turns into some story about a train and a blizzard. Are those like metaphores or something?
 
 
This Sunday
23:45 / 21.10.05
Argh! Ack! No!!!
Y'know, I read those in order, and the Shooter/Lee stuff I just ran with, but the 'Planet X' as antisemetic thing? The idea that Morrison is responsible for Millar's 'Wolverine' and Millar for Bendis' 'Avengers'? The fuck?
Again... the fuck?
Magneto is a villain. He is and almost always has been, a bad person who does bad things because he is personally and perhaps irrevocably fucked up. He's not a villain because he's Jewish - and I like the Sinte thing better, anyway, because I loathe Jewish = Holocaust = Jewish thinking - but he is, as far as some stories are concerned, a villain. Who is Jewish. Maybe. Unless he was lying.
Is Lex Luthor a villain because he's white? Is he in fact a 'white villain'? Save us from 'Cracker Luthor: The Man' when it's released next year. Actually, no, I'd like to see that book.
Sorry.
BTW, when did Paty Cockrum draw 'ElfQuest'? Was this the anthology-o-many-artists?
I mean, this isn't legit, is it? Has Dave Cockrum appeared to have gone off the deep-end, too?
 
 
diz
23:57 / 21.10.05
I wouldn't know. I haven't been boning up on my Questing Beast literature.

But, OK, to mine this weirdness for some possible discussion value:

There seem to be two different schools of thought on how to portray Magneto. Claremont writes him as a semi-cuddly urbane guy with some passionately held political views which should be taken seriously. Grant Morrison and others have contended that his personal intelligence and gravitas can't really gloss over the fact that he's basically a racist terrorist and would-be dictator, and that his approach is not acceptable.

Basically, Claremont treats him as something between a fellow traveller and a friendly rival, whereas Morrison treated him as a villain.

The debate on the relative merits of these two approaches has been had a number of times on this forum, but let's take Paty Cockrum's allegations seriously for just a minute and ask: how does Magneto's ethnic background play into the debate? How should it be taken into account?

Should we avoid the "Magneto's a psycho supervillain" approach out of sensitivity to the situation of Holocaust survivors? Parallels have been drawn between Magneto and Israeli ultra-Zionists before, in that they both use past victimization to justify a separatist ideology and methods critics consider extreme. How does criticizing Magneto relate to criticizing Zionism or the State of Israel?

Does one's position on the appropriate treatment of Magneto as a character have implications for real-life political issues, from race relations to Zionism?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:03 / 22.10.05
How can anything involving Magneto be anti-semetic when he's not Jewish?

I are confused. Claremeont made him a gypsy and he's been a gypsy for a good 15-20 years.
 
 
diz
00:50 / 22.10.05
How can anything involving Magneto be anti-semetic when he's not Jewish?

I are confused. Claremeont made him a gypsy and he's been a gypsy for a good 15-20 years.


May I present to you... the Magneto is Jewish FAQ
 
 
Slim
01:57 / 22.10.05
I'm someone that didn't like Morrison's handling of certain X-Men characters but I find it hard to believe that he's anti-semetic or that there's some kind of conspiracy going on at Marvel.
 
 
Neville Barker
06:18 / 22.10.05
I can only say that I am completely amazed at this. As someone else just asked, is this for real??? I mean, when I scrolled down and saw that accompanying picture... I laughed out loud. But then to read the links as well, this Paty is clearly 1. unable to let go of 'the good ol' days' at Marvel that she had a part of and plenty of fond memories of. Like the almamater that returns to his high school for a 20 yr. reunion and finds they have renamed the football team and taken down the paintings he once won first place at the art fair with. "Why have I been left behind". And the picture just enhances that with its quasi-old age-dementia undertone.
And is this paty what I like to call a right-wing christian-nazi (adult and modern themes like gay mutants or actually treating a marvel villian like a VILLIAN and having them do something a little stronger than leaving a turd on Xavier's pillow case makes these kind of people nervous the children of their world will grow up genderless and more than willing to break into their homes, tie them up and break all of their Eagles records while yelling 'Let Jesus Fuck You!'). It occurrs to me that in the same reaching way she has interpreted facts to arrive at her conspiracy theory one could interpret her remarks about Brit-Scots aristocracy and the like as evidence of her anti-any white people but AMERICAN white people agenda. So There!!!
But really I still can't believe this. How funny, reminds me of that 'masturbation is murder' website.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:24 / 22.10.05
That "Magneto is Jewish" FAQ is pretty interesting, but its underlying problem lies between these two entries:

--Vision and the Scarlet Witch, Vol. 1, #4. Magneto has just found out Wanda and Pietro are his children. (This is from Feb. 1983). He is on the moon, in the Inhuman city of Attilan, telling VIsion about his youth.

--The Jews, the lowest of the low to the Nazis, in Auschwitz hierarchy, followed by the Russians, and then the Gypsies, the Jews would be the ones to lead the victims to the gas chamber, to haul the bodies from the gas chambers to the ovens, to burn and bury the dead. The Jews would pull the teeth of the corpses, cut the hair, pile the bodies three at a time on the retorts of the ovens in just the right way. The Sonderkommando had a few kapos (overseers) who were German and Polish prisoners, criminals from civil prisons in Germany and Poland. During the summer of 1944, 19 Russian POWs from Mauthausen were sent to augment the Auschwitz Sonderkommando. Totally documented, on paper and by eye witness accounts.

You're applying historical record to someone who hangs out in a city on the moon. It's an impressive exercise, but it's not really going to add up because the fiction is inconsistent.
 
 
Jack Fear
10:44 / 22.10.05
Paty Cockrum is a prime example of the damage wrought to the superhero genre by the 1970s rise of the fan-turned-pro.

These are people who moved seamlessly from their teenaged love of superhero and their fanzine work directly into pro careers—people who've never worked a "real" job, in a word. people who talk seriously of things like "canon."

And there's something broken inside them; they're lacking the ability to distance oneself that is vital for a creative person. They're so emotionally attached to the characters that they can't bring themselves to do much of anything with them.

And so you get Chris Claremont writing long stretches of comics that are basically about how much the X-Men all love & respect each other so damned much, played out over a backdrop of featureless, disposable villains.

And so you get John Byrne proclaiming consistency to be the highest virtue in superhero comics, and complaining that anybody whodares to write an interesting superhero story (e.g. Grant Morrison, or the creators of The Incredibles) "hates superheroes."

And you get Paty Cockrum defending the honor of a fictional person from the slanders of the a writer who is, after all, just the latest in a long line of caretakers to the property—just as she herself was but one in a line.

I don't care how old she is—Paty Cockrum needs to grow up and accept the harsh truths of corporate franchise comics and their business model.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:31 / 22.10.05
I did always wonder whether Claremont's development of Magneto (over a period of time roughly equivelent to the whole Maddie Pryor saga) was due to him feeling uneasy having a character who was Jewish spouting Nazi-Mutants are the superior beings-ubermensch guff. But to accuse everyone who's worked on him since of Anti-Semitism is just taking huge swigs from the crazy bottle. But then it seems that her entire thesis is spun from looking at the clander and hearing Joss say that no-one in Marvel was told what was going on with House of M. If she has a problem, why is she expressing it now (wasn't there are story that came up in either Lying in the Gutters or All The Rage about her husband being screwed over in some way by Marvel, hmmm?), and not some twenty years ago when Magneto turned villainous again in that unremarkable crossover where (IIRC) Loki got all the villains to fight different superhero teams than normal in the hopes that they'd win with the element of surprise? I seem to remember that Magneto had to fight the Fantastic Four or Spiderman, not someone who he might have an advantage over, like Iron Man.

Blaming Joe Quesada and Grant Morrison for Magneto being evil is to ignore pioneering work done by those such as Fabian Nicieza, as part of a general Marvel-wide policy of making the villains villainous again, this all happening at around the same time that lines became franchises and these frnachises looked set to become films so creativity had to be limited to not alienate the zillions of people that were supposedly going to start buying the comic books because of seeing the movie.

It's a shame that Paty knows that Joss Whedon is writing Astonishing X-Men, 'blew the deal' on House of M, wrote Buffy, but doesn't know about what happened when Joss killed of Tara, and his response to those who said he shouldn't have killed the lesbian.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:31 / 22.10.05
She also spells her name with one 't'. That's just wrong.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
13:58 / 22.10.05
Dr. Graves pointed to the core issue with surgical precision.

re: Morrison being responsible for some other books' basic plots: there's a strange rumour about large parts of ULTIMATES v1 being something GM came up with and handed over to Millar before their Authority "situation".

but the madness of this columns completely destroys any of Ms. Cockrum's credibility...
 
 
Aertho
14:29 / 22.10.05
Fans waited with bated breath… but subterfuge was afoot. The FACE schmucks couldn’t stand the freakin’ Jew being so popular!

I haven't seen such drama and pathos since the Junior High lunchroom.
 
 
Mark Parsons
18:53 / 22.10.05
Well obviously, RE Mags' return to shouty, spittle-spraying villainous behavior, IT WAS THE DRUGS TALKING. Yes, drugs children. Stay away from them lest ye become as Magnus and loose all your good karma points on one fell earth conquering swoop...

Bet he felt like a prat in the morning. "No more Kick binges for me. Ever."
 
 
TroyJ15
23:20 / 22.10.05
hahah hahah hahah hahah hahahah hahhahah!

This the most retarded thing ever! She is old, talking in certainties, and on the internet! 3 signs that this lady is out of her f@cking mind! LOL!
 
 
Mark Parsons
03:20 / 23.10.05
Pati may have some, er, odd ideas, but her hubbins almost died recently and I imagine they've not been well compensated for Dave's huge contributions to New X-Men and Legion of Superheroes, so perhaps she's a little angry. I'm more than willing to cut her some slack here.
 
 
This Sunday
04:43 / 23.10.05
In defense of the picture with the Maggie helmet: Who here hasn't (a) worn something rather embarrassing, and (b) been absurdly proud of it, at least in some circles and under certain conditions? I spent most of yesterday in nothing but old sweatpants and a black leather vest - much to the amusement of an unexpected visitor. I have friends who've cosplayed as Pikachu, Enigma, and Bolt Crank; know a woman who enjoys dressing up in her Catholic School uniform, in her late twenties. I've seen the 'horrible costume' thread and notes of 'I would so wear that' and so forth.
This has got me more defensive than I thought it would. Funny, that. Think it's due to the upcoming holiday.
What gets me, is not how she looks or dresses or whatever, but what she's writing. Stress and pain and life-in-general may be a factor, but still, the Grant-I Hate Jews-Morrison thing... it's just... doesn't make sense, doesn't have any rational train of thought or evidence, doesn't make sense.
If it's dressing up that's putting people and their affects out of joint, here: Isn't there a picture of Darick Robertson as Nightcrawler? Or Wendy Pini kitted as Red Sonja?

Wonder how Mr. Astonishing Buffy the Firefly Whedon feels about his name being used to prove the antisemitism?
 
 
A
05:38 / 23.10.05
That lady doesn't know much. It wasn't Magneto who did those bad things, it was the real Xorn's evil identical twin impersonating Xorn impersonating Magneto impersonating Xorn. Jesus. It's not rocket science.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:27 / 23.10.05
Isn't there also a picture out there of Cameron Stewart dressed up as Robin for Halloween?
 
 
eddie thirteen
15:59 / 23.10.05
The difference, in re: adult costuming --

To the middle-aged woman in the Magneto helmet: "See your doctor."

To the woman in her late twenties in the Catholic school girl uniform: "See me after class."

It's a pretty clear distinction.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
17:19 / 23.10.05
That lady doesn't know much. It wasn't Magneto who did those bad things, it was the real Xorn's evil identical twin impersonating Xorn impersonating Magneto impersonating Xorn. Jesus. It's not rocket science.

What was it Mister Burns said?

"Dammit, Smithers, this isn't rocket science! Its brain surgery!"
 
 
RichJohnston
18:07 / 23.10.05
Monday's Lying In The Gutters reports on these allegations but offers an explanation for Paty's views.
 
 
Tim Tempest
21:27 / 23.10.05
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Well, there can be only one probable scenario to explain this all: A world-wide conspiracy attempting to sabotage a prominent jewish figure's credit in a blatant act of anti-semitism...

...The only catch is that the victim here happens to be a FICTIONAL COMIC BOOK CHARACTER WHO CAN BEND STEEL WITH HIS MIND. Plus he's a bad guy. He kills people. Chill the fuck out.
 
 
Tim Tempest
21:29 / 23.10.05
And Diz...Thanks for finding this article. Made my day.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
23:11 / 23.10.05
That was brilliant. I was seriously in doubt of the legitimacy of this, not knowing the writer in question, but if it's real, my God... My satirical site frequently recieves e-mail from offended surfers (mostly Oasis fans) who didn't get it, but this... I wouldn't have the nerve to print stuff like that unless I actually believed it.

Kovaks = "The Voice of Reason"

You Couldn't Make It Up -

"Why this character? Firstly, a jealousy of Claremont’s body of work that borders on obsession and mania. Secondly, a total hate of the fact that Magneto, after being revealed to have a Holocaust background, a Jewish heritage, and a huge fandom following because of this complexity of characterization, got more love and/or lust from female fandom than the pud-pullers, themselves!" - I especially like that last comma.

"The story equates victims of the Holocaust with modern day rabid American exploitation of the middle east (as viewed by the snobbish Brit/Scots aristocracy of Morrison and Millar, terpsichorean)" - terpsichorean means "of or relating to dance"; I can't make sense of that sentence at all. And as for saying "Brit/Scots" - that's the equivalent of saying US/Californian, and shows a real lack of awareness of issues outside the US, and, one suspects, the offices of Marvel.

"I am not even Jewish"! - On that, I shall stop. I could go on. I won't.

Thanks for this thread.
 
 
This Sunday
03:49 / 24.10.05
The fifth piece is actually more rational and while it doesn't backtrack over previous statements, tries to contextualize them nicely as speculation and not statement.
I still don't see Morrison's antisemitism rising up through 'Planet X', however.
I think Magneto was, in that story, pathetic in the best ways, not quite sympathetic, but perhaps, er, empathetic. Magneto is not, to my seeing, 'right in many ways' but instead, vigorously and eloquently wrong. He is also, and this is fundamental to Morrison's whole run, old. He must be excised, just as Xavier must either be excised or leave of his own choice. Because we all wanted Xorn, we wanted to make excuses for Xorn, and we don't all or even many, want to make excuses for Magneto.
I actually think Morrion's intent with many corporate comics he has taken on, is quite in line with what Paty Cockrum is championing, here. Pull out the old characters, shine them up, make them hip and exciting and new, and let them have a moment or two in the sun. The methods differ, but the intent... villains have to do bad things, or they cease to be villains and then they have no place in the dichotomy. Magneto abandons every chance for salvation he has; it's what he does. From teaching the New Mutants to running his own religion, he fucks it up because he's full of rage and hate and petty spite and big ol' ego. And he likes sinking Russian submarines and twisting Manhattan into a giant spiderwebby installation before delivering cod-Shakespearean speeches. It's what he does. So why not have him do it bigger, better, and louder than before? And then cut off his head and give him some breathing room before someone resurrects him for another battle against the X-Men?
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
07:44 / 24.10.05
I expect Rich will reprint the post that Paty apparently wrote regarding the effect of her thyroid problems on her physical and mental well-being.
 
 
Just Add Water
12:02 / 24.10.05
Sorry, that link doesn't work.
This should.

It's quite amazing reading that forum, how she refers to "asswipe Morrison" etc.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
12:54 / 24.10.05
Thank you - my net-fu is weak, it seems.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
14:30 / 24.10.05
poor woman... this is Byrne-like crazyness.

as was pointed early in the thread, this attitude comes more from a stereotypical fangirl than from a professional.

not even editors, character's original creators or company stockholders stick emotionally this much to something they don't own in the first place.

you see a reader losing it when an author makes their favourite character click in its full potential, "like in the old days", and the person just fails to see it...

this is very similar to when RPG players kill each other because "the game looked so real". Morrison likes to talk about diving into 2D worlds like an astronaut when facing super-hero universes.

sometimes one or two people don't use their exploration suit and fail to come back from those places in one piece.
 
 
Ganesh
15:41 / 24.10.05
I'm wondering about Patsy Cockring's ability to process life, let alone metaphor...
 
  

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