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Is your Journey really necessary?

  
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
 
Papess
17:53 / 12.01.07
So, your actual concern is that you are not certain if Loki is calling you, or not? I don't really understand how that could happen. If you trust Loki to act like Loki, then it only stands to reason that if it is a confusing journey, maybe even appearing senseless to you, you are certainly within His realm.

I am not certain where your issue is. That fact that He uses your own self-doubt to teach you?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:06 / 12.01.07
So, your actual concern is that you are not certain if Loki is calling you, or not? I don't really understand how that could happen.

To sum up, my concerns are:

1) That this is all or mostly in my head rather than an actual exploration of some other world;

2) That if it is real and being arranged by Loki, I am dealing with it the wrong way--getting lost in the trip when I should be looking for a way out and finding a way to avoid travelling unless I have a good reason for it.

It's actually very easy for the mind to throw up a convincing journey that nonetheless has no external validity. I've experienced this myself. On one particular occasion I had a horrible, bleak interaction with someone/thing that looked and behaved enough like Loki to fool me for a while; I was essentially informed that I'd never amount to anything and was being dropped, and nothing I said or did would change that. Although I did have some doubt in the validity of the experience--it felt sort of thin, the cold wasn't cold enough, the wet wasn't wet enough, the God didn't feel like a God--it felt just real enough to be genuinely distressing.

When I checked in later on, I was told that none of it had been real, that I hadn't been fired, and that the whole experience had been cooked up by my own brain. No God or spirit involved, just the manifestation of certain of my own anxieties and hangups: being insufficiant, not coming up to scratch, not being worthy etc.

If you trust Loki to act like Loki, then it only stands to reason that if it is a confusing journey, maybe even appearing senseless to you, you are certainly within His realm.

Not necessarily, no. Like I say, there are things that feel fairly real, but aren't, and sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference.
 
 
Ticker
19:33 / 12.01.07
Not necessarily, no. Like I say, there are things that feel fairly real, but aren't, and sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference.

Sounds like you need an esoteric bullshit detection device. Can you ask one of your Patrons to help you build one?
 
 
Papess
19:38 / 12.01.07
Not necessarily, no. Like I say, there are things that feel fairly real, and aren't, and sometimes it is very hard to tell the difference.

Yes, that is my point though, that is Loki's realm of experience. I must say, it seems that your own experience with Loki is wrought with this kind of uncertainty, but I can only imagine, that this is par for the course with Loki.
 
 
Papess
19:40 / 12.01.07
Sounds like you need an esoteric bullshit detection device.

I love that idea. Remember to aim it at yourself first.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:49 / 12.01.07
Maybe there are resources available you could draw on which have been developed for treating compulsive behaviour

Actually, cues and conditioning a-la Behavioral Psychology can be highly useful for drawing firmer boundaries in work like this. But deciding on an appropriate cue program, and then conditioning yourself to it takes time, and consistant effort.

Was I simply dreaming about that God or spirit, or did Ze actually visit me in my sleep?

Ohhh, that one can be such a bitch to sort out. I'm still learning the lines. Usually if They were really there, I'll get a physical hint the next day. Like if I dreamt Ghede put a black quill pen on a friend's keyboard to remind him to get in touch, and then the next day I step outside, and there's a black feather sitting squarely in the middle of our doormat, I figure that message was real. Confirmation is my friend.

Wouldn't the Gods know if you'd visited Them or not? Do you have other ways of asking Them?

A magical technique should make a difference, it shouldn't just be yet another space for your ego to stretch out and get comfy.

Okay, but at the same time, self-work isn't exactly pointless. From this description so far I see three possibilities. 1) It's TPTB sending you outward to learn stuff and do stuff. 2) It's TPTB sending you inward to deal with aspects of yourself that need attention. 3) It's your own psyche throwing a fit about something that needs attention. Now I admit, if it's the third option, fixing the problem is stopping the sequence. But forcefully stopping the sequence and going back to ignoring the problem isn't fixing it. So while figuring out which category you're facing is important, simply calling a stop on it if it's too personal to you doesn't strike me as the best solution.

But sometimes it's necessary to make someone do something they don't much want to do for their ultimate good, or because it's important in some other way.

Given your reluctance, and this statement, it's arguable that the involuntary nature of the thing is evidence that there are outside influences involved.

Does anyone know if there are any discussions specifically dealing with the relationship dynamics between Dieties and mortals?

Yes, there are several. We've gotten into this a lot in the Posessory thread, and I think actually this situation is similar enough to Posessory problems (am I just Horse-talking out of my ass, or am I really posessed here, folks?), so it might be worth finding again.

Signal and Noise...

it's possible to become well versed enough in lore and in other people's descriptions of such work that your wayward brain can generate a scenario that most or many would find convincing, without it having much external validity.

Ouch, yeah, that is an increasing problem in my dream work, I've noticed. Which brings me back around to your point about how it should feel.

For me, on the rare occasions a God has rendered me down for liquid bones, it's been pretty clear to me that it's NOT all in my head. But it doesn't happen to me on a regular basis.

Going back to the cues and conditioning, I do have one cue that seems to help me tremendously: I have a necklace I wear when I am effectively closed for business. Mind you, because of my experiences, I don't expect Them not to knock, but They can't (or at least don't) just settle down and knock me off my ass. Interestingly enough, I was still wearing it during a Bembe, and never looked down to notice that it was still on my neck. This was fine for most of the event, because I wasn't expecting to trance out anyway, but when the powers I actually dance for were called and I still couldn't get better than background commentary, I was thoroughly confused. Then I finally noticed the necklace, took it off, and realized I should have sat down first, because I almost hit the floor.

No God or spirit involved, just the manifestation of certain of my own anxieties and hangups: being insufficiant, not coming up to scratch, not being worthy etc.

And what pings to me (but mind you, I'm interested in persuing a career as a Therapist) is that you still needed that journey for yourself.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
20:50 / 12.01.07
Something else just popped into my head:

What if the prompting for journey is real, but you're responding to it by collapsing into your own box in self-defense? What if the point is for you to learn how to go OUT when this comes up, not fall inward?

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
23:37 / 12.01.07
Remember to aim it at yourself first.

That doesn't sound right. I meant it more in a general way than at MC or anyone for that matter. I just want to be clear on that.
 
 
Papess
10:55 / 13.01.07
No God or spirit involved, just the manifestation of certain of my own anxieties and hangups: being insufficiant, not coming up to scratch, not being worthy etc.

Self-doubt is double edged. On one hand, one doesn't want to be deluded by one's own bullshit - so self-doubt is helpful thinking. On the other hand, self-doubt can prevent one from taking action.

My biggest concern for you, Mordant, is the physical reaction you have when you "postpone indefinately". I would say, just don't do that, but it seems trite. It is just that dire consequence for such (seemingly) petty things that you are being called for. On the other hand, your criteria for for a meaningful journey is quite high, and although you may not be saving anyone's life, you need to safeguard your own.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:29 / 13.01.07
Well like I say I've stopped trying to skive off--I'm doing the work, I just wish I understood it a bit better...
 
 
Ticker
13:08 / 13.01.07
well I soundly doubt infants have any clue why they keep landing on their faces or having the urge to use only their rear limbs for mobility but eventually they figure it out.

Be kind to yourself; it is hard work.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:53 / 13.01.07
Well, what i was trying to say was, all this drawing distinctions between magical work and normal everyday stuff, i find isn't helpful, it like treating magic as a hobby like an RPG or a LARP (i think these things are secular substitutes for the place a communal based religion would of taken, along with sci fi and fantasy). Dividing the world up into magic i begin LBRP and close with magic over doesnt work for me at least.

All life is part of the practice, including dreams, imagination, day dream (paradox to what i just said), spirituality is inclusive of everything and magic and spirituality are the same thing. In how i work and perceive.

The work you do is just as important as the food you eat, you sexuality etc etc its all of a spiritual nature, that display a variety of characteristics of what spirit can be.

Dreams are one such thing, as is how we choose to dress ourselves, our relationship to the deity's artifacts and creatures and places, these are all in the world, of the world, as are our dreams and fantasies.

When the mythological reality (REALITY) begins to collide with our day to day, it can lead to self doubt, questions about our sanity etc,the worth of what we are doing, but it wasn't so long ago when the mythopoetic parts of life were given a huge amount of importance its only very recently that a conscious separation was chosen over mythological perception (The world as a puzzle of forces in convocation), that perception in my opinion is important in a world that places an increasing amount of importance on division through rational categorization, human centred measurement, that denies spiritual reality's in favour of only material answers.

If theres one question i would ask myself when it came to my work, it would be what does my life's experience tell me in this area, what have i learn t from this, am i really going to throw that all away, all that hard work and effort, the trials and pitfuls i have been through to see how i see, be how i am, there are people asking me to do this at this moment in time, give it all up for more solid tangible things, pulling on all the memories of being outside and isolated in what i have chosen for myself, trying to characterize all my interests as weird. I ask myself whats in it for them, another one who has sacrificed there dreams for more realistic goals, a easier way in life?

Easy is boring, at least to me. The journey for me is about learning to fight for what i want to be, how i want to live, the journey is about opening a society to difference, wether it be religious, spiritual or simply personal psychology.

I feel alot of homogeneity being pushed at me from alot of different directions, each with there nicely knit little patterns for me to fall into. Bollocks to them. If i have to give up everything then they can kill me, and i will give up everything, personally i am through with them trying to play me. People telling me i cant do this and that think this way and that, wear these clothes, be this way, there are times in my life where i do just want to lay down and die, some might say unfortunately it doesn't seem to happen, i get back up and carry on with my journey.(none of these journeys are separate from the journey of your life)

Keep on fighting for what you believe in.
 
 
petunia
22:27 / 13.01.07
Could it be that the whole thing is some kind of 'wearing away'?

I don't practice with Deities as such (my perspective is more that of zen disciple) so i may be waay out here, but the whole thing reminds me of various personal experiences and tales i have.

Frequently in zen, and other, parables, there is a need for a student/disciple/path follower to drop something they are carrying in their mind in order for them to heal properly. Often, the action of dropping may be enforced by a master or teacher and will seem quite unethical but it will work towards the overall healing - the zen stick.

There's the tale of the zen master who would raise his finger into the air when asked about zen. One of his students started to imitate this by raising their finger when they spoke of zen. The zen master asked the student to talk of zen. As the student raised their finger, the master took a blade and cut the finger off. Staring questioningly at the zen master, the student saw him raise his finger with a smile. The student became enlightened. (sorry for the annoying parable, but this is going somewhere...)

The idea of the story being that the student was holding on to various concepts and ideals of what it meant to be zen. In the shock of having the finger (which was exemplar to one of these ideals) cut off, the student was brought to face with these ideals and had to drop them. Healing with a price.

Sometimes those in charge of us need to wear away parts of us. Sometimes we fight to keep hold of thse things, even though we may be better off without them.

Could these journeys be some kind of 'zen stick' for you? In your posts, you mention the goal/desire of personal power and the ability to help those around you. Could it be that your desire for a technique that will create real benefits for myself and others in the future is some kind of weight that your Boss is trying to get you to drop?

You mention your dislike of people who use techniques such as journeying as a cosmic wank and perhaps this leads you to a strong feeling that all Practice must have some kind of utility.

By constantly making you journey, the Boss could be trying to wear you out in order to make it too hard to continue carrying whatever it is you are carrying in your mind.

You say you have two main concerns:

1) That this is all or mostly in my head rather than an actual exploration of some other world;

2) That if it is real and being arranged by Loki, I am dealing with it the wrong way--getting lost in the trip when I should be looking for a way out and finding a way to avoid travelling unless I have a good reason for it.

If option 1. is true, then it seems pretty much like your head needs to be doing this. Assuming this is the fact, you may well be better off just going with it. In times where i've needed to do something and it it too hard to resist, i have found it better to go along with it. After a while, a clarity is reached upon whether or not it is a genuine need, or just some mental desire stuff. Fighting it could lead to further complications down the line. Making friends with your head would be the best bet.

Perhaps you could try some kind of working to find out if it is a mental issue or a spiritual one. Reiki is the only stuff i have much experience with in this sort of clarity-giving; a sei heki asking for clarification on which side this is coming from, and help with sorting it if it is mental, every day for a week or two might throw something up. Am i right in thinking you practice tarot? Would that not give guidance?

As for point 2. might i suggest that the idea that you should be looking for a way out and finding a way to avoid travelling unless I have a good reason for it could be your own projection onto the situation -- your dislike of teh pokemon astral clique leading you to think that journeying must have a specific 'good reason' (i.e. valid utility).

It could be that Whoever is doing this is doing so in order to wear out this desire for purpose or use. 'The wonder of mystery' etc...

It seems pretty obvious that They want you to journey. You say they are very insistent on the fact and will not let you avoid the journey. Would they do this if they wanted you to avoid travelling without purpose?

It's pretty obvious that you don't like doing this, and feel strongly about purposeless journeys, so why would they need to preach to the choir?

Again a tale: Ouspensky was contacted by Gurdjieff during the war and told to come to him in East Russia from Western Europe. He was told it was incredibly important that he come right away. Worried for his master's life, Ouspensky spends weeks travelling across a war-torn Europe and Russia, having dodgy situations with borderguards and nearly getting bombed a few times.

Upon arrival at Gurdjieff's location, Ouspensky goes to his master and asks what it is that he needs. Gurdjieff say something along the lines of 'Oh, never mind, it doesn't matter anymore. You can go home now.'

Now, Ouspensky was furious and left for Europe, cutting off any future contact with Gurjieff. But i guess Gurdjieff's aim was to pile on the worry, frustration and deire so high that O. would be forced to drop these things when they were met with a flat nothing.

I suppose it's a matter of trust in those in charge of us. Loki may well be training you in journeying so that it can be a useful technique to add to your repertoire, but he might just be trying to get you to let go of something. Maybe you have a finger needs cutting off...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:59 / 14.01.07
EmberLeo:

Usually if They were really there, I'll get a physical hint the next day. Like if I dreamt Ghede put a black quill pen on a friend's keyboard to remind him to get in touch, and then the next day I step outside, and there's a black feather sitting squarely in the middle of our doormat, I figure that message was real. Confirmation is my friend.

Confirmations like that are invaluable, but me being me I have trouble accepting even these. Some days I could walk past a five-foot tall mural consisting of the words "FFS MORDANT YES IT WAS A REAL VISITATION NOW FOR THE LOVE OF ALL YOU HOLD SACRED WILL YOU STFU AND JUST BLOODY ACCEPT IT, signed [Deity] xx" and I'd still be thinking "mm, nah." Even when there's actual physical fall-out after a faring forth (eg when Hela ripped my face open that time, that whole side of my face was numb for a while afterwards), I second-guess it. Was I aware of the impending physical problem on some level such that I created a scenario around it? etc etc etc bloody etc.

Wouldn't the Gods know if you'd visited Them or not? Do you have other ways of asking Them?

1) See wall mural thing above. I'm often told "no, you can't have a straight response to such and such a question because you're not going to accept it. You're going to have to go the long way round so that you can really appreciate and understand the information." This is true, and it's particularly true of this topic. (I should also note that in several cases the things learned and experienced in the process of "earning" a particular bit of information have been vital to understanding it.)

2) See also Space Invader machine/can of Coke thing mentioned upthread.

I agree that inward journeying for selfchange can be a very valuable technique. I have to say, though, that it's never done me much good. Doesn't seem to work that well for some reason. I'm already a pretty introspective person, maybe that's why.

sometimes it's necessary to make someone do something they don't much want to do for their ultimate good, or because it's important in some other way.

Given your reluctance, and this statement, it's arguable that the involuntary nature of the thing is evidence that there are outside influences involved.

Or it could be some internal influence that's too far back for me to identify it. I can't say for sure.


Going back to the cues and conditioning, I do have one cue that seems to help me tremendously: I have a necklace I wear when I am effectively closed for business. Mind you, because of my experiences, I don't expect Them not to knock, but They can't (or at least don't) just settle down and knock me off my ass.

That sort of doesn't work for me. There are things I can do and say to indicate that I would like the day off if poss. (going to the gym, putting on my bf's T-shirt, reversing/messing up my clothes etc) but I can never entirely close for business. They can still drop in if it's deemed necessary, although it's more usual for Them to observe the signals.

The deal works like this: as long as I'm reasonable and accommodating about giving Them my time and energy, I get plenty of room to negotiate and I can count on certain very important things. I can trust that this kind of thing won't happen at times when it would put me in physical danger, lose me my job, get me arrested or otherwise fuck up my ability to function in meatspace. For example, I have been yanked off on a trip while on a long train journey, but I still had access to a limited awareness of the general condition of my body. If someone had come over and tried to nick my wallet I'd certainly have been able to respond.

.trampetunia: Gurdjieff sounds like a total wanker in that story, but that Zen business pings. I can think of a lot of stuff I'm carting around which could do with a good swording, but I won't get into it right here because I've already gone on about myself enough for one thread.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:54 / 14.01.07
That sort of doesn't work for me.

Actually, it sounds like it works almost as well for you as it does for me. My suggestion is just that you might benefit from deliberately making the sign and agreements more concrete.

I get the distinct impression that my wearing the necklace is something They choose to acknowledge. I can't imagine the necklace itself would actually be enough to stop Them if They really felt the need to power through it, though it might interfere with my ability to respond.

It sounds like what you're saying, though, is that They are feeling that need more often in your life than They ever have in mine thus far. I'm not sure I envy you.

Confirmations like that are invaluable, but me being me I have trouble accepting even these. Some days I could walk past a five-foot tall mural...

Ohhh. Okay. Then I highly suspect a major lesson for you in this is more self-faith in your work, and giving you fodder for learning how to sift external reality from internal reality. I wonder if TPTB ever get sick of having to spend so much time on teaching this particular set of lessons to stupid humans like us, 'cause it seems like a lot of my assignments and such end up being this lesson over and over.

The compromise I have arrived at, for myself, is that I accept feathers short of football fields most of the time, because I can see very little harm in it. But I wait for the football field for expensive, weird, dangerous, or otherwise drastic stuff.

It's not that I don't still doubt, it's that I put the doubt on the back-burner. I still need better mechanisms for this, but I make the doubt theory, and focus on the practice as much as I can. And then periodically reading stuff here makes me worry I'm not putting enough doubt into my practice, but again, all doubt seems to do is make the work harder. It doesn't make my work better, clearer, or anything more useful. It just makes it harder and cloudier.

More later...

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
07:32 / 15.01.07
I'm sorry. Now it's later and I don't remember what the "more" was.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:23 / 20.01.07
I found this article on the subject useful: The Etiquette of Alternate Reality

A quote:

Here I need to put in a word or twenty on the nature of reality, and of these alternate worlds. A guided meditation, as we'll go into in the next chapter, is not the same as journeying. That doesn't mean that when people do a guided meditation together, they aren't going anywhere but their own heads. They might be going somewhere in their own heads, or they might be visiting a a kind of archetypal world-space that seems to exist as a cosmic construct attached to the collective unconscious. This cosmic construct, like a Star Trek holodeck, is sensitive to those who touch it, and can become a kind of idealized facsimile of wherever it is that they are trying to go, be it Asgard or Brooklyn. Most people who go there realize suddenly that they're somewhere besides their own heads - wow! - and decide that they are really, truly in Asgard or Olympus or wherever it was that they were trying to go. This can happening with early attempts at journeying, too. In fact, some people never get beyond this place.

The problem is that it's not really Asgard or Olympus or even Brooklyn. Going there is rather like going to Disney's Epcot Center World Showcase and then saying that you've been to China, Italy, and Mexico. In fact, those of us who worldwalk regularly refer to it as "the Disney ride". In a Disney ride, everyone speaks your language, is friendly and helpful, wants to make sure that you have a good time, and never tries to kill you. If you throw popcorn at the waving god puppets, the worst that will happen is that you might get bounced out.

In the actual Nine Worlds - or the many otherworld equivalents - inhabitants are not there to teach you, mentor you, or even talk to you. Some of them might be friendly just because they're that sort; some will lie to you. Some will not want you there, and may try to throw you out, or prevent you from entering, or worse. Every animal you meet is not your potential totem or spirit animal. Some of them may consider you to be an intruder, or food. Every hall whose door you bang on is not going to let you in with no payment and no questions asked. Things aren't always aesthetically pretty, especially if you're among nonhumanoid types. People don't act the way you expect them to. In fact, they may be unable to - or refuse to - speak your tongue.

Those of us who want to world-walk for real need to get over the idea that otherworlds exist for our own edification and amusement. They do not, any more than the denizens of foreign cities exist to help you find your way around, teach you the native arts, let you invade their homes to gawk, and politely ignore your rude and crass ignorance of their manners and customs. We also need to get over the idea that we have an automatic right to be there, which we don't. We are there by the sufferance of the Gods and spirits who order those realms, and those worlds are their territory, not ours. We need to stop acting like superior tourists; it is not in our best interest to play the archetypal Ugly American all over the multiverse.

I think a big part of the problem here stems from the fact that most people--including a lot of the people who are writing books on the subject to be employed as reference texts by other magicians, let alone giving their opinions as private individuals--have never got off the Disney ride. Ever.
 
 
EmberLeo
03:11 / 22.01.07
Mmm. I think I probably haven't very often, in any case. Theory and practice are hard to sort out...

I think calling it a "Disney Ride" is kind of insulting to the useful work that is still happening there, but maybe that's a separate issue.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
03:45 / 22.01.07
I don't know what to do with it really. I know it's good and important to question your faith, and at the same time if I take descriptions like that at 100% face value then I can't for the life of me figure out why any of the work I've done for the last several years has been of any use at all. I get synchronicity, total strangers, external input, etc. confirming that my work is good, but it's a pale shadow of these descriptions, so what gives?

Why would I get such a flow of positive feedback if all my work is a useless, sparkly plastic imitation of real work? What, exactly, is being confirmed?

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
04:14 / 22.01.07
Okay that was not happy-making, but I think I've figured something important out, talking it out with my Lover.

When I Journey (given that sometimes I really do succeed in Journeying, not just playing silly-buggers with myself in my mind, or taking a Disney Ride through the sterile sections of Otherspace) I'm blind unless I'm so far gone I'm effectively sleeping, and thus far that only happens when I'm actually asleep.

I "see" Otherspace on the same terms I "see" the room I am physically in with my eyes closed. But those are the same terms I "see" energy in as well, and yet others who register energy flows and thought forms with their actual visual sense have indicated that my reverse-sight is indeed accurate. Only my apparent sight, here, or in Otherspace, isn't visual at all. I'm picturing with my mind what I am experiencing with some other sense entirely.

Only I haven't any idea how the data is really coming in.

The danger here is that it's bound to be much harder for me to tell when I'm on the Disney ride and when I'm really out there. Thus far, I can only tell by how easy it is to continue picturing what's before me - if it doesn't stick, I've got the picture wrong.

I realize, having analyzed this, that I actually have confirmation from this from a source I trust. I once was speaking through a medium with a Friend. She doesn't fully manifest here - She was merely speaking through our mutual human friend. For reasons I no longer remember, I did my best to journey to Her home. When I got there, it took me a bit to get my bearings, but I was able to describe all but one wall of Her courtyard. And yet, for some reason one wall with a door I pictured instead as a staircase instead. She was baffled, and couldn't figure out why I could see all but one wall of Her garden. Neither could I.

In retrospect the answer is now obvious: I never could see any of it, but all of it was, I suppose, clear enough in energy form that I could picture it.

This means, I suppose, that I can only see the parts of Otherspace that have really clear energy forms on a wavelength that I can perceive and thus picture. I wonder if this is what produces the Disney Ride effect - not that we're in some set-aside sterile area, but that we can only perceive a fraction of what's there, and only a fraction of the residents can perceive us in return. Think about how many humans actually respond to the presence of a Spirit in our own world on a conscious level. How many of the other humans seem present at all to that Spirit, if the Spirit is not well-versed in the ways of our world? Why shouldn't it work both ways?

In effect, I suppose I haven't yet learned to manifest as anything more than a weak spirit in Otherspace, except under certain circumstances, when I have been able to have a stronger presence for a brief period of time.

Does any of this make sense?

--Ember--
 
 
Vadrice
06:20 / 22.01.07
it makes perfect sense to me, and i don't really see it as this seperate "introductory training realm to learn about journying" either. i see it as our own spiritual defenses protecting us from the scary its and allowing our subconscious to filter out all the shit that could done get us killed.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:30 / 22.01.07
Why would I get such a flow of positive feedback if all my work is a useless, sparkly plastic imitation of real work? What, exactly, is being confirmed?

Well if you're getting significant comfirmatory feedback I wouldn't worry, since you're obviously having a meaningful effect on something--be it the outside world or your own inner self. I don't have any problem with journeying into one's own inner self to create changes there that will make you a more effective and happier person. I'd call that a demonstrable result. Like the article says, that etheric Epcot centre is there for a reason.

What I have a problem with is noodling round inside your own head to no specific end except shoring up your own ego, and confusing this with more meaningful inner work, or worse yet confusing it with the big scary not-in-Kansas-anymore trip Out There.

(As an example: I'm really sick of going to online groups for advice on difficulties dealing with this spirit or that Deity, and having people who are big enough and ugly enough to know better smugly telling me I just need to "stand up" to Whoever like they did, and then go on to give an entirely unconvincing account of an astral battle with eg. Odin WHICH THEY WON. I'm not saying that there never have been magicians who could pull off something like that because I don't know enough to judge, but it's not bloody likely. An interaction like that might be valuable in its own way, but should not be confused with an encounter with a God.)
 
 
Ticker
13:19 / 22.01.07
As an example: I'm really sick of going to online groups for advice on difficulties dealing with this spirit or that Deity, and having people who are big enough and ugly enough to know better smugly telling me I just need to "stand up" to Whoever like they did, and then go on to give an entirely unconvincing account of an astral battle with eg. Odin WHICH THEY WON.

*headdesk*

I'm sure two year olds often think they get the best of Mumma when they scream and kick and get the lolly rather than jettisoned out of the airlock. However to continue along a grim not so funny line we do read often about the ones that do not get the lolly.
 
 
Quantum
13:28 / 22.01.07
Reminds me a bit of the Waterboys song 'Whole of the Moon' I heard again yesterday;

I spoke about wings/you just flew
I wondered I guessed and I tried/you just knew

I have no experience of godly communication, but the idea that standing up to Wotan would be a good idea is laughable. "Yeah, a swift kick to the happy sacks and he'd go down like any bully, yeah, did I say I was teh Ipsswissimuss?"
In My Mind, the difference would be obvious after even one success but nebulous beforehand, like an orgasm or strong hallucinogens; if you have to ask if it's working, then it probably isn't. Surely the difference between wish-fulfilling daydreams and an audience with a real live deity would be like the difference between looking at a picture of a candle and actually getting burnt by a fire?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:30 / 22.01.07
...and the Big Kids are hella less invested in your wellbeing than Mum.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:34 / 22.01.07
Quants: Kind of, yeah. I mean, it is possible to have an experience where your connection isn't that great, the communication is more subtle, and afterwards you have to wonder "was that X or did I just get a bit carried away for a minute there?"

But once it's happened, once you've witnessed a Power that's put the God Face on to speak to you... eh, you know. You kind of can't talk yourself out of it really, it's just too intense.
 
 
Quantum
13:36 / 22.01.07
astral battle

I dreamt last night* I was wearing Power Armour, and had to fight Geiger aliens through a huge building with my buddies inc. Darth Vader and Gandalf, then escape from armies of zombies. Am I an astral warrior and can I claim to have pwned the gods of Death?

*I really did- after playing WH40K on the computer, reading an Aliens comic, watching RotK etc. it didn't seem magical, although it was pretty cool. Darth got his hand dissolved by alien blood but luckily it was the robot one, so... wait, this is just threadrot now. Sorry.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:17 / 22.01.07
I have no experience of godly communication, but the idea that standing up to Wotan would be a good idea is laughable.

Actually, I'd say standing up to Wotan is a fabulous idea - He doesn't much care for spineless people. But there's a difference between not letting Him push you around, and trying to push Him around, eh?

I've seen people at Oracular Seidh go up when Odin is sitting on the Seer and say "Oh great and powerful GOD, what must I do to serve you, my Lord and Master?" and it makes us all in Seidhjallr cringe and back away, because the resulting response is either that He steps up to the role they laid for Him, and pulls an overblown Presence Attack giving them a load of BS that's exactly what they asked for, and makes it pretty damned clear (at least to us and the audience, if not the querant) why they shouldn't have asked, or else He pulls a very sharp, almost painful presence attack and tells them exactly where to put that idiotic fairy tale. Either way, the net result amounts to "Come back when you have a stronger grip on reality."

His presence is just not subtle.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:40 / 23.01.07
Ember: Oh sure. None of that crew are especially impressed by grovelling. But there's a difference between standing up to someone as in respectfully standing your ground, and being stroppy for the sake of of it or actively going Out There to start a fight.
 
 
EmberLeo
08:38 / 23.01.07
Which is pretty much what I said - so yeah, we agree

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
12:51 / 23.01.07
MC, what is your process for confirmation at this point?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:15 / 23.01.07
(Ember: Yeah, sorry about that--I was trying to formulate an actual response but I've ended up with essentially what you said. Not sure how that happened. Not enough sleeeeep, I think.)

XK: I have a sort of loose points system, I guess, with points awarded for:

a) Getting told in advance that I will be going out and doing X, if I've confirmed this through divination etc. (about half a point.)

b) Intensity of the experience. If it feels really-real, with surround-sound, wet water, warm sun etc, that's a point.

c) Physical fall-out. If I come out of it and need to spend several moments checking that everything is still there, that's a point. Bonus half-points for every affected bodypart.

d) Confirmation via direct contact with Person(s) concerned: half a point.*

e) Confirmation via divination: Half a point per system.

f) Synchronicitous confirmations. Notes in the graffiti, items left near my door. Very occasionally, messages from friends saying "you know, I had the weirdest dream about you and X, are you okay?" Half a point each.

Ideally I would like to have about ten points to be really comfortable with the idea of accepting the experience as the real deal, but mostly I have to content myself with four or five. It's all a bit more flexible than that, but you get the general idea.



*except for actually getting yelled at with the God Face on, which constitutes full confirmation but which I try to avoid. Same goes for if I wake up and Whoever is still in the damn room with me. You can't really argue with stuff like that.
 
 
Papess
14:43 / 23.01.07
That is a great checklist, MC. I really like it. Do you look for omens as confirmation as well?
 
 
Ticker
14:58 / 23.01.07
Have you ever thought about an a.5 of having someone else confirm through uninformed divination? Meaning you ask a skilled source to do a general reading and see if it comes up with a journey mention/flag?


Am I on crack or is augury the positive sign and an omen is the negative sign? I think I'm making that up really...
 
 
Papess
15:07 / 23.01.07
I didn't think there was any spin on "omen" as being negative or positive. I certainly didn't mean it in that way. I understand omens as "signs", confirming the issue at hand or the issue the omen itself clearly indicates.
 
  

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