BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Temple >

Is your Journey really necessary?

  
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:59 / 09.10.05
(Sort of inspired by Ganesh's Magick as maladaptive coping device thread.)

First, I will cop to being a little unsure of my terminology here. Journeying is a word that seems to mean a lot of different things to different people; I use it here in the sense of removing one's consciousness from this world and going for a jaunt in another (possibly entirely imaginary, but real enough from the perspective of the traveller).

There are plenty of threads dealing with the How of journeying, offering techniques and helpful advice for the would-be traveller, but what I'd like to do here is critique the practice as a standard technique.

I first used this technique in my middle teens, principally to gain insights regarding my divinatory work with the Tarot. Using a Tarot card as a focus, I would allow myself to enter a trace state, visualise the card in question as a door, and in this way begin a journey. I did indeed gain one or two insights into the cards in this way, but in all honesty no progress was made that couldn't have been achieved more rapidly by sitting down and cracking the books. I also experimented with using journeying to find inspiration for my writing, always with indifferent results. In retrospect it's clear to me that I was essentially journeying as an escape from reality rather than to gain insight or effect change. I'd like to say that I got a handle on this as I grew older, but the fact is I fell back on this particular bad habit many times over the years (generally during periods of stress).

Eventually I cottoned on to what I was doing and pretty much abandoned the practice, using it only if I couldn't think of a better method to achieve an intent. (For instance, if I came across a symbol, image or other message that I really didn't understand, couldn't find in books or online and needed to investigate, I might set up a journey using that as my gate.) I would journey maybe three to five times a year, just enough to keep my hand in. I can't say that my magic practice suffered especially from restricting my use of this technique.

This pattern seems very common. Whilst I accept that journeying is a valid magical technique, practiced across many paths and many cultures around the world in one form or another, it can very easliy become an escape mechanism. This isn't just for the simple reason that slaying dragons = more fun than homework, but because random journeying can serve as a pleasant practice-flavoured nonpractice, a way to wear the mantle of Shaman without actually having to do very much real work. I've noticed that the fluffier end of the magical text market is very keen to emphasise journeying as a technique: want to understand a tarot card or a rune? Never mind all that tedious studying, just stroll off into the wilds of your imagination and come back with the interpretation! Want to understand a "godform"? Why, you just pop out, knock on his or her door, and have a friendly chat. Such chats are always friendly. I've lost count of the number of such cosy little interactions I've seen described in books and on the internet, with the character of the "godform" cutesified into oblivion. Kali sitting the teenaged witch down and handing her a mug of hot cocoa whilst reassuring her that yeah, her ex-boyfriend was a wrong'un, that sort of thing.

So, questions: How does one use journeying responsibly? How does one decide when its use is appropriate, or when a less shiny technique would be better? How can you tell a kosher experience (one that generates useful data and deepens understanding) from a Kali'n'cocoa wish-fulfillment excercise?
 
 
*
16:15 / 09.10.05
I tend to use journeying with the full knowledge that I am probably processing the bits of pieces of my own mental states and beliefs, with plenty of room for my subconscious (or the supernatural) to do some of the walking. For that reason I tend not to use journeying for goals for which this type of exploration won't suffice. I have had things happen in journeying which really surprised and unnerved me— perhaps this was the result of actually interacting with entities I hadn't planned to meet who had their own agendas, or perhaps it was deeper issues in my subconscious telling me they needed to be confronted and dealt with. I've heard it said that if a journey doesn't surprise you, it's not very effective.

To me journeying is not so much a way of finding out objectively verifiable facts or of discovering occult truths about the structure of the universe, it's a personal growth practice. I use it to improve the relationships between my parts, and between my self and the entities I interact with. If a task can't be accomplished through this kind of journeying, well, I need other methods to get it done. I don't think journeying should ever be the only technique that I use for any particular goal, but I'll use it as part of an approach if I need to sort out my own inner states, or talk to folks I've talked to successfully before with journeying (and by successfully I mean that talking to them in this way surprised me, frustrated me, scared me, made me mad, made me laugh, made me confused, but ended with some sort of information I didn't have before, and sometimes didn't know I needed).
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:54 / 09.10.05
Disassociation, is the first word that comes to mind, some people who have suffered trauma in there past may latch onto the idea of of a safe place where they feel comfortable or more powerful, Its a way to deal with trauma, creating a distance from uncomfortable situations in reality.

It would be intresting to compare the characteristics on journeying to the experience of visions, where the visions are not entered into with the conscious intent of whomever is having the vision. Journeying in some respects starting with conscious intent sets some connotations on the content experienced.

Journeying can be pure escapism very siimilar to role playing and then getting to paint a cool magician/shaman type image about oneself after, a feeling of being special and different to other people, yet when really thought about everybody dreams, and journeying at its best is like conscious dreaming or hynogogic visions, so really nobody who can journey is really that special.

Visions on the other hand can be totally dangerous, inappropriate to the situation and very disturbing, similar to hearing voices for some people. Visions can also be revelatory to a person or community and very useful.

As an activity excessive journeying is very bad for the body, it can be the equivalent of never leaving a bed for long periods of time or a chair, when returning to physicality all sorts of aches and pains can manifest, similar to those experienced by beginning meditators in say chi gung or yoga.

It is definately an over used technique by many authors mainly i would guess because it is so utilitarian and everybody can learn to do it, by following a voice or text.
Perhaps a technique employed far too often and easily to make up for more challenging forms of work.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:50 / 09.10.05
and by successfully I mean that talking to them in this way surprised me, frustrated me, scared me, made me mad, made me laugh, made me confused, but ended with some sort of information I didn't have before, and sometimes didn't know I needed

See, I think this kind of thing is key. If all you're getting when you journey is what you expected when you went in, comfort food for your prejudices, then something's not right.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:45 / 10.10.05
yes, I feel safe in saying I don't use journeying to escape, because 1) I only do this kind of thing a couple of times a year, tops, and 2) it's always the opposite of a comforting experience. generally it's some kind of revelation about how I/everything else works which is depressing or confusing or at least not at all what I was expecting - the bad thing about being a romantic is that the truth is often bad news. I'm usually more depressed and anti-social afterwards, but it's always something I needed to know or something I needed to admit. I've definitely never been offered cocoa (been trying to work "kali'n'cocoa" into conversations all day, much to everyone else's confusion). doing it to escape - what's the difference between that and daydreaming? the depth of the experience I guess. I certainly fantasize a lot but I wouldn't brag about it to a shaman.

my argument for using a journey instead of reading a book would be that it's more personalized - why memorize someone else's mistakes when you can make all new ones? and maybe you'll learn something no one else ever put quite like that. a nice rugged-individualist philosophy I probably use to cover up being too lazy or devoid of patience to finish someone else's texts or attend a class.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:50 / 10.10.05
In my experience, one element missing from a giving-your-mind-a-treat journey as opposed to the real deal is an incredible vividness. You don't just see your surroundings, you smell and touch them too. If you close your eyes (your imaginary/spirit eyes, I mean) those surroundings don't go away. You're also less aware of what's happening regarding your physical body: I've come out of a trance to find my body absolutely perishing cold and wracked with cramp before now.

Another aspect is that you don't always get to decide when you're going to be making a real journey; sometimes they seem to happen spontaneously. I guess I was a little disingenous in my opening post, as I sort of implied I was still only journeying a few times a year. The truth is that these days I'm kind of clocking up the spirit realm Frequent Flyer miles, thanks to being walloped over the head and ganked off onto the astral with little preamble on a fairly regular basis.
 
 
Ria
03:20 / 11.10.05
where, when and how does this happen to you?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:22 / 11.10.05
It's a little complicated. I'll get a "call," which can come in a number of forms: a sort of OCD-flavoured impulse to set up a journey NOW! This instant!; a wave of extreme tiredness, to the point where I physically can't keep my eyes open; a voice in my mind insistantly stating a desire to talk.

At first this was all a right pain in the arse because it was happening at all hours, sometimes in the middle of the day; I've got it sorted now. I promise them I'll be there in a few hours, and they trust me to make good on that. Nighttime is journey time.

The journeys themselves have been Not Fun. Mostly death/dismemberment/reconstruction. Over a period of months Loki ate my heart, Odin snatched out my eye, and later took guts out to make a nest for his ravens; Freki and Geri got a leg, Hela tore off the right side of my face. The remainder was made short work of by a brood of flagð, female monsters birthed by the Wolf's father from Gullveig's heart.

I live the Rune of Hail, the Tower crash; I am devoured, then reborn.

No cocoa.
 
 
Ria
23:59 / 11.10.05
how long does do these last for? do you feel pain when you get hurt in the visions? do you see the images as vividly as, say, this screen?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:35 / 12.10.05
Time's a bit bendy. Sometimes I'll feel like a few minutes have passed, sometimes the journey will seem to last for half a day or more, when outside only an hour's gone by. I "see" things with perfect clarity, just as solid as this screen. I can also hear and smell, and usually taste. I do get sensation, so sometimes there is pain; more usually there's only discomfort--pulling, tugging sensations ect. I'm not terribly good at trancework so I don't feel things very strongly normally.

Often I find a physical effect occuring in the site of the injury when I come out of the trance, like a cramp, or something longer-term.

Why do you ask, Ria?
 
 
beautifultoxin
09:28 / 12.10.05
The most powerful experiences I've had journeying have been in my training coven, where 7 or 8 eight of us led by a priestess did a collective trance journey to a few "locations" that are central to Feri tradition. As we traveled in circle, we each called out what we saw, with surprising similarity, going off on our own and then coming back together to depart, ground, and quickly journal what we found. As a group we travelled back there several times, and also on our own as "homework."

The initial post and summary remind me of a story by a traditional Scottish cunningman, on the oddity of going to Pagan gatherings in the woods, where the group leader would ask everyone at a class together to trance to a "deep dark wood" or some such -- when there is one, hello, right there. That's the Everquesting for me, right there. Can't see the deep dark wood for the...

But as to the utility of journey, it has to be backed up, for me, by corroboration with others (for purely etheric trips) or with going to a similar place "offline." Places I've happened upon in trance have a way of cropping up in my day-to-day, which I take as another sign of being on the right track when I need that reassurance.
 
 
Ria
13:22 / 12.10.05
asking out of curiosity because I have never experienced anything like you describe myself unless you count hynagogia, spontaneous OOBE's and lucid dreams. and, so, never having experienced it myself I wanted to know all about how vivid it came across.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:43 / 10.01.07
This is still happening, and frankly I'm getting a bit sick of it. There was a lull in the activity for about six months, then the "astral" or whatever trips started up again.

I can't say it takes a huge chunk out of my time or anything, since I'm only going out once or twice every thre weeks or so for a couple of hours of meatspace time, and that usually in the evenings. My problems with the situation are:

1) It's not voluntary. I can negotiate times and places to an extent, but if I try to put it off indefinately I get floored by a wicked fatigue attack and end up Outside when I go and lie down. And I mean wicked fatigue, to the point where I sometimes can't hold the mug of coffee I'm drinking to stay awake.

2) I don't understand what it's all for. Sure, sometimes I get given an item or told something. Other times I get given some incomprehensible chore or another and then packed off home. I get the suspicion that whatever I'm meant to be doing, I'm not very good at it.

3) There seems to be no discernable benefit to anyone from a lot of these episodes. No one I know has ever got better from being sick or got a new job or a new girlfriend because some muppet went out on t3h A5tr4l PLane!11! and spent a subjective hour or three winding yarn or singing to dead guys in gravemounds. On the other hand, I've run into any number of people who make this kind of thing the staple of their practices and with a few notable exceptions they are a bunch of bone-idle ninnies who think magic is something you should be able to accomplish without having to do anything so strenuous as get up off the sofa. I have a violent allergy to "magic" that doesn't actually do anything.

I've been able to negotiate up to a point ("I'm busy right now; I'll do it when I get in from work, okay?") but I haven't been able to get the trips to stop completely. I feel like I'm becoming the living embodiment of everything I cannot stand in an occultist.

I am very cross.
 
 
Ticker
13:35 / 10.01.07
it might be a clue as to what's up if this is the sort of thing you dislike in other people's practice as you maybe under the yoke of walking in the other person's shoes forcibly.

It's often hard to tell if it's a wax-on/wax-off moment that will click into place later or if you're just being sent on the polite visits for unknown reasons. I've been up and down an awful lot of barren windy mountains, crawled into a few muddy holes and attended a few gathering not knowing why the fuck I was there. Later I've had some wax-on/wax-off clarity but not always.

If you set aside a certain amount of tolerance for not knowing what you have left over is the concern about your personal time and life. The hard answer is for some people the occult isn't a hobby or a part time job, it's a full time requirement. You maybe being pushed into that direction which is incredibly hard and difficult to adjust to. However you do have a good handful of resources to reach out who have undergone the process.

IMO it is particularly hard when dealing with Deities that are accustomed to having followers be able to shape their lives around being Called. Sometimes They don't quite listen when you ask for a rain check. On one hand this is terribly frustrating as you try to explain modern living on the other They kind of have a point. A lot of what we modern folk are sucked into and consider highly important is not directly vital to living (in the sense of drawing breath). We think it is or else we wouldn't be doing it obviously but They're looking at it after a very long time of seeing the basic human set of requirements. Problem is if you try and bargain for a sustainable lifestyle off of Them you'll often end up with a plot of land and a handful of livestock.

However modern living does have its advantages and there are many ways of structuring your life around these tasks. Finding how to make it all happen is not the hardest part, allowing it happen is. Few of us were raised to put our needs second to the well-being of anything else especially something we can't instantly grasp the value of. Parents can restructure their lives around the needs of their children or children around the needs of their parents or partners around each other because we can see why we need to do it. But that's about all we understand and even that is often incredibly hard. I have a great admiration for people who can place the well-being of others first especially when those requirements are incredibly demanding.

So I think, MC, your problem isn't so much how to make room for it but why should you extend great effort to change your life to undertake tasks you don't understand. The only reason I can suggest is that even you don't think you're good at it, it is apparently who you are and what you need to be doing.

That said I can also say I have been putting off what has been asked of me for many years (oddly I was thinking of it only an hour or so before sitting down to the 'puter). It's like living in exile and is incredibly painful and I know that all of the angst & misery I occassionaly endure would vanish as I dropped in like a puzzle piece. Yet my desire for my current life offsets that pain as crazy as it sounds. It's a trade off and I'm using time to pay off the interest accrued.
 
 
illmatic
16:30 / 10.01.07
Cool post, xk. Interesting stuff.

Do you want a divination about it, Mordant?
 
 
Z. deScathach
18:03 / 10.01.07
To be honest, most of the guided journeys that I've taken, usually in the context of some sort of talk or seminar, have been lackluster and uninspiring, and the ones that I've taken myself have been largely the same. Perhaps my POV has to do with the fact that I'm comparing them to the visionary experiences, when the universe comes pounding on the door and demanding to be let in. Those moments can be a strain, but they make me feel alive. There was a time quite a few years ago when I was dead inside. I saw the world in shades of grey. I wanted to die, and was using quite a few tried and true methods to bring that about. To me, journeying is about a story. A vision is about wildness. A vision turns the world from grey to color, and from tame and lackluster to beautiful and dangerous. To me, journeys are like kitties. I love kitties. I like it when they curl up on my lap, I like the kittie safety, (unlesss you're talking about the first cat I ever had, affectionately termed, "the meanest cat on the block"). When I see a tiger, I swoon.

Mordant, it sounds like what you are describing are instances of the universe pounding on the door. That sort of stuff can be rough.... both taxing on time and demanding of the body, but for myself, I've found that I've always gotten something out of it, even if that something is not always immediately apparent. However, when a vision tells me to do something, and I don't know the why, I politely decline. I don't know what the cause and effect of that action on the informational layer of the universe is, and I'm not all that trusting. Still, when it comes to being devoured, that does have a cause and effect. The cause is disassembly, and the effect is reassembly, hopefully in a more powerful and integrated form. It's unnerving that it doesn't come with a guarantee as to how the reassembly goes. I'd have to say that the death rebirth/devoured reborn journey is one where the game is worth the candle.

There are forms of journeying for such things as soul retrieval, that are both powerful and risky, but for some reason, when I hear the word journeying, that's not what I think of. New age semantics seem to have linked the term with guided meditation, or even astral travel in my mind. In my own experience, when I travel intentionally, I'm always layering a level of control onto the experience, which is probably why I've done it less over time.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:40 / 10.01.07
No one I know has ever got better from being sick or got a new job or a new girlfriend because some muppet went out on t3h A5tr4l PLane!11!

Not a muppet, no. But a shaman, yes. There is definitely a difference.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:45 / 10.01.07
xk:

it might be a clue as to what's up if this is the sort of thing you dislike in other people's practice as you maybe under the yoke of walking in the other person's shoes forcibly.

It's not that I automatically dismiss this kind of work as having no value, or assume that anyone who utilises it or even bases the bulk of their practice around it is automatically a dilettente. My problem is that it's a very fuzzy area, very easy to get lost in. It's not always clear what's a message from the Universe, a worthwhile exploration of some important unreal estate or an interaction with spirits on Their own turf having the potential to impact on our reality, and what's nothing but a vivid daydream--of value to the person experiencing it, perhaps, but not much use to the rest of us. Beyond saying that, however, I don't think I've ever failed to acknowledge this kind of work as potentially valuable. I don't think this is a "Nyahaa! See how you like it!" thing.

IMO it is particularly hard when dealing with Deities that are accustomed to having followers be able to shape their lives around being Called. Sometimes They don't quite listen when you ask for a rain check... Problem is if you try and bargain for a sustainable lifestyle off of Them you'll often end up with a plot of land and a handful of livestock.

Hah! Too right. Especially when it's an older Deity; They generally seem to regard you as rich if you own more than one blanket and a pair of boots. "What? I gave you a goat, didn't I--what more do you want?"

Few of us were raised to put our needs second to the well-being of anything else especially something we can't instantly grasp the value of... So I think, MC, your problem isn't so much how to make room for it but why should you extend great effort to change your life to undertake tasks you don't understand. The only reason I can suggest is that even you don't think you're good at it, it is apparently who you are and what you need to be doing

Oddly enough I'm rapidly becoming okay with that. I just wish I could see a few more tangible benefits to the people around me. Then I could be okay with the weird shit. (And no, I don't consider writing about it to be a tangible benefit.)

The only reason I can suggest is that even you don't think you're good at it, it is apparently who you are and what you need to be doing.

It's just that, well, grr I already had skills. I had areas of magical practice that I was already reasonably good at and enjoy doing. Why couldn't They have focused on one of those, instead of pushing me towards something I don't like, don't understand, and am not very good at? Not that I'm not being pushed to work on everything else as well, of course, but... grr.

Thanks for the responses, all. Will get to the others once I catch up on sleeeep.
 
 
EmberLeo
08:33 / 11.01.07
I guess the one thing I would add to this is that it sounds like you're going really really far out. That doesn't make going less far out not real at all, but I can see how it would cast doubt on the usefulness of milder states. To me, it paralells the argument from some Afrodiasporic camps that anything short of full-amnesiac posession isn't posession at all - it's just the human fooling themselves or lying to others. In my experience that just isn't true. But then I can't exactly argue for certain that I'm not fooling myself, can I?

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:41 / 11.01.07
Z. deScathach:

Mordant, it sounds like what you are describing are instances of the universe pounding on the door. That sort of stuff can be rough.... both taxing on time and demanding of the body, but for myself, I've found that I've always gotten something out of it, even if that something is not always immediately apparent. However, when a vision tells me to do something, and I don't know the why, I politely decline.

I see the wisdom of this, but politely declining doesn't seem to get me anywhere. Like I say, the best compromise I've been able to achieve is to ensure that these trips don't happen at an awkward hour of the day.

Still, when it comes to being devoured, that does have a cause and effect. The cause is disassembly, and the effect is reassembly, hopefully in a more powerful and integrated form. It's unnerving that it doesn't come with a guarantee as to how the reassembly goes. I'd have to say that the death rebirth/devoured reborn journey is one where the game is worth the candle.

I've had a few of those. What frustrates me is that, intense as they are, they don't actually seem to do anything. I'm still pretty much the same person with the same advantages and problems when I get up as I was when I sat down. The accounts I've read of death and rebirth from cultures where shamanism is an integral part of society do not jibe with what is happening to me: you don't sit or lie down for a couple of hours, experience a generic disassembly/reassembly scenario, and then go and have a cup of tea. The accounts I've read are extreme: you often have a serious organic disease or injury, or you've been given a heavy psychoactive. You're out so completely and for so long that your friends may be getting ready to bury you, and while this is going on you have seemingly completely real experiences and interactions.

Whilst my experiences are intense and vivid and at times as real as any meatspace experience, with sight, smell, sound and touch, this isn't always the case for the whole of the trip. I might feel a branch hit me as I run past a tree, or the texture of wool between my fingres--but I might not always fully feel the cold of a rainy night or the pain of a swordcut. It's as if the fine detail and more moderate sensation is "real" but not necessarily the more extreme elements. This to me suggests that whatever I'm doing it's not what the classic shaman does. (This is not to say I never get the more extreme experiences and sensations--I do--just that it's a bit rare).

There are forms of journeying for such things as soul retrieval, that are both powerful and risky, but for some reason, when I hear the word journeying, that's not what I think of. New age semantics seem to have linked the term with guided meditation, or even astral travel in my mind.

Yeah, this is it. Like I said above, I'm not even sure what terminology to use. The language of the weekend workshop seems to absorb everything.

I'm aware of the potential power of certain forms of journeying to effect change, but I don't really know if that is what I'm doing. I know that right now I can't effect change using this work, but whether that's because I'm not doing something that could ever create change, or if I'm doing something which is shamanic in the truest sense and I'm just not terribly good at it yet.
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:07 / 11.01.07
Dreaming eyes while your walking and sitting, dreaming without sleeping, but not day dreaming.

The dreaming is very real, remember how you dreamt as a child, remember how real it was, it still is.

Sounds to me like your eyes are opening to your dreams. dreams are real, in the context of shamanic cultures, very real wether dreamt as a big dream by a shaman, or a childs deceased grandfather, very real, our ancestors are in our dreams.
 
 
*
08:20 / 12.01.07
(Snark eaten by snarkblatt.)
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:45 / 12.01.07
It's not always clear what's a message from the Universe, a worthwhile exploration of some important unreal estate or an interaction with spirits on Their own turf having the potential to impact on our reality, and what's nothing but a vivid daydream--of value to the person experiencing it, perhaps, but not much use to the rest of us.

I'm inclined to write about your specific experience Mordant because I'm finding it very interesting. This (above) makes me wonder what the experience is, and what I read is perhaps the 'exploring unreal estate' flavour in the categories above.

My approach is to think about it in terms of your experience, rather than bigger questions about the nature of reality. There are a number of things about what you've described that worry me, but I know I have a very different kind of practice. I'm writing out some of the questions I have, here, I hope they might help.

From what you've written it sounds to me as if you are being taken advantage of. It's as if the powers are seeing what they can get away with. It's the kind of behaviour which I would say is clearly taking the piss if it was human friends. They are acting in physical reality primarily by making demands on your time with unpleasant consequences for refusal.

Are these beings you trust? What is the nature of your relationship with them, has it changed? Do you agree with this apparent blind servitude, or do you expect more from them: tutelage, respect, power, progress? Are you proving something to them? Where does this fit as a stage in the picture of your overall spiritual journey with them - can you draw a map of where you're going?

It makes me curious about what your aim is for your religious practice. You write about a desire to help others with it: "3) There seems to be no discernable benefit to anyone from a lot of these episodes." Is that aim strong enough to serve as the catalyst for your escape from this servitude, if that's what you want?

Involuntary worries me. I guess because free choice and thoughtful happy consent, are so important to me. If it was me I would likely be mobilising all available resources to get rid of this, but I don't know that much about what your priorities and choices are.

How far have you persisted with the extreme tiredness? Have you experimented with how long you can endure it and resist the compulsion? Are you able to find a free day or two to experiment with that where you don't have other commitments? What kind of support could you gather if you decided to experiment with putting your effort into resisting the call? Maybe there are resources available you could draw on which have been developed for treating compulsive behaviour, since that's a word you use: "a sort of OCD-flavoured impulse".

Perhaps there is another choice available to you between this journeying and the tiredness? I'm thinking of my own experiences of extreme sudden tiredness: eventually I learned to read a deeper layer inside and realised that the tiredness was a lack of energy due to holding in unconsciousness a tidal wave of anger and grief and fear (all of which were appropriate in kind for the situation although not in magnitude: perhaps what felt like excessive magnitude of the feelings was due to a habit of bottling them.) Once I was able and willing to tolerate the intense rage, frustration, or whatever, I didn't have to lie down immediately.

How do you know and recognise Them with whom you're interacting? I'm thinking about a greater suspicion about who the beings are and what their intentions are. I want to know whether they have any ability to take your interests into account, or whether you are being treated as an exploitable resource.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:57 / 12.01.07
Dreaming eyes while your walking and sitting, dreaming without sleeping, but not day dreaming.

Well kinda. Sometimes. Sort of. Mind elaborating on this?

The dreaming is very real, remember how you dreamt as a child, remember how real it was, it still is.

Yep, I remember vividly how I dreamt as a child: much like I dream now. I've never understood why everyone assumes that an automatic ossification of the dreaming and imaginative faculties must always take place as one moves into adulthood. Maybe it's because I've maintained a deliberate and serious magical practice of one sort or another off and on since the age of eight, but this never happened to me.

Sounds to me like your eyes are opening to your dreams. dreams are real, in the context of shamanic cultures, very real wether dreamt as a big dream by a shaman, or a childs deceased grandfather, very real, our ancestors are in our dreams.

Are they. You know, I was not aware of this universal, homogenous, one-size-fits-all approach to dreaming common to every single shamanic culture across the globe.

Snark aside, I do take dreams seriously. Very rarely I have had prophetic or clairvoyant dreams, normally touching on the wellbeing of my family, either under my own steam or with help from one of my Deadz. I document them, make note of any recurring symbols, and most of all pay attention to the feel of the dream: was that just my mind farting in bed, or was it a poke to take action in some area of my life? Was I dreaming about being at a location or was I travelling in some sense? Was I simply dreaming about that God or spirit, or did Ze actually visit me in my sleep*? There's a kind of special ping! about certain dreams, a this-is-real flag that you learn to recognise and attend to over time.

But those are dreams. I mean, I have to sleep, I'm going to dream, it's a natural process that happens to everyone anyway so it doesn't bother me in the same way as the journeying.

There is an overlap between dreams, daydreams, and journeying of the kind I've discussed above, but I think it's important to be clear that they are not equivalent. More importantly, I need to learn what, if anything, is going on here. If this is all going on inside my own head and has no relevance to anyone else, I'd lik to find out how to stop it; if it is 'real' in the sense of having an impact on the rest of the world in some way, I'd like to learn how to do it better.

I just don't understand a veiwpoint that says "inside your head or outside, real or not real, it's all the same under every circumstance and from every perspective!" when it clearly bloody isn't. If you fell in a river, it would make a great deal of difference to you whether I threw you a lifebelt or sat down on the bank and got to work imagining throwing you the lifebelt. If you were being mugged, would you prefer to hear someone yell "I'm calling the police" or "I've just sent a telepathic communication to your spirit guides on the Astral Plane"? A magical technique should make a difference, it shouldn't just be yet another space for your ego to stretch out and get comfy. Maybe I should be more Zen about this shit, but right now I'm not evolved or enlightened or whatever enough to stop giving a toss as to whether I've invested some time and energy in rehearsing a technique that will create real benefits for myself and others in the future, or whether I've just pissed away two hours noodling around in the confines of my own skull (which may very well be lodged up my arse). Why is this a wrong thing to want?


*A few months back I got careers guidance from someone I think might have been Njord. He was very nice but kept eating seagulls.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:23 / 12.01.07
Saturn's Nod:

At least 90% of my problem here is that I don't know for sure if this is something that is being enacted by the spirits I knock around with, or if its being generated within my own mind.

From what you've written it sounds to me as if you are being taken advantage of. It's as if the powers are seeing what they can get away with. It's the kind of behaviour which I would say is clearly taking the piss if it was human friends.

As would I. If any of my mates started carrying on like this they'd be asking for a kick in the fully-embodied goolies. But these are Gods and spirits, and whilst you can certainly draw profitable analogies between human-human and human-spirit relationships, trying to be too rigid and absolutist about applying them does you no good at all.

I guess a closer analogy might be signing up for a really intense University degree. If you stride into class an hour late, talk on your mobile all the way through the lecture, and refuse to do any of your coursework because dammit, you won't be pushed around by anyone!, you'd probably do very badly. You're in a situation with certain rules and expectations, and if you don't comply with those rules and expectations there will be Consequences: disciplinary action, having to retake units, being sent down, etc.

You could also think of a martial arts trainer, or a physiotherapist who's been assigned to you to help you get back on your feet after a serious accident. You might not especially enjoy their ministrations, but the intention is positive. What might be read as assualt, torture or an unwanted crossing of bounderies if a stranger did it has a different meaning in these contexts.

Are these beings you trust?

I give each one the trust proper to His or Her nature. Sometimes this boils down to trusting that They won't mess you up anymore than is strictly necessary.

What is the nature of your relationship with them, has it changed?

It's complex. There are aspects of the relationship I don't properly understand. It's true that I have much less autonomy than you might expect or I might want, but I also get a lot more support, attention, and input than I would have expected.

Do you agree with this apparent blind servitude, or do you expect more from them: tutelage, respect, power, progress?

I don't serve blindly. I never have. I don't mind serving per se, even if I don't see any direct reward--a little pro bono work never did anyone any harm IMO.

Are you proving something to them? Where does this fit as a stage in the picture of your overall spiritual journey with them - can you draw a map of where you're going?

I'm not really sure where I'm going with Them. I guess if I had to nail down my primary spiritual goal, it would be: Greater understanding of and connection with the Powers I serve, and the manifestation of Their Mysteries in this world, for the increase of my own personal power and the benefit of all.

It makes me curious about what your aim is for your religious practice. You write about a desire to help others with it: "3) There seems to be no discernable benefit to anyone from a lot of these episodes." Is that aim strong enough to serve as the catalyst for your escape from this servitude, if that's what you want?

It's not what I want, no, anymore than a committed student desires escape from University or a serious martial artist wants to escape the dojo. What I want is to know if these trips really emanate from the Gods and wights, or if it's just my mind playing tricks.

Involuntary worries me. I guess because free choice and thoughtful happy consent, are so important to me. If it was me I would likely be mobilising all available resources to get rid of this, but I don't know that much about what your priorities and choices are.

Involuntary worries everybody, especially me. But sometimes it's necessary to make someone do something they don't much want to do for their ultimate good, or because it's important in some other way.

How far have you persisted with the extreme tiredness? Have you experimented with how long you can endure it and resist the compulsion?

I have persisted quite far at times. It can get quite nasty, actually. At times I've stood up hanging onto the doorframe for quite a long time rather than give in, or gone outside for a walk. Ultimately though all this has been self-defeating: I've ended up spending more time and energy fighting off the trip than I would have if I'd just got on with it, and have been affected more strongly afterwards.

Sometimes there's just no fighting it though. I would just collapse where I stood.

Maybe there are resources available you could draw on which have been developed for treating compulsive behaviour, since that's what a word you use: "a sort of OCD-flavoured impulse".

Mmmnn. Not really. See, I know what OCD feels like, since I have it in a small way. If I don't get to perform one of my OCD behaviours, there are consequences to my wellbeing (feelings of stress, anxiety, a sense of all-around wrongness) but nothing major or spectacular. I can overcome the impulse and nothing happens. This is different. There are real phsical consequences for skiving that make skiving a bad choice, from a purely utilitarian perspective if nothing else.

Perhaps there is another choice available to you between this journeying and the tiredness? I'm thinking of my own experiences of extreme sudden tiredness: eventually I learned to read a deeper layer inside and realised that the tiredness was a lack of energy due to holding in unconsciousness a tidal wave of anger and grief and fear ... Once I was able and willing to tolerate the intense rage, frustration, or whatever, I didn't have to lie down immediately.

That may be true for some episodes of fatigue. I get those too: fatigue from side-effects of my meds, fatigue relating to my seizure disorder, acute psychomotor impairment due to my clinical depression. I can--to a degree-fight those off. The journey knock-out is something else; it's unreal, like someone's just whacked my Emergency Stop button. Everything just switches off.

How do you know and recognise Them with whom you're interacting?

Practice, mostly. There are things out there that are just bright enough to know that a magician may not kick them to the curb so fast if they identify themselves with the name of a God, but not bright enough to realise that if you selfapply a God/dess' name you are likely to draw Hir gaze. The real problem is sorting out input from Out There from the incredible din inside my own head.

I want to know whether they have any ability to take your interests into account, or whether you are being treated as an exploitable resource.

A little from Column A, a little from Column B. I think They take my best interests into account most of the time, but at the same time I know that it's not all about me. I get a lot of love (not necessarily love as a human might know it, but love nonetheless), I get bits of my makeup valued and cherished that most humans would want to supress or destroy. At the same time I have certain duties and responsibilities that I don't get to renage on. I can presume upon Their love at times, but that means They get to presume upon mine.
 
 
Papess
12:44 / 12.01.07
MC, this is not fair to you. I agree with Saturn's nod on this...

From what you've written it sounds to me as if you are being taken advantage of. It's as if the powers are seeing what they can get away with. It's the kind of behaviour which I would say is clearly taking the piss if it was human friends. They are acting in physical reality primarily by making demands on your time with unpleasant consequences for refusal.

Are these beings you trust? What is the nature of your relationship with them, has it changed? Do you agree with this apparent blind servitude, or do you expect more from them: tutelage, respect, power, progress? Are you proving something to them? Where does this fit as a stage in the picture of your overall spiritual journey with them - can you draw a map of where you're going?


These are some very good questions. I would even go further and say that these beings are the equivalent of astral bullies. It is the similar to human children pulling legs off grasshoppers, or similar life-threatening behavior. It can be dangerous, and I have my own experiences that would probably get me smacked with a nutter label, but I do understand how serious this is.

I know this might be a vulgar way to put this, it is much in the same way you wouldn't just lie down with anyone. Not that I am making any judgements on you, but their behavior is dispicable. You should have sanctuary, and if you don't, and your Gods do not provide you with that, then you need to find Gods who will. As SN similarly asked - do you really trust these beings?

If you are somehow inviting them or they are tricking you into inviting them, (Which, has happened only once to me, and I am still not entirely certain who she was - Sheila Nah Ghig or maybe Baba Yaga...anyway, a Crone figure. She did me some damage, anyway, and tricked me through my own desires and other shortcomings - so, i learned something at the very least.)

I really appreciate the ambition you have in the magickal arts, and the dedication you show. However, the learning process - the changes you post about requiring to legitimize a journey, it may not be so relevant in the immediate. On the other hand, if you are feeling violated in some way, then maybe you need call in some tough, benevolent forces to put these characters in their place.

Gods are also subject to death. Whether they like it or not, they are still within cyclic existence. Personally, I don't believe that just because one being has a longer lifeline than another, it gives them the right to bully the short-lifers around. However, because they have such long life spans, they understand things differently and they may be trying to get you to make sense of something that perhaps, hasn't happened yet and need to prepare for.

It could be they just like to play with you. You are quite a shiny mortal.

Does anyone know if there are any discussions specifically dealing with the relationship dynamics between Dieties and mortals?
 
 
Papess
12:47 / 12.01.07
Pardon me if I went over stuff you already had in your last post. I was writing as you were posting and didn't get a chance to read it first.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:22 / 12.01.07
I would even go further and say that these beings are the equivalent of astral bullies. It is the similar to human children pulling legs off grasshoppers, or similar life-threatening behavior... I know this might be a vulgar way to put this, it is much in the same way you wouldn't just lie down with anyone. Not that I am making any judgements on you, but their behavior is dispicable.

Mmmnnn. I don't really agree, for a number of reasons. Assuming that this is something originating from the People who've done the sending and not an artefact produced by glitches in my own bodymind, then I trust Them enough to accept that there are good reasons for this to be happening. Even if I am actually being put at risk (and if these experiences are 'real' that may well be the case) then it's a calculated risk being weighed against a beneficial outcome. If there is no risk then the most that has really happened is that I've been sort of pranked--less a horrible violation and more in the order of being sent to the hardware store for a lefthanded screwdriver or a long weight.

You should have sanctuary, and if you don't, and your Gods do not provide you with that, then you need to find Gods who will.

If my Gods are acting lawfully and in the better interests of all concerned, then other Gods will neither want to interfere nor be able to.

Personally, I don't believe that just because one being has a longer lifeline than another, it gives them the right to bully the short-lifers around. However, because they have such long life spans, they understand things differently and they may be trying to get you to make sense of something that perhaps, hasn't happened yet and need to prepare for.

I think that the latter is more likely than the former.
 
 
Z. deScathach
13:44 / 12.01.07
Mordant Carnival wrote:

I see the wisdom of this, but politely declining doesn't seem to get me anywhere. Like I say, the best compromise I've been able to achieve is to ensure that these trips don't happen at an awkward hour of the day.

I'd have to agree with Saturn on this point. Your statement here is worrisome. Whenever the universe has come pounding, I'm able to decline, (although not always politely). Perhaps ze is right and you are being messed with. Perhaps some protective work is in order? What you are describing here has a distinctively assaultive character. I've had things like this happen, and that's when I go into a highly martial butt-kicking in a magickal sense mode. For me that usually means pulling up a binding glyph and getting rather growly. One thing that I do feel is that after being at this board for a number of years, I truly believe that you will deal with this. The one thing that's helped me in this kind of work, (dealing with a nasty influence), is consistency. I usually start by trying to form a relationship with it. If that doesn't work, I'll bind it. If that doesn't work, I'll consistently whoop on it until the unpleasantness of our interaction makes it cease and desist. You have a right to freewill. If this energy force whatsis cannot respect that, (and who knows, with some coaxing, perhaps it will, that's the relationship thing), open up a can of whoop-ass on it. It clearly has a negative effect on your health. In the context of something voluntary or accepted, that's one thing, but if something is hurting your body without your consent and against your protest, then you have a right to defend yourself. You've stated that you wish to help people. You deserve better than to be hurt.....
 
 
Z. deScathach
13:52 / 12.01.07
Whoops! Simulataneous posts...Sorry about that! It seems that you in acceptance of this occurrence? Then perhaps it is preparing you for something, although I'd still take it careful. Anything that is as energy depleting as you are describing can get serious. I still wonder about the lack of volition, though..... you should be allowed to decline this experience if you are being taxed beyond your limits. Does this experience usually occur when you are feeling physically strong?
 
 
setsuna
14:04 / 12.01.07
What I want is to know if these trips really emanate from the Gods and wights, or if it's just my mind playing tricks.

This seems like an important question to address before a great deal of energy is spent trying to sort out the rest. The problem is, as I see it anyway, is that this is one of those big unanswerable ones. How do we ever really know? And what if it is an amalgam of both?

I can only offer my opinion, which is worth exactly what you've paid for it, but it's clear that whatever is happening goes way beyond the 'wandering the pretty path to meet one's guide' version of wishful thinking. This seems quite real in one way or another - maybe on mulitple levels.

This is nothing but pure speculation, but I know you've mentioned a seizure disorder (of which I don't know the exact nature, so I could be way off here). But what if the onset and experience of these episodes is somehow related to a development in that, and your Gods are taking advantage of the opportunity? Just a thought.
 
 
Ticker
14:15 / 12.01.07
Not to get all theology in here but some faiths do allow for Deities that tell you what to do and don't explain all the time. To take Mordant's Uni comparision a step farther, if you sign up with an institution you trust and they assign you hard work that's not automaticly a bad or oppressive thing. Now not everyone is inclined to such programs and that's why there are a lot of various approaches to learning and religion.

Mordant appears to have signed up to a system that is, overall, working. It's just this one course load is a bit grinding. Maybe the option is to change course or maybe the option is to endure. The question of what to do may be best answered by someone who has gone through it within the same institution.

So Mordant, have you consulted with graduated students for confirmation about if it is your head noise or if it is confirmed from the source? I saw Illmatic offered you a reading and I'm sure Raven would do one for you as well?

I attended a spiritworkers gathering this Fall and one of the most enlightening converstaions/seminar thingies was on Signal and Noise. We discussed how you sort out your own inner babble (including LARP-ish high Advent-Sure) form genuine messages from your Gods. Divination seems to be key as well as seeking confirmation from people knowledgeable in your system as well as those you hold in esteem outside of your system.

For those of us who have Deities of ancient and venerable (read: stubborn and demanding) traditions sometimes there is no off limits sanctuary. Sometimes the relationship is not long-lifers and short-lifers working together on a shared project. There maybe compassion and love and hopefully, respect, but there may not be a huge amount of negotiation wiggle room. Not all of us do best with open school rooms and need the structure of a lesson plan.

I guess what I'm after is to look at Mordant's situation in context to what she has willingly chosen, invested in, and what she has stated as her concerns. Having been lucky enough to make contact with other modern spiritworkers I've heard similar questions & concerns and the answers seem to reside in sorting out one's perception of what's happening so one can do the work chosen overall.

Correct me please, Mordant, but it sounds like you have plenty of faith and trust in your Deities, it's yourself and your own judgment you're shaky on?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:48 / 12.01.07
Not to get all theology in here but some faiths do allow for Deities that tell you what to do and don't explain all the time.

Yup. I realise that this concept is radically at odds with the prevailing modes of thought in neopaganism and modern magic, but this has been my experience. YMMV and all that, of course.

So Mordant, have you consulted with graduated students for confirmation about if it is your head noise or if it is confirmed from the source?

I've described and discussed my experiences with people who are further ahead of the curve than me, and mostly I've been encouraged to pursue the work. Other people can only help me so far though; they can't see what's going on inside my head.

I attended a spiritworkers gathering this Fall and one of the most enlightening converstaions/seminar thingies was on Signal and Noise. We discussed how you sort out your own inner babble (including LARP-ish high Advent-Sure) form genuine messages from your Gods. Divination seems to be key as well as seeking confirmation from people knowledgeable in your system as well as those you hold in esteem outside of your system.

This is what I'm trying to sort out. The thing is, I suspect that it's possible to become well versed enough in lore and in other people's descriptions of such work that your wayward brain can generate a scenario that most or many would find convincing, without it having much external validity.

For those of us who have Deities of ancient and venerable (read: stubborn and demanding) traditions sometimes there is no off limits sanctuary. Sometimes the relationship is not long-lifers and short-lifers working together on a shared project. There maybe compassion and love and hopefully, respect, but there may not be a huge amount of negotiation wiggle room. Not all of us do best with open school rooms and need the structure of a lesson plan.

That's pretty much the size of it, yeah. Some people don't do very well with subtle communication and gentle shoves, at least at first. We're too much given to second-guessing and vacilating and mistrusting input to make any progress until the Powers that Be lose Their patience and crank the volume up to 11.

Correct me please, Mordant, but it sounds like you have plenty of faith and trust in your Deities, it's yourself and your own judgment you're shaky on?

I think that's about right, although I do need to expand a bit on what trust means in this context. The being I work with primarily, and the one who (I think) is most involved with/responsible for the trips is Loki, my self-appointed patron. (This incidentally is why I can't simply set up an interview with my patron and ask for a straight answer, as people elsewhere have suggested. Getting a straight answer out of Loki is like trying to get a can of Coke out of a Space Invaders machine.)

Now, you can trust Loki, but like I said above you must give Him the trust proper to His nature. It would be perfectly in character and entirely lawful for Him to set up a situation where I'm being yanked off on involving but ultimately meaningless counterfeit journeys, wild goose chases. In that case, what I'd be supposed to do would be to suss out the real from the delusional and then find a way to stop it happening, rather than dutifully go along with the journey's narrative and allow myself to get mazed.

And that aside, I don't even know if this is His doing or my head being weird... gahh.
 
 
Papess
15:59 / 12.01.07
Yeah, I like the Uni metaphor. To use it a bit, I think if one signed up for a course that resulted in the prof calling you up at three in the morning to give a lecture, without any warning, and not making much sense as to what the lesson is, I think it would shake me up too.

MC, I was initially unsure if these were your "chosen" Gods, or if this was someone unknown, or in the same pantheon as...so forth. I am glad there is trust and familiarity. In that case I am guessing this Deity we shouldn't mention here for the purpose of not drawing Them here?

Anyway, if you know them, and you agree to work with them and have before, you should know what to expect by now. Pain in the ass that it is, and just as scary and demanding as it gets, if you trust them, let yourself go with it. You know this One doesn't make appointments at your convenience. If you are unable to del with their lessons, or they are possibly life-threatening, then you have to take control of your life and decide if it is all worth it.

Have you ever talked with your Deity directly about it? I don't want to get all fluffy on you, but just to ask Them the purpose for the manner in which They deal. That might make the situation clearer for you. Maybe, They want you to respectfully challenge Them instead of being a doormat for Their every whim. Perhaps, there is a lesson in that?
 
 
Papess
16:04 / 12.01.07
This incidentally is why I can't simply set up an interview with my patron and ask for a straight answer, as people elsewhere have suggested. Getting a straight answer out of Loki is like trying to get a can of Coke out of a Space Invaders machine.)

Again, ignore that last bit of my post, then.
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply