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The darkest place I've ever been to

 
  

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02:31 / 24.09.05
This thread is a belated response to an argument between 2stepfan and myself many months ago on Gypsy Lantern’s “Why are you here?” thread in which I wondered if one could utilize magic from the act of fantasizing about raping and murdering children. I didn’t really add much to the argument, however, as at that point the question was entirely hypothetical, just a notion I had, a topic that might lead to stimulating conversation. Now, many months after pondering that question, I’d like to present to you my findings. I apologize for the length of this, but I’m really curious as to what other intellectual people think about these issues, and maybe their own personal experiences, as I refuse to believe that I’m the only person who has ever grappled with such thoughts or subject matter. I haven’t posted at the Temple much recently after my bizarre meltdown awhile back, which was just a very strange, paranoid, confusing time in my life. I’m in a little better place now, though, so I’m feeling lucid enough to tackle this issue head on. All I ask is, oh, maybe ten minutes of your time or so to read this in the most neutral way possible (if you have to, pretend that one of your musical/magical/artistic idols wrote it). Some people/friends here who read my live journal on a regular basis may find some of this redundant, and I realize I have done a thread or two here or there about working with one’s dark side, but these past few months have been the most intense I’ve ever dealt with it. Christ, when Grant Morrison wrote “The Filth”, I know he wanted other people to use it to explore their own dark sides, but he probably never thought one person would drag the process out so bloody long!

To be honest, I’ve done very little overtly magical acts in quite some time now. I took down my shrine many months ago and filled the space with philosophical books, ironically, none of which I read (most of them were horribly dull). Before, I had used magic in an effort to better myself and the world around me. Now I was rejecting magic and working towards my own personal self-destruction, rejecting optimism for nihilism, and embracing the worst aspects of humanity. Disappointed by the former, I embraced it’s antithesis, which is a little like a person becoming a Satanist to protest Christianity. Both need each other.

Over the last few months, nearly every book I’ve read has had at least something to do with Nazis (btw, I‘m not an Anti-Semite), serial killers, child molesters, and other such topics (I‘ve also been looking at way too much degrading pornography, but I‘m over that too). Granted, some of these writers/artists are quite skilled, but it’s not the kind of stuff you really want to expose yourself to on a frequent basis. Soon, it quickly became all that mattered, all that seemed important. Everything else seemed… Less. I was constantly looking for the most sadistic, brutal thing I could find, never being fully satisfied. My motivations for doing so were unknown to me. Was I exposing myself to this kind of material to try to access some higher plane of knowledge, achieving some type of transcendence through the aborted rejections of society? Perhaps I thought this way in the beginning, but in hindsight that just seems like a bullshit excuse for indulging in this kind of subject matter. As the months dragged on I realized that any notions I had of viewing this sort of investigation as a magical act was just sheer denial on my part to admit that I enjoyed being down there in the gutter. But even “enjoy” isn’t the right word. There was guilt, too. And disgust towards what I had been exposed to. I yearned for more innocent times, to be free of this knowledge, but like Quimper (the comic book character, not the troll) I had become tainted in some ways. My biggest mistake, however, was in thinking of myself as some sort of horrible, perverted, evil monster. When, really, this was mostly all just mental gymnastics, torture by way of thought. It’s not like I was abusing women or looking at child porn or anything like that. Of course, the mind can imagine things much worse then reality can offer. But a large part of it was just stress and anxiety… so many people in real life, friends and family and coworkers, view me as a regular, laid-back, mild mannered, polite chap, but there was this whole other side, this monstrous aspect of myself, beneath the surface, and the pressure of maintaining my outward appearance had become a burden. Secretly I wanted to be caught and exposed for all the world to see, so I wouldn’t have to pretend to be something I wasn’t. If only I had known that I was never pretending anything at all. In some aspects I AM nice, polite, caring and so forth, and likewise there were more dodgy aspects of my character. The trick is to not get them mixed up, I suppose. Neither side is more “real” then the other. We are what we are in the present.

But I’m rambling again. Forgive me, it’s difficult to condense all these complicated issues I’ve struggled with over the last few months into a few paragraphs. Basically, one of the turning points was when I read Ian Brady’s book “The Gates of Janus”. Ian Brady, as I’m sure you’re well aware, was one half of the notorious Moors Murderers who killed a few teenagers and children in Manchester back in the ‘60s. I really liked Brady’s book a lot, it’s very good… But the key thing that I latched on to was this one part where he says that, having experienced both the fantasy and reality of killing, he came to the conclusion that fantasy was superior, and that with each crime he felt more and more empty, as if he was chasing a holy grail he could never grasp. Everyone tries to fill the void in their lives with something… He tried to do it with blood, and more blood, and oceans and oceans of blood, but in the end, he achieved nothing. The banality of evil and all that. Now a lot of it just seems dull to me. Serial killers, misogyny, and so forth… been there, done that. By overdosing on nihilism I eventually became bored by it. I never really hated women, in the end. Just one who abused me at a vulnerable age. But I’ve addressed this issue in my LJ so I won’t go any further on this topic.

But there was still one more thing. The topic of pedophilia, which has always intrigued me. I’ve never had an outright pedophilic fantasy, but I’d be lying if I said I never found certain scenes in the works of William S. Burroughs or Dennis Cooper to be sexually exciting, and by this I mean the scenes involving adolescent boys. Naturally, these fantasies were disturbing to me, and they’re not really the kind of thing you can talk about casually without looking like a pervert. I tried to just ignore them entirely, but you know how it is… The more you try to ignore something, the more it will obsess you. And this topic obsessed me for a very, very long time. I knew 100% that I would never molest anyone, and I had absolutely zero interest in seeing child porn, as it wasn’t the sex or the genitals or anything like that I found attractive. It was just the archetype, I suppose. Maybe I was a Greek in a former life or something. In fact, I recall flipping through a Julian Schnabel book at Borders a few months back and at the end, for whatever reason there was this photograph he had done of three naked boys, but looking at the picture I felt no sexual excitement of any sorts. So I knew I wasn’t a pedophile. Yet this obsession of mine was leading me into dodgier and dodgier territory. The clincher was one night when I was doing “Google: Images” for pictures of the Beach Boys and I accidentally ended up on a site full of pictures of adolescent boys in speedos. I quickly found out that the site was part of a “boy love” network or something like that. On one hand I was appalled, but on the other it was all very taboo and exciting. I would have reported the site to authorities had it been illegal, but there was no sex or nudity involved and it had been running since 1998, so I figured that if it had been around for that long and you could access it through Google, it was probably legal (hell, you didn‘t even need to pay to get in).

I only went back to the site one more time. Not to look at pictures, but simply to e-mail the person who ran the site, a young closeted gay guy whose blog never seemed to address the issue of the fact he was idolizing boys in a sexual manner. I asked him many questions: What were his feelings on the moral implications of this? Was he concerned about fueling the sexual fantasies of pedophiles with such photos? He got his pictures through other people, but were the boys in the pictures aware of what those photos were being used for? Fuck, were they even aware they were being photographed at all? I really was interested in hearing him defend himself, wondering how he’d rationalize it an intellectual manner. But he never replied back to me, so I guess I’ll never know what his thoughts are on this issue. A shame really… It’s one thing to read a thread on Barbelith about the ethical issues of pedophilia, but here I had a chance to speak to an actual boylover and get their side of the story… But he never replied back, which I thought was kind of cowardish on his part. But really, his defense would probably have been bullshit anyway. But I guess that’s the difference between him and me: Notions of morals, right and wrong, and this just seemed wrong, somehow. I realized that my morbid interests were taking me into areas I didn’t really want to explore any further… I pushed it as far as I could, legally.

So here I am, at the end of this process, burnt out. In some ways, I feel like I’ve wasted these last few months, exploring all this stuff that I thought would lead to some kind of payoff. But maybe it was good to get it all out of my system: exploring this kind of subject matter through writing, music, art and so on, until it just ceased to be new and exciting. Should I really be horrified by what I unearthed inside myself? Have I really done anything evil? To me, evil is like those terrorists who killed all those children in Russia: To them other people were just objects, political statements, and that was enough justification for them to shoot little girls in the back in cold-blood. Today there is so much hate and lack of feeling and also a lack of empathy in the world, and I was letting myself become part of it, corrupted by all the damage I saw around me. In the end, I realized that I did care about the world, did care about not only my family and friends and coworkers but also my online friends and maybe even the human race itself. I was never trying to shock other people: I was exposing myself to things I thought I secretly lusted after, but in reality I actually despised. In doing so, I rediscovered my sympathy, something I thought I had lost in the miasma of cynicism. So I guess now I can say I’ve experienced both end of the extremes, naive optimism and hopeless nihilism. The former leads to inevitable disappointment, the latter to a hole in the soul you can never fill. It appears that the middle path really is the ideal. Granted, I’ll probably always have an attraction towards what most people would consider “dark” or “monstrous”, but I see it doesn’t have to be the be all and end all. To me, Cthulhu is just as beautiful as a happy cat or a sunset, and I guess if you can see beauty in both the dark and the light then the world will appear more beautiful then if you just chose one over the other. God, how trite, forgive me but it’s true. And I suppose knowing how one's enemy thinks is a most useful weapon.

The only question now is, where do I go from here, as a magician? It’s been so long since I’ve practiced, I don’t even know what I’m interested in anymore, though after listening to some Throbbing Gristle live shows recently I’m becoming a little more interested in shamanism. I will tell you this though. Recently I read Umberto Eco’s wonderful “The Name of the Rose”, which is just an incredible book. There’s one scene where the main character confesses to his mentor that he committed a carnal sin by having sex with a girl, but his mentor calmed him down by reminding him that such an experience might, in the end, help him in his quest to be a monk. Having experienced sin first hand, he’d be in a better position to emphasize with the sinner then a monk who had never sinned. So maybe one day something good will come out of this. Perhaps one day I’ll be able to help someone else who struggles with what I struggled through, and I’d be in a better position to sympathize and help them out. Because all this stuff I’ve been dealing with over the last year or so, I truly thought there was no one I could confide to about all this, not even here, but maybe I was mistaken.
 
 
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02:35 / 24.09.05
Oh yeah, one more thing, thanks to some people on here who helped me through these dark times with advice and suggestions and argumentation, esp. Mordant and Lepidopteran. Your comments in particular on my Ian Brady post in my LJ gave me a lot of things to think about and helped me to reach certain conclusions.
 
 
Ganesh
05:48 / 24.09.05
Before people start responding to this thread, Sypha, are you going to spam the board again if you don't like what they have to say?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:57 / 24.09.05
Sypha, I still don't really see what you hoped to gain from all this. Surely the thing missing from your life has never been extra nihilism? And if you really wanted to explore these aspects of human nature, do you think you went about it the best way--by reading books about/by serial killers?

Having made this foray into the "dark side," what will you do now? I would hope that you'd be looking for some kind of counterbalance: make an in-depth study of the mysteries of compassion and empathy, perhaps. Meditate upon friendship, joy, love.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:00 / 24.09.05
Heck, you could start by going down the pub...
 
 
Quantum
08:56 / 24.09.05
Without reading the (vast) initial post, I wanted to say (*in the style of The Whites from O Brother Where Art Thou*)-

"There's a dark and a troubled side of liife, but there's a bright and a sunny side tooo, Tho' we meet with the darkness and strii-ii-iife, The sunny side we also may view....

Keeeep on the sunny side, always on the sunny side, keeep on the sunny side of liiife, it will help you on your way, it will brighten up your day, if you keeep on the sunny side of liiife!"

just sayin'.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:50 / 24.09.05
First off i think it takes alot of courage and conviction of heart to post what you have posted, and many people never explore that side of themselves out of the fear of self identification with those forces within them. I am of the opinion that everybody contains those potentials, in what shape they manifest depends on the individual.

I agree totally with your view that both light and darkness are beautiful and i would add that a onesided view of the world always casts a shadow of conflict, no matter which respective side one would ally themselves with.

These areas which lay below acceptable notions of social conformity imo have to be faced to become a whole human being. To not understand the unconscious motivation to kill or conquer, could possibly mean that in situations where this instinct manifests it may become uncontrollable.

Now that you have given aspects of your primal urges form and shape what do you intend to do with them? I do not see it as wasted experience, but as potential unlocked, in time these personal demons you have manifested can be put to work for you. My way of looking at it would be to strip the forces of there context and work with the pure force that has now been aroused by these explorations, just as your mind shaped them by the media you focused upon to arouse them, you now have the oppertunity to refocus those forces of predation on other areas of your life.

Employment,Partners, intrests. However you would wish to refocus that force. I would break with the associated literature and imagery and perhaps plunge head long into the opposite, whatever you consider that to be, but i wouldnt take the literal mediated forms of that too seriously either. As you noted being able to see both love and hate, light and dark and all the colours inbetween is a middle way, i need not keep balance, but i try to return to this view point when nessecary.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:23 / 24.09.05
I certainly agree that it can be very profitable, even healthy, to explore that side of one's personality that one keeps hidden. It's something I spend quite a lot of time doing, one way or another; I feel that I've managed to do quite a lot of work separating those features which are merely socially frowned-upon but not intrinsically harmful to others (such as the whole BDSM thing) from the real ick, the really unpleasant stuff that needs to be monitored and kept in check.

I'm afraid I don't have anything as showy as an identification with a serial murderer and rapist of children to confess. My DarqueSyde is much more about selfish vengefulness, a desire to throw off all restraint adn run wild, to do harm to anyone who's ever hurt me regardless of merit or proportion. It's ugly and squalid and I didn't want to look at it at first, but over the years I'e got the measure of it and I can keep it where it belongs. I can accept that element of myself now and even find beauty in it, because I know where it comes from. I can draw on it as a source of strength and power. I don't have to give it constant and unchecked expression, just take it for metaphorical walkies now and again.

I've also come to understand that this emotional dinosaur comes from exactly the same place in me as all the good stuff: love, empathy, caring, they all seem to come from the same wellspring as hostility and rage.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:42 / 24.09.05
(I'd also add that thi awareness wouldn't have come to me if I'd just focused on the bad stuff. It took a serious exploration of the mysteries of compassion to really understand what was going on. You can't really look at these things seperately from each other; you have to deal with the whole enchilada.)
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:25 / 24.09.05
I totally agree with you, its important to explore all the sides of your character and make the self realisation that they are in effect all parts of yourself, and also perhaps that they in and of themselves express the greater environment around us and our relationship to it.

Freedom is very important to me also, each set of boundaries i have placed upon me or i place upon my self become tools for liberation, each new chain or bond a place to learn greater freedom from.

I have found that for me it is the things that i deny the most that define me and have utmost power over me, part of my own magical work is to explore these denials as i gather the strenght and courage to approach them. Understanding them as best i can at the time i am faceing them.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:00 / 24.09.05
For example the darkest place i find myself at present, when i am there, is choking on pain, ive faced and released all i can over the last 2 years, but i still have a way to go before that pain and the fear of that pain isnt controlling me, at present my internal pain has me making hard shells and sharp weapons to defend myself and effectively isolate myself until i am ready to be open to that pain and strong enough to cope with it.

I dont particularly like that state of affairs, but at present it works, to keep me engaging in day to day activites. A point will come when i am open to it enough to experience it. Until then i keep fighting on for myself and the things i currently believe in.
 
 
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15:54 / 24.09.05
Well, Mordant, I can't really say what exactly it was I hoped to gain at the onset of this exploration, in fact, I viewed it more as an experiment with unclear results. This experiment being pretty much over, it appears I've gained very little, but hey, can't blame a guy for trying. I will say it wasn't just a matter of reading, however... I was also trying to channel all of this into my own art, be it music, writing, and so forth, until it began dominating there too. So eventually my work started to suffer, but now I don't feel the need to just create this sort of material anymore.

As for counterbalance, I've never explored nihilism until these last few years or so. Most of my life I've been an optimist, even during times of great depression. You could point out that during those times I had an interest in the morbid (hell, since childhood even), but I didn't define such things as good or bad then... It wasn't until I started to view them the way that the rest of society views them that I began to see things in terms of absolutes, and perhaps that was my flaw. But I should point out here that even in the depths of all this it wasn't like I was some hermit holed up in my room, I was holding (and excelling) at my full-time job, getting out of the house (even if it was just to shop or sight-see) and generally being more sociable with others then I had in years. Not that I was an extroverted drug-popping club-hopping party kid, of course, but then again, I find extreme extroverts who talk to much to be highly irritating. I much prefer quiet, orderly conversation.

In any event, I think the big issue was, I realize that at the end of everyone's life we look back on all the things we've done and we sometimes have regrets over things that we didn't do that we might have wanted to. Realizing this, I decided to explore these aspects of my character and see where they took me. Was there a serial killer inside me? Did I have it in me to torture and kill someone else? I eventually realized that I probably wouldn't go through with it, so now I can answer "no".

Over and Out, I know what you mean by pain. I often find that I'm at my most bitter and nihilistic (not to mention irrational) when I am in the throes of physical pain (and I suffer from chronic acid reflux and Irritable Bowel Syndrome, so pain is something I'm well acquainted with). I've always wondered if my most violent fantasies were an offspring of this sort of pain, the desire to inflict the pain on others that I was feeling. However, I can't bear to see people suffering or crying, so maybe my pain makes me emphathize with others who are in it. What's the point of torturing anyone anyway? I'd only be hurting myself, just via a proxy. There were many years where my pain was currently absent, when I was in college actually, but then when I got out of college it came back horribly. Probably due to the fact that that's when I began withdrawing from humanity. I was hoping that my full-time job, which got me out of the house, would satisfy any craving I have for social interaction, but most of the people I encounter (re: customers) annoy the hell out of me and the only people who make it pleasent are the co-workers.
 
 
electric monk
17:11 / 24.09.05
I'll tellya this: You must have balls the size of coconuts to show up back here like this after what you pulled a while back. You've burned pretty much every bridge between you and Barbelith, AFAICT. I suggest you tread lightly in this place, if you are indeed coming back.

Having said that...well...fuck man. I can't bring myself to hate you. I find, in fact, that I have a good deal of sympathy for you (and that is not meant as an overture of friendship or a "hug". Stay on your side of the table and just listen). I sympathize because you remind me of a young me in a lot of ways. Obsessed with the dark side/serial killers/etc., lingering pains in body and mind, desperately seeking friendship with what you see as "special" people, a hope that somehow you'll be saved from your current situation by forces outside yourself, "Am I a serial killer?". I can understand all that shit, and I've been there myself. So I speak from experience here. I don't know how you'll take what I have to say, but give it a read and see what you think.

Get. The Fuck. OUT. Of you parent's house. Soon, if not now. You're 25, yeah? It's time. Well past time. I found, no matter how well intentioned parents may be, that there can be a significant amount of frustration for a young adult who needs to learn about life for himself but who has a safe and comforting safety net of his parents still clinging to his back. This is not to say anything untoward about your folks. I'm sure they're lovely people. But have you considered that one of the major roots of this "dark exploration" was to freak the living shit out of mommy and daddy and force a separation that you could not bring yourself to initiate? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

I've been reading your LJ since you freaked out here and it baffled me that you would, in one post, complain about not being able to afford a place of your own, and in another post, detail the extensive CD/DVD/book shopping trip you went on. I could barely believe the disconnect, but then we all have our blind spots. I point it out to you now (as I'm sure others have) to emphasize that you DO have the means for life-change at your disposal. You just don't seem to want to admit it. And what did all that money get you? A no-doubt impressive collection of bricks out of which you built a house with no damn windows and a scant few lightbulbs. Do you see?

Maybe you're already processing these issues, and I didn't have to post this. Maybe not. All I can go on is past experience and, as you say, you tend not to use your common sense. You also tend not to listen to anyone who tries to help and loop back to the same old Sypha that I'm frankly bored to death with. I won't be surprised if you're back where you started in a few months, but I hold out hope that you can, in fact, Join the Joyride.

Don't PM. Don't email. I'm just a passer-by with a few words to share.

"Don't worry, Sir Miles. You'll live again."
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:28 / 24.09.05
Oh, so very much "what he said." Especially the part about getting out of your parents' house.
 
 
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17:29 / 24.09.05
Yeah, I have cut back on my personal spending quite a bit. Mostly due to the fact the CD store across the street from the place I work at ran out of business, so now buying CDs has become a real hassle and usually not worth the bother unless it's something I really want. I have been saving money every week though, but it seems like just when I have a lot saved some calamity ensues and my account gets drained. I do want to move out soon though, if anything because then I'll at least have more privacy. People in my family have a tradition of living with their parents for awhile... Two of my uncles both lived with my grandmother until they were in their mid thirties. In some ways it's a genetic thing. It would probably help if I was a better driver, but I don't know how to get anywhere.

My relationship with my parents is very odd. On one hand, they want me to move out and be independent, but on the other hand, they're very clingy and have almost no faith in me doing things for myself. I guess you could say they loved me too much, if such a thing is possible. I've always been the "good son" who never really rebelled, at least not publically. Having said that, I have no interest in shocking my parents, they're quite aware I've always had an interest in the macabre and have never made a big deal about it. Though I do own some art/books/movies they'd probably disagree with, I see no need to rub my parents faces in it. I'm not some teenager leaving a copy of the Necronomicon or a Marilyn Manson CD or something out for their parents to see and get freaked out by. Hell, they don't even know about my participation in the occult, mainly because I never told them and see no real reason why I should.

I do appreciate your criticism, but I will say I didn't burn all my bridges at Barbelith. I just stopped posting stuff on here for awhile, but I still kept in contact with other members on the side. I knew that I just simply was not in the right frame of mind to be posting stuff, and if I kept doing so it would just lead to more and more friction. So I took time off to clear my head. My behaviour has been pretty erratic as of recent, but I'm slightly more relaxed now then I was before.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:47 / 24.09.05
(I think some kind of apology for going off the deep end would have been in order, Syph', rather than just dropping back in as if nothing had happened. I wouldn't say you've burned all your bridges--Barbelith has forgiven this kind of thing before--but you did get pretty damned offensive. As I've pointed out elsewhere: Yes, you do come in for a lot of pisstaking round here, but people have also been very supportive of you in the past. Maybe you could be a little more gracious?)

I think this whole "dwelling on the Darque Syde" thing becomes a bit of a red herring for a lot of people. I don't know if it's our Western cultural attitudes to magic in general (with magic being framed by some as standing in opposition to "light" beliefs and practices, most especially Christianity) but there seems to be a certain tendancy to view the Dark and Scary places as being where the unliiimited pooooweeeer lies.

Sure, experiencing and understanding the less pleasant aspects of ones own nature in a magical context can be empowering, like I stated above; it can also become a sucking pit of nihilistic egomania and a sure route into a lopsided and sterile practice.

Personally I reckon that if you're working well, you should be having the everloving crap scared out of you now and again. You're supposed to be engaging with some heavy forces; fear is normal, fear is healthy. But seeking out the very scariest stuff all the time in the assumption that it must be the most juicy is also a mistake.

I do admit to an unfortunate tendancy to gravitate too far towards the crystals'n'reiki end of things myself, and I'll cop to the fact that this has impeded me at times. But leaning wildly off in the other direction is also a recipe for getting in your own way.
 
 
electric monk
19:32 / 24.09.05
MC - I think some kind of apology for going off the deep end would have been in order, Syph', rather than just dropping back in as if nothing had happened.

Seconded.

I think this whole "dwelling on the Darque Syde" thing becomes a bit of a red herring for a lot of people. I don't know if it's our Western cultural attitudes to magic in general (with magic being framed by some as standing in opposition to "light" beliefs and practices, most especially Christianity) but there seems to be a certain tendancy to view the Dark and Scary places as being where the unliiimited pooooweeeer lies.

IMHO, it's an easy way to separate oneself from 98% of the people around you, feel downtrodden and rejected by those 98%, and somehow superior to said 98% all at the same time. Helluva bargain!
 
 
Anthony
19:52 / 24.09.05
rebellion can be a noble thing and it can get out of control and become blind rebellion for its own sake which can become self-destruction. and the thing i know about psychological self-destruction, and i know it very well indeed, is that ultimately it doesn't lead to anything else other than psychological self-destruction. pain and misery are undoubtedly facets of every human experience and i think they are cues, or could be made cues, for us to give birth to a more elevated side of ourselves.

even culturally one could say that once upon a time perhaps the only thing we could do was to rebel against values & virtues because they were a stifling straightjacket.

turn on the jerry springer show and just see the mass of humanity reduced to wild snarling beasts to know that we've probably done enough in that direction and that there is nothing wrong with the values of restraint, dignity etc. all the boring things that we yawned at when our parents tried to instill them in us.

it's equally good to try to be a light in the darkness as it is good to be the darkness to a false light.

whatever our inner processes i think the measure of us is in our actions. it is there that we have the chance to be the best we can possibly be, every day.
 
 
Anthony
19:54 / 24.09.05
and i know that this all sounds as twee as f*ck but it's genuine feeling after a very long foray into - well i wouldn't call it the dark side but i'd certainly call it the weird side.
 
 
Anthony
19:55 / 24.09.05
my profuse apologies for triple posting but also, if you're gay, or bi, then you're gay or bi. accept that and don't be disgusted by it. a lot of people are and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
 
Anthony
20:10 / 24.09.05
the darkest place i have ever been to would have to be the sheer soul-crushing depression of this whole last year of my life since my mother died. i have bipolar disorder to contend with & it has rocked both poles very severely.

prior to that, i think the nuthouse would have to take the trophy.
 
 
Ria
21:01 / 24.09.05
I haven't much to add here except to repeat an idea that I talked about in my (former) LiveJournal, that self-hatred and self-loathing often derives from frustrated desire to hurt others.

can relate to so much said here. MC's statements especially. I really want to go into more specifics. I also want to save these comments for the new LJ, maybe as Friends-only entries. can explain how the revenge links to the good emotions?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:11 / 24.09.05
It's the passion, I guess. All the most powerful emotions seem to me to come from the same psychic space: If I follow the most profound and universal empathy back to its source, I seem to come also to the wellspring of the most selfish desire to lash out and do harm.

That all seemed horrible at first (because obviously you want to seperate these things, keep them distinct, prevent the one from contaminating the other) but now seems positive (because the worst instincts aren't any stronger than the finest; because there's a choice as to which you embrace and bring out into the world at large).
 
 
Ria
21:35 / 24.09.05
expressing bad emotions takes no social competence. getting close enough to another person to express the good emotions takes a kind of ability I do not always have at my disposal.

accessing the Bad Stuff in general takes far less effort because it need not involve other people. you can access it very well all by yourself.

one of the most persistent revenge fantasies (I have now decided to talk about this here, publically) involves my rage at having gotten turned down for a volunteer opportunity for an institution (one that had previously employed me in a different capacity, in their library).

not good enough for them to let me help other people.

how do you deal with it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:07 / 24.09.05
Syph:

It's means "it is". Its means "belonging to it". Once you have mastered this deadly secret, you will truly be an ipsissississississimus. Fact.
 
 
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00:00 / 25.09.05
expressing bad emotions takes no social competence. getting close enough to another person to express the good emotions takes a kind of ability I do not always have at my disposal.

accessing the Bad Stuff in general takes far less effort because it need not involve other people. you can access it very well all by yourself.


Which looks like being exactly the point : You can take yourself to the darkest parts whenever you want. You can do it straightaway. Taking yourself to the light side of yourself though requires a lot more effort.

Why is that?

You've taken the light part of yourself through the dark places, now take the dark part of yourself through the light places. It might take a bit more effort, but it's worth it. It might be what the journey you're on is all about.
 
 
Ria
00:15 / 25.09.05
Why is that?

for the same reason that people starve to death. because maintaining happiness requires maintenance and unhappiness thrives on entropy.
 
 
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01:15 / 25.09.05
because maintaining happiness requires maintenance and unhappiness thrives on entropy.

Exactly.
 
 
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04:50 / 25.09.05
I actually considered doing a public apology, but decided not to because it seemed to be the cliche thing to do and would most probably of been seen as more drama queening on my part. I don't wish to be in the spotlight all the time. And my anger wasn't so much directed at the entire forum, rather certain individuals who seem to have made it their mission on here to make my life hell. Perhaps I should have told them off in private. Anyway, I apologize for my outburst, if only because innocent people got caught in the crossfire.

On the topic at hand, I don't feel rejected by 98% of society, in fact most of what society does holds little interest with me, especially sex. I think love is possible without sex.

Anth, the issue isn't about being gay or bi. Throughout my life I've referred to myself as straight, then gay, then bi, but the truth of the matter is I really have no sexuality and don't really want a sexual preference. In this aspect I can totally relate to Bret Easton Ellis.

People who nitpick over grammar really irritate me. Geez, don't be so anal.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:33 / 25.09.05
But... but... I thought we were talking about anal. You know, anal RAPE?

What you're doing here is known in the trade as encopresis, Syph. Seeking attention by pooing everywhere. It was previously expressed through your "Please ban me" fest and now it is being expressed through these rather unsavoury speculations. In essence, it's attention-seeking represented as magical act.

So, suggestions. Moving out of your parents' house would be a good start - if they are being too clingy, try telling them that you have been using their Internet connection to look at pictures of boys in speedos. That should help. However, that's a big project, so you might want to start a little smaller. Open the curtains of your bedroom. Now. Then go out for a nice walk. Get some fresh air. Maybe join a book group. This will also help you to read books not about or by Nazis or serial killers. One thing about these books is that they are not usually very well written, and they will inculcate bad habits - for example, a slipshod approach to writing, reading and learning which will undermine your ability to perform magic successfully, if you ever actually get around to doing any.

You claim not to want to be in the spotlight, but you have no real interest in talking about anything apart from yourself, using the stunted metaphorical palate of somebody of limited reading. The best thing you could do would be to engage with other people, but you would have to see them as something other than sources of inspiration for more unprofitable navel-gazing. And so, round and round you go... we've already had this "Ooooh, I've beeen looking at naughty pictures and thinking about RAPE! How darque am I?" thread from you once before, about a year ago, and nothing seems to have changed in the meantime. How is this advancing your practice or your life?
 
 
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12:08 / 25.09.05
Woah, you're making some like serious assumptions there! For starters, I don't just read books with "morbid" subject matter, though I have been leaning heavily in that direction as of recently. In fact I read all types of books and am always looking for new writers to read (most recently it's been Eco and Pynchon). Furthermore, all the "morbid" books I read were most often writers of the highest caliber, though that's open to argument but hey, every guy's entitled to an opinion.

Also, I go for a daily walk almost everyday (except in the summer because that's when the bees are out) and the boys in speedos thing was totally an accident... it's not like I intended to end up on a site involved with boy love, which I think is an utterly horrible political movement. Finally, I don't see this thread as a magical act at all, rather a discussion of a perverted type of magical/psychoanalytical thinking. If someone posts a thread in the Temple, does that mean they are commiting a magical act? No, I don't think so, unless you suscribe to the viewpoint that every deliberate act of willpower is a magical act. What they do is type text and hit "post reply" and hopefully stimulating conversation is the end result. There's no "magic" involved in this process, it's very mechanical.
 
 
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12:12 / 25.09.05
AS for not wanting to be in the spotlight, I said "not all the time" but I will admit I bask in attention. This is only because my ego is enormous and I find myself endlessly fascinating, but this isn't to say I don't find other people fascinating either. It's hard to say stuff like this without sounding shallow, but hey, it worked for Salvador Dali. Besides, everyone wants attention, otherwise, they wouldn't post on message boards (which of course is a way of beaming atention at oneself... same for replying to a post).
 
 
illmatic
12:21 / 25.09.05
Personally, I think everyone should stop offering Sypha advice of any kind. When I worked as a phone counsellor, we offered people's attention seeking strategies, self-contradictions and fobiles back to them, to compel them to have their own realisations, and make their own decisions. Though I recognise the internet is different, I think this would be a good strategy to adopt with the Syph. Every time anyone makes a comment it gives Syph an excuse to talk about himself, his problems yadda yadda yadda. I suspect this serves to "bind energy" in some way or other, chatting about things endlessly rather than engaging with them. Not that I don't use Barbelith to talk about myself, but, y'know... If anybody does want to offer him advice, go for you life, but I predict frustration...

As to the whole serial killer thing ... as others have said, weren't we here about a year ago? A thing that maybe has slipped your attention is that the reason most of these people abuse and torture others is because they been tremendoulsy damaged themselves. As you haven't suffered this kind of abuse, you don't have the same impulses. Fucking simple.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole dark shtick which a lot of magicians go for it simply a cover for the pain that surrounds our more more troubling emotions, those of vulnrbility, tenderness, openess etc. Spare said something like "go where thou fearest most". You can read about serial killers and kid yourself your doing this, being transgressive, but it's as predictable as a frat boy "breaking taboos" (or actually fulfilling expectations) by drunkenly baring his arse. I think any "fear" actually summoned up by looking at borderline child porn, thinking about padeophilia and Ian Brady, is insubstantial and insignificant compared to dealing with the emotions mentioned above, those which make us our most human, and what causes them to arise, other people.
 
 
Anthony
12:27 / 25.09.05
getting a girlfriend, or a boyfriend if you prefer, might go some way towards breaking the narcissistic self-infatuation and the ego-inflation. if you want to do that. if you don't want to do that, fine, carry on down the LHP & hopefully someone will be there to help you pick up the pieces after the inevitable disintegration.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:29 / 25.09.05
Besides, everyone wants attention, otherwise, they wouldn't post on message boards (which of course is a way of beaming atention at oneself... same for replying to a post).

Uhhh... well, no, actually, that's not everyone's primary motivation for posting here, and it's disturbing to me that you would assume this. The primary motivation for posting on a discussion board is... well, discussion. Here in the temple, that means mooting ideas, asking and answering questions, describing experiences, and offering advice.

It's not about grabbing everyone's attention, it's about sharing ideas and information, maybe having a bit of a laugh now and again, maybe getting some human contact. That's different from attention seeking. Attention sharing is a componant of these interactions, maybe, but if one's primary motivation for entering a discussion space is to garner attention from everyone else, one quickly becomes a net negative--a drain on the resources of everyone else involved.
 
  

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