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Solitaire Rose Knows Comics, just ask him!

 
  

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Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:40 / 23.09.05
Do you know anything interesting about Conan comics?

For most fo the 70's, it was Marvel's best selling comic book, and they were able to get the rights for next to nothing...but even paying a little bit didn't sit well with Marvel Publisher Martin Goodman, and he said that they had to put Barry Smith on the book because they could pay him less and make up for the cost of the license fees. In fact, Roy Thomas misquoted to Goodman how much it would be by $50...so he would pay the extra $50 from his page rate so that6 he could do the book.

In the mid-70's, rumor was that Roy got overwhlemed with all of the writing he was doing for Marvel. For an issue of either Conan or Elric, when the artist came in for the plot for the next issue, he ripped a bunch of pages from a paperback book and handed it to the artist and said, "Just draw that."

The "adult stuff" you are talking about was in the Black and White magazine, which John Buscema loved drawing. In fact, one of Buscema's best art jobs is the graphic novel "Conan of the Isles" which is pencilled and inked. Buscema rarely inked his own work, but his work on that one is amazing, and Buscema fans have driven price of it on eBay to over $80 every time it comes up for auction.

When I went to Sandy Eggo in 2001, I chatted a bit with Buscema and told him how much I liked it, and he grabbed my hand and shook it so hard, I thought he'd break it off. We talked horses for abit and the next person in line brought up the Silver Surfer. He visibly rolled his eyes and thanked me for stopping by and started telling the story of Silver Surfer #4 for the bajillionth time.

Marvel's agreement with the REH estate was one where as long as they published a certain number of Conan books a year and paid the fee (which didn't change from the 1970 price), they'd keep the rights. Sales on Conan fell after YEARS of loading the book with artists with no experience, and and after a few half-hearted mini-series, Marvel just let the partnership die...leading Dark Horse to pick up the rights a couple of years ago, along with rights to reprint ALL of the Marvel stuff. The weird thing is that in the 70's and 80's, Marvel tied the Conan stuff into the current Marvel Universe loosely, and now if they reprint any of those books, they'll prolly have to alter it.

As for the "adult stuff off the side of the panels", Conan was Marvel's best selling black and white magazine by FAR, even though Jim Shooter actively hated it, and would tell editors not to pay much attention to it since the only people who bought it were bikers and people who buy tattoo magazines.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:47 / 23.09.05
i wondered if you might like to compare and contrast the works of alan moore and grant morrison and idly speculate on who is winning their magical battle being fought between them via sigils and spells in the comics they have produced in the past many years?

Heh...I'm nowhere near an expert enough to do that, but tomorrow night, I could write my thoughts about the two. Is that good enough?

And in a physical fight, Moore would win. He's older, sneakier and hairier.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
00:47 / 23.09.05
Ha ha! Jim Shooter was such a schmuck. All the boys in my 3rd grade class, except Jonathan Nolan who ate boogers in front of girls, read Conan religiously.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:52 / 23.09.05
Jim Shooter is indeed wrong in the head. I suspect that getting a pro gig at age 14 (writing LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES) screwed up his development—he's basically never had a job, or a life, outside of the comics industry.
 
 
The Falcon
01:03 / 23.09.05
Speaking of, I know a little about the risible feud between John Byrne and Jim Shooter, with the former detonating the latter's hometown of Pittsburgh in Starbrand when he took it's scripting duties - can you detail some of the more pathetic/amusing pro-battles over the years, preferably avoiding the aforementioned Johnny B?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:16 / 23.09.05
Jim Shooter was such a schmuck.

I know Shooter is amazingly devisive, but...

Before he came into power, Marvel was hemmoraging money, and Stan Lee was selling rights to EVERYONE in Hollywood to keep it profitable as newsstand sales and distribution completely collapsed. Marvel suffered from late books and books filled with reprints. I remember that time after time I'd pick up a Marvel comic to find it had two new pages framing a reprint, and usually in the middle of a story.

Avengers #150 was a reprint fer crissakes! They hyped it as an anniversary issue and it was a reprint of #16!!!

Shooter got rid of "writer/editors" and put real editors in place at Marvel; he instituted fillin issues and if creators were late turning in a book he'd have a Mantilo/Sal Buscema issue in the can to drop in; and he knew how to sell to the direct market. He also was good at finding new talent for the first part of his run.

However, he ran into trouble once the company was no longer a sinking ship, and if half of the stories are true, he was impossible to work with...and in my mind, he took Marvel from a time of amazing creativity to some of the blandest comics I have ever read.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:26 / 23.09.05
Jim Shooter is indeed wrong in the head. I suspect that getting a pro gig at age 14 (writing LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES) screwed up his development—he's basically never had a job, or a life, outside of the comics industry.

Not entirely true.

He started writing comics at 13 to help support his family and lived in abject poverty as a child. By the time he was 19, he was washed up in the comics industry and was unable to secure any writing jobs, so he left. He worker various other jobs until he was asked to submit work for Legion again in 1975-1976, and through connections got an editorial job at Marvel right before Archie Goodwin left...and got the job there almost by Default.

He has worked in children's books, and as a licensing agent for Phobos Entertainment since the folding of Defiant comics, and has dabbled in venture capital off and on.

Doesn't mean he's not a nutjob, but he has had jobs outside the comics industry, and will prolly never be involved in the industry again.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:33 / 23.09.05
Fie. Fie on Jim Shooter and his rags-to-riches whatzit.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
01:34 / 23.09.05
can you detail some of the more pathetic/amusing pro-battles over the years, preferably avoiding the aforementioned Johnny B?

The only thing that I know that hasn't been hashed to death is that Byrne got mad and left Marvel over wanting to do an issue of The Incredible Hulk done all in splash pages...Byrne quit Hulk and then called DC and asked to be considered in the "Remake Superman" race.

He's gotten FAR more angry at Current Marvel over their cancelling of his low selling X-Men nostalgia book, and how they ignored his continuity implants "Lost Generation" and "Spider-Man Year One." He blames all of Marvel's problems on their not loving continuity as much as he does.

And he loves it. LOVES TO REWRITE IT!
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:39 / 23.09.05
Spinning off the Byrne side of things for one query, is it known why he left Superman after such a comparatively short time (given the fanfare about the revamp)?

Also, was the Spider-Man black costume really meant to stick around for a while, or was it intentionally short-lived like the electric Superman costume, for example ?

And in the 1980s, DC instituted a two-tier publishing format for their popular titles such as Teen Titans, whereby the ‘deluxe books’ (Baxter paper) would run stories which would be reprinted in the standard (newsprint) format a year later, akin to the hard/paperback publishing of books. I don’t think it lasted very long, but does anyone know how long that was, and if readers of any one format ended up being better or worse off in any way, by missing out on stories or anything ? And if both titles were cancelled, did this happen simultaneously ?

How superhero-centric these queries are… but thanks for any information!
 
 
Aertho
15:57 / 23.09.05
Non-superheroic, and more mechanical:

In Promethea, Moore makes a comment saying comic books - communication that incoporates both word and image - is more easily understood by the conscious mind and retained easier by the memory. The fact that it uses both image and text means that both sides of the brain are used in unison, and that's part of the reason why.

Is that true? Who performed this study? And is there documentation as to the recommended "ideal" for both comprehension and retension?
 
 
buttergun
19:39 / 23.09.05
Solitaire, maybe you can help me. I posted this question about 6 years ago on an alt.-comics forum, and no one knew the answer.

One day back in the late '70s (I'd say around '77-'79), I was at the house of a friend of my family's, and the kids there had a Flash comic that I read. I was only 4 years old or so, and I can't remember much, but for years I've been trying to find it. I think it was oversized, larger than the average comic (though since I was so young, everything seemed oversized!). I recall it as being about the same size as the first issue of GI Joe (not sure if the regular edition of that comic was like this, but my GI Joe #1 was huge). Other than the size, and that it was a Flash comic, I seem to recall that the story was about a group of Flash's enemies getting together and ganging up on him. I think there was a panel where Flash, beaten, had blood running from his nose.

That's all I remember. It might not've even been a Flash comic, maybe some DC Special something or other. But if this rings any bells for you, and you know what comic I'm talking about, I'd love to know. Thanks!
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:09 / 24.09.05
My first comic was, I think, Thor, though it may've been Silver Surfer or Rom. There was a giant flying around in space that had mouths in the palms of his hands and he was eating all the hero's friends. Does that sound familiar, Rose?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:50 / 25.09.05
Spinning off the Byrne side of things for one query, is it known why he left Superman after such a comparatively short time (given the fanfare about the revamp)?

Byrne has said that it is because he didn’t feel that DC Management supported him enough. There was an article critical of his revamp in Time Magazine for Superman’s 50th anniversary, and Byrne was upset about it. He’d also done about 50 Superman stories over 2 years, and might have burned out, but only he knows that.

Also, was the Spider-Man black costume really meant to stick around for a while, or was it intentionally short-lived like the electric Superman costume, for example ?

Tom DeFalco said that the “alien aspect” of the costume was to be short-lived, but that the response was so big that they kept the costume itself around. There were rumors that they would have the new costume in one of the Spidey books and the old one in another, but kept with the black one because the artists preferred drawing it.

And in the 1980s, DC instituted a two-tier publishing format for their popular titles such as Teen Titans, whereby the ‘deluxe books’ (Baxter paper) would run stories which would be reprinted in the standard (newsprint) format a year later, akin to the hard/paperback publishing of books. I don’t think it lasted very long, but does anyone know how long that was, and if readers of any one format ended up being better or worse off in any way, by missing out on stories or anything ? And if both titles were cancelled, did this happen simultaneously ?

It lasted about two years, and I think it overworked the creative teams. By the end, Perez had left Teen Titans, Giffen had left Legion and Outsiders was cancelled and the cheaper version had died out. The way they ran it was that both hardcover and softcover books had new stories for the first year, with the hardcover books being set ahead of the softcover ones…then after the first year, the cheaper ones reprinted the expensive ones that were a year old. What happened was that the first year everyone bought both, then the second year, sales on the softcover ones completely collapsed. The softcovers were cancelled around the same time, but the hardcovers cancellations were all at different times.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:51 / 25.09.05
In Promethea, Moore makes a comment saying comic books - communication that incoporates both word and image - is more easily understood by the conscious mind and retained easier by the memory. The fact that it uses both image and text means that both sides of the brain are used in unison, and that's part of the reason why.

Is that true? Who performed this study? And is there documentation as to the recommended "ideal" for both comprehension and retension?


No study that I have found...it is part and parcel of Moore's philosophy, so it is most assuredly his opinion.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:53 / 25.09.05
One day back in the late '70s (I'd say around '77-'79), I was at the house of a friend of my family's, and the kids there had a Flash comic that I read. I was only 4 years old or so, and I can't remember much, but for years I've been trying to find it. I think it was oversized, larger than the average comic (though since I was so young, everything seemed oversized!). I recall it as being about the same size as the first issue of GI Joe (not sure if the regular edition of that comic was like this, but my GI Joe #1 was huge). Other than the size, and that it was a Flash comic, I seem to recall that the story was about a group of Flash's enemies getting together and ganging up on him. I think there was a panel where Flash, beaten, had blood running from his nose.

There hasn't been an oversized (tabloid/treasury) Flash comic...but in the 70's, there were a few 100 page comics of Flash, and many of his stories from the late 60's/early 70's were about the Rogue's Gallery teaming up to defeat him. I wouldn't have more info on it than that, since I didn't read DC in the 70's.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:59 / 25.09.05
My first comic was, I think, Thor, though it may've been Silver Surfer or Rom. There was a giant flying around in space that had mouths in the palms of his hands and he was eating all the hero's friends. Does that sound familiar, Rose?

Not really.

But in the 70's, there were a lot of weird stories from Marvel, simply because there was only one editor at a time, and most of the time they didn't pay a lot of attention to what people were doing.

If you give me a time-frame, I could look through issues of those books and see what was going on in them.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
15:13 / 25.09.05
i wondered if you might like to compare and contrast the works of alan moore and grant morrison and idly speculate on who is winning their magical battle being fought between them via sigils and spells in the comics they have produced in the past many years?

As I know NOTHING about the magical battles but int he comics battles:

Moore's work has gotten him a lot of acclaim, and he is loved by a small audience that seems to be shrinking all the time. Part of it is that he hasn't done a mainstream Marvel or DC book in over 20 years, so, quite simply, the vast majority of comics fans have no idea who he is. He is largely responcible for the growth of adult themes in comics and a more literary was of writing...but there are too many people who blindly imitate him without quite understanding what he was doing with his stylistic tricks. I STILL think it was funny when DC started turning all of their mainor characters into elementals because Moore had done it in Swamp Thing.

Morrison started as an obscure writer who most mainstream fans disliked because of "Arkham Asylum." When AA was advertised, the ads made it seem like it was a Fight Fest, and when it was a psychological drama, the fanboys howled. I am pretty sure that it is STILL the most profitable product DC ever put out, but after it came out, Morrison did minor series like Animal Man and Doom Patrol (no bricks tossed at me...we may love them, but they rarely if ever cracked the top 100 selling comics). I remember on discussion groups in the mid 90's, people said he made things weird just to show off, and his stories would be hetter if he just made "wrote them normally." When he was tapped to restart JLA, fanboys howled AGAIN, saying he would make it a Vetigo book, it would be weird for weirdnesses sake. When JLA became a huge hit, there were still a contingent of fanboys who yell and scream when he takes over a comic...most of them are on Newsarama. Now, Morrison is helping rebuild the DC Universe and is probably one of the most influential comics writers currently...much like Morrison was in the 80's.

So...who's winning? Anyone who buys their books, as Moore's ABC line is a blast to read, and Morrison makes mainstream superhero stuff interesting.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:27 / 25.09.05
I wasn't entirely serious about that last question, SR. The earliest it could've been was '79, and it could've been as late as, uh, '83?

Morrison definitely does make things weird just to show off.
 
 
This Sunday
23:34 / 25.09.05
This may be me and my ego, but what is writing if not 'showing off' then? Any art or communication that has an entertainment angle? From Manet to King Kirby to Raymond Chandler and Billy Wilder... showing off, showing off, showing off.
And comics aren't really the medium to start trying to outweird everyone in, because frankly, comics have a higher concentration of completely WIERD STUFFS (TM). Friend-consuming handmouths of spacegods! Wealthy libertines wrapped in golden iron that holds their heart together! Death on skis! Ostrich buggering! The goddamn Batman!
But this isn't a thread for that, so, ye olde founder of thread: Weirdest more showy-offy comic you can think of would be...?
 
 
A
06:19 / 26.09.05
A couple of half-answers to questions which vex even the Mighty Solitaire Rose.

1- The study that Moore seems to be citing in Promethea was, if I remember correctly, commissioned by the US Army. I remember seeing the actual figures regarding the various retention rates of different media printed somewhere, although I don't remember where (could it have been in Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics?).

2- I believe I have read a black and white Australian reprint of the issue of the Flash in question. I don't know the issue number, but here's what I remember-

The Flash (it was Barry Allen at this point) had been charged with murder after breaking the neck of the Reverse Flash while preventing him from murdering his fiancee on their wedding day. Members of the Flash's Rogues Gallery (which features Captain Cold, the Weather Wizard, Mirror Master, Captain Boomerang,the Trickster and others- I'm not exactly sure which ones were in this comic) got together and manipulated this enormous mace-wielding simpleton type called Big Sir into atttacking the Flash as he left the courthouse. The Flash copped a mace in the face, but was able to flee Big Sir, and ran to a nearby park where he passed out. Some kids saw this, and one of them decided to sneak a peak at the Flash's face while he was out. The last panel was a shot of the Flash's messed-up, bleeding, beaten-in face.

I would guess that this comic was from the late 70's or early 80's.
 
 
doctorbeck
06:56 / 26.09.05
the most erudite thinking on moore vs morrison that i have read

my thanks
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:48 / 26.09.05
Power Pack. What's up with that? I seem to recall that Alex Power had the combined powers of the whole Power family and was in the New Warriors, and then the New Warriors broke up or something (and what's up with _that_?) and now Lightspeed is in Excelsior talking about Peter Jackson. Help me, Solitaire Rose!
 
 
Bed Head
10:02 / 26.09.05
My first comic was an All-Star Super-Squad drawn by Wally Wood (Superman with grey streaks in his hair! The Star-Spangled Kid! Vandal Savage looking like Terence Stamp! Fucking ace). Please tell me about Wally Wood. I mean, I already kinda know about Wally Wood, but I’d really like to hear the Rose verdict when you have the time.
 
 
sleazenation
10:11 / 26.09.05
Powerpack has been rebooted and reimagined back to where it was circa 1985 in a manga stylee, which is probably for the best considering how horriby fucked up the whole thing became by the end of the first series...
 
 
buttergun
13:29 / 26.09.05
Count Adam, thanks for the reply! I do know that issue, but I think it was from '84 or so.

It's strange, I think that "giant-sized" Flash I saw in the late '70s is what made me a comics fan (I think it was the first comic I ever read). So I have always had a soft spot for it, I just don't know what it was!

I've never been a Flash fan, but years later, when I was buying comics of my own, the issue you're referring to was one of the first I bought. But yeah, I rememember the big dumb guy with the mace -- he had that typical '80s get-up with the sci-fi goggle, etc, but yet didn't have anything covering his bald head.
 
 
Aertho
19:26 / 26.09.05
Hey Solitaire!

Can we do an analysis of the archetypes Kirby used in forming his new gods?

Orion = Thor/Ares
Barda = Amazons/Valkyries
Darkseid = Ares/Satan/Set

Does Mister Miracle = Jesus?
 
 
Benny the Ball
19:36 / 26.09.05
Hey Solitaire - what's the deal with Captain Atom, is he going into the Wildstorm universe because DC are trying to kill off all the Charlton characters from their continuity, or some other reason?
 
 
This Sunday
20:12 / 26.09.05
Darkseid is not Ares - Orion is all the Wargoddiness.
And Jesus was that Lightray feller. Basically, between those two, Orion and Lightray (is that his name?) there's a fairly clear marking out of the old-style and messiah/doctor new-style of Godding.
Darkseid is desire-to-control, to crush, to override. Darkseid is, baby, die for Darkseid!
Barda is the warrior woman. Artemis and Diana and Amazons and a buncha other types.
Mister Miracle is Jesus when he escapes off the cross, and otherwise, he's the Mercury of the bunch. If Mercury regularly put on some human-shoes and went walking the earth.
Desaad is cruelty and sadism. Hence the name.
Granny Goodness is the barbed-wire evilmother.
Highfather is our feary father above but more peaceful.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:13 / 28.09.05
Work is kicking my ass (I have to walk someone out tomorrow, and we have about 80 hours a week to fill yet), so I'll be checking in this weekend.

The thing about Kirby's New Gods is that he was really not trying to use any old archetypes (and did anyway) but was trying to create Gods that had relevence today...kind of like how the Forever People were each a Hippy stereotype, the Hairies were motorcycle gangs, and Orion was the hero at the mercy of his upbringing and dark side...but was fighting to overcome it.

It was also a way for Kirby to talk about how he saw the war in Vietnam, how science was going to move us forward...

And to me, the most interesting part of the series is The Anti-Life equasion. No matter what rvisionist bullshit there has been, the "Anti-life" was not death, but the loss of choice...which for the time in a 15 cent comic book was pretty deep. Then Starlin came along and made the Anti-Life equasion a living being that killed people.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:16 / 28.09.05
Hey Solitaire - what's the deal with Captain Atom, is he going into the Wildstorm universe because DC are trying to kill off all the Charlton characters from their continuity, or some other reason?

Because since DC offed The Authortity because they don't like having Superman and Batman kissing, no one is buying any of their books...and Captian Atom hasn't sold to anyone since 1991, so why not try to show that inter-universe stuff can happen.

No one will care, though. Captain Atom is pretty inherantly a dated character and needs a complete makeover along the lines of the one they did for him in the late 80's...and I actually didn't mind the series DC did, but I have a soft spot in my heart for Pat Broderick's art.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:19 / 28.09.05
Does Mister Miracle = Jesus?

No. Mister Miracle = Jim Sternanko.

And it was a counterpoint to Orion, and meant to be his exact opposite.

Kirby was Jewish, so I don't think he would make a Jesus analogy per-se, especially since Scott Free didn't want to save the world, he just wanted to be lieft alone to live his life, and not have anything to do with the war between New Genesis and Apokolypse.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:22 / 28.09.05
I'll answer the others when I get an evening off...but the Flash story has a LOT of interesting stuff involved. The writer on the first Flash series was going to do a year long "Trial of the Flash" story, but when Crisis started up, they stretched the story for TWO YEARS, and the issue you read was part of that story. The next part of it was that her got massive plastic surgery and Barry Allen was declared dead.

It was a painfully bad piece of crap, and is why Flash was cancelled prematurely...sales fell off to the point where Flash was the worst selling DC super-hero book being published by the time it ended, and it was also why people were VERY surprised when the Wally West Flash series sold well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:31 / 28.09.05
Butbutbutbut... if Power Pack have been returned to their 1985 state (preteen, living at home with their parents), how can Julie Power be in Excelsior? I say thee NAY!
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
11:36 / 28.09.05
Butbutbutbut... if Power Pack have been returned to their 1985 state (preteen, living at home with their parents), how can Julie Power be in Excelsior? I say thee NAY!

The most recent Power Pack mini-series is not in continuity. It reads to me like the pitch for an animated cartoon.

Odd fact, Power Pack had a live action pilot in the late 80's and nearly made it to a prime time series...and the parents were pased on Walt and Louise Simonson.
 
  

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