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Are There Any Transvestites in The Audience?

 
  

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elene
08:42 / 08.09.05
I don't believe that can change easily, Quiet&Relaxed, and that's why we're
still at this stage.

I think gender exists to facilitate an economy between the sexes. Even in the
absence of systematic inequality between the sexes, or even between individuals,
gendering is enforced by our fear of lacking value and desire to be seen as more
valuable.

As long as one sex is more valued and privileged than the other, and men remain
more valued and privileged than woman in general, gender will delineate the
boundary between these two classes. Even in the absence of a systematic
disparity between the sexes I'm sure gender exists between the rich of one sex
and the poor of the other. But were all these criteria negated some males would
still see themselves as superior to an inappropriately gendered male, and many
more would see themselves threatened, merely due to the pressures of existing in
a sexual economy and therefore possessing a relative worth, and these feelings,
if sufficiently ubiquitous, will be propagated and amplified by socialization.
 
 
Silver
12:19 / 08.09.05
I dress because I enjoy it -- I like the clothes, the way they feel, I enjoy being "pretty." Sometimes. Other times, I do it because it gives a sexual thrill. Other times because it helps me to relax. Are my reasons all hopelessly comingled? Yes.

I have had a hard time with self-acceptance because of society's view of a transvestite/crossdresser/whatever being an aberration. I have been told all TVs are perverts who really want to be women. For the longest time, I believed that to be true. Now I know better.

Is transvestite a label created by a society that does not understand? Absolutely.

I know what I am, but I am not able to explain it to the average person who doesn't understand -- and doesn't want to. I believe that we should evolve to a point where clothes no longer make the man, but we are not at that point yet.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:09 / 08.09.05
Sorry to be pedantic, but the correct term is transvestism, as read in sexology texts, rather than transvesticism. Much easier to pronounce.

I'm interested in the various dimensions of the term 'transvestite' and differences between that, cross-dressing, drag and/or wearing clothing of the 'opposite gender' that's not related to a specific gender identity issue. So this is my rambly set of ideas...

I thought that transvestite was going out of fashion as a term people used to describe themselves. Until recently I'd never met anyone who identified hirself as a transvestite, in fact. The one person I do know who id's as a transvestite considers himself male, wears make-up, frocks etc often, but not always. For many gender variant people I know, 'transvestite' is like the 'bad' gender dysphoria label you can get saddled with in a shrink's office when you're actually after the 'good' label, transsexual. Being diagnosed as TV means you won't be allowed to get surgery etc. Sexologically, people like Benjamin, Stoller etc tended to categorise gender variant people as one or the other. Also I've never heard of an ftm transvestite: other labels -- butch, stud, passing woman, transbutch, genderqueer -- might cover that terrain in masculine-identified contexts.

I've been reading a trans memoir called Crossing, by Deirdre McCloskey, who writes that in the UK, 'transvestite' is accepted usage for those who crossdress without it being fetishism, or sexual. In the US, however, tranvestism is understodd as fetishistic or sexualised cross-dressing, while 'cross-dresser' denotes someone who doesn't do it for sexual reasons, but rather gender identity. 'Cross-dresser', in that US context, seems more related to Virginia Prince's definition of 'transgenderist' -- married, respectable male-to-female folk who live their male lives in the professions and dress up at conventions, on holiday or in the privacy of their homes; or who live and pass as women but don't take hormones or have surgery. (This was what 'transgender' was coined to describe, originally.)

I'd say the distinctions between dressing as 'fetish' or 'gender id' are pretty heavily invested with value: ie, that to experience sexual pleasure from dressing is wrong and somehow pathological, or that to be 'respectable' it's necessary to distance onself from sexualised connotations -- Frank'N'Furter, anyone? -- and cross-dressing as a signifer of queerness. Anyhow, those are my thoughts.
 
 
*
15:42 / 08.09.05
Quiet, I do believe if gender didn't exist people would find something else to violate with dress, such as class. Class transgression is a form of transvestism people aren't making very much of right now. If no categories for people existed at all, people would make some up.

I don't see anything wrong with having gender. I do see something wrong with gender being the limited, restrictive system that it is. Having no gender could end up being just as oppressive.
 
 
*
15:48 / 08.09.05
Mister, you should check out this article by Raven Kaldera:

...or, in other words, when Daddy wears a fake moustache, has bound breasts and refers to his boy's tits as "pecs"....or when the boy shaves male pattern baldness "points" into his hairline and gets wet over wearing a baseball cap......or when the hottest part of the scene for both is when the boy is on his knees sucking his daddy's huge realistic strap-on cock while rapidly jerking his own......I'm sorry, guys, but it's fetishistic cross-dressing.

Not all the people I spoke to denied this; in fact some outspokenly admitted their kink. Tannin, a bisexual woman who cross-dresses regularly as her male persona, says: "I identify as a transvestite, with all the ambiguities and sexual connotations and all that, but the thing I share with my transsexual brothers and sisters is the underriding demon of 'who will want me?' FTM TVs are invisible, beyond invisible, mythical creatures! I have to explain that TV stands for transvestite, not television. We aren't acknowledged."

Rob, an FTM transsexual who "very definitely started out as a fetishistic transvestite", ruefully sums up the problem: "Most people who want women in bed, don't like men in bed. That goes especially for men, since statistically fewer men are Kinsey threes in the middle. I've also found that most bi men want either men or women, not someone who's in between. The few exceptions are the ones who want she-males or chicks with dicks, which I'm not, or they want a femmy or lightly butch 'lesbian' with a strap-on, but they don't want to actively pretend that she's a guy. And that's what I needed, that's what I wanted.....and I had a terrible time finding it."
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:32 / 08.09.05
Interesting article. More later but can I just say

*swooon*
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:26 / 08.09.05
(the correct term is transvestism, as read in sexology texts, rather than transvesticism. Much easier to pronounce.

Glad you cleared that up because I'd been wondering if I was using the right word everytime I wrote it.)
 
 
Ex
08:58 / 09.09.05
Quiet, I also don't like the gender system much, but I'm not sure saying 'this term shouldn't exist', helps get rid of it. Did you mean that people identifying as transvestites is actually preserving the gender system? Sorry if this wasn't what you meant. As you said, 'people are still defining themselves by their gender roles' - and most people's gender roles match their biological sex, and they're heterosexual, and they've never thought about any of that much. And I think that's the mainstay of gender, not a few people clinging white-knuckled onto the word 'transvestite' in the face of a hurricane of gender-breakdown.

Anyway. I should contribute, not just nitpick. I'm intrigued by Sentimentity and Mister Disco's observations, which added together and mashed up show attempts by people to lever apart sexual 'transvestism' from non-sexual 'cross-dressing' and gender-identity based 'transexuality' - in order to get various things for the latter groups, including social respect, and access to controlled medical resources.
(This is hard to put tactfully, so please excuse my temerity, or timidity whichever you feel I've displayed) I agree with Mister Disco in that I can see that this uses leverage from a general social value system that equates sex and queerness with low worth. So while it may seem perfectly sensible, and socially useful, to categorically distance oneself from the sexual aspects of an activity if it isn't directly sexual for you, I think it's a very tricky activity. It does rather leave people who eroticise cross-dressing in the lurch, socially and possibly politically. This isn't an individual condemnation - you can totally be a transexual and an ally to transvestites, and historically different 'queer' communities have massively overlapped and supported each other. It's rather a furious gripe that the system sets potential allies against one another and causes fragmentation by making them jump for social rewards and acceptance.

I like Ricki Anne Wilchins because she takes cross-dressing seriously. She says in Genderqueer that a man in a dress has never really been considered the subject of a political movement, he's always been the punchline of a joke. She does seem to imply that with more social acceptance, more transvestite men would move into identifying as transgendered, dressing more often or in public, or identifying as transexual and transitioning, which I'm not sure of - it's a good way of expressing the fact that many people would feel freer to do so, but it almost shades into the idea that cross-dressers are transexuals with less nerve - a kind of liberation model, where the true transexuality gets squashed, then released. Obviously often the case, but not a model I'd want to apply across the board - I think the truth's more complex.

And in brief: I liked Silver's comments that feeling 'pretty', feeling relaxed and feeling sexy obviously all overlap. I don't really know how my sexuality, my (lack of) gender identity, my general self-image and my clothing connect. When I came out to my father as bisexual, he chose to interpret that as a kind of transexuality - he waffled about everyone being a bit more male or a bit more female. I thought of reciting the standard 'correcting misapprehensions about LGB people' line ('No, that's gender identity, not sexuality'). But then I thought - I may also have to explain about my gender identity later, though. And this gives him an explanation for the men's suits, and the hair (hadn't started with the ties, by then). Which is the most visible sign of my whole queerness - I didn't have a girlfriend, but he did see me most days in men's clothes. And eventually, I was glad I didn't artificially divide this thing, then end up saying 'actually, I'm both', when this thing that I am is one thing, to me. So my father continues to have a confused understanding of the standard definitions of gender identity, sexuality and cross-dressing, but a better understanding of me. He still wants me to get a handbag, though.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:09 / 09.09.05
I really like that Raven Kaldera article, and I like the way he (he?) reclaims fetishism as the powerful, sexy, mind-blowing act it is. I wouldn't have ever referred to myself as a 'FTV' but that was me 7-5 years ago, to an extent. I was a boy sexually, living as a woman, before I ever knew I wanted to become one 'fulltime'.

Nevertheless, I still think the distinctions between TV and TS are far more blurry than even Kaldera argues.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:10 / 09.09.05
Quiet and Relaxed People are still defining themselves by their gender roles. If this were not the case than the concept of "transvestite" would not exist.

Ri-ight. Now, sorry, but I'm going to have to press you on this. How do we stop people defining themselves by their gender role?
 
 
*
16:34 / 09.09.05
Ex: My father did the opposite. When I tried to explain about my gender identity he assumed I was talking about my sexuality, and he still gets these things confused. I think I should get that squared away since he's just started a GSA at the high school he teaches at...

Raven does a good job in his article, I think. He does, as I recall, bring up the fact that some people start out identifying as TV and then move into being TS, and there are many different reasons for doing that. It's a short article, intended to be introductory.

I've spent a lot of time on a crossdresser/transwoman board and, possibly due to the demographics there, the distinction between crossdressing and transsexuality is explained as a sort of "slippery slope," sometimes half-jesting and sometimes in all earnestness.

In the face of all this "gender is the oppressive product of our fucked-up society" sturm und drang, can I venture into the cheerful breeze of "gender is fun and useful"? I tried my damnedest to live without gender for most of my life. Now that I accept that I have gender and the freedom to play with it, I'm a lot happier and I know myself better. This doesn't mean nothing needs to change about the binary or the hierarchy, but doing away with gender altogether is not the answer. That's just as oppressive. What are you going to do, tell me I can't have a gender? How liberating is that?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:13 / 15.09.05
Is gender perhaps the fun part of the whole gender-'physical sex of body' axis? (I was about to roll off into a long 'is the transvestite the 'happy clown' part of the angst of self-expression' which I immediately thought was taking things way too far)
 
 
elene
06:11 / 16.09.05
I don't think a transvestite can take things too far, Flowers, and I think
your image of the "happy clown" is more accurate than the notion of gender
as intrinsically happy. I suppose you mean gender/body in its angstladen
dysphoric trannyproblematische sense though.

I think gender is like a job.
 
 
Silver
10:44 / 20.09.05
"Happy clown?" I'm not following. Please elaborate?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:57 / 22.09.05
Oh God, looking back a week later I'm not sure what I meant, which is probably why I left that train of thought in the sidings.

I think I was going for transvesticism being something that can take delight in and play with the differences, contradictions and simularities between genders. I had a lot of angst and feelings of being in a body of the wrong sex which I think only shifted and I only really started to deal with sensibly when I started playing with things as a transvestite. I think.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:58 / 02.10.05
Even a man's suit, if cut to fit you (a female body) vaguely well does not look particularly transgressive.

Well, that depends on where and how you wear it: some things that have happened to me when in a man's suit:

(a) called "manimal" and "transsexual" in the street (the latter when I was wearing lipstick as well as a suit and tie - in fact on that occasion I wasn't wearing a man's suit at all, it was a women's trouser suit and cut as such)

(b) hit across the shins with a stick to stop me entering the women's toilets at a bus station.

None of these things bothered me, as it happens (more like delighted me) but it's not the case that women in masculine clothes never get into trouble.

Will respond more thoughtfully soon. Lovely thread, people.
 
 
Ganesh
07:51 / 04.10.05
I think I was going for transvesticism being something that can take delight in and play with the differences, contradictions and simularities between genders.

This strikes a chord. I suspect it's also connected to some of the psychiatric angst underlying gender clinic procedure. If transvesticism is driven by delight in exploring the differences and contradictions between genders, then there's perhaps an anxiety on the part of NHS 'gatekeepers' that that exuberant gender play not be limited by irreversible surgical modification which might subsequently be regretted.

Hmmm...
 
 
*
05:34 / 05.10.05
Relevant article in the Advocate yesterday:

While researchers have yet to quantify the trend, Ryan says that in the last five years she's seen more young people coming out as transsexual—those who believe they are one gender trapped in the body of the other. She and others in her field also are seeing a noticeable number of young people who are taking it further by purposely evading gender definition.

They are "gender-fluid," expressing androgyny with wardrobe, hairstyle, or makeup—sometimes going as far as calling themselves a "boi" or a "grrl."...

To some youth, playing with gender identity and roles is as much about fun and self-expression as anything. "There's a kind of tongue-in-cheek aspect to it," Ryan says, "as well as a celebration of oneself."
 
 
Redcurrant Jelly
19:02 / 22.10.05
a man in a dress has never really been considered the subject of a political movement, he's always been the punchline of a joke.

And in that statement, the whole angst of transvestism gets wrapped up in a nutshell.

My question is thus how far is the idea of transvesticism imposed by society?

I would argue that it's totally imposed by society. If there weren't clearly defined roles for men and women that are instilled from early ages, then there would be no point to what I do. In a way, transvestism needs boundaries, otherwise what boundaries would it cross?

What concerns me though, is that there's something inherently misogynistic about what I do every time I put on a dress. That in some way, transvestism relies on misogyny and sexism to exist. That underneath the seemingly harmless facade of pantomime, and transgression, and fashion-radicalism, there lies some kind of assumption that the reasons I do what I do are based on "wrongness" - and the reasons they're wrong are because men shouldn't 'demean' themselves by trying to be women.

The debates above, that concentrate on whether or not it's easy for a woman to crossdress, seem to be centred around the notion of "empowerment". But it seems it's the complete opposite when men do it. It becomes about submission, about losing control. What scares me, is that a large majority of online "transvestite" activity seems to operate in a space that's devoid of any clear thought about political issues that may or may not be the outcomes of what goes on.

Bugger. I was really hoping that the first thing I ever said here would be rational and well-thought-through
 
 
*
00:55 / 23.10.05
Jelly, I can't judge your motivations, but I know crossdressers and transvestites for whom dressing is no more misogynistic an act than my tying my shoelaces. I'd really like to explore this further with you, if you feel up to it. I don't want to invade your privacy by asking you intrusive questions, so I'm going to speculate about the situation in general, and you can feel free to correct my heading if I drift too far off base.

It seems as if the juxtaposition of crossdressing with submissiveness takes its most sublime form in forced-feminization fantasies and roleplay. Because this is one of the most prominent examples of what you've just described, I'm going to act as if we're only talking about erotic genderplay and erotic submission. Obviously erotic transvestism has different meanings from other kinds, but I'm going to limit my thinking to that for a moment.

Now, I speculate, based on my experiences and those of other people that I've been told about, that there are two different factors in forced-fem type fantasies— the genderplay and the submissiveness. The way they interact is, I think, more complex than what you've described so far. Often, submissiveness gives us permission to explore desires that are considered wrong, and genderplay allows us to experience sexuality in a way which is not ordinarily available to us. I agree that genderplay almost always relies on some stereotypes about male and female social roles, but I don't think it necessarily has to reify these roles in a way which must be regarded as harmful. For instance, someone whose tendency is to be submissive, and also to genderplay femininely, may be interested in not having the responsibility of the sexual interaction, and being permitted, even encouraged, to be receptive of sensation. Some transvestites have reported in my hearing that dressing seems to give them permission to be more sensual. Is this based on a stereotype? Hell yeah. Is it misogynist? I don't think I'd go that far. Also, some transvestites are married to women, or have sex with women, and sometimes these women are the dominant partner. How does that work out in a picture of transvestism as an inherently male-superior type activity?

One more possibly analogous example: What would you say to a gay man who was sexually submissive to other men, and liked to be teased about being effeminate during sex? Is this an inherently homophobic act? It is certainly a form of genderplay, albeit not crossdressing, and it seems to be associating effeminacy with submission. If it is homophobic, is it doing harm?

There are fewer female-to-male erotic transvestites, it seems, but among them at least some are submissive when they dress as well, and there are at least enough dominant male-to-female crossdressers for it to be a significant trope in some people's fantasies. I think if we are to assume that transvestism always reifies systematic misogyny, we have to also assume that all BDSM play does as well, and that's not been my experience. I think political understandings of power don't always map onto sexual understandings of power very neatly. This will take more thought, of course, and I plan to come back to it.

Anyway, Jelly, welcome to the boards. What you've brought up has been very interesting so far. Also, just in case you haven't seen it yet, I recommend the My Husband Betty boards if you'd like to explore this with other TVs/CDs, trans women, and non-trans women in a space where people are critical of the political implications of crossdressing.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:25 / 24.10.05
[threadrot]

I was really hoping that the first thing I ever said here would be rational and well-thought-through

Whereas I was really hoping that the first thing you* ever said in the Headshop would be honest, personal, courageous, reflective and politically informed, so I say hooray!

*Um, not 'you' personally. I don't know who you are. Just people in general.

[/threadrot]
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:44 / 25.10.05
but it's not the case that women in masculine clothes never get into trouble.

Yeah but into trouble with the type of person who thinks its acceptable to hit you round the shins with a stick... I mean, talk about mid-twentieth century. It's a bit 1960's "ooh that skirt that doesn't quite cover your knees is so shhhooorrttt" Daily Mail transgressive. I don't think the general public would think it out of line if I said that the stick-wielder or manimal commenter was a little reactionary.
 
 
grant
14:08 / 18.05.06
The San Francisco Chronicle today has an interesting piece on a cross-dressing TV host. What makes it interesting is that this isn't a Dame Edna knock-off – it's a show produced in Pakistan. And is apparently a big hit.



At night, Ali Salim becomes Nawazish Ali, who pushes boundaries other people can't:

On one recent evening, Ali sneered at the lipstick worn by an actress, then turned to Aitzaz Ehsan, a well-know Supreme Court lawyer. "Would you mind if I call you 'Easy'?" she purred, batting her eyelids. "It's so much easier on the tongue."

and
Salim says the show gives a light, frivolous face to Pakistan -- in contrast to the images of poverty, fanaticism and abuse of women he says Western media tend to focus on.
"Every time I turn on BBC or Fox News, there are bombs going off in Pakistan. It's so pathetic. But we are a people with a rich culture and a rich tradition. And we are people who just want to have fun," he said.
There is also a sharp political sensibility behind the saucy humor. Begum Nawazish Ali pokes fun at Musharraf, President Bush and Pakistan's religious right. "That's why we wanted to do it in character -- because she can get away with things a real person cannot," he said.
 
 
Ticker
19:19 / 15.06.06
I don't call myself a TV because I believe my relationship to drag is more about needing to find the space to mix my gender identifiers than to use any one set.

I wear a lot of skins, these are symbolic identities built around gender and power, either taking more power or exchanging it for a different kind. For me there are parts of my personality I feel only manifest when I'm wearing a certain set of identifiers.

It's a lot like rooms of a house for me. I use to pass as male, or a butch dyke, or a normal business woman, or usually as a goth ch1x0r. Though with my decision to get hand tattoos I've made the business skin harder to pull off. Drag for me is about levels of social privilege, sexual expansion, and magical shape shifting.

There are states of being I associate with certain kinds of drag. The hardest one for me has always been the feminine drag. I admit I often carry myself when in it as a lot like an uncertain new male TV trying on hir pumps for the first time. In a school girl's outfit I feel the most profound sense of transgression, like a wolf in sheep's clothing. By blurring myself I force people to interact with me on a different playing field.

When I was younger I was always trying to be comfortable passing for what I was gender assigned at birth. Unfortunately the choice of female skins I was taught about never fit quite right and so I blurred the other way. This also created a huge amount of resentment in me as I learned to take power using the male gendered skins. Somehow I also managed to take a dose of misogyny into the mix. Once free to expand my sense of self empowerment in male drag I resented all aspects of my femaleness. It took me a long time to learn about other female skins and to feel free creating skins that were neither. Eventually in my twenties I was able to use body modification to establish a better dialogue with my body and BDSM to establish a better language for my sexuality.

I select a skin based on my needs. If I need to be something in the world I'll put on the required drag to access those parts of myself or to act through a role. I have sexual fetishes that are classic in the sense that if the fetish is not present I cannot have a fulfilling sexual experience. The cornerstone of my sexuality is gender ambiguity, (or inclusion) and transgression.

I've come to inhabit my female body with much joy. My freedom stems from knowing I am not limited to being one interpretation of any given gender. When little kids ask me if I'm a boy or a girl I tell them both.
 
  

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