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Whatever 'In Love' Means

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Cat Chant
12:48 / 12.08.05
Oh, and I'm also interested in the idea of familial love vs romantic love as it pertains to a teleology of marriage - the assumption that the one you love will become part of your family. (I was thinking about "disgracing the family name" recently, and about how since I will never marry someone and get her to change her surname to mine [ie my father's], or have babies to carry on the family name, the 'public face' of my family name is all about my publications...)
 
 
Spaniel
12:54 / 12.08.05
Evil, you most certainly did say "contract". Bad Boboss!

I was hoping someone would bring polyamory into this. Not only does polyamory pose a serious challenge to conventional construtions of romantic love, it also could be used to unpick certain assumptions about how monogamous relationships *should be*.
 
 
Spaniel
12:58 / 12.08.05
...and, in the case of Evil, and I'm sure many others, *are*.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:47 / 12.08.05
It's curious how difficult it seems to be for people to accept that someone has never experienced romantic love and isn't particularly bothered by that fact. It is a cultural stereotype (as evidenced by Gumbitch's friendly jibe) that people who aren't in a relationship or actively seeking one might have some kind of emotional or psychological problem.

Hello Jack, glad to hear from you.

Yes, although I didn't explicitly say it, I don't consider a relationship "romantic" just because it is sexual in nature. I don't think anyone would be in disagreement that it is possible to have such a relationship platonically.

With regards to polyamory. It's not a term I've heard before. I'll have a read of the Head thread and get back to you on it.

By the by. Congratulations on your forthcoming progeny Boboss.
 
 
Spaniel
14:55 / 12.08.05
Thanking yew muchly.

It's curious how difficult it seems to be for people to accept that someone has never experienced romantic love and isn't particularly bothered by that fact.

Whether or not you wish to experience romantic love is neither here nor there, as far as I'm concerned - each to their own, and all that - but in some of your earlier posts you seem to be suggesting that romantic love is of itself a bad thing, and that everyone who "contracts" it is to be pitied much as we would pity the sick.

You can see how that might provoke a response, no?
 
 
captain piss
15:54 / 12.08.05
I think I fall in love more often than most. Three times in the past year, certainly… I didn’t choose for it to happen, and it would have been a lot more convenient if it hadn’t, mostly.

Lots of my own responses to the fucking-up aspects of these experiences have been quite pathological i.e. break-up leads to existential crisis and way-over-the-top shattering of self-esteem and things. Which leads me to think maybe EvilScientist has a healthy outlook, in some ways (although, I find it really hard to believe that you can’t have felt that way about someone by the age of 28 – and you seem impressively sane and empathetic and stuff as well, if you don’t mind my saying).

Another aspect of it: these experiences needn’t be that lustful… In fact, often when it happens, I have no real urge to have sex with the person, but just to be around them, touch them, talk to them etc.

And generally, the thought of sharing the person with someone else makes me feel unbearably jealous and fucked-up about it. So I’m not built for polyamory then… I’ve even suspected that the people I know who self-describe as polyamorous (and find it works for them) are having a completely different experience to me, under the heading of “romantic love”. Maybe we’re probably working from really different emotional templates and ways of relating to other people, fundamentally, I’ve thought.

But then I suppose society gets you used to that way of looking at things – that as soon as you’re “going out” with someone you can think “great, I don’t need to worry about them running off immediately”. If everyone was brought up to be polyamorous, we’d probably adapt just as well to that (or just as badly as most people seem to have adapted to monogamy).

anyway...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:25 / 12.08.05
I can see why you get frustrated, Evil. It's probably like when breeders (lovely, lovely people - without them there will be nobody earning wages in thirty years to pay for my pension) telling me how much I would love having kids. Yes, I can see how deligfhtful the experience is for my friends and family, but I have no desire to go there myself. And, luckily, it will never happen by accident.

Which gets me to thinking. People who fall in love with someone in a heterosexual way, to what extent does it register that this new flame could be the father/mother of your dynasty? All I had to worry about was whether Ganesh would do anything useful about the house (he doesn't, apart from arranging flowers). Is the likelihood of a fertilised ovum in your thoughts at all? Do you think "Ze'll make a giod parent". I know that both of my sisters had those very thoughts from very early on.

I think Deva's point about becoming "part of the family" is germane too. When I've split up with long term boyfriends in the past, I also was cut off from that point on from involvement in their family life. With one partner that was a blessing, with one it hurt. With Ganesh, I have become so enmeshed in the life of the in-laws that it would be really, really hard to lose the contact now.

When we first met though, his fearsome mother took a dislike to me and wouldn't countenance me for a couple of years. It was useful for her to realise that I was a force of nature beyond her power to banish, so she became my best friend instead, wisely. So the family thing is definitely a major consideration but I see it as incidental. It doesn't really impede or assist our happy happy lurve thang.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:44 / 12.08.05
People who fall in love with someone in a heterosexual way, to what extent does it register that this new flame could be the father/mother of your dynasty?

It doesn't, I think it would be a bit weird even if I did have the urge to breed but then surely the best person to further my genes would be the person I liked best?

To be honest when I think about the choice between a baby and a fast, soft top car I know what I want and I expect my partner to understand that and want to ride in the passenger seat. On the other hand we're talking about love in this thread and I think that a lot of people feel the need to have many outlets for their love and children are the most convenient outlet.
 
 
Smoothly
16:51 / 12.08.05
Do you think "Ze'll make a good parent".

Speaking as a todger-dodger, but one with no interest in breeding, I can say that this certainly didn't enter into it for me. And speaking as someone who patently isn't really ideal parenting material, I doubt it was a factor for her. Although if you broaden that to 'provider potential', like most people whose partner is more physically attractive than they are, I suspect she might have thought I had money. And if that was true, I don't see it as being a bad thing. I've never known quite why money gets such as bad press as an attractor, compared with looks, or brains, or GSOH, or - as you say - the mother/father factor. One can't really take personal credit for any of those things, and in fact, out of all of them, wealth is most likely to have been *achieved*. But I digress.

I agree though, the family thing is an interesting area. I'll have to give it more thought. In terms of the difference between the love we have for our partners and the love we have for our family, I've heard parents say that the birth of a child can downgrade their S.O., albeit only relatively. 'I thought I couldn't love anyone any more, but then baby Steve came along...', that sort of thing.
Does anyone have any experience of this. Didn't that come up in Sax's Children thread?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
17:32 / 12.08.05
Yeah, I think it may have. My friend Simon (whom I thought might be Sax for a while - same family circs, same locale, same SOH and talent for writing etc.) said pretty much exactly that ("I thought I couldn't love anyone any more than her etc.") when his baby Reuben came along.

That love is some powerful shit, y'know?
 
 
alas
18:37 / 12.08.05
I keep waffling on whether to respond to this thread. It may be entirely retrograde of me, but I do think there is a difference between love and being "in love," the latter of which is, in my experience, a kind of rip-tide: sucking me down into some scary painful out-of-control underwater place--but blissful too of course. I have felt that kind of emotional pull to both my children and to my few past lovers; the emotion being the same, the need to act (somehow, in some way) being similarly urgent and irresistable, although the actions themselves are decidedly different for the differing relationships.

I think, for me, that kind of rip-tide place has to resolve itself no matter what the relationship. It's not very sustainable. I can't breathe down there, really, but I don't want to leave it even so. The pain of losing such a beloved is almost unimaginable.

I have lost lovers that I still care for, and have had some relationships resolve into intimate friendships that are amongst the most satisfying of my life.

I love my partner, my two girls, and my few bosom friends. With these lasting relationships, I am not generally in that rip-tide place, although most of these relationships began there. And that's a good thing. I can visit there, sort of, in orgasm or memory--neither of which are quite the same, emotionally, as the being-in-love. And then come back to a better, more stable place--where I'm more capable of making the morning coffee, playing music, writing poetry, changing the cat litter, paying the bills.

Still, I suspect that the intensity of that initial, breathless bonding somehow helps sustain the ties.
 
 
Char Aina
18:44 / 12.08.05
Is the likelihood of a fertilised ovum in your thoughts at all?

fuck yeah
scares me rigid.
i would consider bcoming a dad a ruinous event at this point in my life, and i am not enough of a dick to either tell a lady to get rid off th baby or leave her to do the raising herself.

i find the issue a fucking mad one, especially when i was going out with a girl who was avowedly anti abortion.
her choice, sure, but it scared th shit out of me on a fairly regular basis.

i am in no way ready and able to take care of myself satisfyingly well, and i would almost certainly become the most bitter fucker ever through thinking of all my unfulfilled potential.
i'm sure i'd survive, but i'd prolly resent my kids on some level and that cant be healthy.

i do feel i might be a good dad someday, just not until i have a handle on being a person i could conscionably replicate in another.
 
 
grant
15:23 / 15.08.05
You never get that handle, you know.
 
 
Char Aina
16:41 / 15.08.05
ach well.
so who wants to make babies?
 
 
grant
17:01 / 15.08.05
I'm actually wondering about something, after reading the first page (primarily) of this thread -- that urge you get, you know, that you would take a bullet for this person, this beloved mate or child -- that you'd step in front of the speeding car or whatever... that's partially about not wanting to be the survivor, isn't it. I don't think I could handle surviving something lethal happening to my daughter. It would be easier to take the bullet.

Is this some strange form of cowardice?
 
 
Loomis
07:58 / 16.08.05
Reich holds that our tender and open emotions are so powerful that we build psychological and physiological "walls" around them - "armouring".

That Reich bloke is totally ripping off Paul Simon.

I have my boooooks ... and my poetry to protect me ...
I am shielded in my arrrrrmour ...
 
 
astrojax69
21:40 / 17.08.05
Is this some strange form of cowardice?

no, it's a form of social prosthetics. you project elements of your capacities onto the environment, including cognitive prosthetics like language, diaries, hardrives, road signs, as well as social networks to enable you to experience a broader engagement with the environment than a genuinely nihilistic one would. just as you might choose to suffer the risk of injury in the pursuit of a pleasure (say a broken leg, but dammit i'll ski anyway) you also risk yourself in the protection of your social environment, so family and familial connections are a strong source of attraction to allow your extensions of self. this is where the concept of trust as an emotion emanates.


as someone who is today single homeless and shattered having been with a s/o for nine plus years until only a couple of days ago, i have an interesting perspective on love that perhaps i mightn't divulge at the moment as it may be unduly coloured by current experiences and i may regret it!

don't talk to me about love.
 
 
Loomis
08:46 / 18.08.05
Shit astrojax, that's grim. Was it sudden?
 
 
astrojax69
21:44 / 18.08.05
yeah, sort of the consequence of a concatonation of events, but all recent and just starting to cope with the enormity of it all - losing a life, starting a new one, actually finding a place, working out what sort of place i want to get, having to move all my stuff there and starting to rebuild my social network that has, for several reasons, shattered about my head.

the up side is i don't at all feel suicidal - something i almost was a few months ago - and it is accompanied by a strange sense of relief, as it was releasing a dangerous stop-valve that led to it all. i knew there would be consequences, but i didn't quite foresee this! c'est la vie.

but love is a funny thing. i spent a week in queensland with my now-ex before i told her what i needed to on the last day; the time before that was really nice, like old times and i did what i thought was right to get back to that. so it didn't quite go as planned but i have my sense of what love can be intact. that can't be all bad.
 
 
Triplets
22:52 / 18.08.05
We have shoulders here, jax. They are comfy.
 
 
Smoothly
23:23 / 18.08.05
I'm sorry astrojax, that really blows. I hope you come through it fighting.
I do hope you come back to this thread though. Loneliness remembers what happiness forgets, and all that. Sounds like you would have a good take on the bigger picture.
 
 
Katherine
14:12 / 23.08.05
There are people out here (myself included) who have never been in love, and honestly aren't bothered. Evil Scientist

Strikes a cord with me, I was very much like this and looking back it's not a bad situation to be in, at least you are being honest with yourself. Occassionally I would pause wonder what Love is like then shrug my shoulders and continue on.

And yep, I think you all know what's coming now, I met someone who I pretty much fell in love with at that first meeting.

I'm sure it would be nice to have that depth of relationship, but I don't particularly care for the level of dependence on someone other than myself. Evil Scientist

Oddly enough we aren't dependent on each other, a relationship is balanced quality. Both of us work as individuals but we have the back up of each other if it's needed and to know that person won't judge us in that time of need just help.

What is romantic love? See above for most of the answer, as for the rest of it; Someone who I can't wait to see, who makes me smile when I think of him and smile even bigger when I see him and someone I fall in love with each time I see him.
 
 
ibis the being
14:52 / 23.08.05
I've put off posting in this thread for so long - every time I was try to formulate a response, I couldn't seem to hold it together in any coherent form. But a promise is a promise:

I don't think that what most people call being "in love" really is love - that consuming, "romantic," can't-eat-can't-sleep obsession. I've been in that, whatever it is, and funny thing - it's always one-sided. In hindsight, it was always more a testament to my vivid imagination than to any real connection between me and the object of my desire. Usually it was all about a fantasy - even when I was actually dating the person & not just loving from afar - that bore no particular relation to reality.

Even so... however false that feeling is, it certainly is intense. I can see why people call it love, why I thought it was "being in love."

The kind of love I'm in now has more to do with total acceptance, I think. It's a highly personal definition - I've always been one to selectively edit my personality so that people (including my family) will continue to like or love me. But my relationship with my boyfriend has a closeness, sort of transparency, that hasn't been part of any other type of relationship in my life - I suppose trust is another word for it, but "trust" is so broad. I know I'm in love when I know I can rely on this person to never reject me, no matter how awful I behave sometimes.

I think the meaning of "in love" has to be totally individual, and maybe it does have some connection to the one missing element in all your other close relationships - and maybe for some people that's intensity of emotion, who knows.

Dependence, by the way, doesn't really come into the equation for me in love. Responsibility does - sometimes I have to cook for someone else, sometimes I have to run an errand for or with him. But dependence? I'm a fully functioning adult, I have a job and earn money, I have my own transportation, I have friends and hobbies... I'm curious how exactly people mean "being dependent" in the context of a love relationship. Do you mean being emotionally vulnerable? That may be true in the initial stages, but I think now I'm less vulnerable with him than with anyone else, because I can trust him.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:20 / 23.08.05
not until i have a handle on being a person i could conscionably replicate in another

Eep!

Uh. It's not about replicating yourself. Biologically speaking, it may be about passing on your DNA (or your DNA passing itself on using you as a vector) but at the human level, some of the scariest parent-child screw ups I've seen have been about this precise mistake. Having kids does not equal self-recreation.

I have thought - do think - in terms of possible 'Mother Of My Children' when I'm looking at my partner these days. My last relationship fell apart in part because I simply couldn't imagine having children with that person. My current Other Half will one day be a very good mum, albeit she may also be barking (in a good way).

What's Romantic love? A very specific construct put together in the Middle Ages. Love as I understand it is one of those muddy things which defines itself by doing and experiencing. There probably isn't a whole lot to be gained from trying to define it closely, and it may by definition disappear under analysis.
 
 
Char Aina
18:38 / 23.08.05
It's not about replicating yourself.

no, sure.
not all of me.
kids do pick up behaviour from their folks, though.
i figure i have to be sure that even stuff i'm not explicitly teaching doesnt fuck up the next generation.
my thinking is that if my whole person is one i could conscionably replicate then whatever bits do get passed on will be good.
 
 
Triplets
19:15 / 23.08.05
Which is still what Quantum is saying. Parents who try to make mini-them's see themselves as, y'know, top shit and try to clone that. So nice they inflict it on the world twice.

You're doing the same thing, you're just trying Jekyll and Hydian the process and we know how well that turned out.


Kids are not plant pots to grow bits of yourself in.
 
 
Char Aina
21:21 / 23.08.05
uh....
what?
quantum didnt say anything, dude.
man, i think we may have a crossed wire.
or two.
must be writing sloppishly.

i dont think of children as plant pots for babytoksik to grow in.
i see them as people with very little experiece of the world and who would prolly be fucked without a bit of guidance.
i couldnt draw you an accurate venn diagram to show perfect parenting units in their various combinations, but i could make some fairly broad generalisations about them.

i feel that to teach being cool/safe/normally socialised one must first know how to be and, as far as my opinion goes, i dont think i have peaceful, happy and grown-up existence dialled yet.
(i'm not sure how you get to jekyll and hyde, but i would hazard a guess that its not me you have these issues with.)

i'm worried my kids'll catch me having a joint, y'know? or maybe they'll hear me saying something indefensible to their mother in anger and think its a good way to behave.
i have things in my head that are clearly from my mum or my dad, some of them good, some of them bad.

why the fuck would my kids be any different?
dont you worry about being a bad-meme vector?
 
 
astrojax69
22:00 / 23.08.05
I don't think that what most people call being "in love" really is love - that consuming, "romantic," can't-eat-can't-sleep obsession. I've been in that, whatever it is, and funny thing - it's always one-sided. In hindsight, it was always more a testament to my vivid imagination than to any real connection between me and the object of my desire.


hell ibis, you nailed it. the one sided nature of our existence makes any love realtionship fraught with danger. what if what you take for granted about someone turns out to be all in your head and they never thought like that about that at all...? the whole sorry saga of love is having the heart to abandon yourself to someone else's trust and hope for the best. if it starts out with a lust element, so much the richer fantasy, mebbe... but somewhere along the line you start just to trust; and this is antithetical to reality.

some people make it eighty years married. some people make it six days. i rekkun it is just people-judging skills and bald luck combined that make the difference.

but it is a great feeling while it lasts. better than drugs.


in my own case, i have realised that s/o [now ex-s/o] can't live with 'me as i am', though would be keen to share a life with 'me who i might become [but clearly aren't yet]'. the recent events have given said s/o an opportunity to sever the relationship now, while for me i need some space to retreat into and learn, grow, see what i think. mebbe we'll work something out. mebbe we won't. but i appreciate very much the love we shared and i am keenly aware of some of the things i will want in any future relationship.


i only hope i will be able to find that trust to abandon again.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:13 / 23.08.05
i rekkun it is just people-judging skills and bald luck combined that make the difference.

I always think that relationships are more about judging yourself. When it goes wrong it's not that the other person has so much wrong with them or is particularly irritating, it's more that you misjudged your ability to feel affection for that person, more that you're prepared to assign a judgement on the weird little things about them that you thought would be okay or didn't know about.
 
 
Ganesh
22:52 / 23.08.05
Not that being eighty years married - or any years married, come to that - necessarily maps onto being 'in love'...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:53 / 23.08.05
Tell me about it.
 
 
astrojax69
04:38 / 24.08.05
sure, nina. i meant to include me in my people-judging skills. i am a people too.

but you can never know enough. there may always be an issue or a moment that shows what you never thought might be there, in a way you realise it was all the time and you never saw it. that can be in someone else, or in you!

but the lesson is to not presume something is there. benefit of the doubt to the person reporting their emotional states, huh? hmmm..... life, don't talk to me about life.
 
 
ibis the being
13:03 / 24.08.05
the one sided nature of our existence makes any love realtionship fraught with danger.

Well, for starters we disagree there.

what if what you take for granted about someone turns out to be all in your head and they never thought like that about that at all...?

To a large extent, this risk is averted by communicating. People change. But if you continue to be curious and interested in the mind and heart of your loved one, you can talk about how they might be changing. Obviously if one or the other party is dishonest and/or a poor communicator, it's not going to work so well.

the whole sorry saga of love is having the heart to abandon yourself to someone else's trust and hope for the best. if it starts out with a lust element, so much the richer fantasy, mebbe... but somewhere along the line you start just to trust; and this is antithetical to reality.

Again, I just disagree. This sounds like the GW Bush theory of love, or the Fundamentalist Christian theory (same thing, I suppose). "Don't ask questions, just believe." To some people it seems impossible to hold both unconditional trust and intellectual curiosity in the same mind, but not to me. I think that investment in fantasy or non-reality is exactly what dooms relationships. When you're all about the vision of love in your own head, you get lazy toward the other person - it's not so much about continually getting to know them, as just making sure they stay around. I've dated a few people (long-term) like that - after a while I gradually realized they were in fact disconnected from reality, living in their own heads, and all their ideas about me were cooked up in their imaginations rather than coming from any kind of genuine desire to connect or understand me. But it doesn't have to be that way - and certainly those relationships did not last (I broke each one off in frustration).

There's nothing about my relationship that's "antithetical to reality." It is real, it's everyday stuff, it's talking, arguing, doing nice things for each other, doing not-so-nice things to each other. It's nothing magical, believe me. But it is highly valuable and precious to me all the same.
 
 
40%
19:59 / 25.08.05
The only time I’ve been in love was a number of years ago, and it was unrequited. But interestingly, I don’t exactly feel that this detracted from the experience of ‘being in love’. If anything, it enhanced it. Which backs up what ibis has been saying about this “can’t-eat-can’t-sleep obsession” (which is exactly the definition of being in love I was using at the time), and how it is inherently one-sided. That’s brought clarity to something that’s been in my mind for some time. Basically, that this experience was more about me than about her.

The funny thing is that when I first met her, I didn’t think anything of her. I wasn’t really taken with her looks-wise, and even during the time I spent with her, there wasn’t anything particular about her that I could have pinpointed as desirable. At one point I commented to one of my friends about how gorgeous she was and he just looked at me blankly. Thinking about her now, I wonder what all the fuss was about.

The only reason I can think of that I finally got myself into that state was the sheer amount of time I spent with her (she was my housemate). I did come to be dependent on her in the sense that I always hung around with her in the evenings after work and figured I didn’t need to bother socialising much outside of the house because I had a companion. And she seemed happy enough in this role. We even got quite cosy on a few occasions which only added to the confusion.

So maybe I developed these feelings for her because I had spent so much time with her. Or maybe I deliberately spent a lot of time with her in order to develop these feelings. It was during a pretty needy time of my life, I’d moved out of home less than a year before with my parents divorcing at around the same time, and was dealing with various shit in my life. I think I wanted someone there as a kind of security blanket, and maybe it was that impulse that led me to think of this girl in that way, to look for that kind of relationship. And maybe that’s all it’s about. Maybe getting obsessed with someone, no matter how much you claim it’s about having admiration for them, is really about looking for a security blanket.

At any rate, I certainly wouldn’t view it as any kind of template for future relationships. I was obviously a lot younger then and now I'm looking for something with a lot more substance, someone who I'm well suited to, someone I find interesting, someone I can have that "intellectual curiosity" about. I'm not sure if I will have another comparably earth-shattering experience again. I think I would like to, but only if there's some substance to back it up.
 
 
astrojax69
22:01 / 25.08.05
spank, did you ever tell her just what you were feeling?

and what if, after a while, she had told you she was interested in you, too? wouldn't the feelings and pangs you were feeling anyway have remained, or would they have dissipated and been replaced by other feelings? (of course this is rhetoric; who can ever tell) what bit of what you were feeling is love, anyway? love is lots of things that change as we do. i'm sorry you've not yet met someone else to feel that way for; sure you will!

of course ibis, you're right (i am just being glum!) and communication goes a long way in maintaining and building the strength in a relationship (my recent s/o and i had nine and a half years, i have a previous relationship of over 7yrs) but there is always something individually and unsharably 'you' that can never really be more than what you are.

being in love is great. fantastic. deliriously wonderful. but its flaw is that it is no guarantee at all that this state of affairs will endure. at some point, reality and the mask you have adopted, must adopt, will clash and you will find out if there is a suitable mask beneath, or if you have been revealed and it is time to move on... maybe i'm just come over all glum again
 
  

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