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Whatever 'In Love' Means

 
  

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*
23:38 / 11.08.05
I think love takes practice.

I'm not sure I believe in Love yet, at least for me, although I'm sure one day I'll be proven wrong (when the Lover is ready, the Beloved appears). So far I have a relationship history which consists of a lot of being pursued, finding my pursuer attractive personality-wise and physically (although I have a hell of a time knowing for sure if I'm finding someone physically attractive or just responding to/mirroring their attraction), and deciding to give it a shot. My current partner (soon to be former as I'm moving away and he's not able to come with, among other reasons) was the result of a friendship in which I decided to risk a fling, and that fling has developed into deep caring and gone on for two years. The sex hasn't always been great, largely due to my body issues, and we've bickered and gotten tired of each other as much as anyone else. But we've also been wonderful support for each other during very trying times.

I've had one really shit relationship, which was the only one where I did the pursuing. I picked a bad one, possibly because of lacking experience dating women. I tried to break things off only to find her wrapped around my legs threatening suicide. Two months later, I told her that hypothetically speaking if she ever got bored of me, would she please just let me know so we could end it relatively painlessly. "Okay, now," she said. That was the end of that. That wasn't Love, nor was it even love. It was indulging a child who would never grow up.

So I guess when I am talking about love, in general, I mean a relationship one is invested in that one continues to devote energy and caring to because one wants that relationship to continue growing. When I capitalize it I'm talking about what to me is some ideal that I know other people have experienced, but hasn't happened to me yet. I have had partners where I didn't want to leave her or his side for months on end, and then eventually... it would stop. Still later I'd be repulsed by them and depressed by the obligation I felt to stay. My best relationships have been fairly undemanding ones, so far— deep friendships with attraction where we mutually supported one another. My torrid affairs have so far not worked out, and the one I already mentioned was disaster.

What I would like to get out of a Sex/Relationships thread, should one choose to bloom in the garden of eternal delight that is Barbelith, is an insightful exchange of ideas about people's relationships. I think that I have a lot to learn from hearing how other people talk about their relationships. Most people learn about relationships from their parents, and mine were undemonstrative with each other in the extreme. My close friends' relationship styles all seem to be pretty similar to one another, and pretty far from "mainstream." So I feel I could benefit from having a wider variety of people to talk seriously with about this stuff.

Also sex tips and BDSM skillshare.
 
 
Ganesh
23:54 / 11.08.05
PW, you don't see "beware: if you fall in love, you land in pain" as condescending by dint of being sweepingly general pseudo-wisdom befitting a transparently melodramatic 14-year-old Gothchilde attempting to sound worldly-wise? That's how it sounds when one makes such statements without qualifying them in any way, personal or otherwise. And if your code of honour prevents you from expanding upon your sighing worldy-wisdom in any meaningful way then, frankly, I'd rather you didn't post doomily-empty platitudes.

Ah, fuck it. Replying merely makes you post more.
 
 
Ganesh
23:59 / 11.08.05
I'm not sure I believe in Love

I'm not sure I believe in it in the capitalised incarnation, which seems a bit bells-and-whistles and, I dunno, public - but then I've only really had the one experience, so it's difficult to know to what extent my own 'thing' is analogous or generalisable. Maybe if it had happened with other people too, I'd have a bigger frame of reference.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
00:14 / 12.08.05
I think love takes practice.

I think so too. I've had a fair few entanglements but probably only Love with the capital L maybe three times. I think longevity of the emotions and some substantial element of reciprocity were necessity to give it the Big L. But each time I went around the houses, pimping my fibrillating little heart, it got easier to get the thing off the ground and keep it running along for a while. Sadly, it never gets easy (or easier) dealing with the falling apart and going all to fuck bit.

I am aiming to avoid that this time around by dint of being older and wiser and more practised in the business of Lurve. Plus, I have a better quality boyfriend this time. And I drug his food surrepticiously with Androcur.
 
 
ibis the being
00:18 / 12.08.05
I like to imagine that maybe people are mulling it over a bit before posting, as you sometimes get with Head Shop threads.

I am doing exactly this. Now's not a good & quiet time to compose the post I want to contribute, but I will do so as soon as I get the chance.

I really enjoy talking about relationships (including mine) and hearing about others'. Maybe I'm unusual in that regard. But that's sort of another thread, don't want to rot....
 
 
Smoothly
07:31 / 12.08.05
But that's sort of another thread

Certainly is. And we could use you there, ibis. You too, sentimentity.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:04 / 12.08.05
Love is for inferior organisms.

There are people out here (myself included) who have never been in love, and honestly aren't bothered. I'm sure it would be nice to have that depth of relationship, but I don't particularly care for the level of dependence on someone other than myself. Seems weak.

Although some would say I hold that opinion because I'm bitter, misanthropic, and lonely.

Know what I say to that?

"I'll have yer eyes! Get off my land! Keep yer restraining orders to y'self! Sarah Michelle Gellar is mine forever, mwoo ha haa!"

Ahem.
 
 
Spaniel
08:35 / 12.08.05
Evil, do you feel that way about your existing loving relationships? Assuming you have any.

My current relationship snuck up on me. I found myself entangled due to a drunken tumble, and then tried to distance myself from what I thought was a big ol' mess. I didn't want a relationship with her: she was too old for me, not as physically attractive as previous partners, etc... I spent the first couple of months chewing friends' ears off, as I painstakingly explained how it would never work. And then, slowly but steadily, I began to stop freaking and started to *see* what I had. In this instance love didn't hit me like a ton of bricks - as it had in the past - rather I began to notice it in the nooks and crannys . Six months later and for the first time in my life I felt I had someone that I could love and that I could live with - a companion, someone that didn't drive me insane, someone that I could talk to, or, more importantly, not talk to for hours on end. For me it's not the explosions of passion that make the difference, it's the mundane, little things.
 
 
Spaniel
08:55 / 12.08.05
In the minds of some, there seems to be a strange divorce between romantic love and the love we feel for family and friends. The former is often viewed with suspicion whilst the latter is taken for granted. At risk of sounding absurdly obvious, I think the problem comes from the way romantic love has been culturally contructed - tied in, as it is, to notions of The One, perfect happiness - and the way it's traditionally defined as a singular experience.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
09:03 / 12.08.05
*applauds Boboss*

Obvious it may be, but worth saying all the same. I'm very interested in your take on this?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
09:17 / 12.08.05
Another obvious-but-useful connected point is that ones experience, construction and expectations of romantic love are often hugely intertwined with one's experiences etc of other forms of love - parental, platonic, sibling, crushing etc.
 
 
Spaniel
09:25 / 12.08.05
Well, for a start I think such constructions are likely to cause a sense of alienation from one's own feelings. If we're constantly looking to match some ideal then we are going to be disappointed, and we are also likely to overlook, or belittle, what is that we *are* feeling. Speaking for myself, I think my initial problems with my current (and all time favourite) relationship stemmed from paying too much attention to what relationships "should" be like.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:26 / 12.08.05
the love we feel for family and friends

Okay, that is not one concept, one unified thing, for all of us, can I please insist on a division between the way I feel about my family and the way I feel about my friends? The latter is something I'm glad overlaps with the way I feel about my current S.O., if the former ever did then I think it would be a very bad sign.
 
 
Spaniel
09:31 / 12.08.05
I only conflated the two to illustrate a point - that romantic love has ridiculous, unrealistic demands placed on it.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:48 / 12.08.05
Well, this thread's talking about romantic love isn't it? Which is not something I've ever felt towards someone. I've lusted after people, sure, but never anything that I would define as love. I tend to view love as something that other people contract.

Or perhaps I see it more like Ecstasy. I'm sure it's a lot of fun to experience, and maybe I'm a little curious to know what it's like. But viewed from the outside it's people smiling and giggling in a really annoying way, and dancing way too much.

I feel non-romantic love, y'know towards friends and family. I'm not a (complete) sociopath. But they are different emotions, although both come from a similar source.

Whilst I'd agree that cultural ideals often get in the way of people falling in love, or perhaps realising they've fallen in love, I'd respectfully suggest there's a difference between being wrapped up in an illusory ideal and preferring certain aspects to be present in a partner.
 
 
Char Aina
09:52 / 12.08.05
dancing way too much.

aint no such thing, bro.
 
 
Fist Fun
10:14 / 12.08.05
"I'm sure it would be nice to have that depth of relationship, but I don't particularly care for the level of dependence on someone other than myself. Seems weak."

I feel the same. Sort of. Good post.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:26 / 12.08.05
I don't think dependence is quite the right word though... I am involved in a long-term monogamous rel. and I don't feel that I am dependent on my associate in any way really, as I would be able to function if the relationship were to end heaven forbid, and I operate as an individual rather than as a part-person. But it is definitely a source of added strength in many ways and I do value that.
 
 
illmatic
10:30 / 12.08.05
I'm sure it would be nice to have that depth of relationship, but I don't particularly care for the level of dependence on someone other than myself. Seems weak.

Can I just say that, without wanting to seem insulting, I find that utterly bizarre? I'll qualify this later, when I'd had a think.
 
 
Axolotl
10:33 / 12.08.05
Buk & ES: I feel the same, but I think a lot of people would say that feeling that way is in fact a sign of weakness in and of itself, or if not weakness at least a level of deep insecurity.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
10:41 / 12.08.05
I think Robert de Niro expressed what Evil Scientist seems to be feeling best in Heat (1995) when he said:

"Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel the heat around the corner."

I kinda know what you mean, E.S., and I don't know how old you are, but I reckon most people grow out of that "lone wolf" thinking by the age of about 20. It's certainly something I associate with many of the people I know who are to a degree emotionally younger than their years.

Not that I'm trying to persuade you to join the Luv Club, and no offence meant either, but I think if you do not come to feel differently about this at some point in your life, you will have lived an unusually narrow and unrewarding emotional life.
 
 
Axolotl
10:43 / 12.08.05
Illmatic: yes, it is quite bizarre. For me I reckon it's more a reluctance to let anyone have that amount of control over my emotional well-being, and I'm fully aware that it is a less than ideal mental state to be in, but I am at a loss to know how to deal with it. However all of this is said with the proviso that I am probably the least qualified person ever to talk about this being pretty much an emotional train wreck (but in a very restrained, british way, obviously).
 
 
illmatic
11:04 / 12.08.05
Sorry to carry out bargin basement psycho-analysis on you guys, but...

I've gone on about Wilhelm Reich ad nausem in The Temple, so forgive me if I'm boring anyone (I was trying to think of a way to say this that didn't involve his thinking, but gave up) - basically, Reich holds that our tender and open emotions are so powerful that we build psychological and physiological "walls" around them - "armouring". As we grow up, we rationalise these positions, they become part of our characters, thus this attitude - any expression of this openess is somehow weak, over-reliant on others, because of the distrust we have towards these feelings.
Thus, the cultural myth that Whisky is refering to in her post above - the hard tough male with no emotion and no vulnerability (and therefore presumably, no pain) - but as she also notes, this can put big limits on our freedom of expression.

Reich's ideas also explain why we can make grand assertions something about love, openeness and then fail so miserably to act on them, because protective, negative attitudes are litrally anchored in our bodies.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:07 / 12.08.05
Toksik, you've never seen me dance. Heh.

Phyr, I'm absolutely certain most people would agree that my viewpoint could be the sign of an insecure person. I'm sure that is certainly part of it. However, arguably, insecurity could be part of the reason people form long-term relationships.

Whiskey, no offence taken. I'm actually 28. But I do disagree that not falling in love means a person is going to have a particularly narrow emotional life. Would you argue that someone who has never known romantic love is somehow less able to appreciate the beauty of the world? There is a chance I may be emotionally stunted in some areas, but conversely I've seen people fall apart after a bad relationship and never put themselves together again.

I certainly wouldn't put myself in the role of the archetypical "hard man" with no emotions. I laugh, I cry, I've even been known to sing.
 
 
Bear
11:09 / 12.08.05
Illmatic does Reich talk about how to break these walls down? It's something I'd be curious to read about a little more.
 
 
illmatic
11:11 / 12.08.05
That's the basis of his therapy, mate. To avoid me clogging up the thread talking about my current obsession, I'll send you something via PM.
 
 
_Boboss
11:12 / 12.08.05
weak...dependence...

weak like tea with too much milk? or french beer in chubby little bottles? IS being in love a bit like an unhealthy heroin addiction, which is how perhaps the 'dependence' bit is being treated here?

think i read in one of the psych journals that comes round that there is an addictive element to mutual romantic partnerships - something to do with one 'personality' growing to require the other one's presence to work properly. that's gumb science of course, and should be treated as such, but feels close to the truth - i get a massive, massive tetch on when I have to go away for work and be separated from Her for more than seven hours or so. like wanting a cigarette really bad, but with the knowledge that the thing you want isn't physically harmful and that you deserve and desire it, well, honestly.

it's impossible to talk about these things without resorting to the floweriest of language I find, explaining perhaps the unwillingness of some to share in this thread. maybe it's a guy thing or just a geek thing, but i often do think that i lack a vocabulary to talk about 'love' without gushing and being silly, but also that that's kind of the way it has to be, because there's nothing really sense-able about my feelings.

i feel, if i'm going to have to pull something soundy out me arse, that love really best defines itself in the negative: loss, absence, pain are the signs that you're really in love, because the positive feelings derived of joy, companionship, ever-better jigginess et. become one's total everyday being. happiness, contentment becomes the default standby postition, and you hardly notice it. i still worry about money, historical injustice and personal self-esteem i supose, the things that are supposed to make you feel down, but they always appear against this feeling of 'why am i not too bothered about these things?' and it's because i'm in love, and the achingsoulangst feeling that used to typify my lows before i found Her are just gone entirely.

and if it's anything, it's a sneaker:

so this pretty little thing is kind of a friend of friends and lives down the road, and i've heard vague whispers from girl pals that she sort of likes me, but, y'know, to do that she's probably a bit daft... my vomit has been all over my windowsil for months and she walks past it every day and she stil doesn't hate me? is she mad? (yes) she reads the fortean times though so... hmmm. so it's a nightclub and got some weak acid, and she's there and no dancing but just chatting. she sparkles and looks like beautiful sexy music. we start talking about dolphin penises (big, s-shaped, enuff to rupture the aquatophile lad or lassie who takes it on). but she doesn't mind. weird girl. why can't i stop thinking about her? she's in a bit of trouble housing-wise so comes to kip on the sofa for a bit, and after a couple of days the mind is made up, this girl's a treat and i be having some. and she sort of moves into my bed that day and hasn't left, despite early 'too fast' misgivings. i try to bring it to a head by being an arse, and just as we're having a barney potentially big enough to finish things for good, i get a weird voice in my head: it doesn't say 'no', it says 'never'. she's upset, and how does it make me feel? never. never again can i bear to see her like this. never again will i let her out of my life. (not in a stalky way obvs..)

after that the 'think i'm in love' became 'know i'm in love, never want it to end' and it hasn't. every decision i make has her in mind. every time i walk through the front door all i want is for the chore oahead to end so i can get back to her - even fun things like drinking and comic-shopping don't seem as important. the love i have for my family and friends - i believe i could do with out them, really, so long as this one's still there (really never want to put that to the test though).

my god, look at the time, rambling or what? it's lunchtime. sorry. i'll come back and tidy this mong-sense up later.
 
 
Spaniel
11:14 / 12.08.05
I feel non-romantic love, y'know towards friends and family. I'm not a (complete) sociopath. But they are different emotions, although both come from a similar source.

Evil, I'm not accussing you of being a sociopath, rather I'm interested in the way you're constructing romantic love. The way you're seperating it from other kinds of love as something to be avoided, akin to disease. In what ways do other kinds of love differ? I'd argue that in many ways I am more emotionally dependent on my twin brother than I am on my SO. What about children, is loving them, having your emotional life tied to their well being, also to be avoided at all costs?

I think you have some funny ideas about romantic relationships, that could really do with some unpacking.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:56 / 12.08.05
I know you weren't calling me a sociopath, that was meant as a mild jest by me at my own outlook. No worries.

How does familial love differ from romantic love? Good question. I certainly feel that they're different things but I have to admit I find it hard to pin down, in an analytical way, what the difference is.

As I say, I don't much like the idea of having to rely on one other person to such an extreme degree. It seems insular. A family, a group of friends, these are formed from more than just two people interacting.

Now obviously I'm not suggesting that two people involved in a romantic relationship would ignore all other previous social relationships entirely. However it does seem to happen to a certain extent. Perhaps it's a fear of the intensity of the relationship. But I don't think so.

As for children. Well, they seem to be something that a lot of people (both het and gay) seem to yearn for after a certain amount of time together. I personally have no real desire to breed, or adopt. Children are okay, I guess. Wouldn't say I love them though.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:05 / 12.08.05
Sorry, to actually answer your question. I would have thought that loving your children would be a prerequisite of having them in the first place. But this surely would come under the heading of familial love. I wouldn't suggest raising children in a loveless environment, there's a tendency for psychological damage.

I had a great childhood by the way. My Parentals rule the school.
 
 
_Boboss
12:25 / 12.08.05
so great you don't want to leave?

(sorry)
 
 
*
12:28 / 12.08.05
Maybe it's the fact that I'm in a love relationship, not IN LOVE with stars and hearts and flowers around it, but I don't feel dependent on my partner. We've supported one another and been added strength for each other— I just finished my thesis while going through a series of other life changes and crises, and having him around helped immensely. But I would have survived without him, I'd just have been more of an exhausted wreck afterward. As for addiction— well, I'm moving across the continent tomorrow (my absence on this board will probably go unremarked but in case anyone addresses anything to me and then is annoyed by lack of response, that's what's going on) and he's not following. That's an end to it. It's sad, but I know he will have other lovers better suited to him, and I am willing to bet I will have other lovers better suited to me. I'll miss him. But my life is not over.

That which is hard can break but not bend. That which is soft can bend and not break. That's a bit how I feel about acknowledging the capacity to love in oneself as a form of strength. If one is too hard to ever avail oneself of another person's support in a time of need, one will probably break. Bonds between humans developed as a survival mechanism and they still serve that function.
 
 
Spaniel
12:28 / 12.08.05
Loving your children is prerequisite for having them? Interesting assertion.

I'm going to have a child soon and I can't say I love it yet. As I understand it, it would seem that it can take time for parental love to grow. In some cases it takes years. But I digress.

I think you're missing my point. I used the above examples to try and deconstruct your view of romantic love. _If_ dependency is the problem you say it is* (assuming there is dependency in the first place), then why is it not a problem when it comes to familial relationships and friendships? In what way does the dependency differ? Why is one kind of dependency worse than another? Of course, this all begs the question, how are you defining dependency?



*and by using the word "contagion" you seem to be suggesting it _is_ a problem for everyone who experiences romantic love. Another bold assertion.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:37 / 12.08.05
I actually said "contract" Boboss, but effectively the same. I'm a bold fella me.

Bless you Gumbitch, for that assumption. But no, I'm more of an "owns his own house" kind of weirdo. I dislike relying on anyone, and my Parentals did more than enough to support me when I was a strange little kid.
 
 
Cat Chant
12:40 / 12.08.05
Evil Scientist - I'm enjoying your conversation with Boboss a lot, but I wanted to ask about the unexamined privilege you're bestowing on TEH COUPLE in your construction of romantic love. It seems to me (I might be reading you wrong) that a lot of the problems you have with "dependency on one other person" vs the more stable, spread-out, networked qualities you ascribe to friendly/familial love are actually more about monogamy vs polyamory than they are about sexual love vs non-sexual love. So what do you think about that? Is it specifically quasi-merged coupledom you associate with intolerable "dependence"?

I'm still mulling over my own response, but here's a couple of Head Shop threads that people might be interested in, or that might usefully be bumped to deal with some of the stuff raised in this thread: this one on "freedom in relationships" (does being coupled make you more or less free as a social being?) and this one on polyamory.

Today I like Barbelith a lot.
 
  

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