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Unconditional Love
14:46 / 10.08.05
I am trying to get at all the differing expressions of things, also trying to highlight that alienation and pain may have there seed and growth in community and pleasure, ie that quite literally community and pleasure often create alienation and pain, and to miss that relationship is to forward one at the expense of the other, its easy to end up with a community that isnt a collection of individuals and emphasises community above everything else while happily treading all over individual view points both mentally emotionally and sometimes physically all of which i have experienced.

There tends to be a community good,isolation bad attitude prevalant. i question that, that suits some but not all.
If someone is fearful of community, that community has to start asking why that is, what is the stimulus that creates fear. Its very fashionable to place the emphasis on the individual for the responsibility of there problems, ie get over it, get over yourself. Its not always the case. Some people isolate due to lack of acceptence and in my estimation many communities lack reasonable tolerence.
 
 
Chiropteran
15:15 / 10.08.05
I often find that when I talk with other people I become their projection/image of me.... So you can see why I am not as hard on solipsism as everyone else.

At which point the Solipsist stops and asks, "what other people?"

Whether they are illusionary or not, you are observing effects on yourself that appear to correspond with your sense impressions/hallucinations of other people, so it might be practical to work with an "other people are real" model, if only as a tool for the exploration and development of Self.

For one thing, contact with coworkers who have certain expectations of you have revealed that you are capable of sustained, reliable, and accurate labor, even when you don't feel up to it, and the work itself is unstimulating. That's important self-knowledge, which can then be applied towards one's personal goals (magical or otherwise). The fact that they expect this of you (and that their expectations have been reinforced by your job performance) also suggests that they have a higher opinion of you than you do yourself (in this one facet of your identity, at least). Other people often recognize things in us (both strengths and weaknesses) that we don't see ourselves. They can also - often uncomfortably, but very importantly - poke holes in our self-defeating delusions and our rationalizations for our own misery.


(And does anybody actually like living in their "own dreary little world?")
 
 
illmatic
15:16 / 10.08.05
Sypha: Could you just not post in my fucking threads in future? You have nothing to say that interests me so just please keep the fuck out of it.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:46 / 10.08.05
TouchE!
 
 
Quantum
15:55 / 10.08.05
I’d rather be there in person with people. Much rather. Seth

So let's arrange more meets then. I want to see you people in Brighton on the weekend of the 20th August or else no more complaining allowed.

I responded to a synchronistic note in a window about magic recently, it turned out to be a group of Amado Crowley devotees, which is interesting but not necessarily my cup of tea. TBH the only group I'm interested in working with is you lot, not *despite* the wide variety of backgrounds and practices but *because* of it. More Magick meets!
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:19 / 10.08.05
tolerence, patience, hope.
 
 
Quantum
16:49 / 10.08.05
Could a mod please delete some of this rot?

Back on-topic, the majority of my practice is for clients (Tarot) which is necessarily with another person. Not the same as group workings I know, but less solipsistic than lone sigilising, and certainly I've learnt a lot about magic from working with people who aren't magicians.

Anyone else? Does working with 'mundies' (note scare quotes) improve your practice?
 
 
Seth
00:08 / 11.08.05
So let's arrange more meets then. I want to see you people in Brighton on the weekend of the 20th August or else no more complaining allowed.

Already sorted. Cass and I are probably going to drive to Brighton sometime early next week. Probably Monday or Tuesday... or both. That's the 15th and 16th. I've got a week off and I plan to enjoy myself.

Who's free?
 
 
Seth
00:10 / 11.08.05
The purpose of building relationships with the Gods is so that you may be a node through which they can reach out further into the world, and through which other people may come to experience direct communion with them.

Why Gypsy...

That sounds positively evangelical.

Do you have socks and sandals and a tambourine to go with that?
 
 
Seth
00:18 / 11.08.05
Everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint

Who says?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:06 / 11.08.05
Do you have socks and sandals and a tambourine to go with that?

No, but I’ve got a bottle of rum, a cigar and some high john the conqueror root.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:25 / 11.08.05
I'd rather read Rimbaud than something joyful and life-affirming

(Not wishing to kick teh corpse around or anything - this is kind of 'on-topic'-ish, hopefully.)

I'd tend to argue that all 'art' is by definition life-affirming, if not positively romantic in intent, because whoever's responsible for even the really dreadful stuff has taken the time and the trouble to write it down/play the piano/piss on the canvas or whatever on the (let's face it, often wildly idealistic) basis that somebody out there who they've never met, and probably never will, might be interested. Especially once the artiste involved gets to the point of trying to find an audience/get some money, and such. Regardless of what he did later, Arthur Rimbaud was (allegedly) prepared to go down on the later (deranged, syphillitic?) Verlaine for example, in the hope of improving his poetry, which can't have been pretty, at least according to the aesthetic standards of the time. I mean it must have been tricky.

Before it's anything else, and however much it might get perverted by the man, etc, 'art' is a means of communication, which would seem to presuppose a)an acknowledgement that there are other people in the world and b)there's an outside chance that they're worth talking to. Otherwise, what's the point? A thirty second thrash metal song about the utter futility of not killing oneself in the queue at KFC, or in the work-starters workshop, or in the lifts at Goldman Sucks (insert what personally terrifies you here) is still, I think, a fairly positive statement.

Any genuine nihilist would get hold of some money, get drunk and then go on a killing spree, or try to get onto the board of directors at Lloyds/TSB, alternatively - the last thing they'd do is sit around fretting in a room on their own with a bottle of vodka and, eg, a missing ear, with no particular pay-off forthcoming.

All of which is by way of saying that, IMVHO, there's no such thing as a solipstic artist - it's an oxymoron, that, and anyone who says otherwise is welcome to meet me in the car poark outside my local, at which point I dare say I'll fall over with sheer amazement at the injustice of it all.
 
 
illmatic
08:46 / 11.08.05
Putting mod requests through for the more rotty comments to be deleted. Will try and come bck with something o/topic later on if I get some bloody time.
 
 
illmatic
11:15 / 11.08.05
To respond to Alex's comments first - Firstly, they are on topic, thank God, and secondly, most of the people I know who practice some kind of creative discipline on a regular basis seem to do so part out of eerrmm.... "habit" almost, perhaps "compulsion" is a better word. They do it out of an urge to create, which is not entirely the same as the desire to communicate, though "after the fact", it's natural that you would want feedback and criticism of your art. Seems a bit strange and overly protective to hoard up your creations rather than distribute them, even if it is only informally. What I'm trying to say is that not all art/creativity emerges from the desire to communicate - would anyone else like to comment.

This puts me in mind of things like mail art and the like, which seem to exist soley to propogate the shared nature of art, and the surprise of making contact with someone else's creativity through the post - "What's this on the doormat? Junkmail, bank statement, a couple of bills, oh and a mad Czechoslovakian has sent me photographic collages of erotic pottery". I've recently turnedup a fanzine with some really great mail art contacts will post details in the next day or so.

In the group I'm currently part of, we've very much come to the conclusion that the production of knowledge is very much a shared process, feeding of of other people, with everyone sharing information and viewpoints - note I'm talking very much here about expeiential knowledge (as in understanding of mediations and practices) rather than knowledge as the collection of a load of dry facts (i.e. I suspect that a certain poster on this thread might have more books than me but it doesn't mean shit with magickal stuff, unless you've lived it a bit). One of the main advantages that this approach has is it stops the formation of a dogmatic "one right way" approach, where everybody is supposed to have had exactly the same experience (reminescent of Golden Dawn gradings) - rather it teaches you to respect and value what happens to you and use that as the basis of your learning, rather than trying to replicate or reproduce a load of stuff from books.

More in a sec...
 
 
illmatic
11:55 / 11.08.05
One thing I've found interesting about this thread is the amount of people who feel that they would like some sort of contact but are missing out on it, for reasons of geography of whatever... no solutions, just noting it. But if you are near a big city, there will normally be some group or another. Whether you'll click is another matter, but it's still worth making the effort. I've always been in or around groups or other interested individuals and have found it indispensable (both in terms of "magick" and all the other areas of my life realted to ... oh, I dunno, "self-development" or whatever)

The group mentioned above is currently moving towards it's fourth year together, and was in turn formed out of the ashes (well more like leftovers) of another group. We commited to meeting once a fortnight when we startted, a schedule we've pretty much stuck too. I think this frequency has been really useful as well, because it lets things really become part of one's life. If you're meeting once a month, that's only 12 times a year, and it becomes easy to drop the ball, and before you know it,you haven't seen anyone for three months. It's something I've found really helpful - having a little community around shared nterests, even if you do get fed up with it from time to time.

I'd hoped to hear a few teaching/mentoring anecdotes - anyone?
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
13:09 / 11.08.05
One of the big problems with finding a group within a major metropolitan area is that most of the non-yuppy, non-cultish ones don't tend to advertise. The fluffier pagan/Wiccan groups tend to be the ones that organize meets, rituals, "holy days", and the like. I know at least that's how it seems to go in Toronto. While I know that there are serious chaos magicians and Hermetics in the city, as I've met some of them, the signal to noise ratio is miniscule.

The one exception to this is that one of the local covens, who's practices I'm perhaps not so fond of (I've heard they take a bit of a "holier than thou" attitude to most other folk in the mystical community) but they seem to be a nice group, organize an annual "Pagan Pride Day" in Toronto. I went once about two years back, and I actually had a good time. Pot luck food, a book swap (where I picked up a few interesting things, including an unopened alchemical tarot deck), and generally just a nice day for a picnic around people who don't think you're weird for talking about magic, the occult, and non-standard polytheisms.

Mind that the "Spiral Dance" was a touch grating, as was some of the other singing and drumming that folks did, but overall was quite a good time.

Dunno if this is something that's common to other areas, but it seems to be a longstanding tradition in Toronto.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:46 / 11.08.05
One of the big problems with finding a group within a major metropolitan area is that most of the non-yuppy, non-cultish ones don't tend to advertise.

See, this is a problem for me too. I was attending a healer's circle fairly regularly, but eventually I came to find the general vibe both a bit too fluffy and a bit too dosh-oriented. I found I was really having to watch what I said because I was getting some seriously funny looks. I'll probably renew my aquaintance with them once things settle down a bit, but I'm not looking to those people for a very deep connection. I thought about making contact with a heathen group, but the only one I've been able to find in BCN is--ugh--folkish.

Santeria is wicked active round here, but while I've felt drawn (or maybe shoved) in that direction recently that takes us into all kinds of murky waters: plastic practitioners with bottomless wallets aside, there's a massive cultural appropriation issue. Santeria doesn't exist in a vacuum: there's a whole community involved, a community which might quite reasonably take a dim view of someone like me barging onto their turf.

I'd probably do better in a more eclectic environment, but I can't seem to find anything like that round here. Meh. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.
 
 
illmatic
13:56 / 11.08.05
Re: Both your comments, I think that with the group I'm in, it's defintely helped by being in London. I don't know if it would flourish elsewhere.

Having said that I've had a number of good one on one relationships with people who lived nowhere near the smoke. Depends on what you're after I suppose, and what you think would benefit you.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:04 / 11.08.05
I tried my local moot, erm, nah.
I couldnt stomach the wiccaness of it, or that it was in a pub and they assume everyone drinks and the overall smugness arent we special approach, not that i am not arrogant and egotistical myself occasionally, it was just too cute and full of badly made up characters.

There are celebrations as well ordained by the local council, but thats taken half the fun of it away already.

There are a few masonic lodges in my area ive never explored those, but i doubt i am the right material, I think the local oto has moved to southampton now, the local church scene is huge in my town, alot of christian in fighting from the few christians ive spoken to about it, that could be fun for a while.

I am thinking i may have to start a scene in my town for budding occultists, this thought crops up occasionally, and this place needs something for all the misfits and seekers, misfitted seekers seeking misfits.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:20 / 11.08.05
i think people may need to start there own little associations, even if it only starts with one associate and then maybe two, and then get others to do like wise, til you can formulate little networks of groups and take over your whole town and then the world.

nah, start a heathern group perhaps, put out some flyers in likely spots and hire a hall for an hour or a room in a public space see who shows, make it a magickal project, create a spell to attract like minds and hopefully then start building an association/organisation. see what happens.

My association is going to be called B.O.A its symbol is going to be a boa constrictor coiling around a hand, or perhaps just coiling into the letters, but that is cheese. I had amazing sex with myself this afternoon. I was thinking of hitting student pubs, colleges, bookshops and the local moot, a spot of head hunting. perhaps a few self help groups or even a few local bands that seem to engage in that area, certain sections in record shops might a goood place to target as are the occult books in the local library, slip a few flyers in here and there.

the aim would be just to cover the hall costs, also email local online groups, try to target other areas within 10 to 20 miles after a while.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:27 / 11.08.05
Another quick point, cross contrast the groups time and location with other groups of similar intrest to find a time when those that are typically intrested are gonna be stuck at home, also consider club nights and pub nights etc
funnily enough sundays looks best where i am, and sundays usually have that nice relaxed feel to them as well.
 
 
Quantum
17:40 / 11.08.05
I had amazing sex with myself this afternoon. wolfangel

sorry, come again?
 
 
FinderWolf
19:24 / 11.08.05
>> One thing I've found interesting about this thread is the amount of people who feel that they would like some sort of contact but are missing out on it, for reasons of geography of whatever... no solutions, just noting it. But if you are near a big city, there will normally be some group or another. Whether you'll click is another matter, but it's still worth making the effort.

I've been wondering about checking out the NYC Theosophy Group meetings here in the city -- that Blavatsky was an interesting one...
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
20:57 / 11.08.05
A thought...

...isn't this what Ultraculture was supposed to facilitate? How did that experiment turn out?
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:27 / 11.08.05
Get them to come to you, i am lazy so thats my solution to the problem, become what you are seeking, hope others are seeking, and you can manage to be what it is you are seeking, self realisation by being found rather than finding? hmm stay still do nothing get where you want to go, more hmm.

I have this taoist quote thing come up everytime i boot i think its beginning to sink in. Ive been to a few theosophy meetings before, along time ago while stoned, got singled out by a speaker as being ultra aware, freaked me out never went back, i was young at the time, the tea and biscuits were nice and the speaking was well above me at the time, but the atmosphere was very open and friendly, lots of old ladys being very motherly and cosmic.
Its well worth a look.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:28 / 11.08.05
malted milk by the way, you know the ones with moo cows on.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:44 / 11.08.05
couldnt manage it quantum, light weight.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:13 / 15.08.05
I must confess, I'm strangely touched by the idea of Theosphists nibbling malted-milk biccies with moocows.
 
 
Quantum
13:52 / 15.08.05
Blavatsky biscuits, heh...





"There is no snack better than a biscuit"
 
 
grant
14:17 / 15.08.05
[bit off topic]

Santeria is wicked active round here,

Really? That kind of surprises me. I always think of it as being one of those New World dealies where Africa and Europe meet...

Unless these folks in España are descended from Yoruba/Dahomey/Congo people in some way, I think there's already some appropriation going on.
[/bit]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:43 / 15.08.05
Can't move for it, mate. See, a lot of the people in my neighbourhood are immigrants, and many of them have come over from parts of the world colonized by the Spanish (or their parents did). It's not so surprising that they brought their religion here with them. Other syncretic religions are also very active in Spain, such as Vodoun and Candomble, but round here it's mostly Santeria from what I can see.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:15 / 15.08.05
Popular prejudice blames the Cubans for all of this. Don't know how much truth there is to that. I might also mention that there is a Yoruba presence here, although quite small.

Sorry, back on topic.
 
 
grant
02:22 / 17.08.05
There's a small Yoruba presence in the Cuban gene pool, too.

[back on topic]

So why haven't you met any of these neighbors, then? They're immigrants, you're immigrants....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:00 / 17.08.05
Well, I do meet these neighbours. The topic of "So, you into this whole Santeria lark then?" doesn't really come up, though.
 
 
Sekhmet
13:10 / 17.08.05
There was a thread about how to meet other occultists, wasn't there? Broaching the subject can be tricky...

The only official groups I've ever worked with have been Wiccan, fluffy, and annoying. It's turned me off the idea a bit. The only group workings I've enjoyed have been quite informal, with a few friends. Unfortunately, my current occult-y peer group varies wildly in tradition and methodology, so cobbling that sort of thing together might be rather harder now. It's like a joke: What happens when a Chaote, a Thelemite, a Wiccan, a Bhuddist, an Asatru, a Druid, and a Christian mystic do a ritual together? (Somebody cleverer than I should supply a punchline for that.)

I've worked with my husband on some things recently. Should really do that more; we seem to be quite effective together.

However, I'm a control freak with performance anxiety; I have trouble following or leading. So generally I dance alone.
 
  

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