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illmatic
09:09 / 08.08.05
I’ve been having a look through my old magical diaries recently, and once I get past the excruciating embarrassment that lurks on every other page, I quite like them. Well, bits of them anyway. When I’m not mad or overly self-chastising. One thing that really struck me as I was reading through was the importance of connection with other people. Initially, this was with through the post (coming late to the internet as I did) but eventually in the flesh. (This was actually part of my attraction to Barbelith, the awareness that there were all these cool people based in and around London, who I could go out and get very drunk with). I think that the strength of this is simply in meeting people who confirm your perceptions - companionship or fraternity with people who think as you do. Beyond this, there is the possibility of formal learning, or even just tips and hints, clues on “what works for them” picked up from a person’s attitude or orientation.

Occultists (not really thinking of myself as an “occultist” as such anymore, but the definition will have to do) have a great tendency towards solipsism, and slipping away into worlds (and fantasies) entirely of their own imaging, in quite a negative way. I think contact with others can be a great guard against this tendency. Yes, I know that meeting flaky lunatics on the fringes of the occult scene can lead you simply reinforcing each other’s madness. Yes, I know that group work can lead to all kinds of bitter acrimony and falls outs. but ultimately, looking back, I’m both surprised and pleased with the amount I’ve picked up from my numerous contacts with other people, both on the occult scene and in the broader “underground” set of connections I made (a lot of my early contacts spun off from fanzines). I’m very grateful to the people of TOPY London who met me in a pub in North London many years ago, most of whom are still friends.

I thought I’d start this thread so other’s could offer their own opinions, anecdotes and so on. I’m interested in anyone’s opinions on the value of face to face meetings and contact. My narrate some anecdotes of my own later on. I’d go as far as to say that if someone asked me “what to do”, I’d say, get off your bum and go and meet someone. You make new friends, get exposed to great sources of information, get inspired by other people’s creativity. You might even get laid!

Note I said “face to face” - contact over the internet does not count. While I recognise it’s value, I also feel that it’s too often used to protect oneself and as a substitute for other activities (practice or just leaving the bloody house). You’ll never get the encouragement to really face yourself over the ‘net. I’ve looked at the archives of a yahoo group I’m part of this morning, and I’m amazed at the difficulties that have arisen with email as the only medium of communication. This thread might be useful to discuss the net’s relatively merits but I’d rather not.

So – thoughts, opinions?
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
10:41 / 08.08.05
I've found that group magic, and group talks about magic, in person are quite useful. I find myself feeling...I dunno. More inclined to do rituals and talk about theory with groups. Hell, one time I went to a pagan pub meet and ended up spending the entire night talking with the only other Hermetic in the room...who turned out to be on almost the exact same career path as me. Something about chefs and Hermetics that just goes together.

I've got a few friends that I work particularly well with, though, and my experinces with working with them have been VERY positive.
 
 
Frank Fress
13:38 / 08.08.05
Yes! I was JUST thinking about how I could get involved in some sort of group activity! It's true about slipping into fantasy worlds, I've been doing it my whole life. Jesus.

I live in Manhattan and have for two years. About the same amount of time I've been reading Barbelith. I was attracted to Barbeltih by the exchange of 'occult' ideas. Jesus.

Sadly, since my relocation to the BIG Apple I have yet to really find a community of like minded anarchists bent on getting drunk or bingeing on drugs (you know, magick) and having a conversation. I have only met ONE other person in this town, and I'm a pretty social guy (Jesus), with whom I had a meaningful conversation with while drunk and on drugs, about Crowley and a load of other shit. Get this, his name is even Zul. Just like the demon in Ghostbusters. No shit.

I tend to find that if I have a conversation with someone about my interests, that I admit lie upon the fringes of Western culture, and I even half-respect their opinions, I will make friends for life and most likely learn a lot in the process.

SO! Where are all of us? I was intially attracted to the 'lith because I could learn, but to tell you the truth, the majority of my occult experience has been alone without anyone to really bounce ideas off of. I have been dying to meet someone, who has say attained knowledge and conversation of their Holy Guardian Angel or something so that he/she can give me advice on how to grow as an 'occultist.' Damn that word.

I must admit, I am an elitist motherfucker with my guard up, so it could be my own damn fault that I have few 'occult' acquaintances.

Great idea for thread...I am so lonely...this could be kind of like the 'occult' personals.

The celebrity I resemble most is Macualy Culkin and my star sign is Leo. Drink and drugs are okay and I don't want children.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:42 / 08.08.05
In the couple of attempts ive made at this i seem to be great at fucking it up, paranoia and ego seem to get the better of me, i am not sure group work works for me, but the times ive been to treadwells ive enjoyed a great group of people with differing feelings and sentiments alround, and i think its the relaxed approach that does it, the presentations have focus but are open to discussion, even if they blur off topic occasionally. The atmosphere is great.

It would be intresting to work with a group that worked in a similar vein ie that didnt have a banner to wave like thelema, wicca, etc and was defined around a theme for a time and a place and then moved and changed as moods move and change. Its as if things need structure but should remain empty till the content bubbles up,something like that anyhows.something similar to an olde techno band i used to like knights of the occasional table, the spirit of the name.

I get the impression that if you gather enough magics at one spot things bubble up anyhow wether its directed or not, something usually happens. I guess maybe i dislike contriving myself to fit shapes i dont wear very well, and other excuses.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:26 / 08.08.05
Can magic survive in concensus reality? or is magic consumed by it?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:08 / 08.08.05
What is your definition of "consensus reality"?
 
 
Seth
16:56 / 08.08.05
Probably my main source of frustration with Barbelith at the moment is that I’d rather be there in person with people. Much rather. This is particularly true of the Temple forum. I’m fed up of talking about magic online when I’d rather be doing good work with the people I love. There’s something special on Barbelith in terms of the people who come here. And there are also filters due to the nature of internet communication that block out 95% of my experience of those people. I can’t breathe the same air as them, flash them a smile or put my arms around them and I’m finding that increasingly stifling.

I’m becoming convinced that there is a new magic that has to be explored by people. Something that’s further beyond what we’ve come to know and also simpler at heart. There’s something nagging me at the corner of my vision that is a deeper mystery, an understanding that everything I’ve experienced so far has been preparing me for. I think there are other people here who are on the same wavelength in some way. Illmatic frequently hits the spot for me. He comes up with contributions both on Barbelith and in the flesh that round out or come at a synchronous moment to things I’ve been thinking, things I’m experiencing. This thread, for example.

I don’t think names exist by accident, and certainly not a name as loaded as Barbelith. I saw Barbelith again yesterday, out of the blue at work my eyes became clouded by soft pink light which formed into a circle directly in front of me. Where is this all going? Barbelith is a preparatory force, it brings about a state of readiness and full maturity. It is not a static entity. It IS change, and I’m uncomfortable that it has existed in the same form for such a long time. Of course you can’t consciously create new forms purely as an act of mere will. Sometimes forming a structure around what you want to do prematurely will rob you of the very things you loved about it in the first place. No change can be forced, there is an ecology to it that flows into place at once. I’m not suggesting that simply creating a new space and way to communicate is the way forward because change must be organic.

Nevertheless… how far can we take our friendships and our magic? What else is there? I’m a firm believer - increasingly so - in that old Bajoran proverb, “It is the Unknown that defines our existence,” so much so that I think it forms the basic underpinning of all that we experience, whether we arbitrarily use the word magic because it makes us feel special or not. The word magic is increasingly synonymous with playing in a very shallow pond to me. I think a lot of you will have realised that the subtext of a great deal of my posts is experience: experience unfettered, pure experience, without the shallow tagging and logging we do to make it merely understandable. Mere understanding, mere knowledge… there’s no power in it. Simply knowing all the facts, histories and theories is not even close to enough to finding real change, so much so that I believe it to be an exercise in totally barking up the wrong tree.

I need to live this bizarre thing that I have called a life. And I need to do that in a way that doesn’t create a multitude of hideously jargonised systems that separate me from who I am and what my life is like. I need to do it in a way that doesn’t waste time talking in favour of creating, and I want that act of creation to be collaborative. More than that, I know something in me has become lost and needs to be regained, and that can only be regained in visceral face to face community. That thing is POWER. When I was attending church regularly I was engaged with people in a manner that unleashed something hugely POWERFUL. We took risks. We made decisions on the spot that effected sometimes as many as a thousand people present in the meeting. I felt something when I hit the drums that makes Seth circa Two-Thousand-and-Five feel decadent by comparison. You cannot get that by yourself. No-one is powerful enough alone to compare with a group of flawed and brilliant people moving as one. I’ve felt that feeling enough to know that it exists and that what I’m doing now cannot be considered dangerous or potent until I’m doing what I can to recapture the good of what once was.

What exactly are we settling for? Where is the cutting edge of our lives that excites us, and is this forum fulfilling that? My goal in life is to provide people - myself included - with an experience out of the ordinary. My current practise is not doing that. The game has to be raised.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:10 / 08.08.05
to flesh that out abit more, isnt the notion of magic that which goes against accepted norms in direct opposition to consensus reality, does making magic in some way make it populist depower it? by mixing it with philosophies that deny it?, ie everyday life. a largely atheist materialist notion of reality. isnt this why magicians are portrayed as outsiders in many instances, ie slipping into the imagination for long periods of time allows the magician to redefine self conception and alter there reality by reenvisioning it. hence periods of isolation in many traditions and some which maintain it as a lifetime tradition.

Doesnt the populist magician just become apart of the occult scene, a small time fame token? is the spreading and coming together of this knowledge just diluteing it?
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:21 / 08.08.05
Perhaps experience is the answer, perhaps we should all hire a hall and have a barbelith temple get together? I like the idea of that, but it also scares me shitless.
 
 
Seth
17:25 / 08.08.05
It should do.

Because that's the point at which the little worlds that we've fashioned get put to the test.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:31 / 08.08.05
id hide in a corner.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:40 / 08.08.05
The hall would explode.

Or possibly a portal to another dimension would open.
 
 
Seth
18:12 / 08.08.05
I don't think it would be like that. It usually takes a lot of work over time to build something communal that also motors. I'm used to working with a variety of group sizes, from two or three to a thousand, and I'm not sure I could focus an open group of practitioners from this board. Plus there's the factor that a lot of people will probably allow themselves to get rubbed up the wrong way. If you don't notice and work with your group dynamic you'll end up as a mess and people may get hurt.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:37 / 09.08.05
Seth: I agree with you. But what you're talking about is also something I'm actively doing in a small way right now. The sort of stuff I practice is, by its very nature, a community-orientated magico-religious tradition. It wants to reach out into the world. It doesn't like being kept in your bedroom or hoarded away. The purpose of building relationships with the Gods is so that you may be a node through which they can reach out further into the world, and through which other people may come to experience direct communion with them. It's not a solitary practice.

So I've started holding regular services on the specific feast days associated with the Gods and inviting people along. They tend to be quite small gatherings, only people that I trust and who I think I can vouch for. I throw parties in honour of the Gods and encourage people to bring offerings. It can be very potent and transformative stuff. This is where it's at, for me. It's not an "occult group" or "secret order" or any other wank, it's just a party round at my house for the Spirits.

I think that by incorporating this sort of thing into your practice, all of the criteria you are talking about above gets fulfilled. All pretty small scale at the moment, but that's cool. It doesn't really need to be a big deal, or anything more than a few people coming together to celebrate a fundamental principle of reality. It's just about community-based direct gnostic communion and interaction with the Gods/the Universe.

Walking in circles: Everything you say is true, as long as you buy into the myth of the isolated occultist, the outsider who is doomed to be misunderstood by "consensus reality". It's as much a myth as that of the "tortured artist" or the "doomed poet". Y'know, the sort of myth that fuckwits tell themselves to justify never getting a job and poncing off their girlfriends for years because they believe they're some kind of genius artiste who must stand apart from the world. Wankers. It's bullshit. It's a tempting romantic fantasy to fall into, but it's ultimately self-defeating bullshit that exists entirely in the imagination. Magicians go on and on about the power of will and imagination, yet so many of the cunts buy into the same cliched and predictable cul-de-sac lifestyles. Why not imagine a future where magic plays a positive and constructive role within a changing society? Why not imagine a life for yourself where your magic is an empowering and emotionally/spiritually fulfilling process of becoming, rather than a blunt and twisted obstacle that alienates you from the rest of the world? Why imagine such dreary little worlds to situate magic within?
 
 
illmatic
09:42 / 09.08.05
Great post, GL. You can see my initial post as a challenge to those isolated individals to actually get out into the world. It's one thing having an argument on the internet, it's another thing interacting with someone face to face.

Have a huge amount to say on this, about my own practice, my relation to Barbelith and so on. Might not get a chance today but will come back to it.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:00 / 09.08.05
I see your point gypsy, the more i open communally, really open, the more the little me, the egotist gets consumed, that sense of belonging in a community brings with it a natural ego loss, when really devoting and giving to that community, if i remember rightly its been a long time, if done in service to the community, a spontaneous kind of karma yoga arises in the individual, a selfless yet self fulfilling service.

The way i approach that outside of magickal work is through voluntary work, which i do use magic within and recognise some others doing the same.From another thread the third mind idea could well become useful in that area.
 
 
illmatic
15:19 / 09.08.05
Seth: I agree totally with you, that I’d rather be there in the flesh than communicating with people over the net, even on a board with such (relatively) high standards as Barbelith. Barbelith has always been a IRL social jump off point for me, as much as a net work-timekiller (due to career changes it’s not been very much of the latter for me the last year, and may not be again come September).

I’m sure that that the limitations of the magick forum and the occasional mad spats (the last one being Transducer) are greatly exacerbated due to the limitations of an electronic medium. I’m not saying that real life magical orders never fell out, but that any initial disagreements or misunderstandings get amplified hugely.

Simply put, I wonder if they’re aren’t inherent limits to discussing this sort of stuff online. Eventually, it gets to the point where you amassed enough free PDFs and read enough good threads, and you either act on that information , or you lose interest and go and do something else. Fundamental to the “magick” I’m interested in is experience of life (if indeed we want to divide the two), and while the internet is great for many things, experiential learning and growth isn’t one of them. At the end of the day, you’re staring at a small screen, ignoring your body and your senses (and usually, other people). As I said, my earlier post began with an awareness of these limitations and the desire to see what other people make of them.

I think the forum might’ve run it’s course for me, in that I’ve asked a lot of the questions I want to ask of people, road tested some ideas. Off Barbelith, I’ve discovered a set of practices that I’m very happy with and consider myself lucky to have found. Most of the input into those practices is coming from friends who’ve got a lot of knowledge and experience in these areas, and the answers to the questions I have here aren’t going to come from anyone on Barbelith. (In fact, a lot of the answers aren’t going to come from anyone but me, but that’s another matter).

I put “magick” in scare quotes above as I share your dissatisfaction with it as a term and category, and agree that frequently it’s a label people (usually men – doom laden young men) give themselves to feel a bit special. I’ve got some really interesting insights into all this from the Reichian stuff which I’ll post later. Insofar as my interest in “the occult” goes, I’m interested in it in terms of it’s meaning as “hidden” – and to me the “hidden” stuff is the stuff that we don’t want to look at, the bits we don’t want to examine, this includes stuff like character armour, our neurosis, hang-ups and much more besides.

However, I don’t want to discount the immense excitement that getting turned onto “the occult”, these ideas and practices can bring, It’s just when you start identifying as a magician and using this as an excuse to continue your alienated wankerhood that it’s a problem. (Not saying that all self-identified magicians are like this. But a few are). Practises can open you up to all kinds of new and exciting experiences – the breaking down of “character armour” and conditioning in the broadest sense – but taking it to that next level beyond this “fuck this is a bit weird” stage is a lot more difficult and this is precisely where other people come into the equation. I don’t want to go all Reggie Perrin on anyone but “I wouldn’t have got where I am today” without a lot of lovely people indulging my curiosity. And mostly this had been IRL, not online

I don’t really know what I’m trying to say here, so I’ll leave it and see if I can come up with a conclusion by tomorrow morning. I think though we should meet and have a chat in the flesh
 
 
--
18:17 / 09.08.05
I don't see solipsism, delusions, or things of that sort as negative. And I may live in a dreary little world, but it's MY dreary little world, and that's enough for me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:19 / 09.08.05
I don't see solipsism, delusions, or things of that sort as negative.

Why not? What's so good about them?
 
 
--
18:26 / 09.08.05
The world's illusionary so you might as well live in your own illusions. As for Solipsism, it's a cool sounding world and I tend to side with anything that enforces ideas of Self.
 
 
--
18:27 / 09.08.05
Also, some of the best is that which comes from the tortured artist, though of course that's an opinion. I'd rather read Rimbaud then something joyful and life-affirming.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:55 / 09.08.05
The world's illusionary so you might as well live in your own illusions. As for Solipsism, it's a cool sounding world and I tend to side with anything that enforces ideas of Self.

I have a very hard time enforcing ideas of Self when I'm isolated. If anything I start to blur around the edges. That Self is nurtured and strengthened by contact with others. In a magical context, learning from others, bouncing ideas around face to face, has helped me raise my game.

Also, some of the best is that which comes from the tortured artist, though of course that's an opinion. I'd rather read Rimbaud then something joyful and life-affirming.

*Shrug* I beg to differ. Does everything created by people who get out of the house and interact with others automatically have to be cute and fluffy?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:57 / 09.08.05
(Sorry if I'm sounding all cranky. This thread is reminding me how badly I need to establish a social/magical network here in Spain and it's making me sullen.)
 
 
rising and revolving
19:53 / 09.08.05
Group work is excellent.

As for the tortured artist thing, I think the essential mistake you're making is conflating the result with the cause. Rimbaud didn't set out to be a tortured artist - just so happened that was the way it panned out. If you happen to be an art school wanker who's living in the affluent west and bemoaning the poverty of your life and the emotional torture that ensues from the busty waitperson not noticing you, while thinking this is justified (or worse, desirable) then that's a different matter.

You're probably an artist, but your medium's bullshit.

Not directing that at you, Sypha, more at the line between "artists who have lead painful lives have created great art, often featuring that pain heavily" and "pain makes great art," - because it doesn't. Most tortured artists were great artists who created great work about the life they lived - if their life had been different, their art would be different.

Me, I hate the assumption that art from pain is better than art from joy, or love, or any of the many facets that make us human.

Now, having diluted the discussion, let me come back around :

A little background - I work with one ceremonial group and one druidic group, both of whom give me very different perspectives and educations as I've been developing myself as a ... well, whatever you call it. It's been a phenomenal experience, and not least because working with groups raises a lot of mojo. The chance to test and verify by working with others is terribly valuable - you no longer need to wonder what the juice feels like or whether you're doing things right - you can watch someone do it and realise how it feels when it's done.

More often than not, this opens my eyes to possibilities I'd not considered previously - it makes me less dogmatic, because I get to watch people do things the way I don't - and do so with immense success. I get to pick up tips, and most of all I simply get to participate in the wonders and the mysteries with other people and share something beautiful.

The more work I do with physical groups, the less I have to say online and the less I gain from listening to online discussions (or reading books, for that matter). I'd say I'm with Illmatic on this, although I'm not as close to being comfortable in my routine / work as he is - my work has changed back and forth a lot in the last year.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:36 / 09.08.05
I think limiting the way you interact is closing down the avalible options that were fortunate to have, i think the emphasis should be on all forms of interaction, online chat to meeting in person.

i agree any one of those at expense of the other leads to exclusive participation rather than inclusive interaction.

all methods of communication have there place and time,the net has limitations as do face to face communications, comparrisons betweeen the two miss the point of using all forms of avalible communication and cooperation.
 
 
illmatic
08:00 / 10.08.05
The world's illusionary

That's not true actually. Fundmental misunderstanding of eastern religion.

so you might as well live in your own illusions

Even if they reinforce your own misery, stupidity and pain?

I tend to side with anything that enforces ideas of Self.

Can you not see the fundamental contradiction in what you've just written? I've been trying to get at is
other people are the one of the major ways in which we reinforce our sense of our selves....

.. ah, why am I fucking bothering? Sypha, just fuck off. You're a useless, hopeless wanker.
 
 
illmatic
08:01 / 10.08.05
*(calms down)*

.. thanks to everyone else for their contributions. Will come back with something else useful later today.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:03 / 10.08.05
I don't see solipsism, delusions, or things of that sort as negative.

No shit.

And I may live in a dreary little world, but it's MY dreary little world, and that's enough for me.

Good. Fuck off back to it.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:19 / 10.08.05
[I'm not here]

I *love* this thread
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:39 / 10.08.05
Any illusion you are relative too you will experience as real, the more your experience it as real the more illusionary its nature becomes, thats the paradox.

Its not about denying self, but understanding the illusionary self from the truth of the self.

If your way of loving yourself is through an emphasis and exploration of suffering, thats as equally valid as any other way of exploring the creative process, the act of creation. Each approach wether driven by ecstatic joy, suffering, contemplation, colours perception of the eternal,but also is the eternal.

Its the recognition of it while in the moment of it (all the time) other conscious minds searching for similar experience can often jog that process along.(not that there is a process)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:52 / 10.08.05
The world's illusionary so you might as well live in your own illusions. As for Solipsism, it's a cool sounding world and I tend to side with anything that enforces ideas of Self.

Where to even start?

And why to even bother?

Oh fuck it, I'm off for an illusory piece of fruit.

Remeber Syphaloid - if there is no spoon, then what are we going to do with all the fucking soup?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:54 / 10.08.05
...it seems to me that one of the best and most compelling reasons for group work is so that you can actually punch people (well, some people) hard in the face.

What broken nose? It's an illuuuuuuuuuuusion, remember?
 
 
Chiropteran
13:34 / 10.08.05
If your way of loving yourself is through an emphasis and exploration of suffering, thats as equally valid as any other way of exploring the creative process, the act of creation.

Valid, perhaps, but not so much fun. And I'm really not quite sure that "loving yourself through suffering" isn't an inherently broken notion, fashionable though it may be in some circles ("loving yourself despite suffering," as pointed out above, is something else entirely).

I don't know - my own affiliation needs are so thoroughly unmet right now that I find it hard to relate to the idea that someone would deliberately remain alienated and alone. Maybe I'm projecting, but I think the Alienated Solipsist Pose is little more than a way of trying to disguise one's own fear of other people and, rather ironically, fear of Self.

I'd rather read Rimbaud then something joyful and life-affirming.

What, don't you find Rimbaud life-affirming? Such a thirst for experience! His was not the voice of a hermit, hunched over a computer (*cough*) in a darkened room...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:49 / 10.08.05
The World According to Sypha.



sorry
 
 
--
14:36 / 10.08.05
Actually, I don't really think that communication with other people reenforces notions of self (at least, not in my case). I often find that when I talk with other people I become their projection/image of me. For example, most of my coworkers see me as a hardworking, quiet, stoic type, so when I'm in that environment it's the pose I seem to morph into, even if I don't feel that way at all. I've always been something of a chameleon, especially in social situations... No matter where I am, I just look like I belong there, because I be whatever anyone else wants me to be: So when people talk to me, I become a wall in which they can project their own selves back at themselves. It is only when I am alone or online that I can be my true self. So you can see why I am not as hard on solipsism as everyone else.

I say the world is illusionary. Others say it isn't. Who is right and who is wrong? Everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint, and based on my own personal researches the illusionary viewpoint seems the most valid (though I'm not concrete about anything). I do believe that the Gnostics, Philip K. Dick, and Grant Morrison were on to something with the hologram theory. It's not a fundamental misunderstanding of eastern philosophy... I'm not an adherent of that path and I really don't know enough about eastern philosophy to even comment on it!

You know, I've seen many belief systems expressed on the Temple and no one bats an eye or questions them (unless it's Christianity or something), but if an unpopular member tries to do so they get mocked. Not that I'm complaining... After all, we're such a supportive, open minded, free-thinking crowd.
 
  

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