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Shooting on the tube

 
  

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Tabitha Tickletooth
11:29 / 18.07.06
It gets worse, as the motivation behind the decision to prosecute under H&S begins to raise some questions of its own. In a BBC radio interview yesterday afternoon (Radio 5 around 6pm - sorry, I was cycling home and didn't catch the person's name), someone was expressing disappointment at the decision to prosecute MetP on H&S grounds.

This person claimed that the H&S case was unlikely to come before a court for at least another 12 months, and was then likely to take at least another year to reach a conclusion. This brings us to a minimum of 3 years after the killing.

We already know that the IPCC report will only be released after this time (nice little 'forget-all-about-me' gap there) but the interviewee also claimed that any internal disciplinary action which may have been taken by the police against those involved in the operation could not be taken until then either.

I am looking for sources to corroborate this information.

Now I don't believe for a second that MetP intends to punish or allow to be punished any of its own. But. It sure makes it easier for them to get away with that by bringing a lengthy, largely toothless (ie great, level an unlimited fine for all the Londoners not yet shot by MetP to pay) prosecution and for all the damning information to be hidden from public scrutiny until the incident has had plenty of time to fade from public memory.

This just makes me so fucking angry. It also makes my insides twist with frustration at the inability to do anthing about any of these fuckers. How can they all possibly just walk away from what they have done. It shouldn't be possible.
 
 
Quantum
13:51 / 22.07.06
Campaigners led by the playwright Harold Pinter will today claim that the British justice system is being subverted by the "war on terror" as they mark the first anniversary of the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Can you believe it was a year ago?
 
 
Michelle Gale
11:52 / 02.11.06
Booomp,

Armed robber shot and killed by the same police marksman that shot Jean Charles de Menezes.

Why was this person put in a situation where they could shoot people?
Why did they not face any criminal charges for the De Menezes's unlawful Death?

Or maybe i'm missing the point.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:58 / 02.11.06
Why was this person put in a situation where they could shoot people?

As I understand it unless the officers were actually charged for the shooting (which, so far, they have not) then the police see no reason why they should not be allowed to continue doing their job.

From the Guardian: police would not last night go into detail about the incident, although the unnamed man, 42, reportedly opened fire first with a shotgun. The Independent Police Complaints Commission has begun an investigation after taking over an initial inquiry by Kent police.

Now obviously, given the previous incident, there is going to be a question mark over any shooting that involves these officers, and a lot of people will remember the initial spin put on the De Menezes shooting about "a man with a heavy jacket and wires sticking out". But this does sound, on this snippet of information, like the kind of situation that will occasionally happen to police marksmen (ie shooting someone who is firing a weapon).

Why did they not face any criminal charges for the De Menezes's unlawful Death?

I believe this thread does discuss this in some detail. But the upshot is that it's been a whitewash for the police officers involved. The Metropolitan Police are facing Health and Safety charges if you can believe it?

There are a lot of differing opinions on who exactly is responsible for the killing of Mr De Menezes.

But the official reason why they weren't prosecuted (also from The Guardian):

The report on the incident by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), delivered to the CPS last January, raised the possibility of manslaughter charges against the two firearms officers and Scotland Yard Commander Cressida Dick, the senior designated officer in charge of the firearms operation on the day of the shooting. The IPCC investigated whether she had given a clear-cut order for officers to shoot to kill.

Though the independent inquiry found multiple errors from senior officers downwards, the CPS remit was to consider whether an actual criminal offence had taken place that could be ascribed to any officer involved in the killing.

Under its code, the CPS has to consider whether the evidence is sufficient, whether a prosecution would have a reasonable prospect of success and whether it would be in the public interest.

In taking the decision, crown prosecutors sought advice from an independent QC, Clare Montgomery, a highly-regarded criminal silk practising from Matrix, the former chambers of the director of public prosecutions, Ken Macdonald QC. Decisions not to prosecute can be judicially reviewed by the courts if the reasoning is flawed and have been quashed in the past.

But Ms Wistrich said yesterday she suspected the CPS decision in the Menezes case "will have been very carefully gone through by several senior people".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:58 / 02.11.06
I know this has been said before, and better, but it absolutely horrifies me that I (or anyone else) could be walking down the street, sitting on the Tube, whatever, just going about my day, be shot and killed and NO CRIME WOULD HAVE BEEN COMMITTED.
 
 
pornotaxi
14:10 / 11.05.07
well, they all got away with it then

who'd have thought it, eh
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:59 / 11.05.07
Hang on, Cressida Dick hasn't been given the all clear yet, why not join me in holding my breath while we wait to see what happens.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:59 / 12.05.07

I still don't understand why there's been no investigation as to who started the "bulky jacket" story. Oh wait. Maybe I do.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:20 / 12.05.07
Been arguing with people on DS ALL FUCKING DAY about this, and it still pisses me off that people keep bringing out the old "what if he HAD had a bomb, and they HADN'T shot him? What would you think then, eh? Eh?" argument.

A far more plausible alternative, while we're speculating, would have been that the guy they were supposed to be following, but weren't, actually did have a bomb. What with being a terrorist and all. How's about if he'd been in the process of letting it off somewhere else while the cops were busy shooting Mr de M?

You never really hear that one, though.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:59 / 12.05.07
Hey, Stoat, how about using the "what if some Brazilian person decides to actually put a bomb on the tube to avenge his countryman murder, what would you think then?" argument? It is completely absurd, of course, but it's a nice response to that absurd argument, me thinks

Forgive me if I can't help but being emotional about the subject. It still pisses me off a great deal
 
 
Peach Pie
09:53 / 13.05.07

yep... "what if this unassuming man trying to get to work *had* been a sadistic killer about to destroy the world??? ... so it was ok to kill him in cold blood!!! anyone who thinks different is a paranoid conspiracy theorist!!!... errr..."
 
 
Dead Megatron
16:54 / 17.10.07
So much for British police reputation, if there ever was any
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:03 / 18.10.07
Michael George, a forensics consultant, today told the court that the composite image could not have been produced using Powerpoint software.

So that explains it, the police were using Catch-a-Crim '07 and hadn't bothered to install the patches!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:14 / 18.10.07
Good God. I remember thinking at the time that they put up that godawful split-face that, although the lips and eyes lined up, the hairline and chin did not, and wondered idly whether somebody had phoned the Police shooting investigations facial comparison office and asked if the face could possibly be... tweaked a bit to look more like the terror suspect - as has been pointed out, the suspect looks a lot my like Stan Collymore then Jean Charles de Menezes. I discarded the idea as ludicrous: a single withering "So, you want us to deform his face. Considering what happened to him, do you think that's going to go down well? What happened to his face?" would have killed the idea pretty quickly.

The world is worse than I think it is.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:09 / 18.10.07
What bothers me most is the smear campaign the Police seem to have engaged in to clear their own name. First, they tried to paint Menezes as a rapist, using a statement of a rape victim who probably just mistook the guy for the actual rapist. Then, they flaunt the fact there might have been cocain in Jean's urine (thought not the blood). As if any of this would excuse their awful performance.

I'd expect that kind of behaviour from Brazilian police, for instance, but up until this case, I swear, I had the best opinion on British police. Perhaps I was just ignorant...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:21 / 18.10.07
Then, they flaunt the fact there might have been cocain in Jean's urine (thought not the blood).

Definitely a low point, especially as it appears that the amount means that they could say with confidence that he had taken cocaine at some point in the past. It's not exactly N.A.R.C. The Met really aren't covering themselves in glory int his inquiry. Mind you, they didn't with the last one, either, and it worked out OK for them.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:00 / 19.10.07
Sorry, DM, British police, best in the world my arse. They've spent the entire time since they shot him smearing Menezes. This latest thing about cocaine is much of a piece with lying about him jumping over the security barriers at the station. We know they'll be let off in the enquiry anyway, so I don't see why they have to insult the guy they killed before that happens.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
09:42 / 19.10.07
Haus: it worked out OK for them.

It generally does, and even if this particular trial goes against them, and were there to be any kind of a negative verdict for the police at the inquest which will follow, there will still almost certainly be no real accountability for the actions of the officers and/or the Met (See also: Harry Stanley, Roger Sylvester, Shiji Lapite, Christopher Alder, Robin Goodenough, Brian Douglas, James Ashley, etc etc.)


Our Lady: We know they'll be let off in the enquiry anyway, so I don't see why they have to insult the guy they killed before that happens.

It helps maintain the levels of disinformation, keeping the perception that the victim was somehow responsible for their own death in the news, so that the background thoughts of anyone who discusses the case without actually checking the facts includes a recollection that "He was an illegal immigrant/rapist/drug user/didn't stand still/wore a bulky jacket/jumped the barriers/etc. etc.".
 
 
Chew On Fat
14:31 / 19.10.07
The thing to keep in mind is that what we are seeing is very much standard practice from the police.

There was a case a while ago in England of 2 muslim men, brothers, who were shot during a police raid on their home.

Although they had beards*, absolutely nothing could be shown to prove that they were the terrorists the police said they were.

After the police seized their computers, child pornography was found on the hard drives. A judge in the child pornography trial threw out the case as he all but said that the pictures were probably put on there by our friends the cops.

My point is that the cops seem to respond to getting the wrong man in the same way every time: ie putting out stories or actually trying to frame them for something else.

It isn't that they do this only in the high profile cases. These high profile cases just give us an insight into how they work all the time.

It looks like stupidity to us that they would think that they could get away with it under the media glare, but the point is they do it out of habit because that's how they deal with these things day in and day out. These instances are the RULE, not the EXCEPTION.

I think we're seeing the same standard practice at work with the Portuguese police too. Lots of allegations against Madelaine's parents, but nothing to back it up it seems...

*being facetious - sorry
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:32 / 01.11.07
Police guilty but, as yet, no-one is taking responsibility.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:04 / 01.11.07
Better than nothing, but not even nearly enough. "Too little, too late", is the expression that comes to my mind. At the very, very least, someone (else) should resign over this.

I also would like to highlight the article's last paragraph:

Mayor of London Ken Livingstone said the guilty verdict made it more difficult for police to protect the capital against terrorism.

Oh, really? Personally, I'd say it is the policy's blatant incompetency that makes it more difficult for it to protect the capital against terrorism.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:52 / 02.11.07
Ken faces an election race with an opponent who might actually beat him for the first time in almost a decade. So he's going to go all law-and-order. At the moment it's only really the Mail and the Evening Standard that are pushing Blair to resign, but they've had it in for him for a while for not making it policy to shoot anyone guilty of being foreign or working class in London.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:02 / 03.12.08
The evidence has ended and now it's time for a verdict. Every time that it's suggested that maybe shooting innocent people is a bad thing the armed wing of the organisation known as the police force tends to react badly, saying things like "well, maybe we won't shoot anyone then?" and generally behaving worse than a three year old without their favourite cuddly animal. So, in order to avoid that situation this time round the coroner at the inquest has told the jury that they cannot return a decision that Jean Charles de Menezes was unlawfully killed by the police.
 
 
trouble at bill
14:00 / 24.01.09
Indeed, the jury were directed to either lawful killing or open verdict and went for open verdict. Private Eye 1126 includes this:

It is clear that [the coroner] sympathised greatly with the officers who shot Mr de Menezes. [... He] even suggested that if the jury decided the officers were lying, about for example shouting a warning before opening fire (rejected by the jury), it might have been in order "to mitigate the impact of what might be a ... tragic mistake". Usually lying on oath is considered to be perjury and is frowned upon whatever the circumstances.
 
  

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