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Shooting on the tube

 
  

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Mon Oncle Ignatius
08:36 / 18.08.05
For lots of material on the shooting of Harry Stanley (yes, he was Scottish, and also demonised in the Dail Mail as often as possible, even to the point of trying to make it look like he was wanting to be shot by the police), I suggest a quick trawl through the relevant material at INQUEST, particularly the press release on the outcome of the recent judicial review of the inquest verdict. There is also a useful summary on Wikipedia.

The officers concerned are currently being investigated on suspicion of murder by Surrey police. They have not been charged as yet.
 
 
Quantum
08:54 / 18.08.05
'lawyer for the de Menezes family, Harriet Wistrich, earlier told the BBC they were doubtful of a transparent inquiry. "We want to know why the IPCC was prevented or failed to come in for five whole days," ' BBC news today

Shot eight times? For nothing? My faith in the police (and the decency of people in general) is crumbling.
 
 
Not Here Still
09:01 / 18.08.05
Re: Inquest.

There's also a press release about Jean Charles de Menezes on the Inquest website, in PDF form I think, which has a list of police shootings Inquest are looking into.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
09:17 / 18.08.05
I think it's important to note that INQUEST doesn't "look into" cases as such, not in an investigatory kind of way at least. It's far too small an organisation for that.

The organisation is there to assist the families of people who die in custody in particular - but not exclusively - and conducts research and draws policy conclusions from monitoring of deaths in custody and any casework with families. This includes their experiences of both the investigation by the IPCC (in police cases) and subsequent coroner's inquests and/or (on occasion) prosecutions.

It's worth noting that there has only been one conviction of a police officer in the last 36 years in relation to a death in custody (as opposed to road deaths) - and that was in 1969.
 
 
Not Here Still
09:31 / 18.08.05
I think it's important to note that INQUEST doesn't "look into" cases as such, not in an investigatory kind of way at least.

Poor phrasing on my part, I suppose. "Are concerned about," perhaps?

My experience of Inquest has been in its role as a campaigning organisation, and yes, "looking into" plus INQUEST's name does suggest investigation of a different kind to the one I meant.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
09:37 / 18.08.05
"Are concerned about," perhaps?

That's the best way to put it.
 
 
Supaglue
11:26 / 18.08.05
It's worth noting that there has only been one conviction of a police officer in the last 36 years in relation to a death in custody (as opposed to road deaths) - and that was in 1969.

Although it's debatable whether stanley or Menezes were in police custody at the time.

Also perhaps we should be looking at prosecutions of police officers rather than convictions
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
12:25 / 18.08.05
Although it's debatable whether stanley or Menezes were in police custody at the time.

Sorry, I should have said "at the hands of the police" to be more accurate. De Menezes may well have been if he was being restrained - but you're entirely correct in making the distinction.

Also perhaps we should be looking at prosecutions of police officers rather than convictions

There have been several prosecutions in recent years, including of the officers who shot James Ashley (another PDF) dead in his bed, but they have usually been dismissed on technicalities before even having a jury involved in making a decision of guilt or innocence. It is extremely rare for a prosecution to happen in cases of police shootings or deaths in police custody, even where an inquest has returned a verdict of unlawful killing.
 
 
Supaglue
13:34 / 18.08.05
Sorry Tang, didn't want it to look like a snark at you,. just didn't want to confuse the issue with, say, people who die in police custody, which is possibly a wider remit.

Yeah, it seems that there's mutliple hurdles for 'victims' families - first a favourable inquest verdict. Then the brick wall of CPS prosecution, followed by the closing of police ranks and difficulties of getting evidence from an institution that looks after its own.

So it seems an armed policeman, with the agenda of goverment can act with near impunity.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
14:19 / 18.08.05
Sorry Tang, didn't want it to look like a snark at you,. just didn't want to confuse the issue with, say, people who die in police custody, which is possibly a wider remit.

No problem - you were quite right to draw the distinction. It's essentially the same issue (the Right To Life under Article 2 of the HRA for a start), but there are different considerations and problems with deaths, say, in police cells.

So it seems an armed policeman, with the agenda of goverment can act with near impunity.

The evidence so far would seem to indicate that this may well be the case.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:19 / 16.11.05
ARMED police could face criminal charges for ignoring orders to shoot dead suspected suicide bombers. Yep, that's right, it could be illegal for armed police not to shoot you.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:48 / 16.11.05
...even if they use hollowpoints, which are illegal in war.
 
 
w1rebaby
11:39 / 16.11.05
Well, hollowpoints are quite routinely used in anti-terrorist stuff, because they're more lethal and less likely to go straight through targets and hit bystanders.

Plus, the Kratos policy apparently means "make sure the target is dead". The only way you are going to survive is if you manage to get away, which is unlikely to happen if you're shot even once, so the actual bullets used are not going to make a difference to whether you live or die; hollowpoints are just going to mean you die faster.

I suppose if you were armed yourself you'd have a better chance of being able to shoot back after being hit if they were using regular ammunition, but that's not a situation most of us are likely to ever be in.
 
 
Triplets
21:23 / 16.11.05
So, executed until proven innocent? A tad scary.
 
 
Seth
03:31 / 19.11.05
It strikes me that most of the misunderstandings surrounding ballistics and tactics in this thread could easily be cleared up if we had a Weapons Forum.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
10:22 / 09.12.05
Sky are reporting that Met police involved in the shooting of de Menezes may face charges. My understanding (from overhearing the end of the Sky News report) is that the IPCC is referring the files to the CPS for consideration. Won't link to the Sky story because it is a one liner at present, but would be interested if anyone has any further updates.

Not to get carried away, as it will probably take years and then the CPS will drop this, but I can't help but feel a glimmer of hope that the matter has been referred.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
12:29 / 09.12.05
BBC: Tube shooting charges "possible"
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:55 / 20.01.06
Ten police officers were facing the threat of criminal charges yesterday after an official report into the shooting dead of Jean Charles de Menezes found there might be sufficient evidence to prosecute them. The report by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) into the Brazilian's death was delivered to the Crown Prosecution Service, who will decide whether to bring charges.

But if this follows the Stanley case the armed police will strike on the grounds it's completely unreasonable to prosecute them for killing innocent people, then any attempt to prosecute the officers will be quietly dropped a few years down the line.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:16 / 19.02.06
The Independent reports the armed police won't be charged for shooting de Menezes but that the officers overseeing the operation will be charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice in a subsequent cover-up attempt.
 
 
pornotaxi
16:50 / 25.05.06
The cost of telling the truth
Media Guardian, Monday May 15, 2006

I'm sitting in an interview room in a police station somewhere in central London. A detective from Leicestershire constabulary's serious crime unit is handing me pieces of paper. "Have you ever seen these before?" he asks. "Has anyone ever passed them to you? Have you ever passed them on to anyone else?" The pieces of paper are copies of witness and police statements that formed the basis of the ITV News investigation into the Stockwell shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. Of course I've seen them before - I was the producer on the story. The detective knows I've seen them before, and he knows that I know that he knows I've seen them before. But, as I have done countless times that day, I reply in a flat monotone "no comment". The detective sighs, reaches for another statement and the process continues.

It is October 5 last year, possibly around 7pm - it's hard to tell without a watch. Earlier, at around 1pm, the police turned up at my house to arrest me. I was involved in an ITV News investigation exposing a series of police blunders leading to the shooting on July 22 2005 - the day after the failed London bombings.

Everyone was shocked when news first broke that a suspected terrorist had been shot on the London underground. Reports claimed he was acting suspiciously and wearing a bulky jacket. The public was led to believe he jumped over the ticket barrier at Stockwell tube station and charged down the escalator in what appeared to be another terrorist act. Witnesses seemed sure of what they'd seen.

Some reports speculated that perhaps plain clothes police had tried to stop him and that the Brazilian had panicked and run away - it later transpired that he had overstayed his visa.

But only a week later it emerged that the truth was far more disturbing. My girlfriend, Louise, was at a barbecue with a friend who worked at the Independent Police Complaints Commission. Knowing that I was a producer for ITV News, the friend, Lana Vandenberghe, told Louise she had some information about what really happened the day Jean Charles was shot.

Under surveillance

It took another two weeks to get the full picture - and when the ITV evening news on August 16 revealed the catastrophic failure of the surveillance operation it caused an absolute storm.

Police statements and witness accounts - all part of an internal IPCC investigation into the shooting - proved that Jean Charles was completely innocent. He had been mistaken for someone else as he left the block of flats under surveillance that morning. He wore a light denim jacket and was walking at a normal pace - he even picked up a Metro newspaper - as he walked into Stockwell station. He used a ticket to get through the barriers and was clearly unaware he was being followed. He had already taken a seat on the train when police officers stormed the carriage, wrestled him to the ground and shot him eight times.

The story quickly travelled around the world and ITV News was inundated with calls from newspapers and TV stations wanting to find out more. It made the front page of almost every British newspaper the next day.

For me personally, working on a story such as this represented everything journalism should be about: righting wrongs, exposing lies, standing up for someone who couldn't speak for himself.

But despite our efforts to protect the source and keep her identity hidden, it quickly gained currency in the media that the leak had come from within the IPCC.

Two days later, Lana was suspended. Within a week, her landlady - a colleague at the IPCC - evicted her.

Things got worse still when the IPCC called the police in to investigate the leak, and in a dawn raid at her new home on September 21, they arrested Lana on suspicion of theft, misconduct in a public office and various other misdemeanours.

My girlfriend Louise was next to be arrested, on October 5, in a second dawn raid by Leicestershire's serious crime unit, and called to warn me that I'd most likely be next. I wasn't really worried about that - I had been expecting it. I was more concerned for Louise - three weeks earlier, on my birthday, we found out that she was pregnant. Given the stress of the arrest and incarceration, I was desperately worried for the health of our baby.

A few hours later, I was taken by police to Bishopsgate Police Station in London. I was put in a cell without any clear idea if anyone knew exactly where I was. On my way in, I noticed a pair of shoes outside the cell next to mine. I recognised them - they belonged to Louise. She had been there for eight hours and I had no way of knowing if she was OK.

Perhaps three hours passed before I saw my lawyer. In fact, he had arrived some two hours earlier, but the police said it "hadn't been convenient" for me to see him then.

A lack of suitable rooms at Bishopsgate meant a drive to another station for my interview. The detectives wanted to establish the link between Lana, Louise and me, but my lawyer advised me not to answer any questions.

The officers were clearly frustrated by this and resorted to a good cop/bad cop routine. One suggested that if I'd done nothing wrong there was no reason not to talk to them, the other warned that I was an accessory to a very serious crime and my silence was making matters worse.

Bug sweeper

It was late by the time I eventually got home. Tired and angry, I opened the front door to discover that my flat had been raided and searched. Laptops, mobile phones, cameras, CD-Roms, even press cuttings from around the time of the De Menezes reports had been taken.

The flat was a complete mess, and only the most cursory effort had been made to put things back. Oddly, a chair from the bedroom had been left in the bathroom. A carbon copy of a warrant was casually left on the fridge.

It was the chair that threw me. What was it doing in the bathroom? It was positioned right under the light fitting and all sorts of questions went through my head.

Had I been bugged? I decided not to take any chances and went to an electronics store the next day to buy a bug sweeper, which I ran over the flat.

I didn't find anything but that did nothing to assuage the feelings of paranoia, especially after being warned that my landline could well be tapped and any email accounts almost certainly raided. I even found myself checking out a white van that had been parked for days across the road from my flat.

Over the next eight months, Louise, Lana and I would answer bail a further four times. Each time, police could see Louise's baby bump getting bigger, but this did not deter them from locking her up in a cell, sometimes for several hours. Once they offered her a blanket infested with lice. Another time, they offered her no food or drink for over five hours, despite the canteen being just minutes away.

Interviews made it clear the police had delved into our bank accounts and credit records. Text messages retrieved from our phones were read out to us. Silly everyday emails about money, or the lack of it, were twisted and interpreted as a financial motive for the alleged crime.

The police were thorough, I'll give them that - but they just could not seem to countenance the idea that the only motivation was a desire on the part of our IPCC source to get the truth out. The only solace was that we hadn't been arrested under the Terrorism Act. One day in a police cell is bad enough, 28 days must be a nightmare.

The investigation was dropped this month. At the time of writing, no charges have been brought against any of the officers involved directly or indirectly in the shooting.

Jean Charles was innocent. But since his death he has been presented as a terrorist, an illegal immigrant, even a rapist. That this last allegation was completely untrue barely warranted a mention in most of the mainstream media. It's quite conceivable no one will ever be held to account for his death. But his family want, and are entitled to, justice. If I had to, I would do all this again. I would want someone to do the same for my child.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:35 / 25.05.06
That's disgusting. Bloody hell...
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:22 / 25.05.06
There's a lesson to be learned there: no matter where in the world you are: UK, Brazil, Iraq, Congo, or China, Police is always the same - they fuck up, try to cover it all up, persecute anyone who tries to tell the truth, and then walk on it, un-punished.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:47 / 26.05.06
It's easy enough to go on about teh pigs and so forth, but they really don't do themselves any favours, either.

There must be any number of eye witnesses - if an unarmed, and apparently entirely innocent man was forced to the floor of the crowded tube carriage I was standing in, and then shot eight times, I'm pretty sure I'd remember it quite clearly, possibly in nightmares, for the rest of my life. And yet there's apparently still some confusion about what actually happened.

If this had been a *proper* crime, if it had been about drugs, money etc, then at least there'd have been a point to it. As it is though, this utterly senseless fuck-up seems likely to pass away uncensured because nobody wants to deal with the idea that some of the police in this country aren't fit to carry round pop guns, never mind heavy ordnance.

It's a bleak view, admittedly, but it's one that by not prosecuting the dangerous incompetents involved, the police, and New Labour, are doing nothing whatsoever to dispell.

And yet we're expected, as UK citizens, to agree to all kinds of human rights abuses re: 'suspected terrorists,' because those are the powers that the police feel they need.

On current form, I'd rather give my house keys to a crack addict, really.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
11:49 / 17.07.06
There are to be No criminal charges in De Menezes shooting.

Apparently, they are planning a prosecution under health and safety rules, however. These decisions so disgust me that I am currently beyond words. We won't get to see the report by the IPCC until after any H&S prosecution - I'm sure most of those involved will be hoping that this allows plenty of time for the incident to be further from people's minds by the time this is made available.

Health & safety prosecution. Okay, I might be wrong, but I believe that any resulting punishment for this would be a fine. So the publicly funded Met Police could be fined for killing an innocent man - meaning, as someone who lives in London, that I and everyone I know has to pay while all those who did the killing and were involved in this outrage get off scot free. I'll bet Blair doesn't even lose his fucking job.

Fuck em all. Bastards. I cannot possibly imagine how his family and friends must feel.
 
 
Supaglue
13:08 / 17.07.06
Health & safety prosecution. Okay, I might be wrong, but I believe that any resulting punishment for this would be a fine.

Not wanting to detract from the fact that it looks like the CPS have shirked away from prosecution (although, obviously no-one in the public has seen the evidence); the Health and Safety executive do have powers of prosecution that can result in prison sentences, the sentence is obviously not as high as murder, mind.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:17 / 17.07.06
I'm trying to look at this as charitably as possible, and hope that someone in the HSE was outraged that no criminal charges were being brought, and said "hang on a minute... is there anything WE can do? Really? Whoah. Let's do that then!"

But it seems unlikely to be true.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
13:19 / 17.07.06
Supaglue - that is indeed some welcome news at least in a situation where all the news seems really shit. Going on initial reports online and interviews/pundits on BBC since the announcement was made, I was very much under the misapprehension that MetP would face fines.

I'm not really clear how this can work though - if no individual (and my understanding is that the IPCC and CPS looked not just at the officers directly involved in the shooting but others involved in the operation as well) could be held responsible on any charges, who would serve the time for MetP if the organisation was found guilty of H&S breaches and handed prison sentences?

Getting ahead of myself anyway - thanks for the clarification. I look forward to finding out what the extent of the punishment could be under a H&S prosecution.
 
 
Supaglue
13:54 / 17.07.06
Ah. I'm not saying the offences that the HSE finally decide to charge the Met with will automatically result in imprisonment. Off hand I think its up to 2 years imprisonemnt depending the offence. Fine may still well be the more likely though, I don't know.

As for how it works, I think the HSE will look more at the systems and whether they comply with H&S regulatuions. To prosecute they look at things like whether the breach in regs resulted in death, whether there was reckless disregard of the regs, stuff like that. God knows what the regulations stipulate for carrying firearms though!

I think the Met Comissioner will be the one formally indicted, but I suppose any level of management can be prosecuted depending on the evidence.

Stoats: Nice idea! Now a private prosecution might be worth considering. All you need is a bit of money.....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:05 / 17.07.06
Ah. I'm not saying the offences that the HSE finally decide to charge the Met with will automatically result in imprisonment. Off hand I think its up to 2 years imprisonemnt depending the offence. Fine may still well be the more likely though, I don't know.

Given that the HSE is investigating for a case against the office of the Commissioner, rather than the Commissioner himself, I don't think this can result in a jail sentence...

Meanwhile, Ken Livingstone's transformation into Melanie Phillips continues apace. Apparently al-Qaeda will not be paying attention to Health and Safety Regulations when planning _their_ next atrocity. No, Ken, they won't. That's why they're terrorists and we're civil society. We have laws, and we live within them, and accept responsibility when we contravene them.
 
 
Quantum
16:42 / 17.07.06
al-Qaeda will not be paying attention to Health and Safety Regulations when planning _their_ next atrocity.

...wheras the police *will* be paying scrupulous attention to H&S regs when planning *their* next atrocity.
 
 
Quantum
17:50 / 17.07.06
A conviction on that offense carries an unlimited fine for the department but no suspensions or other punishment for any individual, prosecutors said.

Yup, a fine at most. Where does the money go from the fine I wonder? Shuffling cash from one part of the public funds to another seems a bit ineffectual as a deterrent to stop innocent people getting shot dead by public servants.
 
 
redtara
18:23 / 17.07.06
Dredging something out of the deepest darkest pit at the back of my head so might be a load of old shit,... But, arn't the directors of companies now responsible for HSE infractions that cause a death even if they are in no way connected to the event or the people concerned in the usual criminal liability way.

If this IS the case, then maybe this HSE prosecution might bring down other bigger characters, chief cuntsables and the like. What about a one-time Home Secretary or even a Prime Minister.

Otherwise it's just another reason to hang your head in shame when addmitting to being British. Might try being Armenian for a bit.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:27 / 17.07.06
Hey, even knocking down the other Blair would be a result.
 
 
pornotaxi
22:20 / 17.07.06
ACAB
 
 
Supaglue
07:58 / 18.07.06
Checked the CPS statement - Section 3 & 33.

Checked the legislation and it seems offences under those sections are unlimited fine only, so it's back to what you said, Tabitha - nothing is really going to come of all this.

Hopefully the investigation will open up other offences or give rise to a review by the CPS.

As for corporate manslaughter, I think its the remit of the CPS to consider, and we already know their view.
 
  

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