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Calendar reform - it's about time

 
  

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nyarlathotep's shoe horn
15:53 / 17.07.05
while reading the history of our calendar, from pre-empire days in Rome (or thereabouts) to Pope Gregory XIII, who eliminated 10 days from october in 1582, I realised that it's a pretty awkward means of measuring the year. It's been patched together from a 10 month measure of the agricultural seasons (no one counted the winter months), then changed again to take the Empire into account (July and August), and again to re-synchronise the solar and lunar cycles with one another.

there are far far better means of measuring the days of the year, like the 13-moon calendar (which was developed by Jose Arguilles recently as the "dreamspell" based on mayan calendrics, but the druids and others also used 13 month calendars also).

so, 13 months of 28 days each, with one day left over (two in a leap year). Each month has four weeks of seven days. Every week begins on Sunday, ends on Saturday. Every month begins on Sunday ends on Saturday. Every year begins on Sunday, ends on Saturday.

the extra day, the day out of time, isn't a day of the week, and falls between saturday and sunday (and falls on July 25th in the dreamspell system).

so... does this seem like a better system for measuring time? I think so, but I'm curious about 'lither opinion.

I understand that the conversion from the Gregorian to the 13-moon will have its challenges. If we manage to do it by 2009, then the first day of the new year, July 26, falls on a Sunday. the rest follows.

I've been following it for some time now, but being the only person around who does, it limits its effectiveness.

thoughts?
tenix
 
 
Laughing
18:23 / 17.07.05
How about the Discordian calendar? Worth a try, I think.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
19:04 / 17.07.05
I like the discordian one...

particularly the names of the months, days, weeks, etc...

I'm all for finding interestinger names for our months, because "September" as the ninth month is just plain dumb..

now, Pungenday, that's something we can all agree on!

ttfn
tenix
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:45 / 17.07.05
These calendars do seem to make more logical sense in some ways, but would they work better? Would there be an actual benefit to using them? What actual problems are caused by the current one?

It's just that to expect everyone to suddenly switch calendar systems seems a bit harsh. It'd be a huge undertaking. What would we get out of it? Surely it's a bit like swapping a perfectly good tractor for an equally good one that looks a bit different, just because the Mayans made it?

I'm not saying there wouldn't be benefits, I'm just asking you tell me what they are because I can't see any pragmatic qualities your suggested calendars have that ours don't.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
20:09 / 17.07.05
valid question Legba,

but it's not that the 13-moons is just a bit different.
each of the 13 months is the same. 28 days long.

whereas with our current one, Jan has 31 days, Feb 28 or 29, Mar 30, etc etc

If january 1st is a tuesday, what day of the week is Sep 12?
the gregorian calendar doesn't make for easy calculation, whereas with the 13 moon, it's simple.

the 12th day of every month is thursday. for every year.

the gregorian calendar repeats itself every 28 years, such that every day of the week falls on the same calendar day.

the 13 moon calendar is the same every year.

it a more elegant tool, and would simplify a lot of our scheduling and calendrics.

I wouldn't suggest such an overhaul because it's different, but because it's more elegant. It would simplify our lives in this one, very fundamental respect.

I've tried to dissociate this particular annual calendar from the mayan ones, as they get really complex in their own way. They have their own advantages, but I don't want to complicate the issue. We don't have to adopt their system to use the 13-moon calendar.

Are there any benefits to our current system other than the fact that it's our current system and we're familiar with it?

I'm not proposing a drastic change. 2009 is a little ways off. And I don't think it's practical to suggest doing away with the Gregorian altogether. I think 13-moons would work better as a global standard over the gregorian (which anyone can still choose to observe, just as the chinese, hebrews, muslims, etc use their own calendrical systems in addition to the gregorian).

ta
tenix
 
 
sine
04:59 / 20.07.05
Lunar calendar? Ridiculous. Just the thought risks angering Our Radiant Lord and incurring His wrath in sunspot form.

Everybody knows that we should have 12 months of 30 days each - each month shall be made up of three weeks of ten days - s'metric, innit? - leaving 5 holiday days that fall outside of the calendar proper and during which no mortal law holds. We'll call them "End Days" and cheerily say "Can't wait for the End Days!" and "Enjoy the End Days!" and greeting card companies will be thrilled that they can finally offload all that unsold millennial stock.
 
 
Quantum
09:43 / 20.07.05
How about the Pataphysical Calendar?

'Months:

Absolu - 28 days
Haha (Maha) - 28 days
As - 28 days
Sable - 28 days
Décervelage - 28 days
Gueules (Gueles) - 28 days
Pédale - 28 days
Clinamen - 28 days
Palotin - 28 days
Merdre - 28 days
Gidouille - 29 days
Tatane - 28 days
Phalle - 28 days
Each starting with Sunday and proceeding through 4 weeks of 7 days, with traditional Western day names (see Gregorian) so that each month has a Friday the 13th.

The 29th day of Gidouille is called "imaginary" and has no named day of the week. In a leap-year, Gueules is also given an "imaginary" 29th day.'

(from http://www.kelsung.com/calendar/pataphysical.htm)


Let's reform the qwerty keyboard while we're at it, and make a base 10 clock with 100 minutes to the hour.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:58 / 20.07.05
the 12th day of every month is thursday. for every year.

No calender surprises for the rest of my life? I don't think so Mr.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:47 / 20.07.05
If you gave me a ruler with all these different length mesurements on it, and told me each one was an inch, I would say it was a shit ruler.

That's what the Gregorian calendar is like, only with months.
 
 
Olulabelle
15:07 / 20.07.05
But to follow the 13 moon calendar you really have to have a spiritual relationship with it. I wouldn't suggest just using it simply as a measuring tool. In fact one principle of the 13 moon calander is that we (as humans measuring time) run in synchronicity and harmony with the rest of the universe.

I think this thread would be better in the Temple. It's hard to talk about the time-measurement aspect of the 13 moon calendar without the rest of the belief system it encompasses, but aren't the two inextricably linked? If you talk about the 13 moon calendar you have to refer to the Law of Time, since the 13 moon calendar is the "primary social application of the Law of Time".

The Planet Art network (Wavespell) who are key promoters of the 13 moon calendar state that the Law of Time: " is a comprehensive whole system discovery which demonstrates that time is the universal factor of synchronization. The principle formulation of the Law of Time -T(E) = Art, Energy factored by Time equals Art - accounts for the intrinsic elegance of all natural phenomena."

And that In its essence, time is a frequency expressed as a mathematical ratio constant, 13:20. This constant defines a whole new realm of reality, the synchronic order. This is the fourth dimensional realm where synchronicity is the norm and can actually be mapped out by mathematical codes based on the ratio constant 13:20.

By means of this constant it can be demonstrated that the present civilization is not coordinated by the universal frequency of synchronization, but by an artificial timing frequency which is a major factor contributing to the present global crisis."


So:

"The primary social application of the Law of Time is the Thirteen Moon/28 day calendar. By making the Thirteen Moon/28-day cycle the harmonic (13:20) standard of everyday time measurement, replacing the irregular twelve-month global standard, the Law of Time establishes a new foundation for the reformulation of the human mind and its systems of knowing."

Because of this, I think Headshop mods should move this thread. We'll be much better able to have this discussion over there.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
15:59 / 20.07.05
I posted it here specifically because of the social implications (or philosophical ones) as opposed to the spiritual. I was also dissociating the 13-moon calendar from the dreamspell. The dreamspell has a lot more layers to it which complicate the issue for those who are unfamiliar with it.

and the new-agey terminology gives me hives.

the dreamspell system becomes complicated quickly, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to adopt it as a spiritual exercise.

it's an eloquent ruler. You don't have to have a deeply spiritual connection to the universe to adopt relativity into your perspective. (unless you count science as a spiritual discipline, but I don't really want to open that can of worms in this thread).
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:54 / 20.07.05
sine:

the mayan Haab calendar has 18 months of 20 days with 5 'chaos' days, when it's best to just sit at home and avoid the cavalcade of daemons undoubtedly running amok in the streets.

it's still better than the crapola we're using now.

so, is anyone agreed to wanting to change our means of measuring time??? (I'm not going to delve into the potential for breaking up the clock differently - I think it was the Sumerians got it started with the 24 hours and 60 minutes, but my sources on that are a bit sketchy).

If mods want to move this to Temple, so be it.

who am I to argue. I don't wear a watch.

"what time is it?"
"daytime"

ten ix
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:58 / 20.07.05
Just to say, I think there's enough social discussion here to keep it in the headshop. On with the thread.

No disrespect to Wavespell, but while "the Law of Time establishes a new foundation for the reformulation of the human mind and its systems of knowing" sounds good and desirable it still doesn't explain in concrete detail exactly what positive effects we could hope to see, does it?

Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of a big, shocking change like this, in as much as the shock of such a basic, underpinning system as our calendar changing suddenly could, possibly, cause the 4000 (?) years of accumulated layers of prejudice and narrow thinking to crumble away, which is what I think Wavespell are getting at.

It strikes me that we're looking at this from an educated, 1st world viewpoint: that is after all how we end up with easy acess to knowledge of where the calendar comes from and of other calendars from around the world.

Presumably, this calendar change is supposed to be worldwide. Okay, so you're a farmer in the third world. Farmers have a complex, set rota based on the calendar. The planting season, the milking season, they all come at certain times.

Suddenly, someone from outside decides the calendar you base everything on should be changed. Which causes a complete fuck up, and chaos of the bad kind, for a long time before this hypotheical (and still fuzzily defined) "positive effect" kicks in. People could lose their lives.

This isn't to say that the 3rd world knows any less about calendars than we do, it's just that some people have a lot more invested in the dates than we might realise.

Okay. So supposing we don't go with the worldwide change. Suppose some nations use the old calendar while some use the new. Huge communication problem between them, surely? Huge potential for "othering", surely?

If you can come up with a solution to these two situations, please do. Again, I'm not just shouting this idea down because it's new, I just think it needs to be examined.
 
 
Axolotl
07:15 / 21.07.05
Realistically though reforming the calendar would be a mind-bogglingly complicated and expensive task. Look at how much the Millennium Bug cost to fix, and that was a relatively minor fix, now imagine re-writing all banking software, in fact any software where the date is calculated. Not to mention all the other infrastructure that uses the calendar in some way.
And why? Because doing so will some how reform the human mind and sweep away all our problems. I'm sorry but I really fail to see how doing one will cause the other.
I agree that the Gregorian calendar is mess, but it works, and without some concrete evidence that changing it will provide some major benefits, I just can't see that it would be worth changing.
 
 
hoatzin
08:40 / 21.07.05
I know nothing about the spiritual ramifications of this calendar, but on a practical level it is simple and elegant. In UK we managed to change to decimal currency with vastly less upset than predicted [anyone else in Barbelith remember?] and more recently Euros have become recognised currency almost without anyone noticing. A ten hour, hundred minute day would be nice too. School kids would have a lot less to learn.
The days out of time would be a problem. What about people born on these days? And the economy would find it difficult as described. Is it exactly one day per year?
 
 
Quantum
10:40 / 21.07.05
I think this thread would be better in the Temple. It's hard to talk about the time-measurement aspect of the 13 moon calendar without the rest of the belief system it encompasses, but aren't the two inextricably linked? 'lula

No! I virulently disagree! They're not inextricably linked at all, the lunar calendar is not necessarily tied to pseudo-mayan new aginess. I'm about to start a Temple thread about the mystic side of it, but the practical aspect of replacing our calendar with another belongs here.

There are loads of lunar calendars, most prehistoric cultures would have used it to measure the year. Yes the Gregorian calendar is a bit rubbish, but so are most others. A decimal calendar is nonsense, because of the time it takes for the Earth to spin around and orbit the sun, a day is not an arbitrary unit, nor a year.
365.25 days in a year, doesn't divide into 10 very well.
 
 
Quantum
10:45 / 21.07.05
A ten hour, hundred minute day would be nice too

Then we'd all be getting up in the middle of the night within a few days (or about 17 hours, which is 1000 minutes). The body's natural (circadian) rhythm of waking and sleeping is about 25 hours. While a ten hour day might be easy to learn for kids, we'd all go mad in under a week and society would collapse.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:47 / 21.07.05
Legba Rex posted:
Farmers have a complex, set rota based on the calendar. The planting season, the milking season, they all come at certain times.

July 26, the new year day, coincides with the heliacal rising of Sirius. This was the day the Nile began its seasonal flooding (according to James Burke in the first episode of Connections). This gave the Egyptians a solid date around which to base their calendar.

I don't see what advantages there are to the Gregorian calendar for any farmer. As long as the season's don't drift (which is the whole point of observing the extra day on the leap year). I think farmers have far more to worry about from global warming shifting their last frost dates around.

Suddenly, someone from outside decides the calendar you base everything on should be changed.

I agree that forcing people to adopt it is counterproductive. If enough people begin to use it, it will catch on by critical mass. If not enough do, forcing it on folks isn't going to help. I don't think everyone will welcome it - as this discussion makes clear - but I don't think it should be implemented at gun point or under threat of legal repurcussion.

Advantages? Its eloquence is my selling point. I think that using an elegant technology over an inelegant one is almost always preferable.

Most of us have only had computers available to us for a couple of decades at the most. I don't feel I'm ready to surrender my freedom of choice based on the restrictions to which they are currently bound.

I'll give it more thought, and try to present you with a better argument for the advantages.

ten ix
 
 
grant
15:37 / 21.07.05
Suppose some nations use the old calendar while some use the new. Huge communication problem between them, surely? Huge potential for "othering", surely?



Have you seen a Chinese calendar?

Each little square has two sets of numbers -- one for the lunar calendar, one for the Western/solar calendar.

Here's a pdf of one, and here are links to better ones. The Chinese characters are numbers -- the cross is a 10, and 1, 2, & 3 are the corresponding number of horizontal lines.

Notice, for instance, that on this pdf, the date of January 29 is actually the 20th of whatever lunar month. I also love the pajama lady picture.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
04:22 / 23.07.05
A regular measure of time such as the thirteen months of twenty-eight days (one intercalary day). The rhythm of our economy will change. If you get paid once, twice or four times a month, payday will create a regular economic rhythm.

I get paid every 2 weeks, but rent's still due on the first of the month. Every month the number of days between payday and rent (or bills, interest payments, etc) changes, depending on the billing system, the number of days of the month, and how payday falls in relation to them.

13 month calendar, every month can look the same (if we go to the trouble of using it for its advantages). Rent's due Sunday 1st, pay's on Friday 13th and 27th, bills due on Monday 16th.

Just imagine how such a regular rhythm in the measurement of the days would change your daily, monthly, annual rhythm. The repetition of it would reinforce our perception of the cyclical (or elliptical) nature of time. Planetary orbits and axial spins.

That regularity, and its innate rhythm are the advantages. It changes our perception, as much as time zones changed our perception, allowing us to synchronize local train schedules, among other things, or daylight savings changes our perception.

who's for having our paradigms shifted?

tenIx
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:44 / 23.07.05
I don't know, it all sounds suspiciously like a load of hokey New-Age balls to me, the only advantage of this calender is that you know each year what day your birthday is going to be, and how does that practcally help anything?

I think that if reform is needed it's not so much of the calnder but of the way the society that uses that calnder operates, things like the school year, we don't need a six week holiday in the middle of the year any more because we're not releasing thousands of kids to help gather the crops in on their parents farm. Is starting the financial year in April a good idea? And so on...
 
 
Quantum
10:23 / 23.07.05
I'm against replacing one arbitrary flawed system with another. Imagine the complications of changing every clock in the world- how many do you own? Computers, phones, almost all electronics, remember the Millennium bug trauma?

The benefits in no way compare to the massive drawbacks.

'There is a problem with a lunar calendar in that the moon is very very wobbly, th'inconstant moon as Shakespeare calls it . It does not cycle, returning to the next dark moon or full moon, on an even number of days - its month is 29.5 days on average and this can change from one month to the next depending. The moon phase cycle depends on up to about half a dozen different factors which affect the apparent motion of the sun and the moon. These factors can line up at different ways at different times, so the time from one full moon to the next is always changing, and can sometimes differ by more than a day between adjacent cycles (Bailey). The Coligny system follows the average lunar cycle with great accuracy but is sometimes a day out because of these wobbles, but on average in any solar year by having six of the months 29 days long and six 30 days long it stays as close to the moon as possible.'

From this pro-calendar change website

having six of the months 29 days long and six 30 days long it stays as close to the moon as possible.
Why is that better than the current system?
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
17:16 / 23.07.05
quantum wrote:
Imagine the complications of changing every clock in the world- how many do you own? Computers, phones, almost all electronics, remember the Millennium bug trauma?

this says more about our attachments. How long have computers been a familiar part of our lives at home and work? fifteen years? twenty? After such a relatively short period of time, are we really so inextricably bound to them?

I remember the switch from imperial (arbitrary faulty system) for metric (also arbitrary and faulty, but more eloquent and easier to remember - the increase in hard drive space on computers has given us reason to repeat all those evasive prefixes - kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-).

why assume that a change to another form of measurement of time will be so apocalyptically disruptive? It's one possibility, but not an inevitable one.

I've been hem-hawing over this whole subject because of the new-ageness that permeates much of it. Maybe it will attune us to the galactic centre, stretching the kuxac sum to the Sun to the core of the milky way, hunab ku. Nice bonus, if that should happen, but I'm not convinced it's a selling point to farmers in Bangladesh.

the regularity of the measure is. That includes tidying up our monthly and annual schedules, whether it be economic, domestic, civic or personal agendas according to a regular, easily predictable schedule. This makes anticipation more intuitive, as a regular rhythm, once one gets used to it, settles into our subconscious, requiring less of our conscious attention.

The moon cycles are a whole other can of worms, and trying to synchronise the lunar and solar calendars has been a noble exercise throughout history.

The 13-moon dreamspell calendar proposes that they have done so, although the moon's 28 day cycle is one in which its axial position returns to the same location in the sky or somesuch. Nothing easily observable from Earth. I find its usefulness limited.

really - why so much attachment to our pieced together mishmash of cultural detritus dating back to the pre-Etruscans? I understand there are reservations due to the disruption. Gregory XIII eliminated 10 days from October (maybe it was November) 1582. It lead to riots.

What disruption do you fear? tedium? media over-hype? a new year's devoid of celebration? those are the results of all the panic over Y2K. lots of fear over, what turned out to be, nothing. The potential may have been there, but in the end, it was nothing.

have you seen the state of the world? It's already in a critical state of disruption. Does our calendar reflect our cultural chaos more than we realize? does our cultural chaos result from the calendar?

just a speculation.

tenix
 
 
Quantum
14:00 / 25.07.05
I remember the switch from imperial for metric

Time is not Money. Despite reports to the contrary. The monetary system a country adopts is arbitrary and varies wildly all over the world, from Marks to Yen. A day is a day all over the world*. Sunrise to sunset. A year is the same length, so is a month, they're not arbitrary units like £, $ or Francs, they're the result of celestial mechanics which we can't control. The difficulty in calendrical overhaul is in no way compensated by the benefits of a mad new system.

All those who want calendar reform, I say to you 'Why?'

The reasons presented for reform seem tenuous to me- 'it's neater', 'it matches the phases of the moon better (kind of)', 'it's easier for kids to learn'. Better cause is needed before I consider changing the calendar I live by, this smacks of change for it's own sake.



*notable exceptions being the far north and south where they have six month long days etc. and I don't think a reformed calendar will deal with that any better.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:28 / 25.07.05
tenix quantum wrote:Imagine the complications of changing every clock in the world- how many do you own? Computers, phones, almost all electronics, remember the Millennium bug trauma?

this says more about our attachments. How long have computers been a familiar part of our lives at home and work? fifteen years? twenty? After such a relatively short period of time, are we really so inextricably bound to them?


Yes Tyler, and the things you own start owning you. But why should I pay someone money to change chips over in my electrical goods when the new system of telling time doesn't really do me any good?
 
 
grant
16:10 / 25.07.05
Actually, years and months are a little arbitrary. Seasons aren't arbitrary. But the idea of leap years (which is a relatively new concept) kind of shows that the calendar we have is flawed.

And not everyone follows the same months, either -- the Hebrew calendar is lunar, but not the same lunar as the aforementioned Chinese.

And these are both living calendars, actively used and very important to the people who use them. They're not theoretical or historical curiosities. People get vacations based on them, man!
 
 
hoatzin
16:51 / 25.07.05
The basic units are years and days [solar] and months [lunar]. These may alter gradually with time, but
anything else can be altered as we see fit. Hours, minutes, weeks are just measuring devices from one astronomical event to the next. So we could divde our day into 10 hours quite simply. We don't need weeks either, they're just conveniences.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:55 / 25.07.05
our system of dividing up the days is arbitrary, not the ratio of rotations of Earth around her axis to orbits around the Sun.

we can number and divide up the days however we choose. We're clinging to a crap means of doing this.

Those who voiced opposition to change haven't sold me on our current system. I've heard arguments against reform because of a lack of perceived benefits.

what benefits are there to our current system? Because we're used to it? Because we're hopelessly attached to a means of measurement that's irregular? There's no question that change will cause disruption, it always does, particularly for those resistant to it.

there are enough people following multiple calendars. You can still base computers on the Gregorian, although they'd likely work better on the Julian system, and translate that into whatever calendrical system you like.

what I don't get is all the resistance.

the argument is for the establishment of a regular rhythm to the way in which we measure our days. It changes the way you think, as your unconscious picks up the rhythm. Our current system is irregular, and disruptive, and requires constant intervention from our conscious thoughts to figure out what fricken day of the week, month, year, and how that relates to all the things we've scheduled against it, whether that's a birthday party, a weekly class, or daily calesthenics.

But I can't convince you this. Just listen to a hypnotic, regular, repetitively rhythmic music - acid jazz or progressive trance or such. See how it affects the way you think and feel. Play something discordant, chaotic, like jungle or avant-guard jazz. what's the difference in how you think and feel.

I think it's comparable.

Today's the day out of time. and the new year's tomorrow.
can you feel the intercalary nature of it all???

ciao for niao
TenIx
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:05 / 25.07.05
You talk about the Chinese using their own calendar. But is theirs any more logical than our own?

I appreciate you've not heard any defense of the Gregorian system other than "change would bring disruption". Well, it would. Immense disruption. You can't blame people for being practical. Just because a position could be read as "passive" or "conservative" does not mean it is wrong. I mean, could you provide us with a ten step plan for calendar change that shows us how non-lethal and smooth it could be?

What you seem to be saying- and please correct me if I'm wrong- is that because you've heard "bad" things about the new proposal, but people are just "neutral" about the current system, as opposed to seeing it as "good", we should change to the new one?

Also a little worried by your statement that it would bring more disruption for those "resistant to change"- seems to tar with the same brush those who political conservatives, and those without the resources to make an easy transition, and the progressives who fear for the aforementioned disadvantaged.
 
 
mixmage
21:59 / 25.07.05
Doot!

kin 103: Blue Crystal Night

I Dedicate in order to Dream
Universalizing Intuition
I seal the Input of Abundance
With the Crystal tone of Cooperation
I am guided by the power of Vision

Here's to the next cycle, Year of the Yellow Cosmic Seed.

kin 104: Yellow Cosmic Seed

I Endure in order to Target
Transcending Awareness
I seal the Input of Flowering
With the Cosmic tone of Presence
I am guided by the power of Elegance
 
 
Olulabelle
08:14 / 26.07.05
Happy new year.

Quantum, I don't think Hoatzin was suggesting that we continue with the sixty minute measurement for an hour when referring to ten hour days, and actually was positing a division of the day by ten rather than the current and fairly arbitrary twenty four.

I also think that was fairly clear, and for you to suggest that Hoatzin really thought we should all start getting up in the middle of the night when what we're talking about is a neater, more rhythmic and precise way of measuring time is a bit odd, and feels a bit like you didn't really read the post properly to me. Maybe you were a bit too keen to start saying what you thought?

With regard to the 'pseudo mayan new-ageiness', and the 'hokey new-age balls,' lots of people who follow this calendar do subscribe to those beliefs, which is why it is hard for them to talk singularly about measuring time with the calendar without referring to the other aspects of the system. However, any reference to those things in the Headshop will be met with derision. In the Temple one can refer to spiritual elements of subjects whilst still having intellectual debate, whereas in the Headshop this is not so acceptable.

Regardless, the Headshop mods have spoken and now we shall soon have two calendar threads, one of which already contains quite a lot of discussion on the 13 moon system. Presumably in the meantime at least a nod to the acceptance of the spiritual elements some people hold dear can happen here too though.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:18 / 26.07.05
tenix Those who voiced opposition to change haven't sold me on our current system. I've heard arguments against reform because of a lack of perceived benefits.

And that's not enough? You have two equally good/bad/flawed systems, so in the end inertia gets the casting vote. I'm happy to keep on asking until you give a good reason, luckily I seem to be some sort of mutant who is generally quite aware of what day it is, has various devices to hand on the rare occasions (normally birthdays and christmas) I need to know what day a date falls on, and structures their life (possibly overmuch) into something approaching a regular rhythm.

And I enjoy music that is both regular and irregular, so your junglism doesn't really persuade me much.

Bo Selecta.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:36 / 26.07.05
Presumably in the meantime at least a nod to the acceptance of the spiritual elements some people hold dear can happen here too though.

I certainly have no problem in accepting that some people have spiritual beliefs that they hold dear and which they feel are relevant to the discussion. But, if one doesn't share those beliefs, then they just aren't very convincing. Part of the problem (though not necessarily the most fundamental one) is that different people have different beliefs which lead them to different conclusions. So, according to Wikipedia, the Gregorian calender orients itself around the vernal equinox and, if I've understood correctly, this is connected with the placement of Easter, though given the way Easter moves I'm not sure how this justification works.

So, the Gregorian calender *is* an attempt at regularity with respect to a certain measure of a season. And a lunar based calender, if I have understood this correctly, won't be as regular with respect to season (tenix says this isn't a problem, but I'm not so sure). All of which rather suggests to me that the justification in terms of regularity is really another arbitrary choice (and thats all before my spidey senses start tingling at the idea that a "regular" calender will help alleviate the world's "cultural chaos").
 
 
Quantum
09:56 / 26.07.05
we can number and divide up the days however we choose Tenix
I refer you to the Pataphysical calendar above, it has lunar months and is as arbitrary as the one being proposed here. Why the Mayan calendar and not the surrealist calendar?

Those who voiced opposition to change haven't sold me on our current system. Tenix
As noted above by 51stC Lady, nobody has to sell it to you, it's already in place. In order to change it you have to sell it to us.

Quantum, I don't think Hoatzin was suggesting that we continue with the sixty minute measurement for an hour when referring to ten hour days, and actually was positing a division of the day by ten rather than the current and fairly arbitrary twenty four...feels a bit like you didn't really read the post properly to me. Olulabelle
A ten hour, hundred minute day would be nice too. Hoatzin
Don't think I misread the post, I think it's poor math. Maybe ze meant making an hour 2.4 hours long but I don't think so. I think ze meant dividing the day into ten hours, each into a hundred minutes.
Again I say, that would be a day that was only seventeen hours long, or else we redefine a minute as a hundred seconds in which case it's (10x100x100= 100,000secs = 27.8 hours by the current antiquated time measurement system) a twenty eight hour day.
Can we make the day 28 hours long or 17? No. Unless we redefine a second to be 1.157 seconds long, in order to more naturally harmonise with nature and have a more regular life. Do we want to reform how long a second is?
Or are we just talking about Calendar reform, not clock reform too? How far should we reform?

Olulabelle, I in no way wish to offend anyone's beliefs which is why I seperate the calendar from the paradigm. I have no problem with people believing in the dreamspell or whatever, but I do object to muddy thinking about time. Discussing whether an alternate calendar is possible is definitely Headshop material, while things like this;

In its essence, time is a frequency expressed as a mathematical ratio constant, 13:20. This constant defines a whole new realm of reality, the synchronic order. This is the fourth dimensional realm where synchronicity is the norm and can actually be mapped out by mathematical codes based on the ratio constant 13:20.

...belong in the Temple IMHO. What does it even mean?
 
 
Olulabelle
10:19 / 26.07.05
A hundred minutes Quantum? A hundred of your minutes? Or mine?

You are constricted by your mathematical brain trying to work things out and divide everything up into measurements of your own system, and seem not to be able to expand your thinking to accept that the day might be divisible by tens and hundreds if you throw your own measuring system away.

Again I say, that would be a day that was only seventeen hours long, or else we redefine a minute as a hundred seconds in which case it's (10x100x100= 100,000secs = 27.8 hours by the current antiquated time measurement system) a twenty eight hour day.

The day is divisble by anything we want. You are trying to measure the division of a section of a ten hour day by your system, suggesting it equates to some mathematically difficult number which is only relevant when you compare it with what a second is currently accepted to be.

I don't understand how on earth you think it is acceptable to suggest that having the freedom of mind to think about other ways of dividing a day is "muddy thinking". One could say that your inability to think in anything other than the mathematical conversion terms you appear to be doing is "concrete."

Just because someone one once said the day should be divided up into 24 doesn't mean it can't be divided up any other way. Does it?
 
  

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