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Football football. Football football.

 
  

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The Falcon
21:53 / 14.06.05
Yeah, so some of us like to talk about it, even though you with your arty clothes and mates might think it's well unreconstructed.

So - on with the football chat on a day when Robin van Persie was arrested on charges of rape, and Steve Finnan of vehicular homicide(?)

Jeezus.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:45 / 14.06.05
I'm going to be more interventionist than normal and ask everyone to make sure that they're putting in the effort with these very first threads, and actually propose an area for discussion. First impressions would suggest to me that this would be better placed in the Conversation unless someone can find a focus to it.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
23:54 / 14.06.05
I enjoy playing football with the kids at work, mostly because I do my best to make them take it less seriously and more like a bit of fun. I gave them all footballer nicknames once, and one of them was Forename "The Puppy" Surname, or there was Forename "Tornado Full Of Ants" Surname. Humourously enough, "Tornado Full Of Ants" loves his new nickname.

I think it's a dull sport to watch, however.
 
 
astrojax69
03:14 / 15.06.05
confederations cup starts tonight (well, tomorrow morning australia time!) go aussies, beat the germans. the english did, and we beat them...!

seriously, football is a wondrous enactment of the human desire to exhibit skill, athleticism and tactical nous all with a simple set of rules in a clearly defined space. this makes it a statement about the human condition, no? can other ball codes really espouse this of their game? if they do and they are right, why are they not more truly global??

i love football. i also love nietzsche, slow food, classic literature, brain science, discussing world affairs and swimming in the ocean. what does that make me?

but i suggest, taking tom's point, that we channel this thread into countering the popular arguments against football - not just sport in general - especially from a global perspective (australia has several other codes, and football - soccer - is a poor relative of them yet; i am sure americans have similar tales?) - and try to put on the devil's advocate hat to draw out the examples and counter arguments.

there is much consternation, in the press and the 'other codes', about the lack of goals, but i think that is its beauty. one goal can mean soooo much. so one error can mean so much and so on... this makes it a tactically precise game, especially at the lofty heights of the world cup, european championships, copa libertadores, etc... and it is beautiful to watch. i know many will groan, but the all italian, nil-all, champions league final a couple years ago was one of the most fantastic games of football i've seen.


and i have just written to fifa with a suggestion to end this foolery of penalty shoot-outs. who else hates them?? what are your suggestions? [show me yours and i'll show you mine...]


what say?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:51 / 15.06.05
Can you tell us why you care about such rich people you have never met. I REALLY want to know why people feel/think the way a given bunch of 22 boys and a few directors and managers behave can inform and shape their whole personalities. Can you tell us why?

Why do people care about rich musicians they have never met, or rich actors playing fictional characters they have never met? Or poor ones for that matter? Why do people feel/think the way a given bunch of electrical impulses represented on a screen as part of a computer game can inform and shape their lives (even for an hour or so)? Can anyone tell us why?

I would think that many of us, the whole team thing utterly eludes us in life (work, friends, whatever...) perhaps because we are natural outsiders or just simply losers.

I would think it's a good idea not to generalise too widely from one's own experience. I would think that to get this new forum off on the right foot, the people who don't see the appeal of football are going to have to learn to respect or at least ignore the threads about football, much as the people who really don't get LARPing are going to have to respect or at least ignore the threads about LARPing.
 
 
■
07:21 / 15.06.05
If they do and they are right, why are they not more truly global?

There was an interesting programme on Radio 4 the other week about just that. In the 19th century, when the rules became formalised, the FA was set up linking the upper class amateur game and the professional working-class game. It enshrined the idea that the professional game should support the amateur one. This, combined with the game was seen as morally improving (instilling the values that made the Empire great, that sort of thing), meant that it spread more easily than other sports.
In contrast, more modern games such as baseball and American football relied so strongly on the capitalist system to grow, with the professional wing being immediately successful and able to incorporate itself saw no need (and had no ability) to extend past national boundaries.
I suppose you could extend the same problem to rugby. One game (league) was traditionally working-class and professional, the other (union) amateur and middle/upper-class. Union did not get financial support from league and league did not get an amateur base to draw on for players.
 
 
The Falcon
10:28 / 15.06.05
Sorry Tom, I thought all purpose threads were cool, given they've always sufficed in Conversation. I'll try harder.
 
 
■
11:49 / 15.06.05
I think it was directed more at my (self-deleted) post - which didn't come across well - asking someone to try and explain football's lure to those of us who genuinely don't get it.
 
 
The Falcon
12:46 / 15.06.05
Anyway, for me, it's a kind've personal, familial thing. Supporting my team, Aberdeen, provides some ethereal bond between me and my dad. I mean, we can talk about books and things (music, to an extent) but not really have personal discussions - I've found this to be quite a commonality in, certainly, Scottish families.

External to that, though, it is incredibly democratising - people's game, jumpers for goalposts and all that, anyone (with legs) can play. You can't do that with all the other codes that have sprung from the original and best. You need a court for basketball. I loved seeing Senegal beat Sweden in '02, I love that Brazil are the best - though Roberto Carlos has suggested there'd've been a revolution there, were it not for the sport, and there's certainly debate as to whether that might not have been better for the country.

This is not to declare any great investment in individual footballers, who for me will always remain of secondary concern to the team, though it's been nice to see Frank Lampard's transition from serial roaster to a well-spoken, caring individual who dedicates Chelsea's championship to a cancer-stricken girl live on telly.
 
 
astrojax69
22:14 / 15.06.05
fusbol is a game of elegant rules. the ball is round, there is only one player who can, under strictures, handle the ball, otherwise all control has to be with the feet, the torso and the head. this is actually very difficult! i think once you have really tried, even in a quick kickabout in the park, to manipulate the football in this manner, then try to do it with a skilled and big defender trying very hard to get the ball off you, you understand the level of skill - add this to the macro view of the tactics of the game and you can start to understand the thrall in which it holds its spectators... the rules also encourage the players to compete for the ball and, because there is no stoppage for a tackle, like many of the other codes, there is a constant flow encouraged by this rule.

(fifa, the world governing body, is constantly adjusting the rules to make the game better - at this years confederations cup, there is a new interpretation to the offside rule that favours the attacking team: the free kick for offside is only given when the attacker actually touches ther ball - not just when s/he makes the run - so the free kick is further up the park for the attacking team, or play continues if there is in fact no play by that [offside] player. this is excellent!)

..then of course you have the cultural elements - it is truly a code that embraces all walks of life (although ticket prices to big events is out of consideration for truly poor people; s'lucky it tranlates well to tv!). you have tribalism and histories of rivalry (but the game is generally played in a truly warm spirit - witness the usa/iran game at '84) so adding the element of theatre i have discussed elsewhere in this forum.

of course, like any complex array of possibilities - chess, bridge, test cricket, classical music, etc - it can take some aquiring of the taste, but forego the termptation to see it just as a physical encounter between burly players (burly blokes, most commonly in the media - nice alliteration, but there are now significant numbers of female competitors) and try to witness the skill of the individual and the team tactics. good luck!

[oh, and go for crystal palace!]
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
01:00 / 16.06.05
Lovely post, astrojax.

Like many of the above posters here are a whole slew of reasons as to why I'm passionate about football.

There's a familial thing; my dad and most of his family ar football-mad, and I grew up seeing Match of The Day and hearing about West Bengal and Leeds United, my dad's two teams.

Which ties into it being:

-part of the comforting background noise of my childhood
-an inheritance from/connection to, along with many other things that interest me, of my immigrant Anglicised Bengali roots
-one of the only (as per Nick Hornby and Duncan, above) stable modes of communication between my dad and I, over the years, and further, a familial activity that my dad, bro-in-law and I can share.

This slides for me into a pull connected to gender thing, in that as father of two girls, my dad presumed he'd never have any company on the sofa on a Saturday night. He's delighted to be wrong!

As a bit of a poser I enjoy being surprising in being a female british asian football fan. Also it fitted the 'tomboyish' concerns that were a large part of my early attempts at self-definition. It plugged into me on a level that was connected subterraneously with 'not being a proper girl'/emulating&connecting with masculinity.

See also, in opposition to many of my male mates, the fact that we fought to play football at school rather than being forced, so playing and following football is about freedom.

Then there's something which turns off many non-football fans(in a way I find totally understandable but don't share): the tribalism. I love being part of a world-wide gang/set of narratives.

So there's being a fan, participating in a fandom, which is something many non-football fans do. There's belonging, as complex/negotiated as this belonging often is. There's a stability about my relationship to my team/football in general which is one of the most long-standing connections I have.

I love the excellence and artistry of the great players, having played football competitively I'm in awe of the skills on display. There's the potential for massively involving drama (and mind-numbing tedium, admittedly, but I am a Leeds fan)

I love that watching my teams plugs straight into me in a way that very few things do, provides me with a passion/obsession. The lows are awful, but as someone who floated through their A'levels after team won the Premership, I can tell you that the highs are amazing.

This is the main stuff, but there's also a subsidiary fascination with football as a grand narrative in many cultures, and the breadth of these cultures/the colonial legacy.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
01:08 / 16.06.05
I'm also very interested in the reasons for antipathy to football, as I suspect that, in the UK particularly, there's an element of class judgements factoring in.

Have watched matches in Kolkata and Florence.

In Kolkata you'll find it's very male, but one of the few arenas in which castes partake of the same entertainment. In Florence, the crowd seems to span gender, age and class. I've witnessed Chanel-Clad elegant ladies who lunch, yelling passionately at a last gasp Fiorentina winner.

In many countries where football is not so strongly associated with young working-class masculinity, football seems much more integrated: eg in both cities I've encountered 'barbelithian' type people who are football fans in great numbers.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
01:13 / 16.06.05
And further, as I think has been touched on before, that 'football fan' as a descriptor when utlised by detractors often functions as a defining character trait, closing down multiplicities and overriding other factors such as class, race, gender etc.

Erasing differences between fans of different genders, classes, regions, cultures, races, socio-economic status results in a caricature figure, with an often barely subtextual labelling of 'hooligan'.
 
 
■
11:53 / 16.06.05
This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for, thank you all. Will digest over the weekend, I think.
 
 
astrojax69
21:53 / 16.06.05
and just on my other point, confederations cup has started - hosts beat australia 4-3, but we wuz robbed! well, we played pretty well and roberth huth should have been dismissed for his challenge on aloisi, from which skoko scored our first from the free. he was booked, and was the last man, so isn't that a red? would have been a different match from there!

i see brazil walloped the greeks this morning (our time) and mexico did japan.

on the form we showed yesterday, australia will almost certainly be back in germany again next year. anyone else see this game?

and what other great games have you seen recently? do tell!
 
 
Benny the Ball
07:01 / 02.07.05
The confederations cup was a nice neat little competition actually, quite welcome in this barren period (especially as the gossip and transfers has been weak this year). The final was a spectacal of Brazil at it's best, Adriano's second goal was amazing, the build up supurb, Brazil probed, found nothing, kept the ball, passed back, made another probe and found the net. It seems to favour attacking minded teams though, as I got the impression that it isn't viewed as seriously, so defenders are holding back, not wanting to injure themselves or others, thus letting the attackers go and have some fun.
 
 
astrojax69
14:19 / 02.07.05
agree, benny - the final was a cracker for brasil's bare-faced attack-mindedness. a joy to watch these maestros in full flight. so, game to tip the world cup yet?

i'd have argentina among my favourites, nonetheless...
 
 
Fist Fun
15:56 / 10.07.05
I have invested so much time on to football that I can't help but enjoy it. I don't have any choice now.

When I am in some random country with different national sports I try and get in to them but it is never quite the same. I probably feel the same way about ice hockey as many haters do about football. I just don't get it, don't see why it is fun.
 
 
Ganesh
15:15 / 11.07.05
This has developed into an interesting thread. Football has always left me utterly cold, but I'm aware that this is more to do with me than anything inherently dull in the game itself, and I'm interested in why it presses so many buttons for some people while passing others by. GGM's posts, in particular, struck a few chords:

There's a familial thing; my dad and most of his family ar football-mad, and I grew up seeing Match of The Day and hearing about West Bengal and Leeds United, my dad's two teams.

Which ties into it being:

-part of the comforting background noise of my childhood
-an inheritance from/connection to, along with many other things that interest me, of my immigrant Anglicised Bengali roots
-one of the only (as per Nick Hornby and Duncan, above) stable modes of communication between my dad and I, over the years, and further, a familial activity that my dad, bro-in-law and I can share.

This slides for me into a pull connected to gender thing, in that as father of two girls, my dad presumed he'd never have any company on the sofa on a Saturday night. He's delighted to be wrong!

As a bit of a poser I enjoy being surprising in being a female british asian football fan. Also it fitted the 'tomboyish' concerns that were a large part of my early attempts at self-definition. It plugged into me on a level that was connected subterraneously with 'not being a proper girl'/emulating&connecting with masculinity.


My experience is perhaps the flipside of this. My father was also passionately into football - watching it and playing it. He came from a working class Scottish family and won a sports scholarship to a fairly prestigious private school, at which he was thoroughly miserable, so I guess it played a pivotal role in his life - and he expected his only son to be as keen on the game as he was.

I wasn't. Ever.

I'm not sure why I was unable to summon up even the slightest bit of enthusiasm for kicking a ball about, or watching other people kick a ball about. God knows it wasn't a rebellious thing: as a pre-teen, I really tried to learn the rules, develop the skills, conquer my instinct to run away from the shouty people and the muddy missile hurtling in my direction (I had glasses, and was always terrified of the ball hitting me in the face - which did happen a couple of times). My father tried too, taking me for a 'kick-about' in the park (until my mother eventually pointed out to him that I was hating it), taking me to see Aberdeen play (weird mixture of deadening boredom, feeling cowed by scary bellowy blokes and doing my my best to conceal my yawning) and organising a football-themed eighth birthday party (I got distracted by wanting to pick daisies).

I've heard the same story from so many gay men that it's difficult to imagine this inability to 'get' football isn't related in some way to male homosexuality - or, at least, a subset thereof. As with some other gay men, eventually I stopped trying and began making a geekily snobbish virtue of my inability to enjoy (or even understand the enjoyment of others in) the beautiful game. Entering the stroppy zithell of adolescence, my inability (perceived as refusal) to persevere with playing football became a hard little kernel, around which a more general resentful non-communication accreted. My father was horribly disappointed, for many years, in his effeminate, 'non-physical' son who wouldn't even have a go, and even now I associate football (and, to a lesser extent, most other sports, especially team sports) with crushing shame.

So... family, class and gender. Whereas football was an avenue of comfort, familial communication and expression of gender difference for you, for me it was the exact opposite. I'd say my early experiences poisoned the game for me, but I'm not sure I'd 'ever' have got it. The fact that, as a boy in the 1970s, I was absolutely expected to 'get' it made me hate it.
 
 
Ganesh
15:39 / 11.07.05
I'm also very interested in the reasons for antipathy to football, as I suspect that, in the UK particularly, there's an element of class judgements factoring in.

Yeah, but, generalising from my own experience of football, I wonder whether other factors underpin those class judgements. In my case, I was acutely aware of being other than my father in ways I couldn't articulate, but which made me feel unhappy and ashamed. Much of this was probably related to the ol' gay gene (cue the usual round of "but I'm gay and I love football"/"yeah, but you just like looking at cocks in shorts" nature vs nurture squabbling) but some of it, I think, reflected the fact that I was being very consciously brought up as middle-class (much of it down to my class-conscious/aspiring mother) and my father was highly ambivalent about this.

I was very aware that football was something ordinary boys did; the sort of boys who (to my mind, anyway) existed entirely unself-consciously, didn't shrink from rough-and-tumble, interacted with their peers effortlessly. The sort of semi-mythical ordinary boys Morrissey writes about, and many, many gay men fetishise. The sort of ordinary boy my father would've liked me to be, and, for many years, I'd tried and failed to become.

So... when you say football is rife with class judgements, I think you're right, but it's not simply a Burchillian model of the snooty middle classes being dismissive of the salt-of-the-earth working classes. I know that, particularly among gay men, there are others like me, for whom football signifies a (failed) childhood attempt to be ordinary in terms of acceptable heterosexual masculinity (and, in my case, class), pleasing our fathers and fitting in with our peers. Perhaps the fact that football touches these hot triggers of shame, failure and self-loathing is one element of the considerable antipathy some hold toward the game?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:05 / 11.07.05
I suspect that in the UK particularly, there's an element of class judgements factoring in

I would say not. Whatever it used to be like, the idea that football is now a 'working class' sport (whatever that means these days anyway) seems a bit ridiculous, given the price of a ticket to a premier league game, and of the strips in the gift shop ( they love their fans, these people, oh yes they do, they love them... where it hurts, I suppose, and as often as possible,) and, in particular, of a half-decent seat somewhere high up in the corp ents lounge.

And then there's Nick 'fucking' Hornby, Chris 'shitting' Evans, and most of the people who worked at Loaded magazine in the early to mid-Nineties. They're pretty marginal nowadays, but it wouldn't be too hard to argue that football's current wrist-slitting ubiquity (not popularity necessarily, I wouldn't honestly know, but it's easier to ignore the royal family at the moment than is to try and blank out say D**** B******,) had a lot to do with a bunch of overwhelmingly middle class (overgrown) boys still a bit troubled, well into their Twenties, by the fact that they always got picked last in the kickabouts at school.

For a while back there it seemed a fairly dead issue, football, it was the province of 'yobs.' After the events that lead to English teams being banned from Europe, it was a bit in the doldrums, until it started to feature in the 'Lad's revival,' which seemed to be a media event well before the money statrted rolling in. So the fact that you can hardly leave the house these days without some character asking you what you thought about 'the match' would appear to be very much a bourgeois invention.

And at least Live Action Role-Players keep themselves to themselves.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:05 / 12.07.05
Fascinating stuff.

Nesh: can well imagine how your scenario would work. There seem to be two strands to your account.

There's one that is very homo-specific, around being made to participate one of the only public environments in which men get physical, but within rigidly proscribed limits

(What comes to mind is Barbara Kruger's piece, You Construct Intricate Rituals Which Allow You To Touch The Skin Of other Men (halfway down page). I've always thought that if Kruger were British, that image would be of footballers after a goal has been scored)

And, as you say, the tensions of being 'one of the lads/part of the gang but knowing/feeling that you never can be, trying to hide *or* flaunt your difference.

This connects to the other, a 'compulsory masculinity' that football often stands for in the UK (and Duncan appears appears to suggest above that this is more intense in Scotland) which is a very specific one in which one's own sexuality regardless, one is usually labelled a 'poof' if one doesn't participate.

It's a model that is repugant to many male-identified folk(most of the men I know, for example loathe football for this very reason), and even more so in its compulsory nature.

I'm very aware that I come to football in a way that is freeing and allows me to play with identity in a way that would be very difficult for someone born/raised male.

I don't feel pressured by the need to 'prove' my masculinity according to that model, and in the flipside to your account, I did, when I was pretty young *want* to be that model of masculinity, as it seemed to involve many things that I (growing up female-identifying in a quiet, relatively bookish middle-class english/bengali environment) wanted, and aped.

I don't, obviously aspire to that masculinity now, nor do I feel that if I don't really identify with 'female' as a self-id, then I must id with 'male' instead. But for me, it was a way into playing with alternate identities.

(also, we ladies weren't allowed to play football at school, and shouted/campaigned vociferously about this. I suspect that this gave me a whole other set of associations with football, entirely antithetical to yours, and that football wouldn't be nearly as symbolic to me now if this wasn't the case.)

Alex, interesting on the class thing. I still have a hunch that it's alot more complicated that that. Having a think about it.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:28 / 12.07.05
Okay, I think you're both correct in saying the class issue is alot more complicated that I suggested (Burchillian? I'll have you for that, nesh) but I think it's an interesting question as to what football does stand for in the Great British Class System.

I don't think it's a simple thing. One of the things that fascinates me about the context of football is that I think it's an enormous/mutable symbol for both lovers and haters.

Alex, if you look at the fans talking here, many of them are talking about a fandom they've had since childhood, something that's way outside of the Loaded/new lad thing.

Football may have become ubiquitous in circles that would have previously regarded is as 'for the plebs', but we're hearing accounts here of football as a part (a compulsory part, for men, it would seem) of our formations and roots.

It can, I suspect, be made to stand for many things.

Nesh talks about it standing for 'ordinariness'. For me, it stands for the opposite. Most of the accounts reference it as a means (successful or not) of communication between fathers and children.

Any mothers in the equation? So far it seems to be a father child dynamic, whether that's father<>willing son, father<>unwilling son, father<>forcing-her-way-in-daughter.... the fourth, father<>unwilling daughter doesn't seem to have popped up either, the compuslory masculinity thing again.

To go back to Hornby for a second, in Fever Pitch he notes that football was something he and his father shared, but his sister was left out of, and speculates that this may be a signifcant factor in their not having found a means to communicate/connect post-divorce.

I suspect, for example, that if my father and I had connected generally, that football would be less significant. As it is, it's been the only stable band for connection, and as such is something very valuable to me.

Especially, now I come to think of it, for all the years it was just me and him, muddling along together.

Rereading 'nesh's lovely posts, it strikes me that I can his descrptions of feelings of shame and guilt chime for me, (at a similar time) but that they revolved around other things for me (academic achievement, primarily)

We probably are almost diametrically opposed, in that football was somewhere where I did 'succeed', in a weird and totally unexpected (to me and my dad) way. It was *so* outside of the pressures of what I was meant to be, I could just enjoy it and connect with my dad.

Yeesh. Do you charge for this sort of thing, nesh?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:31 / 12.07.05
oh, scottish people, any ideas on why this whole bag is intensified in Scotland(I've heard other friends say this), I find this very interesting...
 
 
Ganesh
11:47 / 12.07.05
Lack of cricket?
 
 
Tunnels
17:36 / 12.07.05
Can't talk about Scotland, but let me tell you that down here, in Argentina, things are quite similar; at least in my case.

I'm a huge fan of Boca Juniors; some of you might heard about it, some of you maybe haven't. It's one of the three football teams that Maradona played for in my/his country, and the one that's instantly associated with his figure.

The thing is, my story is quite the same as Hornby's: mum and dad get divorced, dad leaves home, Boca becomes our new "home".

My relationship with my team has been both of love and hate. You see, Boca is the most important team in the country, with fans rooting for it everywhere except in my town. I'm from a city that's always felt quite envious of Buenos Aires (capital city of Argentina) and football is just only another way to channel that envy. Which results in having two very popular local teams that concentrate the vast majority of the people here, and almost no one left to root for any other team. Consequence: during most of my Iife, me and my dad were the only fans of Boca I knew.

So, even though I had plenty of friends who I loved dearly (still do), I never bonded with them through football; even more, I lacked that bond that they had between them. And there's the first reason why I hated Boca: it made it harder for me to "belong". I suppose I could have switched my team for one of the locals and avoid the alienation, but what kind of a fan would I have been if I did something like that? It never ceases to amaze me how strong the committment between a fan and his/her team can be...

The other reason why I hated Boca: not only I was alone in my love for it, but also, during most of my teen years, our teams were comprised of such a terrible bunch of losers and mercenaries...for years we were the laughing stock of the country. These years also include an ill-fated return of Maradona, which ended in a not-that-surprising doping scandal.

I remember how much I dreaded mondays and the first hour at school, because I was surely going to be the blank of the jokes of every one of my mates.

Then I started college, my dad got terminally ill and once again, Boca was source a relief for the both of us. Because those were the years when, leaded by coach Carlos Bianchi, the team started to pay for all those years of unrewarded devotion that I had go to get through before. By the end of my first college year they had given us a league, the year after they won another one, and year 2000 was our annus mirabilis: a Libertadores Cup (south-american equivalent of the Champions League) and an Intercontinental Cup won in a final match against Real Madrid. And all the while, my dad was fighting the illness and getting better and better each time, so it's hard for me not to stand in gratitude with Boca, which at one time became the only source of good news for us.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:26 / 13.07.05
That's fascinating stuff, Master Chef.

And this:

And there's the first reason why I hated Boca: it made it harder for me to "belong". I suppose I could have switched my team for one of the locals and avoid the alienation, but what kind of a fan would I have been if I did something like that? It never ceases to amaze me how strong the committment between a fan and his/her team can be...

Is something I can totally relate to. I'm a Leeds United fan.

Because my dad was when we were first sharing football. This having lived there. Leeds is a city in the North of England that at the time and subsequently, was home to both vast Asian populations and much NF(neo-nazi) activity.

He 'switched' to Man U when they became more successful, and it's a thing I have no respect for(which parallels other things about him that I don't like).

So, growing up in the south of England, there were fans of all the London and Southern teams, fans of Man U(as I'm sure you know, they're bloody everywhere ) and me, the Asian, female, and only Leeds fan.

So my bond with Leeds is, much like yours with Boca, a very mixed blessing. Both the team and their fans have a reputation for racism which is in part, heartily deserved (and of course, in part, not. These things, as your example points out, are rarely simple.)

There are times when I've come very close to giving up my team in disgust at racist behaviour from players, but something, that weird commitment you describe has kept me with them.

I have less time for the argument that as they have had, and continue to have a sizeable racist fanbase, I should steer clear. There are many born and bred Leeds Asians who agree with me on the fact that to forswear the club for those reasons would be to play into the hands of that racism, and to confirm their bollocks opinion that we have less right to be there than them.

(Having said that, mainly due to being down here, it's been a long time since I saw them at home. However, when I was going regularly, though at times it *was* scary, I was determined not to be pushed out. And, experienced much love/care from local white fans who agreed with me.)

And, like you, after a childhood of doom/isolation, in 1991-92, they won the Premiership and the wait was utterly worthwhile. (at a time when my life was pretty messy/disintegrating in lots of other ways, that win gave me something powerful of my own)

But my relationship with them is definitely a love/hate thing.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:35 / 13.07.05
And yeah, I've heard of Boca Juniors, and only for the Maradona connection/doping scandal, as you suggest above. Can well imagine that's not exactly the way your want your team to be identified all over the world.
 
 
astrojax69
22:09 / 13.07.05
i visited la bombonera and was only greatly disapppointed in it not being during the season! bought a riquelme shirt; it was the year before he went to spain and he was the new maradona. fabulous! i still wear it and get comments, even in australia. many people here know boca.

funny thing, you and meme discuss, club loyalty. my maternal grandfather was a crystal palace supporter, so from about four or five, when i started playing 'soccer' here, my team was always palace. and always has been... i now have a very soft spot for chelski, as i greatly admire ambromovich's idea: i have a lot of money, i know, i'll buy a big football team and win everything... s'what i'd wanna do with too many billions! and of course liverpool have had craig johnston and harry cool and, as an aussie, i have had a soft spot for them (and leeds, too meme! go big dukes!) but never have i been able to shake off the loyalty built up of years of anguish and heartache for the pursuit of glitz and the dollar.

is that what we mean by working class roots, really? that allegiance through struggle, that even the elite in society might sometimes identify with? (in australia, we have aussie rules and i am also a hardened geelong fan - was a foetus when we last won the flag and at the rate we're going, may be a corpse before it happens again!! bloody hard life being a cats fan; and a palace fan to boot!! poor me....)

do you choose your football team, or does life choose it for you? is there something stronger when it is the latter than when people jump on the man u, or real madrid, etc bandwagon and claim it as their own?
 
 
Tunnels
04:01 / 14.07.05
And yeah, I've heard of Boca Juniors, and only for the Maradona connection/doping scandal, as you suggest above. Can well imagine that's not exactly the way your want your team to be identified all over the world.

Thankfully, Astrojax seems to know there is more to Boca than doping scandals!!!

But...well, there are a lot of things that seem unclear in Boca, with or without Maradona. The chairman is not the cleanest one out there, and now he's venturing into politics with a party so much right-winged that he could put George W. to shame; which is weird if you think that Boca has always been a working-class kind of thinkg; as Astrojax will probably attest, la Bombonera (our stadium) is located in a really, really poor neighbourhood. Anyway, this chairman, and not Maradona, is the main reason why I sometimes feel ashamed. The saddest thing is that people here love him because of the 10 championships won in the last 7 years.

i visited la bombonera and was only greatly disapppointed in it not being during the season! bought a riquelme shirt; it was the year before he went to spain and he was the new maradona. fabulous! i still wear it and get comments, even in australia. many people here know boca.

Well, you got there right on time, it was the end of the first Bianchi era. Riquelme has to be the greatest player I've ever seen on our team; I got to see Maradona, but he was a shadow of his former self. But Riquelme, we caught him in his prime. He still is widely beloved and respected, though his playing has always been very different from Maradona and most of the brazilian players; he has
never been a fast runner, but that's because he's more into watching the game and thinking before playing the ball.

He 'switched' to Man U when they became more successful, and it's a thing I have no respect for(which parallels other things about him that I don't like).

Now this is really weird, because when you stop and think about it, it shouldn't be such a big deal; I mean, it's not that you are hurting anyone by switching your team for another. But I have always thought that if someone is able to do something like that and go on with his/her life just like that, then ¿is there any kind of treason he/she ain't capable of committing?

" and a palace fan to boot!! poor me...."

Let me tell you something, "Crystal Palace" has to be the weirdest name for a football team ever. And not in a bad way. It sounds like the name Jim Henson would have given to one of his movies in the eighties, a bit like Labyrinth.

"But my relationship with them is definitely a love/hate thing."

I suppose most of us have that kind of relationship with our teams. And that's what makes the good times feel like such a reward; I wouldn't have felt so grateful for having kept my faith if I had never questioned it.

Now I feel that last paragraph sounds so serious it's almost creepy...but do you know what might be even creepier? The fact that maybe I AM being serious. Thankfully, I'm not completely sure yet
 
 
astrojax69
05:21 / 14.07.05
walked into the area around la bombonera with a twin lens camera round my neck (am a photographer, of sorts) with my family, and a woman walked towards me, glared in shock at the camera, looked up pleadingly into my eyes and looked around her and then gestured as if lost, shaking her head slowly...

i took the camera off and put it in my bag, but honestly, we met up with some kids in the street who showed us to the stadium, had a bit of a street kick with them and they enjoyed us - i didn't feel unsafe at all, though of course i had heard the rumours. admittedly, it was middle of the afternoon, quiet, but i felt fine.

great stadium, great trophies. great city!
 
 
nedrichards is confused
20:52 / 24.08.05
Does the revelation that Frank Lampard has named his newborn child Luna lead you to think more or less of him. Alternately how likely is what I'm going to call the 'Harry Potter Hypothesis' of the naming?
 
 
astrojax69
23:58 / 24.08.05
he did bang in two against wba and thrust his team to the top of the table once again - and we've only had three games!!

luna... hmm, better than heavenly hirani tiger lily. so, to answer your question, neither more nor less. frank zappa has 'moon unit', at least luna is a little more poetic. i wonder if frank zappa woulda been a flashy midfielder if he'd chosen football over weasels and guitars... both called frank; coincincidence?? does franky lampard play guitar?
 
 
astrojax69
03:15 / 27.09.05
this from an australian columnist on theworldgame who raised some salient points about the state of sth american football, especially the cult of the individual in this vast talent pool, driven by everyone looking to get out of the mire...


And if Australia is looking to emulate Brazil on the football field it might be well advised to carry out a three-pronged approach; greatly increase the population, do away with other sports and introduce mass poverty with its consequent social problems. I doubt that it is a course of action that many Australians would be willing to adopt.


so i wondered, in what other ways is football a barometer of the community in which it thrives (or doesn't...) what is it about the prosperity-driven culture of the usa that sees football so widely played but so little cared about?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:55 / 27.09.05
At the risk of being obvious, football is widely played in the US because it is safer than gridiron, so protective parents get their kids to play it instead. So it becomes a middle-class sport with no grassroots fanbase. On the other hand, you have a lot of people in the US who do care passionately about football, but might keep their allegiance to clubs from outside the States, and whose kids might want to play for Mexico, say, and be outside the collegiate structure where US athletes are often chosen. Which does create an odd situation - I do find the way that US footballers in Britain (Casey Keller, Brad Friedel, Brian McBride) tend to be quite culturally distinct from their Brit counterparts.

Can anyone in the US give a closer account of US football? The near-mythical MLS? The whole Camp America/Team America thing? The sparkly talent of Freddy Adu?

As for Australia - well, it's already getting along that road by having ethnic minority communities who are passionate about football (and economically discriminated against, at least in the past), which has so far created footballing talents like Stan Lazaridis, John Aloisi and Mark Viduka. Again, anyone got a more recent picture?
 
  

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