BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


In Our Time's "Greatest Philosopher Vote"

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Tom Coates
12:05 / 22.05.05
In what can only be described as some kind of intellectual version of Celebrity Wrestling, Radio 4's In Our Time is running a Greatest Philosopher Vote, for members of the public to say who they find most inspiring, interesting or appealing. Note - there's no mention of "correct" or "significant" in that bundle, but hey.

Anyway, I thought I'd propose two things - firstly that everyone go and vote, because frankly there are a lot of smart people in here and I don't see why we shouldn't be leading the way with this one. And secondly, I thought maybe people might like to take up the mission of declaring their philospher of choice right here on our board and to tell us why they're so keen on 'em. Sound interesting?
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
13:57 / 22.05.05
Seems I'm the first. Oh, well..
My choice would be ol' Michel Foucault. Maybe it's because he's the guy that I read the most, but I think his methods and theories (or toolboxes, as he prefers to call them) are increasingly relevant nowadays. His notion of power and knowledge, and the relationship between those concepts completely changed what was at the time the "mainstream" line of thought.
Also, he did have a way with words...

Runner ups: Gilles Deleuze and Heraclitus
 
 
Bruno
19:07 / 22.05.05
The fans riot in the streets, setting fire to their own cars, chanting "SCHO PEN HAUER, SCHO PEN HAUER, fuck them in the ass" after Schopenhauer claws Wittgenstein's eyes out while simultaneously stamping Spinoza's groin with his Nikes (Nike is proud to be the official footgear of Schopenhauer). Schopenhauer is driven by his relentless ambition to be the 'Philosopher of the Millenium'(tm), he must dominate, no matter the cost. He is the alpha-male. He is the eye on the top of the pyramid, the Grand Master in the philosophical hierarchy. Despite complaints by his detractors, a statistical analysis has also proved that, objectively speaking, Schopenhauer is the best philosopher. He has rated 99.89% on the Official Philosopher Scale (just behind God at 100%). In addition, his marketing team has succeeded in convincing the majority of voters that voting for him is to their advantage. Well done Schopenhauer, you have earned it with all the unpaid overtime you have given so selflessly.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:49 / 22.05.05
Kant. I really love his moral philoophy, I love the introduction of god into the theory, an introduction that comes in almost like a footnote to let the whole thing down. I find Kant endearing, rational until faith appears, he makes me bang my head against the wall in frustration and cheer at the same time. He attempts to reason out the unexplainable, then the reasoning gets stretched too far. A perfect philosopher. Kant makes me love philosophy even though the language is indecipherable.
 
 
astrojax69
22:05 / 22.05.05
bloody tough question, if indeed it is a well asked question at all, as some philosophies might argue (not by you though, tom!) many philosophers have sought to investigate different aspects of what it is to be human. from fundamental 'what is it all about?' and how everything came to be here, which led to sciences we have today, to meta-questions on how we have philosophised before, to logic and methodologies of investigation from analytic premises. from the infinite to the atomic to the hypothetical to the metaphysical to the ethical to the logical...

how do you really begin to compare plato with kant with hobbes with foucault with russell with singer? and where do you fit in buddhist and moslem and christian and chinese philosophers?

that said, the answer is easy: douglas adams!

ha ha, just an aside... i'd probably plump for kant or spinoza, though buddha gets close. and of course aristotle.

do we go with pure influence? or should we get specific and go with the greatest minds, even if they have been less than impressive in their sphere of influence?

do we stick to fundamental obvious philosophers, or do we look at dante, coleridge, joyce and other great literary figures who were as much philosopher as writer?

will have to give it some thought - go home and look at my bokshelf and ponder..!
 
 
Bruno
23:52 / 22.05.05
Nina hmm well I have my reservations about Kant because: by taking into account the socio-religious elements to which his ethical philosophy lends itself, one arrives at the very paradox which Kant himself sought to avoid: that is, how to resolve a. the potentialities inherent within 'a priori' knowledge as a process (as opposed to a static or motionless state) with b. the stylistic and aesthetic judgements to which 'a posteriori' knowledge lends itself. (Bear with me now.) By failing to address the noumenal aspects of his ethos, so to speak, he remained a prisoner of an epistemology which falters in the face of deeper scrutiny, since the brunt of the metaphorical blow is thrusted by the hand of chance, which hand he had already rejected in the critique of pure reason, although he still relies upon it as a conceptual tool, albeit an implied one.

I am not sure if I am really making myself clear here. Really what I am trying to say is no! Kant is bad! Schopenhauer is good! Finish him Schopenhauer! Appease the crowd! Just do it Schopenhauer, Win win win! Schopenhauer wins! You lose!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:03 / 23.05.05
Ah see, that's precisely why I opt for Kant because I love the problems that come from his philosophy as well as the solutions.
 
 
Bruno
00:13 / 23.05.05
Ah see, that's precisely why I opt for Kant because I love the problems that come from his philosophy as well as the solutions.

Nina I think you missed my final point. Kant is very bad. Schopenhauer is very very good. Schopenhauer wins!
 
 
astrojax69
03:08 / 23.05.05
i thought nietzsche trumped shoppy with his 'will to power', his ubermensch manifesting the dominance of the furtherance of our species.

god is dead. so is schopenhauer. nietzsche can never die!

niet-zsche, niet-zsche, uber-mensch!
niet-zsche, niet-zsche, uber-mensch!
niet-zsche, niet-zsche, uber-mensch!
 
 
lord henry strikes back
08:48 / 23.05.05
astrojax, thank you. I was getting worried that I'd be alone on this. Nietzsche is the single greatest thinker of all time. To start with, he is the father of postmodernism. Without Nietzsche there would have been no Foucault, no Derridar, no Lyotard. Also, the Genealogy of Morals is a fantastic rethinking of human history. Whether or not you agree with his points, you cannot help but rethink your moral standpoint.

He also has a lovely writing style.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:14 / 23.05.05
I'd go for Nietzsche. Primarily for the writing style, it has to be said... whether one buys into his philosophies or not, he certainly makes it all beautifully tempting. There's an epic quality there which really does make you feel he's giving the Big Ideas the respect they need, rather than just earnest analysis. I mean, come on! This is the very nature of existence we're discussing here! It's GOT to be spectacular.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
13:27 / 23.05.05
Foucault. Whenever someone says to me "what good is philosophy, you egghead?" I had them a copy of The Subject and Power.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:10 / 23.05.05
'argue your case' he said...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:11 / 23.05.05
Nietzsche! Per-lease. Screw the uber-mensch and all that hierachical, imperialist nonsense. Nietzsche was disturbed, not great. All hail Kant.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
15:42 / 23.05.05
I'm for Spinoza. Without Spinoza, no Nietszche. Or Foucault. Or Deleuze. The opbverse of this choice might be Hobbes, but who would pick Hobbes?
 
 
astrojax69
23:35 / 23.05.05
hobbes is nasty, brutish and short (and i think there is another one, but my memory is shot) - but an interesting choice. thomas aquinas would be another interesting one, no?

without spinoza there is no nietzsche, yes, but without plato and aristotle there is no spinoza, etc... we all stand on the shoulders of giants, but that needn't demean our own stature. actually, spinoza was pretty tall!

no-one seems to have mentioned socrates yet?

and i haven't even said that 'french philosopher' is an oxymoron; isn't that restrained of me!

as for current philosophers, i would plumb for peter singer as the most influential, though i rather dig dan dennett. had him to dinner once! anyone else got any choices for current thinking dudes/dudettes?
 
 
JOY NO WRY
07:56 / 24.05.05
In terms of the 'greatest' philosopher Plato/Socrates (I don't see much point in differentiating) was going get my vote. I know he's a little rough compared to some of the more contemporary philosophers, and he's certainly out of fashion, but he covered just about every aspect of the philisophical spectrum with his work; ethics, politics, metaphysics and even etymology. A complete philosophy is hard to come by, and as the first seriously logical philosopher we know of he's an obvious choice.

However, I just re-read the question, and if I honestly have to choose which philosopher I find most interesting/inspiring it has to be either Nietzsche or JS Mill. I know they're pretty much polar opposites, at least in the places that they deal with the same subjects, but I pretty much always find myself agreeing with one or the other of them. It depends on how much sleep I've had. And which day of the week it is. And the position of the moon.
 
 
alas
13:40 / 24.05.05
I like the Buddha as an option, but I'm pretty sure the IN OUR TIME poll excludes all "religious" figures--probably so we don't get the W response, i.e., "The only philosopher I need is Jesus Christ. I don' need none of your 'fool'osophy." (Evangelicals here love to speak of 'foolosophy' and 'evil-lution.' So charming they are. <--Hey, do you think Yoda counts?)

Hmmm. All this of course reminds me that there are so few women who are regarded as "philosophers." We have Simone de Beauvoir, of course, or, say, Judith Butler? but even I don't quite class them with, ummm, Nietzsche or Foucault, one of whom at the moment would probably get my vote. The most powerful _recent_ philosophical _movement_ has been feminism, arguably. But I sense that, as with other political movements with philosophical implications, the power of its ideas resides in the collective, not the individual, so maybe it's good that I can't think of a single individual feminist thinker who I believe is the "greatest" philosopher.
 
 
Morpheus
17:57 / 24.05.05
The greeks Plato/soccorteese/airistwattle most likely have it for one reason only and that is the stuff will still make you laugh and cry, and wonder why. Old is good, new is strange and troublesome. I really like the philosophers who didn't spend their lives classified as such. All that time thinking will make a mind dull.
Cheng Man-ch'ing was down with the Tao and he is my own favorite. George Bataille makes me hot and wanting more. What about astrology as philosophy? Or music for that matter. Ian C. is a prophet. Listen to his prophecy.
Love will tear us apart.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:16 / 24.05.05
Simone de Beauvoir never published any books on a purely philosophical subject though she was involved in the existential movement, so she's regarded as more of an author than a philosopher. Butler is really a cultural theorist rather than a philosopher. How about Kristeva?
 
 
astrojax69
22:10 / 24.05.05
patricia churchland is considered pre-eminent among modern philosophers, and is female.

it would be interesting to see if the competition organisers thought buddhism is a religion. it does not espouse a supreme being, just an ethic, a prescription of how to live. or does reincarnation count as too spooky, mebbe? i bet they let descartes in, and he thinks mind is spooky stuff!
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:57 / 25.05.05
Judith Butler actually wrote an essay on why people are always saying, 'You don't do philosophy!!" Why is JB a cultural theorist rather than a philosopher, Nina? And as for Simone de B, didn't she contribute large uncredited slabs of thought (if not actual writing) to pretty much everything Sartre wrote? Surely in that case she qualifies as a philosopher...

(I'm getting a bit devil's advocatey here, cuz I don't think it matters much whether you canll X a philosopher or not; but all the same, female theorists do tend to get marked down as 'not-philosophers' rather often.)

Also, I've had dinner with Peter Singer, rather more times than once, and there's no way he's as influential as someone like, for instance, Foucault. Or Freud. Or Lacan. Or Agamben. Or Derrida.
 
 
astrojax69
03:18 / 25.05.05
...nor as dead!

was the point
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:42 / 25.05.05
She didn't publish it under her name, so how do we know what's hers? How can someone be the greatest philosopher if we don't know what their work is?

And Judith Butler- when I look for her books I find them in the wrong area of the shop. Personally I can't distinguish between a CT and a philosopher... though I'd suspect her books are too referential and not in the- slam example down, rip it apart, damn I'm right- mode of so many but in a rather meandering way. Sorry, I can't stand Butler, I find her lacking in foundation for her arguments. The truth is I don't want her to be a philosopher, and I'm worried that I don't want Zizek anymore either (who gave a terrible talk at the ICA last week). They're both going to hell for giving a terrible base for their arguments. You have to get the basics down first Judith, you can't start in the middle. Philosophers write working theories that coincide with things that happen normally, Judith doesn't, she writes theories that she doesn't support.

*tears hair out, looks a little mad*

That's why I love Kant. His foundation's firm, his 'oh crap, what a huge tear' moment is an aftersight to his theory. Someone's had to be.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:57 / 26.05.05
"Philosophers write working theories that coincide with things that happen normally."

See, I guess I have a little problem with that word 'normally'. What's normal? How can 'normal' be normative, now, when radical difference is so institutionalised?

I take your point about Judith Butler, although I think sometimes the beauty of her writing *is* that she doesn't base her claims in a truth or stability... sometimes starting in the middle is lovely, if confusing. It's not that I want her to count as a philosopher, but I'm interested in what the boundaries of philosophy are: what counts and what doesn't, and why?

Simone, however, I have to argue with: she bloody deserves to be known as a philosopher. Lots of her essays are on existentialism. And the work does exist, it's just not immediately accessible: her diaries and hers/Sartres papers indicate that she contributed substantially to Sartre's credited work. And how can anyone think that the person who comes up with "One is not born, one is made, a woman" -- possibly the most gut-wrenching and rule-breaking thought of the 20th century -- isn't a philosopher?

(Okay, this is getting off topic, sorry.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:11 / 26.05.05
What's normal? How can 'normal' be normative,

Well I really meant on average.

And it's okay, I'm madly in love with Simone as well but she made the decision to publish her work, credited under Sartre's name, which was the wrong decision. That doesn't make her stupid, just means she couldn't predict the future.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:31 / 29.05.05
Damnit. I was going to say Jacques Derrida but now I'm going to have to go for Judith Butler, aren't I? Just to protect her against the ravening hordes? But I don't think she is my favourite philosopher (just my favourite theorist of gender/sexuality/kinship), so I won't. I'll stick with Derrida, because he enables some very good theories of gender (even though Avital Ronell, Drucilla Cornell, Judith Butler et al. do a better job of elaborating those theories) but he does so as part of a wider project.

Anyway. Why Derrida? Hmm. Because there are very few writers who can make me breathless with pleasure in language and with the pleasurable sense of new interfaces opening up between me and the world, the world tilting on its axis. Because it's in his thought that I begin to understand the relationship between pleasure in language and the tilting of the world on its axis. Because he worked out a method of philosophizing that was so much more concrete and followable than anything I'd come across before, in its insistence on the level of the signifier (which is, after all, all we've got: no point telling me that, although Dan Brown's work looks like nonsense, it means something very profound: how does it mean it?). Because all of that pleasure and concreteness is so bound up with a political and ethical imperative not to let power and its names have control of the meanings we circulate and the meanings we experience, and not to bind the Other into our systems of recognizability. And because, like the best writers, he so often says things which resonate in a way that I instantly recognize as true, but in a form which is so concise and accurate and stunning that it re-organizes the way I think about its truth.

Also: beautiful, personable, funny and warm as a speaker, and deeply genderfucked in his writing. So, actually, I don't have to feel bad about not nominating a woman, given how often he said he was a woman (and what would it mean to insist that he wasn't? Whose investment in binary systems and in consistency of identity would be enforcing that statement?)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:40 / 30.05.05
I confess I am a little dubious about nominating Derrida, not because I dislike him as a philosopher but because of the proposal itself. Actually I rather threw him out of the running because he's such a recent philosopher, I suppose I did the same for a whole host of others as well, and I think that 'greatest' suggests that we should consider the influence of our nominees. Now I wouldn't count Derrida as a philosopher who hasn't influenced the work of others in any way but we don't know how long his work will resound, how far that influence will really stretch (I know he's done pretty well already).

Actually in hindsight I wish I'd gone for Hegel but then he was influenced by Kant so perhaps not... oh, it's all too much for me.

(I wouldn't call myself a ravening horde... more a disappointed idealist. It's just if she could dig her foundations a little deeper she would be a favourite. Oh if you could see me sitting in the park crying aloud 'oh Judith, not again!')
 
 
Cat Chant
09:25 / 30.05.05
for members of the public to say who they find most inspiring, interesting or appealing. Note - there's no mention of "correct" or "significant" in that bundle, but hey.

If we had to go on the basis of "most significant"/"most influential", it's just going to have to be Plato/Socrates, isn't it? And they're fuckers, so I'm not voting for them. (Also, there are ways of determining influence relatively objectively [number of times cited, continuity of manuscript tradition/years in print], so it would be a bit pointless to put it to a vote - I kind of thought the "vote" framing was... hmm. Not sure how to phrase it. But that a vote would show who was important to people in their lives and in their thoughts, not whose work was most fitted to the conceptual/technological transmission networks of Western metaphysics [= "most influential"]).

I don't really get this "deep foundation" thing (maybe if I'd read Kant I'd have more of a basis for comparison? But the philosophers I know best are probably Derrida and Heidegger, who I think are more starting-in-the-middle people - I have bad associations with the term 'foundation' anyway, so I should probably just go and reread Judith Butler [oh, the hardship... ])
 
 
alejandrodelloco
12:50 / 30.05.05
I picked Nietzche too. I like him because his stuff was full of goofy little puns in the original German.

THE PUN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD!

That said, I wonder why I didn't pick Joyce.
 
 
Trebor
18:45 / 30.05.05
GILLES DELEUZE, his work opened possibilities for me at a time when I felt unable to progress. If the ship you are traveling in is on fire, does it matter how accurate the navigation system is, or how powerful the engine if you have no fire extinguisher to hand? Deleuze was the fire extinguisher that allowed my ship to continue sailing. Crude analogy I know, but I think it atleast points towards my meaning....
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
12:29 / 31.05.05
Either Nietzsche or A.J.Ayer, both for their (IMHO) much-needed iconoclastic assaults on various bastions of philosophical and religious belief. Especially Ayer's witty-but-forceful demolition of metaphysics, which remains one of my favourite acts of mental gymnastics.
 
 
delacroix
06:51 / 03.06.05
My vote goes to Donna Haraway: not only was she a character in Ghost in the Shell 2, BUT: she, riffing off of Derrida (whom I happen to know she never read,) theorized all sciences, including the natural sciences, as techno-mysticism with great alacrity, respect, success, finality, and, most importantly, humor.

Anybody want to back me up on my vote? Or at least share in my admiration for her?

-Delacroix
 
 
Cat Chant
10:59 / 03.06.05
*shuffles feet* I think I probably will, once I've read something more than "A Cyborg Manifesto" and "Gender for a Marxist Dictionary". I have a couple of her books that I've been meaning to read for years, and I suspect she will fulfil all my criteria for a great philosopher - that is, she will think about all the stuff I want a great philosopher to think about, and all at the same time.

And talk about science-fiction. That helps.
 
 
dogtanian
11:38 / 05.06.05
i have a 2nd year political philsophy exam tomorrow morning, which explains my posting here and not revising. my choices would be (i realise these aren't really "arguments" for why i would vote these people, when i'm less snowed under i may try to elaborate)

JS Mill (for On Liberty alone, which went against so many 19th century values but without being gratuitous, and maybe The Subjection of Women too)

Nietzsche (for On The Genealogy of Morality - a book which challenges something we take so much for granted, this can only be a good thing. also The Antichrist is a great read, if a bit bizarre)

Sartre (can't really say why, i just like his work, especially his Existentialism and Humanism...)

Marx (he was far too idealist, but if his ideas had been in any way practical they would've been great, some kind of change is needed in society, i think)

AJ Ayer (managed to be a great philosopher, his A Priori thesis is a joy to read, and have a sense of humour as well which is surely a first?)

and a special mention to Aquinas - i don't particularly like his lines of thought, but he had a great impact on certain areas (hello, catholic church).
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply