BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Galloway's victory

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
odd jest on horn
12:21 / 07.05.05
So, Gorge George wins in Bethnal Green. A constituancy he's had no relations with until the campaigning for the general elections. This constituency has around 40% muslim population, and strong anti-war sentiments. Oona King, the former MP, was a complete Blairite with respect to the war, but did a lot of good work in housing, schools and such according to the press. She is also pro-Palestinia as is GG.

Is it wrong per se, under the current voting system, to take advantage of the situation (anti-war sentiment, "pro-war" MP) to win? Even if it means ousting an otherwise capable MP that seems to care about the day-to-day problems facing her voters?

Will George Galloway do good for his constituency, or was it just one in the face for Blair?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:24 / 07.05.05
Of course it's all right, that's the democratic process! And if King lost her seat because she wasn't opposed to the war, like the majority of voters in her constituency then she failed in her duty to reflect their views.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:20 / 07.05.05
Well I think it's a little more complicated than that - just because something is legal and just because someone has the right to do something doesn't automatically make the thing they do ethical. We've had discussions elsewhere on the board about the Conservative party's campaigning as well, and that was a clear example of a place where people felt that the way someone campaigned could be considered innappropriate, unethical - even just plain wrong. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that one could make the same claims about Galloway.

If Galloway's intent is to shame Blair and make a big stand and to frame the debate around those issues alone (and if he's prepared to distract from the other issues and work that the current MP has done in order to do that) then if he's not going to do the work she did or is not equipped to do that work effectively he's acted inappropriately and unethically. If he believes himself to be equal to the work she's been doing, aware of the issues and concerns of the constituency and prepared to work to meet their needs then I have less issue with it.

I personally don't think much of the man, but that's got little to do with it, and I guess you could argue that the local constituency are big and ugly enough to judge fairly based on all the evidence at their disposal and they can always get rid of him next time. I guess I just tend to think that a lot of the work that an MP does probably is pretty invisible to most people, and that it's probably a hell of a lot easier to persuade people by focusing on one issue that generally has broad public support and to turn that into a crusade than it is to represent the complexity and balances and work that an MP does over a longer period of time. I suspect I'd think anyone who asked people to make important decisions based on luridly over-simplified rhetoric was probably acting unethically, and I'm personally more inclined to believe anyone who gestures towards complexity in what I believe are complex issues.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:34 / 07.05.05
Well, the media has focused pretty exclusively on RESPECT's anti-war position, not without justification since that's how they've sold themselves to the rest of the country, but that's not the entirety of their stance; they have more general positions opposing New Labour policies, privatisation etc. Galloway seems to have spent some time addressing other issues in Bethnal Green than the war. He was quite amusing challenging various sleep-deprived journos on the morning of the sixth when they accused him of being single-issue. I find it hard to believe that the electorate there would have picked somebody who they thought wasn't concerned with constituency issues.

The idea that he's not "local" is irrelevant as well; King parachuted in in 1997. I used to live in Bethnal Green during her period as MP and to be honest I wasn't particularly impressed by any of the "dedication and skills" that are now being trumpeted; "at least it's better than Hackney" was the best I could say. Galloway's not a political ingenue and there's no reason to assume that he's going to be unable to perform duties as an MP.

In any case, it is not intrinsically a bad thing for people to vote for a candidate on the basis of a single issue that they feel is overwhelmingly important. As long as they weren't deceived about other issues, if they wanted to vote for someone to represent a particular point of view in Parliament then that's their right. Even if he'd said "all I'm interested in is Iraq, I'm going to do bugger all as a constituency MP" and people had voted for him on that basis, I don't see how that would be unethical. The question is (a) what has he promised and (b) what will he deliver. If the two don't coincide, yes, that's bad. But that's all.
 
 
sleazenation
15:44 / 07.05.05
It is certainly a complex and interesting issue -

The East End has long been to the home of the poor and the largely disenfranchised - The Labour movement was in many ways born in the East End where Keir Hardy won the first seat for the Independant Labour Party, it also has a long history of 'accommodating' large immigrant communities from Jewish/Polish communities to London's first China Town and on to the areas current Muslim population, mainly of Bangladeshi origin. However this has also lead many times in the past to massive racial tensions - the area was also a strong base for Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists... It is in this area, this arena, that Galloway has chosen to fight for his personal political survival against the New Labour project personified by Blair that eleminated his old constituency in Scotland.

I think this last point is key. Galloway identifies himself as Old Labour, but you don't often hear him talking about the importance of the unions or the need to re-nationalise the utilities, you do hear him talk of how he personally has been victimized. By newspapers, the wider media and his old party. Coupled to this Galloway's voting record and attendence at parliament are not particularly spectacular.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:02 / 07.05.05
you don't often hear him talking about the importance of the unions or the need to re-nationalise the utilities

Actually you don't read that in the press, if you'd been to the rallies that he's spoken at in the last three years than you would realise that those issues leak in to his speeches at STWC seminars, never mind when he's engaged in political campaigning. And I've seen him speak five times in 24 months, how many events have you attended where he's been on a panel?

Before Respect was set up I was at an anti-war rally on Euston Road where they informed us that they were going to start a political party. During the meeting a group of firefighters from the Union, Bob Crow and a group of postal workers were introduced to us. About half an hour was spent discussing Trade Unions and renationalisation. Respect didn't even exist yet. I think they're pretty clear on their policies if you stop reading the national press and believing the complete toss they're spouting about them.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:05 / 07.05.05
And they are consistently slated or ignored by the media, is it any wonder he feels he needs to point that out?
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
23:44 / 07.05.05
This is the man who said: “Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability”. Imagine if he said this to other killers such as Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe or Slobodan Milosovic? And talking about his anti Jewish accusations, he also said: “And I want you to know we are with you until victory, until Jerusalem.” Oona King's Jewish heritage? Lets ignore it. At least he gave Blair a “bloody nose”.
 
 
Ganesh
00:15 / 08.05.05
You're kinda keen on that quote, Finsbury, but it's been pointed out elsewhere that Galloway's defended his statement, on several occasions, by claiming he was referring to the Iraqi people rather than Hussein himself. Whether or not one believes him is another matter, but one cannot simply claim he was brown-nosing a "killer".

Incidentally, it's worth pointing out that brown-nosing dictators and war-mongers responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands is something of a diplomatic tradition in the West. Indeed, being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands is something of a tradition - which rather clouds the issue of who is and isn't a morally abhorrent "killer"...
 
 
Smoothly
00:42 / 08.05.05
There's also the question of what Galloway's rhetoric does for race relations, particularly in areas where there is already tension.

"Bush and Blair may not be 'at war with Islam', but Islam is now at war with them and we will be lucky if that is not soon visible on the streets of northern English cities."
Sounds a bit 'rivers of blood' to me. But I think I can be a bit squeamish about these things.
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
00:58 / 08.05.05
I’m not excusing the actions of the warmonger Blair, but I also feel that Galloway’s phraseology and proximity to Saddam Hussein seem to implicate him in supporting Hussein. He obviously made a calculated decision to stand in a borough with a large Muslim population, rather than his former Glasgow constituency. I just thought that I would propose a critical voice. I feel a gut instinct (based on some facts to dislike the guy.
 
 
Ganesh
01:13 / 08.05.05
I also feel that Galloway’s phraseology and proximity to Saddam Hussein seem to implicate him in supporting Hussein.

Sure - but, if we're going to censor politicians on the basis of Consorting With Mass-Murdering Dictators, Galloway's going to be relatively far down that list. Merely 'seeming to be implicated in supporting' despots is small fry, morally speaking...

He obviously made a calculated decision to stand in a borough with a large Muslim population, rather than his former Glasgow constituency.

I'm doing my best to recall the circumstances in which Galloway lost his Glasgow constituency. I'm pretty sure he was, at least in part, a victim of boundary-redrawing in Scotland, meaning his constituency effectively vanished. As a vocal dissenter within New Labour, he was deeply unpopular with the higher echelons (although popular with his actual constituents, I believe) and there was the suggestion, at the time, that this contributed to Galloway losing his seat.

So... I don't think he had the option of going for his old Glasgow constituency...

I just thought that I would propose a critical voice. I feel a gut instinct (based on some facts to dislike the guy.

Facts are kinda important. Gut instinct not infrequently leads us to make claims and allegations we cannot later substantiate: WMDs, 40 minutes, etc., etc.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:45 / 08.05.05
No, that's trying to found a substantial basis for said gut instinct on deception, material untruths and exaggeration in order to push for action on said gut instinct. That's betraying said gut instinct by attempting to justify it through deception. Simply having a gut instinct on a subject doesn't lead to anything of the sort.

My gut instinct? Galloway's a weasel - a charismatic speaker who knows exactly how to appeal to those people whose support he needs. Remind you of anyone (irony of ironies, given the context)? His speeches, RESPECT's whole platform, tick all the right boxes, and yet seem strangely inconsistent with his own chequered history when it comes to : voting and parliamentary attendance ; the accusations of almost criminal (certainly immoral) misappropriation of funds that he's never bothered to properly refute ; his appalling cigar-chomping self-aggrandisement ; the worrying tendency to support smaller imperialists like Iraq over larger imperialists like the US - near-monthly admitted visits to senior Iraqi officials over a nine-year period (funded by...?), including (again admitted) spending Christmas 1999 hanging out with Saddam's deputy, Tariq Aziz, eating and partying with him ; etc. I consider him as great a liability to the left as Tony Blair, albeit for entirely different reasons. And no, I can't escape the feeling that he travelled to a massive Muslim constituency purely to oust a pro-war MP heavily identified with 'Liability' Blair (if you're the one who coined that one, Ganesh, then I probably owe you royalties for the number of times I've used it the last few days). His interviews since the win are purely to do with himself - his struggles against criticism, his victory, and what it means to the pro-Blair, pro-war 'forces' that he feels have maligned him, and he's mentioned very little else. Smug in victory, I think he's revealed his true colours:

"I see it as a vindication both personally and politically... I have taken everything that could be thrown at me, more than anyone else I have known in my political lifetime. I cannot think of a person who has, to the same degree, been smeared and decried. This is also a vindication for the anti-war movement. The vast majority of the public think that Mr Blair deceived the country."

He's also vowed to stand down at the next general election in favour of a Bangladeshi candidate (Bethnal Green & Bow having a huge Bangladeshi Muslim population). Ticking all the right boxes again - except that he clearly has no interest in the constituency himself, or he wouldn't immediately count himself out of devoting more than five years to it. He couldn't even bring himself to acknowledge King's personal defeat, claiming in his usual grandiose manner that it was instead "a defeat for Tony Blair and New Labour and all of the betrayals." His final response to Paxman's inept bludgeoning was, I think, key: "They chose me. Can't you find it within yourself even to congratulate me?" Me. Me. Me. I won. I beat them. I came back. I am teh phoenix.

King's 'pro-war' stance, incidentally, bears closer examination than a typically 'anti-war' kneejerk response. She was heavily involved in the parliamentary inquiry on Saddam's regime's torture and abuse of Iraqis in the early nineties, and had a deeply committed desire to see him removed based upon that. I don't agree with the decision that resulted from that, but the principles behind it aren't dishonourable, unlike Liability's (10p winging its way to you, elephant man). She's got a passionate commitment to civil liberties of all kinds stemming from way back to her family's relationship with the '60s civil rights marches and her father's abuse by the white US esablishment. It's part of what made her a good MP.

Her record is in council matters, constituency matters - from her first days when she was instrumental in changing the law that the lowest bid for competitive services had to be accepted by local councils, regardless of any other factors, to just before her defeat, when she was successful in nabbing funding from Two Jags to regenerate some of the most overcrowded ad poverty-stricken areas in Bethnal Green & Bow, meaning money for around 6,000 homes, after ferocious lobbying and hard work. That's precisely why it was so much easier to attack her in broad strokes on a single massively divisive issue than to attack her on her record. Simply put, Galloway doesn't really have much of a record, and King does.
 
 
Ganesh
12:48 / 08.05.05
No, that's trying to found a substantial basis for said gut instinct on deception, material untruths and exaggeration in order to push for action on said gut instinct. That's betraying said gut instinct by attempting to justify it through deception. Simply having a gut instinct on a subject doesn't lead to anything of the sort.

In the context of powerful political leaders who place more emphasis on gut instinct than on fact-based evidence, then it not infrequently (which is how I phrased it in my last post) does lead to highly-selective justification for that gut instinct - and I'm not sure that Blair, even now, would acknowledge to himself that he used outright deception; I suspect he'd continue to justify the means (misleading Parliament, spinning rumour as certainty to the public, etc.) entirely on the end (Hussein is no longer in power), where the necessity for that end was based on gut instinct.

And no, I can't escape the feeling that he travelled to a massive Muslim constituency purely to oust a pro-war MP heavily identified with 'Liability' Blair

I think that may well be true - but, given his previous experiences with Blair's New Labour in terms of losing his constituency, and attempted smears connected to his violent opposition to the war, it's perhaps understandable.

His interviews since the win are purely to do with himself - his struggles against criticism, his victory, and what it means to the pro-Blair, pro-war 'forces' that he feels have maligned him, and he's mentioned very little else. Smug in victory, I think he's revealed his true colours:

"I see it as a vindication both personally and politically... I have taken everything that could be thrown at me, more than anyone else I have known in my political lifetime. I cannot think of a person who has, to the same degree, been smeared and decried. This is also a vindication for the anti-war movement. The vast majority of the public think that Mr Blair deceived the country."


Thing is, I don't actually disagree with any of that. Okay, he's a prima donna and a bit of a tit, but there has been a concerted effort to smear him, and it is a vindication for the anti-war movement. Given the approach that is still taken toward him (Paxman's 'how do you feel about removing one of the few black women MPs' question - was a similar question addressed to the individual who ousted Stephen Twigg?), I can understand at least some of his irritation, and even a degree of smugness in terms of feeling he's triumphed over massive odds.

He's also vowed to stand down at the next general election in favour of a Bangladeshi candidate (Bethnal Green & Bow having a huge Bangladeshi Muslim population). Ticking all the right boxes again - except that he clearly has no interest in the constituency himself, or he wouldn't immediately count himself out of devoting more than five years to it.

Is there any way he could've won this one, though? If he hadn't vowed to stand down next time, he'd be accused of simply wanting to be an MP. In the same way as Martin Bell put himself forward as 'anti-sleaze', Galloway's sold himself (with the media's delighted compliance) predominantly on the 'anti-war' ticket. We didn't malign Bell the minute he stepped into the job; it seems unfair to dismiss Galloway as non-interested in his constituency at this early stage.

He couldn't even bring himself to acknowledge King's personal defeat, claiming in his usual grandiose manner that it was instead "a defeat for Tony Blair and New Labour and all of the betrayals." His final response to Paxman's inept bludgeoning was, I think, key: "They chose me. Can't you find it within yourself even to congratulate me?" Me. Me. Me. I won. I beat them. I came back. I am teh phoenix.

I think his "usual grandiose manner" bears at least some examination in the context of his previous record with the Glasgow constituency (he was apparently very popular) and also the extent to which he actually has been treated badly by Blair, New Labour and the media machine. During this campaign, there's been a tendency to characterise his electioneering as crassly opportunist and somehow 'unsporting', while emphasising Oona King's dedication to the job and 'right' to be a Bethnal Green & Bow MP (both of which are arguably questionable, as pointed out by Fridgemagnet). Within that context - and with Paxman's ridiculous final attempt to goad him - I'm not hugely surprised Galloway acted like a boor.

King's 'pro-war' stance, incidentally, bears closer examination than a typically 'anti-war' kneejerk response. She was heavily involved in the parliamentary inquiry on Saddam's regime's torture and abuse of Iraqis in the early nineties, and had a deeply committed desire to see him removed based upon that.

Whether or not King's stance was kneejerk surely isn't the question: what's more relevant is the degree to which that stance set her apart from her constituents to the extent that they took their vote elsewhere.

She's got a passionate commitment to civil liberties of all kinds stemming from way back to her family's relationship with the '60s civil rights marches and her father's abuse by the white US esablishment. It's part of what made her a good MP.

I think both MPs' passionate commitments bear scrutiny here. I'm a little concerned that we're disproportionately dismissing the one as motived primarily by personal vainglory while selling the other as of more moral depth/worth - on the basis of media-facilitated gut instinct rather than equal levels of scrutiny.
 
 
Ganesh
12:51 / 08.05.05
(Cheers for the 'Liability' strokes, though, Jack. Now I'm feeling slightly smug...)
 
 
Joetheneophyte
13:21 / 08.05.05
Galloway does come accross as a little pompous but I would be similarly defensive the way the media has treated him

He has won how many cases against newspapers recently?

I think he has to date won three libel cases and as such, does seem disproportinately maligned in the press. I don't know much about his past but I do think that despite any shortcomings, he is passionate and does seem to convey true conviction, something the spin doctor driven other Members of Parliament seem singularly unable to do

Love him or hate him, Galloway does come accross as passionate in his beliefs and for that alone, he strikes me as more trustworthy than some others in that establishment, even those who on the surface make more sense. I actually respect him on some level for his lack of political correctness and his steadfast refusal to follow the whips

It is all a mute point anyway though.....with him threatening Blair with legal action in the Hague....it is only a matter of time before he meets some accident or fatal illness.


I'll give you odds of 33/1 that he is found dead within the next eighteen months (maximum bet 1 penny)
 
 
Joetheneophyte
13:25 / 08.05.05
besides my lunatic conspiracy theories.......I laughed when I re-read my post when I noted that I had used a plural term and then said 'singularly unable to do'

that just shows my rantings for what they are


the ravings of a conspiracy nut

but I still think he will meet an untimely end

sad really, politics needs characters like him (imo)
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
13:44 / 08.05.05
(Shall I set up a paypal account?)

I think both MPs passionate commitments bear scrutiny here. I'm a little concerned that we're disproportionately dismissing the one as motived primarily by personal vainglory while selling the other as of more moral depth/worth - on the basis of media-facilitated gut instinct rather than equal levels of scrutiny.

Fair point about equal scrutiny, and one I was trying in some small part to redress when I posted, just the other way around. I think there's no small tendency to see Galloway as wholly vindicated by his recent win, as well as by previous discoveries of certain documentation relied upon by the Telegraph in their smear campaign (and I think there's no doubt that Galloway was the victim of a sustained smear campaign - I just can't bring myself to believe that it wasn't based on fundamental problems and legitimate concerns with the man's track record and dubious history. There's an edit going into the above post that clarifies a few things concerning both King and Galloway's distinct track records in that respect, and I think Fridge's remark is answered by Tom's previous point about the 'invisible' work an MP does on a daily basis) as fabricated. I don't think he has been vindicated - he ran almost entirely on a popular anti-war, anti-Blair position in a constituency that was pre-disposed to agree with him. That's just preaching to the converted. I think there are unanswered questions relating to his character and to his past that still remain. Essentially, I think he's incredibly dodgy, and yet he presents himself as highly principled - which apparent hypocrisy, for me, only adds to my suspicions about his character. And although I think we're all agreed that Paxman's line of questioning/hectoring was an embarrassment, I think that crucially Galloway came across as an egotistical boor because he is one, not because he was needled into a boorish response.

And I don't think it's a vindication for the anti-war movement, either. Popular opinion on the issue hasn't really been disputed for quite a while. An apology/resignation on Blair's part - official confirmation from Downing Street that the war was illegal - stuff like that would be a vindication. It's just more confirmation that, on grass roots level, and specifically among the British Muslim community, the war was unpopular. Hardly front page news, even if it has made the front pages again.

I don't think it's unfair to dismiss Galloway as disinterested in Bethnal Green & Bow at all. On the contrary, I think his declaration that he will not serve more than a term shows his ambitions for what they are - that the win was a means to an end. Great for Galloway - he's got what he was after. Hardly fantastic for the people who voted for him, who he has no intention of representing on any kind of long term basis, and it's difficult to see how he has any kind of commitment to the constituency.

Incidentally, I was asserting that a lot of the responses to King's 'pro-war' stance were kneejerk, as well as, potentially, her own.
 
 
Ganesh
14:43 / 08.05.05
I agree that he isn't wholly "vindicated" by his election win, but I'd argue that, until backed up with some degree of evidence, "suspicions" about Galloway's reliability or non-reliability as an MP would appear to owe more to the 'there's no smoke without fire' school of pseudo-reasoning than to an even half-legitimate case against the man.

There's an implicit suggestion that standing on a predominantly anti-war ticket in a constituency full of individuals passionately opposed to the war is 'cheating' or 'unreasonable'. It might equally be argued that Galloway was motivated by a desire to revive and highlight an issue in danger of being 'moved on' from - and to provide the individuals within that constituency with an opportunity to demonstrate their strength of feeling on that issue (as, presumably, did Martin Bell with 'sleaze'). The fact that he clearly has a high degree of personal investment in tangible 'triumphing' over the New Labour machine doesn't necessarily detract from the value of his involvement - not to me, anyway.

As with Martin Bell, I think it's premature to claim that wanting to limit his involvement to one term indicates that the residents of Bethnal Green & Bow are going to suffer. He's an experienced MP who was, by all accounts, much loved by his Glasgow constituents, and there's insufficient reason to conclude that he'll just sit back and contemplate his navel for the next five years.

I may have missed the part where someone claimed the anti-war movement was "vindicated" by Galloway's win. I certainly don't think that's the case, but I do think it helps keep the issue alive (in the face of Blair's continued 'look, let's move on' carpet-sweeping), and perhaps increases the possibility that meaningful vindication might eventually be forthcoming.

But yes, I do think there he's very probably an egotistical boor and yes, I agree that there are "unanswered questions" about Galloway's character - as there very probably are "unanswered questions" with regard to the motives of those who've worked to smear him in the past. On balance, though, I believe he's more sinn'd against than sinning, and he should be afforded a chance to serve his new constituents before dismissing him outright.
 
 
sleazenation
21:13 / 08.05.05
He's an experienced MP who was, by all accounts, much loved by his Glasgow constituents, and there's insufficient reason to conclude that he'll just sit back and contemplate his navel for the next five years.

From they work for you...

As MP for Glasgow, Kelvin George Galloway apparently...
Spoke in 0 debates in the last year — 645th out of 659 MPs.
Asked 0 written questions in the last year — 540th out of 659 MPs.
Replied within 14 days to 50% of messages sent via FaxYourMP.com during 2004 — 398th out of 590 MPs. (Sample size: 68 faxes. Important Caveat.)
Has attended 3% of votes in parliament — 649th out of 658 MPs. (From Public Whip)

I don't think this is a particularly sterling record, but as 'Nesh points out we shall see how well the represents his new constituency...
 
 
Ganesh
21:19 / 08.05.05
Hah! Well, I guess his Glaswegian punters weren't especially demanding...

*watches argument crumble*
 
 
w1rebaby
09:38 / 09.05.05
I've heard Galloway address this - he said that he wasn't going to vote for proposals by Labour, and he wasn't going to vote for any Tory amendments either, since they were as bad as each other.

Found this paper analysing his voting record more closely, if anyone's interested. Apparently he did vote on some things; their summary is:

Since his suspension from the Labour party in May 2003 (and subsequent expulsion in October 2003), George Galloway only voted in 19 out of a possible 710 divisions, an overall turnout rate of 2.7 per cent. But when he did vote, he voted against the government: on 18 out of 19 of those occasions, Galloway voted against the Government, selecting high profile issues to register his opposition, such as foundation hospitals, top-up fees, the Government’s asylum and immigration policy, plans to introduce identity cards, as well as aspects of the Government’s proposals on living wills.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:23 / 09.05.05
Doesn't add to his credibility, in my eyes. Looks like the the voting record of someone determined to make a high-profile stand on high-profile issues. And surely he can vote against something, rather than just for it, or even abstain? Not turning up would appear to be simply not being interested. Mind you, he was (again, at his own admission) in Iraq a hell of a lot over a certain period, constant overseas travel is bound to affect how well you can perform as an MP.

I may have missed the part where someone claimed the anti-war movement was "vindicated" by Galloway's win...

Um - above, you said that "Okay, he's a prima donna and a bit of a tit, but there has been a concerted effort to smear him, and it is a vindication for the anti-war movement." That's what I was referring to - apologies if I misunderstood your point (I recognise that 'a vindication' isn't necessarily completely the same thing as being 'vindicated').
 
 
w1rebaby
10:47 / 09.05.05
In fact, if you consider the period before he was expelled from the party (1997-05-01 to 2003-10-23) he had 44% attendance overall, which is not desperately high but hardly criminal (source). There's a marked difference between that and his record post that event, which to me gives his claims of ideological motivation some credibility over the "rubbish and lazy" explanation.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:09 / 09.05.05
Well, bearing in mind that your '44% overall' is hiding a decrease in voting over the two periods concerned, which, as you say, then markedly decreases yet again upon his expulsion from the Labour party, I'm finding it hard to agree with your interpretation about his motivations. And, frankly, if he was so disenchanted with Labour for so long and is so principled, why wait to be pushed? Other far less mediagenic political figures have left Labour on principle both before and after he got the bum's rush.

None of this rings true for me. His explanations about the time/money spent in Iraq over such a huge period of time, the number of donations to his various businesses/charities by 'Iraqi businessmen' and (allegedly) Middle Eastern authorities... a lot of this is speculation and allegation, but a lot of it is also stuff he's offered qualified or bitty explanations for, some of which has been refuted personally (Peter Hain has basically said Galloway lied about the information given to him concerning Galloways wee Christmas break and statements attributed to him) and some officially (the inquiry into the Mariam Appeal cleared Galloway of misuse of funds, but queried why it was never registered as a charity since it was clearly advertising itself as such and apparently set up to do charitable work). You can rebut the 'there's no smoke without fire' cliche as, well, a cliche and a reactionary one at that... however, cliches are based on experience, and there's too much smoke for comfort. And how many other key anti-war figures have been as comprehensively attacked as Galloway? None. All of which gives me the feeling that he made himself a pretty easy target for it by being a dodgy motherfucker. The whole misuse of funds allegation, let's face it, has been cropping up in different guises for about twenty years - hard to dismiss as purely fiction, especially when the man's not gone to enormous lengths to provide proof denying all of them. And, although I don't know how much it really means, parliamentary standards' investigation of his activities wasn't abandoned, just postponed...
 
 
w1rebaby
10:55 / 10.05.05
My 44% overall is not 'hiding' anything, thank you very much. There is a decrease from 52% to 30% in the last 697 votes, but considering that that latter period

(a) contains just over half the number of votes of the previous 52% period, and

(b) includes the period from 6 May to 24 Oct when he was suspended but not expelled as well as the invasion of Iraq which put him into conflict with the party in the first place

...I think the actual overall figure is a bit more relevant to his potential voting future as a constituency MP. I don't at all see how any of the above goes any way towards disproving his claims as to his own motivation. If he is telling the truth you would expect his record to have tailed off after Iraq. Which it did.

You can rebut the 'there's no smoke without fire' cliche as, well, a cliche and a reactionary one at that... however, cliches are based on experience, and there's too much smoke for comfort.

So you are, in fact, justifying this on the basis of "no smoke without fire"? He must be some sort of astounding political escape artist to get round all of these allegations without having any of them proved at all. I find the following statement problematic too:

how many other key anti-war figures have been as comprehensively attacked as Galloway? None. All of which gives me the feeling that he made himself a pretty easy target for it by being a dodgy motherfucker.

He has been attacked extensively, but then he has a long-standing connection with the Middle East which of course makes it easier. He's also greasy with a bad 'tache and has a line in bombastic exaggerated rhetoric that looks jarring on TV, all of which make it easier. I just don't see how his vulnerabilities combined with the fact that the government is very keen on attacking him can lead to the conclusion that he must be dodgy. I don't know if he's dodgy, but the immensely high smoke:fire ratio makes me much less likely to take rumours at face value.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
16:54 / 10.05.05
I didn't say you were hiding anything, fridge, I said your figures were. The latter period is also significantly shorter a timespan that the former - about eighteen months compared to four years - hence the lower number of votes. The first period shows over 50% attendance - however, there were more votes crammed into that second eighteen month period, and he attended less than a third. It indicates a pattern of falling attendance to me, which is what I was referring to. His record almost vanishes after Iraq, but it had been 'tailing off', as you put it, for a while beforehand.

So you are, in fact, justifying this on the basis of "no smoke without fire"? He must be some sort of astounding political escape artist to get round all of these allegations without having any of them proved at all.

Ok, I'll give you an example. He got away by the skin of his teeth when the Charities Commission investigated the Mariam Appeal. Essentially, if you've ever read the report from the Charities Commission on the Appeal, it says:

* that the Mariam appeal should have been registered as a charity, as it was presented in literature and to the public as having charitable purposes - to get medical aid and treatment to Iraqi children suffering from cancer, and to establish causes of cancer in Iraq - and clearly did have charitable purposes.

Apparently Galloway et al 'received poor legal advice' that made them believe that the Appeal's constitution did not create a charity. The Commission, however, let them off because they claimed not to know that the Appeal should have been registered. This despite the fact that Appeal would have been infinitely better off financially if it had been registered as a charity (the massive tax write-offs, protected by law, etc). The only major drawbacks to doing so would have been a) the transparency the books would have needed - they would have had to have been available to been inspected at any point, and kept according to rigid rules, and b) the possibility of problems cropping up with some of the more political activities the Appeal was funding.

* after forcing the Appeal's books open (with S8-9 Of the Charities Act 1993), that "the major funders of the Appeal were the United Arab Emirates, a donor from Saudi Arabia and a Jordanian businessman Fawaz Zuriekat."

* that they were "unable to obtain all the books and records of the Appeal. Mr Galloway, the first Chairman of the Appeal, has stated that this documentation was sent to Amman and Baghdad in 2001 when Fawaz Zuriekat became Chairman of the Appeal. Mr Galloway has informed the Commission that this documentation is no longer under the control of the original trustees of the Appeal and cannot be located by them. Mr Galloway confirmed that the Appeal did not produce annual profit and loss accounts or balance sheets."

Effectively, then, they didn't keep proper records of financial transactions, even to the extent that an ordinary business would, and what little they did vanished when one of their major contributors became Chairman of the Appeal.

* Certain trustees (including Galloway's wife) received unauthorised payments from the Appeal. Again, the trustees were let off by the Commission because they claimed not to know that they payments had been unauthorised.

His wife, Dr Amineh Abu-Zayyad, received around £18,000 from the appeal - apparently for 'looking after Mariam', which she was qualified to do according to Galloway, though as more than one person has stated, it's difficult to see how a microbiologist is wonderfully qualified to look after a sick child, and how she could take sufficient time away from her post at Glasgow University to do so. Why not hire an actual nurse for a similar sum?

* that they "received assurances from Mr Galloway that the monies received by him from the Appeal related to expenses incurred in his duties as Chairman of the Appeal."

Again, the Commission took Galloway's word for it.

* that the it would not be proportionate to pursue enquiries further, given that the Appeal was now closed and the books had gone missing.

In other words, what records had existed had been removed, so the Commission was forced to accept everyone at their word that there had been no wrongdoing, no misuse of funds, and that it had all been a big mistake.

I have a question. What kind of lawyer, upon being asked for advice on whether a campaign to help sick children would constitute a charity, replies in the negative? Unless, of course, rather than the political activities of the Appeal being ancillary to the main purpose of the appeal, to further getting treatment to sick children (as the Commission concluded), it was actually the other way around. I have another question, one slightly more whimsical one which touches on the issues that might have been raised had Galloway and the Appeal been investigated for money laundering, but since it's clear that a highly principled far left wing political figure like George Galloway would never dream of taking money from Middle Eastern big business and government to pay for his and their political campaigning in the UK and abroad, and since it's obvious that Galloway's financial affairs are above reproach, to do so would be simply foolishness.
 
 
Not in the Face
09:00 / 11.05.05
What kind of lawyer, upon being asked for advice on whether a campaign to help sick children would constitute a charity, replies in the negative?

As someone who specialises in charity objectives I can say that a lot of lawyers are extremely incompetent in this field. However reading these objectives I would be suspicious of any claims of poor advice because the wording as written seems to me to exactly mimic charity obejectives and written by someone who knew what they were doing (i.e - I would write them like this). Also I would ask why the solicitor was not sued as their faulty advice has clearly lead to the loss of funds used for charitable purposes - but then someone would have to sue them which leaves the problem of who I suppose.

The report is pretty daming as well - even if Galloway didn't commit any deliberate criminal act or intentionally mislead, the failure to keep any kind of financial record would lead me to ask about his competence to do anything.

Oddly I would lump Galloway in with Kilroy - someone who by this stage has been so vilified (rightly or wrongly in his case) that they have either had to give up or convince themselves that all this criticism means they must be right
 
 
luminocity
10:44 / 11.05.05
Quick note on charities without having read the material: Among other conditions, trusts are automatically barred from being charitable if their purpose includes political lobbying, campaigning for a change in the law, that sort of thing.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:50 / 11.05.05
It didn't. The Commission's report advised that it could be considered that the Appeal's political activities in campaigning for sanctions to be overturned, etc were ancillary to the stated aims of getting treatment to Iraqi children, and that therefore, along with the fact that the books were not available, meant it did not seem proportionate to pursue any further enquiries.

Anyway - not to get bogged down in Mariam, which isn't the point of this thread - I just used it as an example for fridge of the kind of manoeuvering that Galloway's used to get out of certain allegations made against him.

Also, I'd like to make clear (having re-read my first post in this thread) that I've got no issue at present with RESPECT as a party, just with one of their high-profile representatives in particular.
 
 
Char Aina
16:26 / 11.05.05
Paxman's 'how do you feel about removing one of the few black women MPs' question - was a similar question addressed to the individual who ousted Stephen Twigg?

why would it be?
it was david burrowes who could have been asked, incidentally.

my first thought on seeing the paxman interview was whether george had any options regarding where he stood, and if so, what were they? he lost his glasgow kelvin seat through a redraw. when this was done, he said
"where we're strong and the Member of Parliament is a pro-war, pro-Israel activist, then we'll stand."
he had threatened to force a by-election in the seat at an inopportune moment for blair, so it is hardly surprising that his constituency was vanished;
"If I were to resign this constituency and there was a by-election I can't guarantee that I would win, but I would guarantee that Tony Blair's candidate would surely lose."


depending who you speak to, galloway didnt seek re-election in glasgow for various reasons.
the most likely seat for him to contest would have been glasgow central. his opponent there would have been mohammed sarwar, an old friend and an ally against the iraq war. ousting sarwar would have been a loss for the very movement george was trying to promote, and he might not have been invited round for dinner afterwards.
i'm more convinced by that than by any notion he went after a jew or a woman, certainly.
another quite convincing reason is that he feared the people of his constituency didnt like him enough to re-elect him. (he used to do a soapbox routine on byres road before any election, and i cannot remember him once having an audience larger than one or two for longer than a minute.
in fact, the only time anyone seems to give him an audience is when he is talking about iraq/palestine.)
galloway's powerbase was massively dependent upon the non-white population up here, and i feel sarwar would have taken those supporters from him with ease.
sarwar is popular and he is black, apparently. he's not a woman as far as i am aware, but i guess i was wrong about him being brown, so who knows.

(on sarwar; there was a big stoushie about electoral fraud and bribery when he stood for govan a while back... he was found innocent. most people in govan thought his unprecedented support caused some of the more racist politicians to assume he must have cheated. he has however been reported as regularly carrying a plastic bag around with £5,000 in old bills. no idea what that proves.)
 
 
Char Aina
16:30 / 11.05.05
oh, and from the galloway interview i linked to:

GALLOWAY: Yes, you know I am not pretending to anyone that the European Parliament is a very important place, but the elections to the European Parliament can be very important indeed because they can act as a kind of referendum on Bush and Blair on occupation and war. I intend to keep my seat in the national parliament. You can do both, you only get one salary, but you can do both jobs, and I will use the European Parliament as I have always used the Westminster Parliament: as a platform to argue for just causes linked intimately to the Arabs and Muslims.

he said it himself. thats all westminster is; a platform for his favourite good cause.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:41 / 11.05.05
why would it be?

Because Stephen Twigg was one of the few openly gay MPs in Westminster.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:20 / 11.05.05
Paxman's interview, and principally that question, was utter crap - of all the ways he could have found to attack Galloway (if that's what he felt he had to do), that was one of the lamest he could hsve possibly found, and to pursue it in such a cackhanded, bludgeoning way was, frankly embarrassing to anyone who remembers the intelligent pit bull who used to be the terror of Westminster. Why is this man still fronting
Newsnight? Isn't there a politically bankrupt quiz show they could get him to present? Oh, hang on...
 
 
sleazenation
22:04 / 11.05.05
Whatever you might feel about the quality of Paxman's question what is not indoubt is that Galloway's reply was of even worse quality; arrogant and prideful and utterly unbecoming of MP supposed to be serving his constituents rather than his own ego.
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply