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Geoff Johns, Judd Winick, And the State of DC ***Mild Spoliers***

 
  

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LDones
12:18 / 11.11.05
Tidbit I forgot to paste in.

We're both interested in discussing the subject in a group forum. Invariably in group forums others will have opinions to add that someone feels are of little to no value. It's normal, it shouldn't derail anyone else's participation. I'm sure you're as eager as I am to move on and actually talk about the topic, instead of talking about the way we're talking about it.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
12:27 / 11.11.05
LDones sorry to have winded you up if i did. You're spot on. It's difficult to work around people I can't communicate with when their posts outnumber those I can relate to but whatever, I said my piece and I'm dropping it.

Is Johns' work top tier? No, I'd hardly say that. I'd never prop a copy of Hawkman under someone's nose all dramatic-like saying 'Dude... you just have to read this it's... important.' Come to think of it, I'd never do that, but anyway. Johns and Winnick and Rucka as well are just doing solid super hero books. Morrison has also returned to that fold and while I'm bored to tears by his Seven Soldiers, I think it should be included as he is injecting something he thinks is vital into the super hero genre.

These books (Hawkman through Green Lantern) are not an art form in the same way as say Al Davidson's the Minotaur's Tale, but they are art in the way that Curt Swan's Superman and Ditko's Spider-Man are art. Very different beasts. Would I rather read a Swan Superman or Ditko Spider-Man, Hell yes, but these comics are extensions of that artform, graphic sequential art. Johns and co will never ever be on the same level as Swan and Ditko, but it's all the same thing, really. Just preference of style and taste that define it as better or worse. They all set out to do the same thing.

They don't pretend to be anything other than what they are.

And let me re-iterate that I have absolutely no problem with someone differing from my opinion and no one has to justify anything to me (I'm sure they could care less what I think). I'm just boggled by posters asking for readers of Johns et al to explain why they like his work while they continue to read and hate it and post about it at such a regular basis. And I'm frustrated that it takes up so much space and time here where I'm just looking for some fun conversation, not a soap box to stand on and change people's minds.

If I behaved in some other way, which is possible, I apologize and we can hopefully move on. Cool?
 
 
Aertho
12:30 / 11.11.05
I'd be interested in hearing what Mr. Six finds lacking in Seven Soldiers, and finds plentiful in John's work.

Why boring?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
12:45 / 11.11.05
Apples and Oranges as if you find JSA boring you just don't like it. It's one of those books, you know? If I played you some Bauhaus and you just stared at me, I'd think, 'Ah ha... I'd better lay off the Peter Murphy for this guy.'

But essentially what I dislike about 7S is Grant's wave of ideas not connecting. I mean, he's got these four issues to fill and for me as a reader I didn't see a thread from beginning to end. There were very strong beginnings followed by fits and starts that culminated in a cliffhanger ending a year later (This is a limited review as I was turned off by Zattana, Klarion and Shining Knight by issue 3, only bought the entire Guardian mini). I was also peeved that the idea you could read just one mini and be satisfied was bullshit... for me, anyway. Zattana borrowed ideas and ploththreads from Shining Knight and the issues just seemed to focus on Grant's idea of the day rather than following the character's growth which should have been easy given the strong beginnings each mini had.

I'll take a stab at it and say that this is what keeps me in books like JSA, the character growth combined with the FUCK YEAH action sequences Benjamin is always on about. It surely is geeky and all, but I loved seeing stories such as the one where Mr Terrific talks about his dead wife and how he is 100% there's no afterlife. Then they fight Zombies. The story ended with this sequence of Mr Terrific seeing his wife in heaven but the stubborn bastard is still not 100% ready to admit comfort in a higher plan of existence. As you may imagine, I can relate to that kinda stubborness. He's a fully fleshed out character who grows and changes and has evolved but thankfully not had a miniseries or costume change.

I can 100% understand people being bored with JSA. It's a real monthly, you know? It pulls you from issue to issue like yer a junkie. I read most of them when I was terribly ill with kidney stones for a month and got a lot of enjoyment out of them the same way I did with say X-Men when I was a teenager.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:04 / 11.11.05
It surely is geeky and all, but I loved seeing stories such as the one where Mr Terrific talks about his dead wife and how he is 100% there's no afterlife. Then they fight Zombies. The story ended with this sequence of Mr Terrific seeing his wife in heaven

Oh, well, when you put it like that...
 
 
FinderWolf
13:07 / 11.11.05
Also, I think that Winnick isn't that great in general, and lately has been serving up work that is of even lesser quality than his previous work.

As for Rucka, I think I stated somewhere else in this thread or elsewhere on Barbelith, I feel like Rucka has been the most innovative and reliable of the 3 writers being discussed (his amazing Queen & County far outweighs his Wolverine or Wonder Woman work, although those latter superhero books have both been solid & entertaining - his Wonder Woman in particular I enjoy because that's such a hard character to make interesting and he is succeeding in making a monthly about WW work, IMO - and how many times in comic history can we have said the monthly WW book was really worth checking out at all?).

However, Rucka's Superman has been only ok for me (I feel he's sort of mismatched in being given a monthly Superman book to write; it's not quite the right fit for Rucka) and I wasn't a big fan of COUNTDOWN. I think the OMAC project mini was decent but not great. Mostly I enjoy his WW and am looking forward to him getting back to the Queen & Country comic book. (Rucka is writing another Queen & Country novel, not sure if I'll get to that though I'd like to eventually)

It seems like Rucka built his rep on Q&C and what I thought was a very excellent run on Detective Comics, and in the past year has been turning in work that's good but not quite as good as his earlier work. (although I still enjoy WW as I said -- oh, and wait a minute, forgot about his work on Gotham Central with Brubaker, I very much enjoy Gotham Central)

As for Winnick, he rates lowest of the 3 in my book. At most, he's a mediocre superhero writer who occasionally has a fun idea, a nice character moment, etc. His early Green Arrow arcs (right after Smith & Meltzer left) were the best stuff he's turned in during the past few years and it's not like those were brilliant, they were just fun Green Arrow books that showed an understanding of the sensibility of Ollie and his supporting cast.

Oh, and I guess I would be remiss not to point out that Winnick's graphic novel Pedro and Me is actually pretty decent (autobiographical work that Winnick wrote and drew about his friendship with gay AIDS activist Pedro (don't remember last name) during his stint on The Real World. It actually won a Pulitzer. I also think part of the success of that book was that it documents a time when most of America was not as tuned in to the gay community and not as gay-friendly as it is now (despite Republican attempts at present to be not-very-gay-friendly). The book is basically "wow, guy who never knew any gay people anymore gets to know a gay person and wow, they're wonderful human beings just like the rest of us" plus Winnick's experience of anti-gay sentiment and some AIDS activism stuff, also at a time when most were not nearly as aware of AIDS issues as we are now. Those are my recollections of it, having read it a few years ago.

So I guess I'd say in terms of quailty:

1) Rucka (the most versatile and Real Writer-y of the 3,
having written several best-selling novels in addition
to his comics output)

2) Johns (mostly reliable superhero writer, that's all he
does)

3) Winnick (sometimes just passable and sometimes really
sucky superhero writer, maybe Pulitzer Prize win isn't
quite as significant as it normally is, although he
is the only comic artist/writer to win a Pulitzer
besides Spiegleman for MAUS, although I think we'd
all agree the two are HARDLY in the same ballpark)

I should also say I've never read Winnick's Barry Ween, which helped put him on the map in comics/cartoons/whatever. It seemed silly and entertaining in a ranting sort of way from the brief excerpts I've seen in passing...kind of like a much, much lesser-quality Calvin & Hobbes with curse words.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:09 / 11.11.05
Interestingly, I've found perfectly mediocre and readable comics by Winick and Johns in the past, but I've never read anything by Rucka that was not utterly atrocious.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:46 / 11.11.05
maybe 'best-selling' is a bit too generous to describe Rucka's novels - it occurs to me that they may not have been on the NYTimes list, usually the barometer for that descriptive phrase. But I have gotten the impression they sell decently.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:50 / 11.11.05
I quite liked Rucka's book-reading, pie-eating Wolverine. Better than anything that came after, anyway.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
14:05 / 11.11.05
Rucka's run on Detective Comics was really great in my memory but I agree that by and large his Superman is only the best of the three or so Supes titles and they really suck (poor storylines perhaps because of the 8C madness restriting Simone? Plus Byrne's art has seen better days). His newest Wonder Woman comic was really great, though. It kinda steals from Geoff Johns' idea of centering on the villain, but if yer gonna steal, take what works.

I'm almost positive I've said the exact same thing about Winnick's Green Arrow, Finder... spooky.
 
 
Axolotl
14:22 / 11.11.05
I never understood the hate for Rucka's Wolverine: I quite enjoyed it, especially when it featured Darick Robertson's art.
As for his novels I'd describe them as successful genre fiction: they're enjoyable page-turning thrillers, with some decent characterisation & some tight plotting. Great literature they're not, but that's fine, they're not trying to be.
Gotham Central is enjoyable and well written. Sure it wears its influences on its sleeve, but they're pretty damn good influences.
 
 
The Falcon
14:56 / 11.11.05
Hmm, lots here.

I honestly do think Winick wrote that panel because he is perceived (in a wider and less well-adjusted comics-scape than B'lith) as the 'gay issue' writer. Because he wrote Pedro & Me, and he had Kyle Rayner kick the shit out of some hoodlum who'd beaten up Kyle's gay friend.

And I think that's it. But there is a sizable group of people who think that he's just bound to drop some unwelcome gender-politics in their Green Arrow or Batman or whatever. Seriously.

Anyway, I never read any of his comics, but he was a super-annoying guy on The Real World.

Rucka; I dunno. Wolverine got dull pretty quick, and I think he was later to acknowledge a necessity for a supporting cast; I know i'm given to prefer the ensemble books anyway. I could only stomach one issue of his Superman book, and Wonder Woman just wasn't for me. I have said before his 'Tec with Martinbrough was largely pretty neat though.

Johns, mmh. I think there's a tendency, and I'm fairly sure it's of American-reader origin (do correct me if I'm wrong - these are words I remember seeing initially crop up in Peter David's X-Factor lettercols) to go on about things like 'solidity' and 'characterisation' as vital affirmatives to a superhero book. It doesn't really matter as much to me as things like proper structure, themes and good ideas but there again, I can see these married in Brubaker's more recent work on Cap, Catwoman and Sleeper (didn't like his Batman a while back, but that might be down to the artist - McDaniel?) Anyway, my problem with Johns was just that - what I'd read (first JSA trade, first Hawkman ish) was dreadfully wooden, and thus unengaging; the work also appeared to think riffing off past continuity (some of which I recognised like the worlogog from JLA, some of which has hideously arcane - I remember a panel referencing a 1942 comic) was an end in itself. Superhero books for the sake of superhero books.

That said, I got the first two issues of 8C out of curiosity and he's ticked a couple boxes okay. It's still quite hard to act some of it mentally; the trinity face-off in #1 is schoolyard, but it's not bad overall. Each issue's been fairly self-contained, I've not read any mini preludes, and I'm pretty up to speed (dunno what the fuck Luthor's doing out in Antarctica in his 80's toys suit, but there's two right? Or something? And two Supermans. No, there's three Luthors. That's alright, I love all that multiverse stuff.)

How does someone like Mark Waid fit into this schema (Flux?)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:07 / 11.11.05
Hmmm.

I think Barry Ween is probably the bit of Winnick's work I've enjoyed most - it's loving of its sources without being unduly reverent, has good characters and achieves its limited aims. Also, the characters were actually endearing. I quite liked Exiles, for that matter -it was sometimes sweet and sometimes funny, if highly disposable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:11 / 11.11.05
But I have gotten the impression they sell decently.

From DC editorial?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
15:21 / 11.11.05
See I couldn't read Exiles because it was so full of characters randomly pulled together re-living slightly different Marvel classic tales. And the art was very weak.

Barry Ween is a lot of fun.

The first JSA trade is very awkward. The pairing of writers was a weak one in my opinion. When they get to the Return of Hawkman I think the series takes off... but if you dislike the Hawkman stories stear clear cuz it's more of the same. It's not everyone's thing.

I do think and tried to point out way back in my mammoth post that Johns does tackle themes and good ideas very well.

There was a huge arc about Dr Fate (yet another DC character buried in conflicting continuity and multiple iterations over the years) where he just couldn't get his shit together. Every character he met went on about how he needed to get over his wife being gone and just BE Dr Fate. Hall was just this muddle-headed dude with all this power but it was useless because his wife was lost to him and no one could help him. He had this series of rows with Nabu in the helmet only to discover that all along Nabu had kept his wife prisoner... inside the amulet Fate had been wearing all along. Nabu was trying to control Hector Hall (the current Dr F) and ended up getting pig-piled by all these past incarnations of Fate.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:21 / 11.11.05
Just from articles in the comics press mentioning his Atticus Kodiak (think I have that name right) novels, also his Batman & Queen & Country novels. It's only a vague impression of mine, of course, and admittedly not terribly relevant to the discussion on the merits of his comics work (I only mentioned it as an example of his versatility, a versatility which I don't see Johns having). I don't get the impression that his novels are selling poorly...it's not like he's publishing them under a tiny tiny publishing house and hoping his friends will buy them or anything. But it's not an area I know a tremendous amount about, and probably not worth spending too much time on here.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:24 / 11.11.05
did I just give a serious and probably unnecessary answer to a Haus post that was tongue-in-cheek and mostly rhetorical? I think I did. Sorry folks.
 
 
Simplist
15:34 / 11.11.05
it sounds to my mind that people enjoy Johns if they aren't particularly critical of him and enjoy his subject matter

Well, yeah. I'd add that since superhero comics have traditionally been so very, very poorly written by the standards generally applied to other forms of written fiction, a reasonably solid wordsmith like Johns can be quite refreshing.

(Note that I'm referring here specifically to writing--ie. dialogue, narrative captions, use of language generally--not plotting or the generation of "mad ideas", both of which comics have historically done just fine. And let's face it, it's these latter qualities, not the "writing", that lead us to read DC's new Showcase collections, Marvel's Essentials volumes, pretty much anything by Kirby, etc. I'd be very surprised if any here would be willing to read Stan Lee-level dialogue in a novel, for instance.)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:41 / 11.11.05
Mark Waid does and does not fit into this. Waid's work in the past few years has been very much like Grant Morrison's at his best, but less bombastic and ostentatious. As far as I'm concerned, the current version of Mark Waid is up there with Morrison, Allred, and Milligan in being the anti-Johns. However, as has been mentioned on ILC, it does seem like Kingdom Come was a major formative influence on Johns.
 
 
Mario
16:05 / 11.11.05
"There was a huge arc about Dr Fate (yet another DC character buried in conflicting continuity and multiple iterations over the years) where he just couldn't get his shit together."

I can't help but wonder about that. Hector never actually seemed to get his feet under him in the role. He was always being possessed, brainwashed, or otherwise distracted.

Perhaps the new KC-inspired version will finally get a chance to actually be effective. If you think about it, Fate has always been a bit like the JSA's Thor: fairly overpowered for ordinary supercrime, but just the person to hold in reserve for when the fit hits the shan.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
17:04 / 11.11.05
Flux, are you reading Waid's Legion comic?

Fate has finally come around and we breifly got a full power magic using mad fighting math wizards thing going on with Mordru before he (Fate) disappeared. Now we have just a disembodied helmet and head floating about (the KC version, yes?) which is nut-nut-nutty.
 
 
The Falcon
17:34 / 11.11.05
Can a mod change 'spoliers' in the title please?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:35 / 11.11.05
Yes, Legion of Super Heroes is one of the two regular series that I've been very into lately. The other being Daredevil, which is almost over.
 
 
tickspeak
19:10 / 11.11.05
Uuuuh...I'm pretty sure that Pedro and Me in no way won the Pulitzer Prize...although a google search is telling me that it might have been nominated. Just wanted to throw that out there.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:34 / 11.11.05
Interesting - I just did all kinds of net searches and likewise found mention only of the nomination for the Pulitzer. I really remember hearing several times from various sources that it won that year, but of course memory is a fleeting thing, and nothing on net searches is turning up evidence that it won. So yeah, maybe it just got nominated.
 
 
X-Himy
20:42 / 11.11.05
Barry Ween is great.

And I personally think Rucka's Tec is up there as one of the greatest Batman arcs there ever was.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
19:33 / 12.11.05
I remember when I was writing up comic reviews on a more regular basis, and as I was reading Winick's Green Lantern, it struck me that I liked the comic until anything remotely super-hero realted started happening.

Add that to how much I liked Pedro and I and Barry Ween, and I think Winick as a writer who can do good work, just not in the super-hero genre.

As for Rucka's sales, as far as I have heard is that he sells toward the upper end of the mystery genre. Not bestseller territory, but well enough that his novels get "book dumps" and good placement in larger bookstores.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
19:53 / 12.11.05
Ah, I could do with a good book dump.

I never read Winnick's Green Lantern series. Been tempted but never bothered. Any other insites on his work there?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
22:04 / 12.11.05
Not really...he added a storyline on GL's gay assistant being beaten up which seemed incredibly forced and like a "very special episode of Green Lantern". He had some good dialogue sequences and made Kyle likeable (which must be hard becuase Morrison is the only other writer who managed that), but it ended with a boring and overly predictable "Green Lantern goes into space and neglects his girlfriend back home cheats on him" series.

I'm starting to think that if a writer has no idea what to do with an overly powerful character, they send them into space for a year.
 
  

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