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Geoff Johns, Judd Winick, And the State of DC ***Mild Spoliers***

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
17:15 / 10.11.05
Also, are you familiar with the concept of "morbid curiosity"?
 
 
Ganesh
17:18 / 10.11.05
Surely that panel should read, "... OR YOU'LL ALL BE HAVING TEH GAY SEX"?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
17:27 / 10.11.05
Fair enough you don't pay for it, but I'll go back to my earlier statement, why waste your time looking for it and reading it in any way?

Surely there's plenty of comics you like... right?

Perhaps you could learn kung fu or mediate? Go for a jog?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:33 / 10.11.05
You've really never heard of "morbid curiosity"?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
17:38 / 10.11.05
Matthew, are we both going to pretend we're not reading the other person's posts?

I have heard of it but I've never seen it to this extent.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:44 / 10.11.05
At this point, the DC Universe is such a spectacular trainwreck that it's hard for me to look away.
 
 
Quantum
17:49 / 10.11.05
The reason why is because Winick and Johns are sophomoric, barely competant writers,
Matthew Fluxington

I'll second that.

write more Barry Ween. I think we'd all be happier.
(Mario, waaay back at the top of the thread)

and that.

Petey, I think I am forced to nominate that page as a contender for the worst writing ever thread. Ta.
 
 
Spaniel
18:35 / 10.11.05
By the way, Flux, it's lovely to have you back, even if you are only posting sporadically.
 
 
Mario
18:40 / 10.11.05
I still want that "Barry Ween in Space" mini, dammit...
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:59 / 10.11.05
Okay, I'll see your Winick but everyone keeps slagging on old Johnsy and I haven't seen any evidence of it. I mean, I'm sure someone will/could/definitely will throw up the Impaled Boobie panel from 8C #1, but surely that's not indicative of his entire writing career. The stories might too continuity heavy for some, but "sophomoric, barely competant"? I just don't get that. Usually that whole "well, your preference does not dictate actual merit" argument is so totally lame but in this instance I can't think of any other one.

Is someone who, as I've stated like eight billion times, got into the DCU specifically because of Green Lantern: Rebirth, am I stupid? Are my standards so dulled? I'm sure we all know that's not true. As much as I'm interested in the DCU these days, it doesn't change my opinion of Identity Crisis, which is still about appealing to me as doodie. It's certainly not some kind of fanatical devotion to the characters or the universe, both of which I could've cared less about a few years back.

It's probably pretty easy to say, "Well, Benjamin, you actually are wrong and deluded, and Geoff Johns is just a bad writer. Here are some examples I scanned in."

But...doesn't that make you...just as bad...as Ye Olde Superman?

Well, maybe it doesn't. But I know I ain't stupid.
 
 
Aertho
19:19 / 10.11.05
What's Geoff Johns done that's "good"? I don't collect anything DCU proper, and I only know of the bad stuff. Maybe Finder could help. What's so "great" about this guy? What ideas has he brought to the table? What's his deal?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:33 / 10.11.05
On another board, I was doing this thread in which I went through this huge stack of recent DC Comics, reviewing each issue.

Here is an excerpt:

JLA #115 by Geoff Johns, Allan Heinberg, and Chris Batista.

"Crisis of Conscience - Part One"

This issue is largely imcomprehensible. Since I read the Countdown To Infinite Crisis thing, I know about the backstory with the JLA mindwiping Batman, J'onn J'onzz, and some villains, so I wasn't totally lost with that plotline, but I couldn't help but notice that this issue did virtually nothing to advance the plot. It basically reiterated that concept from an earlier story, featuring a lot of whiney exposition about it, and then went off on several poorly articulated tangents, each involving characters who aren't fully established for the benefit of people coming into the story cold. Lucky for me I already know who Red Tornado and Star Sapphire are, but I'm not clear on why they are in the story, and a less geeky reader would have been even more confused than I definitely was. This is poorly written, badly constructed dreck designed only to please fanboys who read every current DC title. It made me feel icky. D+
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:36 / 10.11.05
I blame Heinberg. Next?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:49 / 10.11.05
Oh come on. How is it all Heinberg's fault? Did he come over and FORCE Johns to write all that nonsense? Did Heinberg happen to script the issue as well as draw it, and I missed the credit?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
20:00 / 10.11.05
Ah, Jesus... OK, I'll bite but then I'm out because this is boring the pants offa me.

Geoff Johns took over The Flash and brought a harder edge to the series with dangerous villains, a new supporting cast and strong emotionally-charged stories culminating the betrayal of close-friend and meta criminal profiler Hunter Zolomon after Wally refused to use time travel to sort out his problems. Zolomon decided to use the cosmic treadmill himself and was transformed int a new Zoom-like villain who caused so much trouble the Spectre and Barry Allen stepped in and allowed Barry a new lease on life.

Johns then took the series in a very different direction by making Wally have a dual life and giving the stories a more street-level vibe which was sadly short-lived as Howard Porter enterted the fray and the series began to resemble its former stance once more with intense battles and an ever-increasing awkwardness between Wally and his wife.

Wally then encounterted the troubles left behind by Barry Allen in the fallout of the Identity Crisis series involving the villain the Top. This built up into a gigantic war between the rogues with the Flash stick in the middle. Barry Allen returned and the two Flashes duked it out in a mad battle with... everyone, really. Geoff Johns' run was terribly intense and full of violence anfd very close analyzation of the motives of supervillainsd as well as the character of Wally West. I think Geoff felt somewhat bad about how bloody the series had gotten so he ended his run with Wally finding out his wife was pregnant with twins.

With the success of Grant Morrison's JLA series, it became apparent that super heroes were big again. With cowriter James Robinson, Johns reworked the JSA into a geberational series as well as one about super heroes. Again and again stories were about dangling threads of villains' run ins 20 years ago or family problems coming back to haunt team members. JSA gained lots of press and a strong fan base that followed the newly re-created characters of Mr Terrific and Dr Midnight as well as old standards like the original Green Lantern and Flash. Lots of actions, mad monsters and increasingly explosive storylines kept the series strong to this day.

Following up on his success at JSA, Geoff rolled up his sleeves and re-introduced Hawkman to the DC Universe. Hawkman had become a very confused character after Crisis on Infinite Earths and anyone who has not read the last 10 issues of the 90's series has no idea what a bad comic is. John re-introduced the concept first introduced in the 40's original of a timelost love story. This explained away the variations of the character and also gave Hawkman a rich tapestry of character to fall back on and numerous one-off flashback stories (seen as such successes in Starman). The only catch was that Hawkman's long lost love Shyera did not remember him. So this Hawkman spent many nights boxing the clown as Hawkgirl flew off to apparently writhe in her panties at night.

Johns' Hawkman series was a huge success, it showed that a character more or less written off as a disaster could be reworked and used in new ways that didn't disregard past stories fans loved so much. It was this skill that got him the Green Lantern gig which resulted in a very successful miniseries Rebirth and regular ongoing series with a new GL Corps series on its way.

I don't have the time to cover Teen Titans, but essentially a sense of family, tradition and delving into the makeup of each character is in his scripts... aside from the new issue wich I thought was lame.

So... riding the wave of 'super heroes are cool again' lead by Grant, Kurt Busiek and Mark waid, Johns has run the gamut of the supporting cast silver age characters to help build that world of super heroes back up again.

My big old two cents.

Go ahead and tear it to pieces, I only spent like twenty minutes on it and you DID ask.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:09 / 10.11.05
So basically people like Geoff Johns because he does really bland, conversative superhero stories, but throws in lots of "modern" trappings to appeal to the aging fanboy.
 
 
This Sunday
20:39 / 10.11.05
Winick, outside of his biographical foray, has yet to entertain me... other than that 'the gay sex' line, which I love and believe - have to make myself to continue being happy and not bleed from the eyes from the inanity believe - that he knows what he's doing there.
Johns... entertaining in passing, but it passes and I can't work up an urge to ever look back. When I've tried, in the past - on his JSA and Hawkmonkey books because his 'Flash' don't cut it for me at all - it has no life at all in it, that second time 'round. And I put the comic down for three seconds and lose any energy or concern with it at all.
That ain't right.
'Infinite Crisis' is turning out to be more fun than I was expecting, but that's because I was expecting them to actually honestly avoid doing anything cosmic, big, or non-ass-rapey and angsted. The current state of the DCU has destroyed my ability to use real words!
I still think Hypertime's going to explode miraculously from this, and loudly shall we all know Batwoman. Even Batman. Possibly biblically. In a(nother) metatextual cosmo-genital explosion that shall break the interweb by the power of Hawkeye's crucified costume and gypsy gals shopping. Or Black Canary's possible trashiness.
Heh. I'm sorry, I know it's all very dark and serious and intense and these people are raping our collective childhood and abusing characters the don't understand the way we do (and the way those characters understand ME!), but it's all kinda funnny, innit? Giggle inducing? Yes? Not just to me?
I can live with jet-ape ass-rape squadrons. Especially if Superchrist punches through time and continuity barriers to fight them.
 
 
Spaniel
20:48 / 10.11.05
Did Johns invent that Murmer guy?

Fanboy rant ahead.

Having not read the bulk of John's run on the Flash perhaps I'm not equipped to comment, but I can't help thinking how astonishingly unimaginitive and, IMO, unthreatening the Rogue war battle thingy actually was. Just imagine what Morrison would do with something like that. Just imagine how absolutely fucked the Flash would be. Christ, Millar and Morry managed to reshape Mirror Master into a crazily exciting, novel, and horrifically badass villain in two issues (oh, and in the same two issues they worked in some lovely character moments) - a proper arch enemy. Grant's Mirror Master was almost more than a match for Wally *by himself*, just think what Grant could have done with the rest of the Rogues...

...Boboss trails off...

I love the Flash. I can't help myself.

Rant over
 
 
Spaniel
20:54 / 10.11.05
Decresent, there are those of us on Barbelith that don't like the way Winick is equating teh gay sex with teh badness (like incest and demonic punishment).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:40 / 10.11.05
everyone keeps slagging on old Johnsy and I haven't seen any evidence of it

Why did some of Hal Jordan's hair turn grey again?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:43 / 10.11.05
And you know, I can't even muster any real anger at teh gay mind-control sex as threat - it doesn't make me angry, it just makes me think "Even Mark Millar at his most indulgent and lazy would probably have thought this was a bit too rubbish and purile."
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:05 / 10.11.05
I was kidding, Fluxie. I didn't really like Crisis Of Conscience either. I didn't care about that Third Eye Guy, nor Identity Crisis, but I did like to see them argue. The villains were stupid too.

Ummmmmmmmm, let's see.

So basically people like Geoff Johns because he does really bland, conversative superhero stories, but throws in lots of "modern" trappings to appeal to the aging fanboy.

Man, I don't know. In terms of appealing to the aging fanboy, pretty much everything Johns does pisses them off. He's always retconning stuff or messing with someone's origin or whatnot. Don't most of them hate them for that?

And as far as Hal's grey hair? Okay, I think I'm getting it now. It's not that Geoff's comics are incomprehensibly muddled to you, it's just that you don't like his ideas. After all, he clearly explained that Parallax, or fear, had turned that hair white, like Leland Palmer and that dude from To Kill A Mockingbird before him. Pretty easy to grasp, but found by some to be stupid. Fair enough. I thought it was an effective visual representation of the change in Hal.

I don't think Teen Titans is at all bland. Nor is it conservative. Superboy wears jeans and a t-shirt! And there was that fun little Legion crossover and then when they went into the future and Robin had to fight himself as Batman, dude, that was pretty effin' cool.

Anyway, I just read about TPTB pulling Arrested Development so, you know, I don't give a fuck who likes what right now. There's Franklin to worry about. Priorities, people.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:14 / 10.11.05
I'm not going to write as much as Mister Six, but my take is that the best Johns Flash stories were well before Rogue War. I started reading Johns' Flash after the Cicada story arc (a new villain Johns created - he did create a bunch of new supervillains for his Flash run and most of them were not all that good, but you had to give the guy credit for creating a whole bunch of new villains - it seems that most superhero comics writers shy away from creating new villains or create 1 every 9 months or something at best).... Johns seemed to picking right up from Waid, channeling that "New Silver Age" sensibility that has been mentioned above. (one could also lump Kurt Busiek and Invincible writer/creator Robert Kirkman into this category - although Kirkman can turn in some pretty crappy stories too, for example his Captain America arc last year)

Johns wrote a highly entertaining Flash - sure, it was mainstream superhero comics but it was well-told mainstream superhero. I would say if Waid's run on Flash was a 9, Johns' was an 8 with occasional 7 issues. Johns really got the character of the Flash, bulked up the supporting cast (the supporting cast he created was much better than the villains he created IMO), and put a new spotlight on the Rogues. He fleshed out Captain Cold and all the classic Rogues, and made us (okay, maybe just me, Mister Six and Birdie) care more than we ever have about ol' Len Snart. I would say the Captain Cold Rogue Profile issue was the first issue were I said 'hmmm, this guy is onto something.'

His JSA was really terrific - had its off issues, and boring issues, certainly, but overall a very good book with characters that aren't the easiest to write. I particularly liked the idea of having Johnny Thunder die and then become part of the Thunderbolt spirit (from that point on the Thunderbolt was drawn as Johnny Thunder, suit, bowtie and all). And I defy anyone with a heart not to find his Christmas JSA issue of about 1 1/2 years back lots of fun...this is the issue where Ma Hunkle, the Red Tornado, makes her return playing Santa.

Johns did make a lot of the JSA characters and villains works back in a time where those characters were far from automatially cool or interesting to the average newer (or heck, even older) comic reader. (of course he built on the foundation laid by James Robinson who almost single-handedly made the JSA era heroes cool again during his STARMAN run, and of course Robinson co-wrote JSA for a while...I remember thinking 'aww, Robinson is co-writing with this no-name Geoff Johns dude, that's lame')

His Teen Titans run has also been very entertaining - as I think I said in earlier comments, he's certainly not reinventing the wheel in any of his work, but they're good superhero comics with solid characterization, similar to, say, Marv Wolfman's 80s New Teen Titans run Claremont's X-Men when it is was in its prime or just slightly under its prime. Of course, Wolfman and Claremont kind of made the mold and Johns just following in it, so that might not be an entirely appropo comparison.

But having Bart Allen, Impulse for a good 10 years or however long in real time, realize that he'd become a one-note joke character ("he's impulsive, he's cocky! he would always argue with Robin in Peter David's Young Justice! everyone's always telling him to slow down, stop being so rash, life isn't a video game like you were weaned on, etc.") and become the new Kid Flash to try and prove that he can grow, he can mature, he can be worthy of the Flash name and not just be a goof, was a great idea. (Now to be fair, maybe DC editorial came up with that one) The fact he overheard that other characters like Wally would occasionally think "Is this kid EVER gonna grow up?" made him have a rare introspective moment and do the cool trick of reading tons of books with super-speed to try to redefine himself and become more educated, was pretty cool, I thought.

And the new Teen Titans book, when written by Johns (Gail Simone is great but those Liefeld drawn issues just looked awful), has been solid superhero fun. Yes, I said FUN. Not Starfire getting raped, not gloom and doom. Not brilliant, not groundbreaking. It's been fun. The Changeling/Beast Boy story where his origins get explored and he turns into a green dinosaur to kick some new villain's butt - hardly Frank Miller or Alan Moore, but who said comics can't be fun? If it was a silver age or golden age story with superheroes turning into dinosaurs with decent, fun, but not deeply insightful dialogue, perhaps many here would be talking about how great such a story was.

I thought Rebirth was pretty solid, but I wasn't blown away by it. In fact, I wouldn't say I've been 'blown away' by anything Johns has written...just entertained. Like a better-than-average popcorn movie.

Oh, and the JSA/JLA graphic novel co-written by Johns and David Goyer, drawn by Carlos Pacheco, is terrific and even though it's co-written by Goyer, the Johns stamp is all over it. He's a fanboy who writes fun superhero stories and sometimes has some really nice characterization moments. That's why I think he's become successful.

Actually, Johns' output in the past half-year or so hasn't been as good as some of his earlier work, I thought. The last Teen Titans story I enjoyed was the 'dark future Titans' story (obviously a comics cliche, sure, but a. aren't most superhero comics repeating many well-known plots and devices anway, and b. it was done well). Mike McKone's terrific art sure didn't hurt either.

The end of his Flash run was pretty decent but not great, IMO. I also liked that he restored Wally's secret ID...and Johns has written a few good "Batman, stop being such a dick" scenes (one in Flash when Wally talks with Bats, and the more famous one in Rebirth). And come to think of it, the Flash issue where he teams up with Nightwing and talks about old times was really nicely done too. An issue focused on characterization, interesting scenes between two old friends with lots of comics history...and Gorilla Grodd. What's not to love?

In closing (damn, I said I wouldn't write much and look!), I see Johns as the comics equivalent of a movie I might see that's an action/adventure movie with most or all of the basic aspects of action/adventure movies, but slightly more well written than most. Entertaining, with maybe a few nice moments that surprise me or are better than average, and well executed all around. I'm not waving the "Geoff Johns is AMAZING" flag, I'm waving he "He's almost as good as Mark Waid and that's still pretty decent for superhero comics" flag. (not like I hold Waid up as the absolute gold standard, but he's creative and pretty reliable...man, Superman: Birthright was bad though)

So that's my two cents. And I certainly don't think my comments here will change anyone's mind about Geoff Johns, just thought I'd weigh in. I guess Johns is similar to Kurt Busiek's recent (well, 5 years ago or whenever it was) Avengers run - solid, entertaining, FUN superhero stories with decent writing, sometimes better than decent writing. Stories that entertain. Not quite Grant Morrison's JLA run, but still entertaining.

*whew*
 
 
FinderWolf
22:16 / 10.11.05
and talking about Morrison & Millar's co-written FLASH run of 12 issues (well, Millar wrote the final 3 issues himself with the pretty mediocre 'Black Flash' story, as in the harbinger of death flash not African-American flash) --- why hasn't DC put this in paperback??
 
 
FinderWolf
22:19 / 10.11.05
since I've mentioned Kurt Busiek when talking about Geoff Johns, I will say that I don't think Johns is capable of much more depth, whereas Busiek when he's on his game, is (see Astro City and the recent Stuart Immonen-drawn SUPERMAN: SECRET IDENTITY which was rather nice). I think decently-written superhero comics with a cool idea and good character moment here and there is pretty much all Johns has in the bag of tricks.
 
 
LDones
22:57 / 10.11.05
Winick's Batman is insanely stupid. As someone who was interested in the Jason Toddy bits and enjoyed Doug Mahnke's art a great deal, I was picking up their first few Batman issues.

I'll admit that Black Mask can be amusing as a quipping business-minded sociopath with a skull for a head, but Winick has written Batman as a whiny, tantrum-throwing, constantly-stating-the-obvious brat in tights.

I believe Winick does what he thinks is important for fiction - he's trying to make a superpowered character believeable and understandable, so that the average reader can relate with the goings on in each issue - but his own emotional landscape must be deliriously teenaged to think this is interesting or understandable.

Batman flies out to some remote location just to guilt-trip Zatanna even though he doesn't know why, Batman talks to Green Arrow, who cannot understand why Batman is acting like a dick, and after being confronted about it, makes some gloriously adolescent accusation with the words "It must've been something *YOU* did to *ME*." And then he flies off.

The man takes pages to make the simplest of emotional points, drags out sequences, and seems hellbent at every turn on making the point that all his protagonists have crippling emotional insecurities on par with your average high-school kid.

I made great effort to sway this notion out of my head as I read his issues, but it's as if he's getting his revenge on comics by making Batman into a moron.

I feel like Mike Allred is seizing Judd Winick by the face and speaking directly to him when the Riddler in Allred's Solo issue goes on about people wanting to be like Batman and hating him because they can't, forever wanting to chip away at him and drag him down into the muck where they are.


Mister Six, I have to say that I think you're taking people's criticisms of writers they abhor a bit like personal attacks upon you because you enjoy their work.

Barbelith has a large contingency of comics readers who are extremely critical of superhero fare. It's not a bad thing. I don't think it's entirely bizarre to want to ask what others see in a writer when that writer is extremely popular and yet seems to be a complete hack to one's sensibilities. The critical discussion of art hinges on the notion that the participants are capable of objective reasoning and engagement with other differing participants, so it's natural to want to ask a question when you want to understand.

I'd *love* to understand why JSA has been such a hugely popular book when it bores me to tears, on the stand or reading through trades. Johns' characters all seem like the most banal kind of illusory-infallible Angry Dad types with inflexible-for-convenience personalities.

On Preview, well put, FinderWolf (Although you are insane for thinking Superman: Birthright is bad and I hate you and curse your family for saying so). I don't know that it advances my own understanding of Johns' popularity much, as it sounds to my mind that people enjoy Johns if they aren't particularly critical of him and enjoy his subject matter, but you're even-keeled and took the time to genuinely communicate on the subject calmly, which I admire.

The subject of "popcorn" in comic books isn't party to much consensus as compared to, say, movies, where enjoying a shitty-but-fun piece of capable hackwork is completely normal and without shame. My words reveal where I stand on Johns, certainly, but it's a topic worth discussing...

What's hackwork in comics? Is hackwork ever really clear or definable, beyond the subjective opinion that genre cliches/tropes are employed in copious amounts without acknowledgement? Where does silly populist work end and become boring self-indulgent drivel? (Loeb's Hush comes to mind, and even Miller's All-Star Batman, really)
 
 
Aertho
00:02 / 11.11.05
So, in summary, Geoff Johns makes superhero comics in a fashion that reconciles trend expectations and stable characterization? He's a bit like entropy then.
 
 
Ganesh
00:09 / 11.11.05
'Workmanlike'?
 
 
eddie thirteen
02:48 / 11.11.05
I'm still stuck on "competant." It's COMPETENT, yo. One of the words that, when misspelled, has a tendency to kinda undermine accusations of, y'know, incompetence.

I haven't read the Outsiders comic, so I don't know if it's really as puerile as it looks. But I DO know I can almost see Shimmer's boobie!!
 
 
gridley
03:02 / 11.11.05
(warning: geek rant)

So I used to think Geoff Johns was ok. It helped that James Robinson was kind of his mentor. And I liked his attention in the JSA, but in the last issue of Teen Titans, he pissed me off.

In the last issue of Teen Titans (#29) he had Gar Logan (aka Beast Boy, aka Changeling) making a lighthearted joke about superheroes that died and came back. Fair enough, I can stand that sort of meta-humor. But one of the heroes he harps on is Elasti-Girl. "You know.. that girl from the Doom Patrol. I can't remember if she died or not?"

How could Mr. Continuity not know that Elasti-Girl was Gar's adopted mother? There's no way he's gonna be chuckling about not being sure whether his mom died....

It's just laziness, but it really bothered me.
 
 
John Octave
04:27 / 11.11.05
It's 'cos John Byrne's revamped Doom Patrol, so all the Beast Boy-Doom Patrol connections have been retconned out of existence. I'm sure that line was very deliberate.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:57 / 11.11.05
'Workmanlike'?

That fits for me. Johns seems like a writer who has one really good series, and on most everything else he writes, he's filling pages. There have been a LOT of "hot writers" through comics who have been like that. Marv Wolfman's Tomb of Dracula was great, but name another series he did at Marvel that has stood up to be read 30 years later...and he was Marvel's head writer for a while. Same with Mike Baron, who was brilliant on Nexus, fun o Badger and bland as paste on everything else.

I think that I'm upset that the Big Event at DC seems to be so unforcused and poorly plotted. We have no clue how all fo these "big events" are connected (if at all), tie ins are showing up everywhere but they don't tell us any more of the story, and Big Things seem to be shoved to the side for another scene recapping everything.

There's a big difference between someone yelling at you that something is a big deal, and when you decide for yourself that it is a big deal.
 
 
Mario
10:37 / 11.11.05
Earlier, I mentioned Winick "drinking ther water at Marvel". And that was mostly meant in jest. Mostly. But working for Marvel has a weird affect on some people...look at Bendis.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
11:18 / 11.11.05
LDones, show me as critical discussion.

I'm not taking anything personal, I'm just so tired of seeing endless 'this sucks... but I don't read it' or just general po-faced dislike of a large group of comics nonsense on these boards filling up space.

I'm just no good at taking it in stride like others do such as Benjamin. His blood pressure must be better than mine.

Why oh why is it so hard to get a genuine discussion going on here? Including differing opnions, I mean. It's terribly common for a poster to enter a thread and clutter it up with 'this sucks and it's all you fan boys lapping it up' without realizing they sound like old men whining about how great comics used to be or just leave a steaming dump of a comment while others are attempting an actual discussion. For instance I just spent ages answering a question posed with no interest to understand the answer and was followed with a post summarizing my words incorrectly.

Is that 'critical discussion'???
 
 
LDones
12:12 / 11.11.05
Asking honest questions and offering honest observations is a part of critical discussion. If you're referring to me asking questions I have no interest in the answers for, I didn't ask you a question specifically, only offered my opinion on what I was observing in the thread. I did ask for opinions on what defines hackwork in comics, if it is definable, and that's most certainly a subject I have some interest in discussing.

I would define the majority of what I've read of Johns' and particularly Winick's DC work as derivative and lacking innovation/originality of its own. They seem to rely on established images of the importance of/reverence to their characters without reinforcing on their own why the reader should care - and yet they put new spins of odd emotional stuffiness into the mix as if it's something compelling to elevate the material. It's Hal Jordan acting spiritually moved by the motto of a modern sports franchise in Rebirth. It's Batman refusing to use contractions and feigning conviction over the rightness of his detective beliefs and then pouting in his cave the next night; or waving his cape around like Dracula and hiding from the bright light of Hal Jordan's religious might.

FinderWolf, who has been accused in the past by some of being uncritical, is most definitely participating smashingly in critical discussion by attempting to explain his attraction to these writers and/or their methods to people who are not predisposed to understand.

Accusing Petey or Flux or others of empty snobbery from the outset does nothing to further a discussion. I can see that you believe they have no interest in genuinely understanding or even discussing the matter at hand, and probably regard them as uppity forum snarks for all I know, but why not try to engage people on Barbelith who you don't already have a negative opinion of? People who may not be predisposed to seeing the merit of these writers, but who may certainly be willing and even eager to participate in honest conversation on the subject.

Anyway, Finder makes a point that I can relate to, and I'm curious if you or others agree - if I understand correctly, he enjoys the tropes and conventions of superhero work and appreciates writers who may not be innovative, but that he feels have appreciation for the material and are not too hackish by his standards. I understand this, and so could many others.

Is this in any way parallel to your own opinions of Johns' work? Is it a worthwhile way to engage an artform? Do you or others look at JSA as a Top-Tier comic book of real quality and worthy of interest? Why? I've said part of why I don't, I'm curious to hear differing opinions, if others are likewise interested in the topic at hand.

I'm interested in the discussion that's already underway, even though I also don't feel we each should have to validate our interest in this thread so you don't feel threatened by the prospect of real or imagined antagonism or snobbery.
 
  

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