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Papess
15:59 / 20.06.07
*sigh*
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:11 / 20.06.07
Sorry, to be clear - I am in no sense downplaying the right of people to seek employment as strippers, burlesque artistes, erotic or exotic dancers or similar. Nor am I making moral judgements about the profession.

I am, however, not convinced that one can say:

And I honestly have no problem with people (of whatever race, gender, or sex orientation) hiring other people (also of whatever race, gender, or sex orientation ) to strip for them. The fact the stripper was black and poor and her clients were white and rich should have no bearing in the case.

And ignore that, as it stands, our hypothetical stripper is statistically far more likely to be a woman, and to be a woman of relatively limited means, stripping for an audience of wealthier men, and that the law is sometimes rather lax both in protecting those not-so-well-off women in the first place, and in pursuing cases when those women have been assaulted, sexually or otherwise.
 
 
Papess
16:19 / 20.06.07
Indeed, Haus.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
16:59 / 20.06.07
You know on a rollercoaster when you reach the apex of a curve and you hear that clicking sound just before you go whooshing downwards, ever downwards at incredible speed? The Ron Paul thread is making that noise.
Who'dve thought starting a thread about an anti-abortion racist Republican presidential candidate (and disciple of Von Mises) would have ended up like this?
 
 
*
17:20 / 20.06.07
Oh, thank God, Bill Cosby can speak for all Black people. I was wondering how I could get in touch with them easily to apologize for being white, so I could alleviate the terrible, painful white guilt which makes life so difficult for me. It's so good to know that although feminism, as we know, has a huge impact in the schemes of Black strippers, their manhating machinations can be foiled by a timely application of of of I can't go on like this.
 
 
grant
17:23 / 20.06.07
I really, really want to delete that post, and possibly the whole bit of the discussion leading up to it.

This is annoying me, because I can't.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
17:27 / 20.06.07
Pepper's, I would say that the thread is already in the crash position.

I didn't realise that the topic starter had previous form on Barbelith until I read the particular section of the Feminism 101 thread linked to... my flaming Christ.

Black people can't get jobs because they refuse to stop dressing and talking funny?

And I thought *I* was too short to get on the Switchboard ride.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:33 / 20.06.07
Is it just me? If you find that "every time I post on this board people have a go at me", shouldn't the solution be really fucking obvious?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:35 / 20.06.07
See also Dead Megatron and Mathlete.
 
 
Quantum
18:00 / 20.06.07
So, is it too soon to talk about banning? Today I'm annoyed that we don't have an explicit left wing bias (from the US p.o.v) so we could ban out of hand rape apologists, covert racists and similar asshats. Even if we had an instaban button we'd feel obliged to treat people sensitively when what almost everyone wants is for them to just go away, can't we agree an outright bias toward inclusive bleeding heart liberal politics and be done with it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:09 / 20.06.07
I actually just asked exactly that question in the Feminism 101 thread... but I don't see it as about a liberal bias. I see it as a not-making-people-who-have-been-sexually-assaulted- feel-like-they-are-going-to-be-told-that-they-are-making -it-up-to-gain-power-over-men bias.
 
 
Quantum
18:17 / 20.06.07
Policy then?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:29 / 20.06.07
The charmer has now announced that from now on he's going to address Haus as Small, Petty Haus (cutting and pasting or typing it all out each time, I wonder?), so I'd go for it.
 
 
Quantum
18:33 / 20.06.07
OK, I've started a generic banning discussion thread, as a repository for all those times you've *almost* started a banning thread but refrained. Kinda like a yellow card thread, where we can discuss whether or not it's jumping the gun.
Of course, in this case it may be best just to send the request to Tom now, by the time he acts the evidence will be there I'm sure.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:50 / 20.06.07
Not to defend any of the opinions expressed by Qwik in the recent debacle, but it wouldn't it be better if those board members who don't expect the world to become a smouldering ruin at some point during the next hundred years at least tried to discuss the issues concerned in a calm and rational, if bitingly, quietly, or morbidbly sarcastic (according to taste) manner?

If we're simply going to ban people because they come out with questionable material, which is then attacked by every single board member who can be bothered to respond; if that sort of post seems like a sufficient threat to the body politic that a lone random character ought to be banned, then in what sense is this place any different to Byrne Robotics?

As it is, I guess Qwik will leave this site with the impression that teh liberals are all PC fascists and so on, which is in nobody's interest - what happens if he becomes president one day?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:58 / 20.06.07
Yeah, maybe we should all just smoke a bowl and calm down. Maybe this painful bile-swallowing struggle to choke back the rage so as to better piss away long hours attempting rational engagemnt with someone who blatantly doesn't give a fuck about the people he's injuring will be the one that gets through, eh?

Or--or! we can airlock the fucker and write about something worthwhile instead.
 
 
Ticker
19:18 / 20.06.07
I'd rather save my communication efforts for someone who was willing to be civil while we engaged in debating the topic at hand. Different opinions can be expressed without insulting everyone and causing eyebleed. It seems incredibly hard to manage but if one is going to challenge the collective/groupthink/opinion one should be prepared to offer solid data and a civil approach.
 
 
*
19:43 / 20.06.07
AG, it's of interest to me how often you take the role of the voice of calm and reason when someone comes out with crap that's harmful to posters on the board.

First, why should we care if Qwik thinks we're humorless banhappy bastards? Qwik thinks a lot of things that are even more wildly variant from reality.

Second, why should it be the burden of people who have variously been told that racism is their fault, that women who cry rape are a pervasive ill in society, that white people who don't believe that Black people are to blame for racism are the victims of disgust at their own whiteness—why should it be our burden to show Qwik ten thousand times the consideration he's shown anyone else?

Third, for that matter, why is it always the target of hatred who is asked to not be hateful? Why can not the person who is spewing the hatred be told to stop being hateful or go away? Is this position really that radical?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
19:54 / 20.06.07
The use of ancient board names that no longer display under "prev." is confusing as hell.
 
 
Feverfew
19:55 / 20.06.07
But then you would say that, Vines McBundle.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
20:44 / 20.06.07
Blast it I am trying to PUT VINES BEHIND ME.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:53 / 20.06.07
AG, it's of interest to me how often you take the role of the voice of calm and reason when someone comes out with crap that's harmful to posters on the board.

I do know what you mean.

I suppose I'd question on what level a series of ill-mannered posts can be said to be any more hard-edged or disturbing, harmful, in that sense, than what's routinely on the telly, or in the papers. While I entirely agree with the idea of Barbelith as a space, safe or otherwise, in which it's not acceptable to roll up with a list of ugly, specificied issues to do with the usual, it still seems a bit pointless to sort of go 'la-la-la, you'll be hammered into oblivion, you tentacled monster.'

I suppose I still think these characters can be saved.

I used to vote Conservative until I read 'Naked Lunch' so if I'm (arguably) someone who might end up considering Kenneth Grant's work from a Docklands perspective.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:10 / 20.06.07
I suppose I still think these characters can be saved.

It's a message board, not an Air Ambulance helicopter.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
21:19 / 20.06.07
AG, having now read the posts in question, fuck that. Even if there's a 'chance' of someone being saved, I don't think that the possibility of converting a bigot outweighs the right of people on the board not to be caused emotional distress in the process of that happening.

And maybe, just maybe, the fact that this shit is in the papers and TV and all over society is a damn good reason for it not to be allowed on here.

I think there's a very strong argument that people should be able to escape some of that on Barbelith, rather than just have it brought onto here as well.

While not wanting to appear like I'm directly comparing forms of bigotry, it's my view that we shouldn't have to tolerate this for the same reason that Barbelith doesn't tolerate Holocaust denial.

Neither are rational, reasonable or valid positions. Neither deserve to be treated as legitimate arguments and given the relative respect that debating them would give.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:40 / 20.06.07
Tell you what, AG - why not take the time you spend telling everyone else that they should be kinder to the bigots and spend it engaging with them yourself? With your gentle charm and grandmotherly mannner, lead them slowly but gently into the path of righteousness. That way, everyone is happy, surely?

I WILL BUY YOU A PINT THE NEXT TIME YOU ARE IN LONDON IF YOU DO.
 
 
Princess
21:40 / 20.06.07
The Barbelith Ambulance has now been invented. It is an offboard space for banned people who wish to engage in conversation with Barbelith people.

Yes, we should be fighting prejudice and convincing bigots.
Yes, we should be trying to create a safe world as well as individual safe spaces.
But no, it shouldn't be here.

If people are causing regular eyestab then they should be gone. Those who wish to save people and engage with awfulness (or if you just want to spout horric shit)can register for a Facebook account and do so here.


This is, obviously, just an experiment. But if sating our consciences (re: abandoning the stupid to themselves) in this small way will mean quicker banning then I think it could be worth tring.
 
 
*
21:41 / 20.06.07
I can see the attraction of thinking of ourselves, the barbelsane, as people who can "save" others who spew hatred from their own hatred. The way to do that is not to strive to protect them from the consequences of that hatred, I think.
 
 
Princess
21:54 / 20.06.07
I think some people's concern (sometimes me, sometimes not) is that banning just reaffirms to the bannee that all feminists/non Klan mambers/ whatever are just bad people causing a fuss to put others out.

Like, banning protects us from them but it also protects them from us. I though having a Barbelith but not Barbelith, which would allowed to be frankly disgusting for the sake of brainwashing purposes, would manage to keep the shit away without people feeling guilty and making long defenses of unpleasant posters.

I just want to make banning quicker really.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:57 / 20.06.07
Problems I see with this:

a) This being facebook, anyone wanting to play will likely be revelaing their full and real name to trolls. This is inordinatgely unwise.

b) Also, the names of all your friends.

c) It's not really a project I'd want Barbelith branding to apply to. A bigotry sump? For better or worse, Barbelith is its collected membership. A group of people who don't mind opening their personal profiles up to people who already bear animus against the community they are purporting to represent is not Barbelith - it's masochlith, possibly.

d) I don't think this will speed up the banning process.

e) What we really don't want to do is set up a social site for Barbelith trolls to meet and network.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:05 / 21.06.07
No, I think the barbelith ambulance = a bad, bad idea. Lovely in intent, but destined to founder on the rocks of fuckwitry.

why not take the time you [AG] spend telling everyone else that they should be kinder to the bigots and spend it engaging with them yourself?

Or, given that there are tiny planarian worms less than a micron in length living in the mud at the bottom of a pond that you evidently give more of a shit about than feminism, maybe you could just stay out of threads on the topic if all they're going to do is raise your blood-pressure?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
06:40 / 21.06.07
It's a message board, not an Air Ambulance helicopter

It's a rescue mission though, all the same, isn't it?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:56 / 21.06.07
Is it?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:24 / 21.06.07
"rescue mission" is a little dramatic, a little to close to the Invisibles, from which I believe we're trying to move away (was AG being serious there, by the way?) But helping people when we have the chance (and are in fact able to do so) is something Barbelith embraces, isn't it?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:30 / 21.06.07
Maybe you could just stay out of threads on the topic if all they're going to do is raise your blood-pressure?

Sure.

The old ticker, frankly, is racing a bit at the moment, because my ideas have been questioned, plus there's this sort of nagging, tingling feeling in my left arm.

Maybe I should have a brief lie-down?
 
 
illmatic
07:31 / 21.06.07
But helping people when we have the chance (and are in fact able to do so) is something Barbelith embraces, isn't it?

Well, if that means, for instance, trying to organise a collection for a cause we carried about, or sharing of information and resources, then yes. If it means have an exhausing debate with someone who's a fuckwit, and seems dedicated to clinging to their fuckwitttery, no matter what, then no.
 
  

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