BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


I don't think there's an escape from mankind's existential-nihilist fix

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
05:15 / 20.04.05
I'm serious BTW. This is not "Ha ha, walk a very lot--so then you don't be here, ha ha!" I really think you should start walking long distances. I think it would be good for you. It's one of the most magical things you can do.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:53 / 20.04.05
You also drop in the BPD label

I think Sypha would be better off if he invests some time in the BDP label:

 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:39 / 20.04.05
as for the temple, why do experienced and brilliant people like gypsy (who is singled out in admiration, i assure all) have to be such assholes? arent they interested in helping schmucks like me improve ourselves?

Go and suck a fisherman's cock, Sherman. Over the years I've written bastard pages of advice and made offers of direct magical assistance to help Sypha out, which have more or less been ignored. I was prepared to make up gris gris bags for him, consult the oracle on his behalf, and help him devise a little course of practical magical gear that would help him tackle the various problems that seem to be troubling him. My only clause was that, if I was going to make an investment of my valuable and limited time, he actually do the work and not make excuses. He wasn't interested.

My above commments, whilst admittedly mean spirited, are born out of exasperation at not being able to get through to someone. I don't believe that Sypha is really interested in engaging with the problems he writes about at length. I think he just likes to write about them and fish for sympathy. This infuriates me hugely, because I don't like seeing someone holding themselves back with imagined problems that are seemingly making them feel very unhappy and disempowered. For me, magic is a science for attempting to overcome and engage with such obstacles, and to see someone studiously avoid doing anything of the sort - whilst professing to be a magician - makes me see red a bit sometimes.

Last year I was writing a fucking lesson in magic a week, every fucking Monday, for the cosmic fireman.

What the fuck have you done, apart from bitch?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:53 / 20.04.05
I love it when you talk dirty, Gypsy.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:53 / 20.04.05
I won't elaborate on my company line policy but I will say that there seem to be certain notions that there's a "proper" way to do magic (or how to think about magic) and I don't agree.

But you don't actually seem to do any magic, Sypha. You appear to read about it, speculate on it, and write up that speculation - but you don't seem to actually live it to any extent. It shows. Your refusal to try and even begin to tackle any of your problems is a big giveaway, but it's in practically every word you write on the subject. Someone who genuinely knows what they are talking about tends to stand out a mile on barbelith, or anywhere. You can't fake it, anymore than you can fake it in places like the headshop or a boxing ring.

I have respect for people who can write engagingly about magic based on their own personal experience. It's as simple as that. I don't value the opinions of people who are obviously just speculating based on some books that they've read and a few nervous dabblings here and there. I don't really give a toss what you think about magic, I'm interested in what you experientially know about it. Which, at the moment, I don't think is very much.

I can sometimes be quite forceful and aggressive in forwarding my own perspectives and views on magic. I do this because I think there is a pernicious tendency within the occult community to treat inherited assumptions and untested 'cool ideas' as occult facts - a pitfall that's as rife within chaos magic as it was in theosophy. My own experiences of magic have been wildly divergent and often directly contradictory to... what you might call... the "company line" of chaos magic and contemporary western practice. I really don't agree with a lot of it, and I'm interested in questioning those things and attempting to communicate my alternative perspectives as clearly as I can to other magicians who may be interested.

Barbelith provides a climate in which I can do this. It's really one of the only places that I've come across where this sort of informed and intelligent critical debate about magic, and related areas, actually takes place and is welcomed. When I dip my toe into the wider world of occult message forums it really just feels like a big playpen of people saying: "Yay! Chaos Magic! Sigils! Thelema! The left hand path! How cool and bad ass are we! Aren't we great!"

I'm not interested in that. I want to participate in challenging debate with other magicians who know their stuff, live it, and can write engagingly about it. I'm getting that increasingly less out of barbelith.

I don't really understand what you want, Sypha. This sense of an imposed "proper" way to do magic that you're complaining about, if it exists at all, is just the converging opinions of a group of people whose personal experiences have proven broadly similar. If you have had direct experiences that contradict the flow of a debate, then it is your role to forward and promote your own informed understanding and insights. This is all that me or anyone else here is doing.

I mean, my confrontational ideas about magic are a tiny minority in the face of practically everyone else writing on the fucking subject of it. But I feel strongly and passionately about my perspectives to the extent that I'm prepared to challenge all of that.

If you strongly disagree with anything I write, and have a good basis for an argument based on your own personal experience - not uninformed and untested speculation - then engage with me. Argue your case. Make me change my mind.
Otherwise, you're effectively asking me to censor my own opinions on magic in the only forum I have for airing and discussing them, just to bolster your ego.

I'm not about to do that.
 
 
Ganesh
10:21 / 20.04.05
And I'd hardly classify the seed that spawned this thread as great "writing".

I didn't comment on the "greatness" of your writing; I commented on the quantity, and contrasted this with your claims that a) you're in "too much pain" to write (bollocks), and b) you genuinely didn't want people to respond to your initial post (bollocks).

Increasingly, you're coming across as a waster of time - your own and other people's. I'm not going to offer any more advice because you don't need (and very probably aren't interested in) advice; you need to get off your arse and act on it.
 
 
Liger Null
10:38 / 20.04.05
I know this is tread-rottery but can anybody PM me to let me know what exactly it was that sherman wrote that was so horrible that it actually had to be edited?

I don't want to fan the flames but my curiousity is killing me.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:55 / 20.04.05
I can't remember it exactly but I'll try to.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:03 / 20.04.05
By the way, if anyone else is wondering about the contents of sherman's post he managed to fit racism, misogyny and homophobia in to one short sentence.
 
 
illmatic
13:20 / 20.04.05
I think in Gypsy's and Ganesh's posts, you've got everything that people find frustrating and irritating about you, Sypha, all in one handy place should you ever forget it. Basically, you're overdrawn at the sympathy bank and no more credit will be extended.

I also sent you some advice on some exercises which I think you did erm, once, before giving up. Now, I'm not saying because I've written you an email out of my great benevolence you should bow down and start basing your life on my suggestions, but attempting them with such a minimal level of engagement, kind of well, gets my goat really. If you genuinely find those exercises too challenging/scary/boring/depressing then well, fair enough, and as I've said to you via PM I hope you find the resources elsewhere to help you out - but all this adds evidence to the perception that you don't really want to DO magick and change, you just want to imagine it and write about it. Now, creativity and magic are closely linked, and I'd never encourage anyone not to engage with their creative side, but but if it's the only form of magickal endeavour you feel comfortable with, then I think you have a very limited view - ESPECIALLY bearing in mind the multiple threads abotu your problems. I wouldn't give a flying fuck if you were just the average Barbeloid wootling on life's hardships, but to claim to be a magican and they be so monumentually ineffectual in even addressing your own very real concerns (never mind sorting them out) - big contradiction, mate.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 20.04.05
"Why bother writing anyway, in a hundred years no one will really care"

If it helps, a lot of people don't care right about now. It's not a matter of cosmic import whether you write something or not; to be honest, it sounds to me like there are things you might profitably attempt to address before worrying about writing the great whatever. There's no need to feel pressured. Certainly, the clock isn't exactly ticking down - E Annie Proulx didn't get published until very late in life, and she is one of the most powerful mages alive.
 
 
Seth
17:57 / 20.04.05
What do I expect to get from Barbelith?

Thanks for the answer you gave and that's not the question I asked.

What do you want from Barbelith, Sypha?
 
 
Papess
21:07 / 20.04.05
I agree with the walking bit.

I have no clue what the rest of the thread is about and for that, I am glad.
 
 
--
01:35 / 21.04.05
I was originally planning on individually PMing the people in question who had asked questions of me to avoid yet another long reply (sometimes I wish people would just ask me "boxers" or "briefs?") but of course then it could be said that I'm just trying to avoid public discourse. With that in mind:

Gypsy, you say you've written me pages of advice, and maybe you have and I just never noticed, though I do recall some comments you made to me regarding the popular idea of illumination... I forget what thread it was but the topic was about magical insight derived from non-occultists. Other then that I didn't really notice your comments to me until the afore-mentioned gris-gris offer you just mentioned. You forgot to say that the clause also stated that, should one break the contract, one would be horribly and fatally cursed. So my not taking the offer was less me not being interested but more me being scared witless! Also you gave almost no details, at all, about the nature of the contract in question, and for all I know the contract could have called for me to do something way out of my boundaries, and then where would I be? For a newbie such as myself, it's not surprising I didn't take up your offer, though as I recall I thanked you for making it anyway, so it's not like I wasn't grateful...

While I admit I haven't made drastic strides I would say that I have tackled some problems (as anyone who has been following my livejournal can plainly see). Getting over my fear of working full-time was a big step, as was getting up the courage to speak to someone I was attracted to (even though it went nowhere). I've even begun making conversation at work rather then wait for people to strike up conversations with me. This might not seem like a great deal to anyone else but you would not believe the willpower I had to build up to accomplish even these ordinary tasks. So I don't think one can just say that I've made no progress dealing with my "demons", as it were. Granted I'm willing to agree that there is a probability that some of my problems may be imaginary, but some of them, mostly my physical issues, are very real. THOSE are what's keeping me back, but I'm still undecided if they're messing up my head or if my head is messing up my body.

Liquid, I've recently come to realize that I'm perhaps less interested in doing magic and more interested and reading about it, thinking about it, even writing about it. For all I know, everything I've read in every occult book is totally false, that the authors were just all bullshitting, but still, that doesn't detract from the enjoyment of reading them. I think I've only been playing pretend the last 3 + years, fantasizing that I was a magician and living in the glamour and the mystery, but there were certain aspects of it I just wasn't able to handle and I knew that following this path too far would lead to misery (too many young magicians don't know their limits and frequently do rash acts that they simply aren't mentally ready for). I'll admit it, I realize the importance of change but all the same, I hate it. I don't like the entire process, in fact. I'll put things off as long as I can to avoid it. Some of this is laziness, some of it fear of the unknown. For example, I worked the same shitty part-time job for seven years before I finally went full-time, I spent years using the same shitty computer before finally getting a new one... I don't adapt to new environments well. I'll do it if I have to, but I won't like doing it, even if the end result isn't all that bad as I feared (my full-time job, while taxing, is still a vast improvement over my old job, and I already don't know how I ever lived without my new computer (it can even play DVDs!) So I'm flexible enough to change but it takes me awhile to get motivated, usually because I'm so tired. Stubborness runs in my family, alas. And it seems that every occult book I've ever read and every occultist I've ever talked to seems to be of the opinion that one should embrace change and welcome the unknown. So in that aspect I'd say that no, I'm not a magician, and I currently do not identify as one, which is why I'm avoiding the Temple for the time being (you never know, I might change my mind again if I ever find a spine). BTW I did try the exercises you recommended a few more times but I wasn't happy with the results and I got interested in something else so I eventually dropped them. Maybe I was doing them wrong, or perhaps I wasn't taking it far enough... Certainly worries about loss of bowel control probably made me a little less enthusiastic about really going the extra-distance.

Seth: I currently don't know what I want from Barbelith so I am unable to answer your question. I will get in touch with you when I come to a conclusion.

Look, this thread was a lapse. In general it's only the second or third such thread I've posted in "Conversation" and, while I admit I have had a few similiar threads in Temple, I haven't been as bad lately, in fact my last real bad outburst was way back in last May. That's not all that much drama, wouldn't you agree? I appreciate your advice, I really do, and in general I'm in agreement with what you have to say and am glad you have said it. If I was smart I'd just post this last paragraph, but people ask a lot of questions and I feel obliged to answer to my best abilities. I'm sorry if it wastes your time... If it's that much of a time-waster, just don't read it! From now on I will try to confine my angst to my blog, however, so situations like this won't occur in the future.
 
 
Ganesh
09:01 / 21.04.05
If it's that much of a time-waster, just don't read it!

Don't. Write. It. The writing is a substitute for doing.

Do.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:07 / 21.04.05
Gypsy, you say you've written me pages of advice, and maybe you have and I just never noticed

Figures. I must have posted loads of stuff in these stupid threads of yours over the years, along with half of barbelith. As the I Ching might put it:

Sypha types on the internet,
The multitude offers a branch,
Sypha types more on the internet,
No change.

You forgot to say that the clause also stated that, should one break the contract, one would be horribly and fatally cursed.

As I said, my only clause was that you not make any excuses about doing your side of things, if I was going to invest time in helping you out. I felt I had to adopt a ridiculous carrot and stick approach to get you to actually do something, and that's why I made it explicit that there would be consequences if you accepted this offer and then started dicking me about. I'm fairly sure that without that understanding in place, all that would have actually happened is that my inbox would be quickly filled with lengthy self-indulgent excuses as to why activities such as lighting a candle, walking around outside, sitting still for five minutes, etc were completely beyond your capability to do.

Also you gave almost no details, at all, about the nature of the contract in question, and for all I know the contract could have called for me to do something way out of my boundaries, and then where would I be?

Well you would have been put on the spot and forced to move through a couple of your perceived boundaries for a start...

I wanted to see if you were prepared to make a step into the unknown, which is a pretty fucking integral quality for a magician. If you could make that step, then it would show you had a bit of spirit to you and were genuinely prepared to take risks in order to make positive change. If you had done that, then I would have been more than happy to have given you my full magical support in whatever it was you felt you needed to resolve in order to be happier, healthier and in control of your life.

A harsh strategy, yeah. But if magic doesn't test you, put you into dangerous and unfamiliar territory, move you way beyond the boundaries of what you thought you were capable of, and generally force you to change and develop new and more capable, functional and dynamic qualities to your personality - then it's not magic, as I recognise it. You seem to want magic to be something nice and safe and comfortable that you can keep in a box and play with to feed your ego every now and again. It's not like a box of lego. It's more like a box of psychic alien spiders.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:23 / 21.04.05
A box of psychic alien spiders with lizards and hairy proboscis that play tricks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:26 / 21.04.05
If you can't make those out of lego, your NLP is _weak_.
 
 
illmatic
11:37 / 21.04.05
BTW I did try the exercises you recommended a few more times but I wasn't happy with the results and I got interested in something else so I eventually dropped them. Maybe I was doing them wrong, or perhaps I wasn't taking it far enough... Certainly worries about loss of bowel control probably made me a little less enthusiastic about really going the extra-distance.

Interesting. (The exercises in question are the Wilhelm Reich inspired routines in Chris Hyatt's "Undoing Yourself" if anyone's interested). Re. loss of bowel control, Reich and other therapists actually mention this reaction and (ie. fear of breaking one's back) in case studies of their own patients. I've actually encountered someone else with a similar fear to yours. To me, this confirms the validity of Reich's original model re, the way in which we "armour" ourselves. It shows he's talking about a tragically very real and widespread biological process.

None of those fears will actually happen, it just shows how rigid and incapable of handling spontaneous body movement people are. This isn't implying any blame on you, btw, because the process of forming armouring is something that is unconscious and involuntary and normally happens when we are very young. What you experienced is bascially a rationalisation, a defence against the uncomfortable and difficult feelings that arise when you brush up against your armour and tension.

As to doing them wrong/not going far enough - I think you really have to sit inside a set of exercises and get to know them, own them, before you can make that comment. 6 months or so, minimum. I think a magican should be willing to apply that kind of bloody minded tenacity to any set of exercises he tries. That ability to STICK WITH IT - I do appreciate that these exercises do take you into uncomfortable areas - but hey, that's why they're so damn GOOD.
 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
  
Add Your Reply