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7 Soldiers: Klarion, the Witch-Boy

 
  

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yawn - thing's buddy
10:01 / 22.04.05
shut it kovacs.

please?

fuckin strange comic! big on atmosphere eh? grant's bossin' the show just now, nae doubt.

good to see consistent solid artwork for each title too.

GM and the 'artist who colours too' build a convincing, odd-world here, in about 3 or 4 pages.

well done.

ho garden's roundup

: some of my comic-friends are saying Seven Soldiers is better than Judgement Day by allan mooore. i say to them now;

judement day was first.

alsso while i'm here, kovacs, moore has written clever books too - voice of fire has over 7000 pages - i think.

so comic people are as clever as book writers. you have proof now.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:13 / 22.04.05
shut it kovacs.

please?


Seriously, I thought there were some guidelines, if not rules, about basic etiquette on Barbelith? I say something beyond "sqeeeeeeeeeeeal I just joycreamed my pants about the gaycore art" and it's unbearably pretentious so I should shut it? Good luck with your comics discussion board if discussion about comics is unacceptable.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:37 / 22.04.05
I say something beyond "sqeeeeeeeeeeeal I just joycreamed my pants about the gaycore art"

Don't be a prick. What the fuck is 'gaycore'?
 
 
Bed Head
10:53 / 22.04.05
Kovacs’ idea of what recent barbelith discussions have been like, for reference.

I have had a couple of decent arguments (though the place is so policed I was harangued for taking a thread supposedly off-topic for three posts) but there is a great deal of

quote:woooh just got this from my friendly neighbourhood dealer and I just creamed myself at this Grant goodness! well done George [long, long-running joke to substitute real name with anything else beginning with G] and Cam [the artist, who also posts on the forum and whom you can't, therefore, ever really criticise] your work is really coming along in leaps and bounds! I wept on the train! 'Home Me Soon!' Cry! next: more Kirby-fun-delia! Could this month be any more joycore?

Some of the discussion on other forums (eg. about cyber-gender-identity, etc) is no doubt more high-brow, because I couldn't scroll thru it without brainache.


I think we should all start comparing Klarion The Witch Boy with Phillip Roth novels immediately. That isn’t a fucking strange comparison, not at all. It takes someone with a PhD in comics to read these texts with such sensitivity and insight.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:21 / 22.04.05
Mm. Stupid people tend to be stupid in dull, predictable ways, but for really hilarious stupidity, there's nothing like watching a genuinely clever person over-reach.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:30 / 22.04.05
it doesn't seem long ago that people were saying you could expect more from a comic book, even a superhero one -- that superhero comic books could give us meat, could be on the level of "literature".

Yes, but people have moved on from then. While wanting comics to be recognised as potentially as good in the broadest sense as prose fiction or cinema is an understanable urge, I would hope that the days were gone when people laboured under the illusion that the best approach to comics writing and criticism was to try and emulate prose fiction or cinema ("ooh, isn't the Dark Knight Returns cinematic?", "Watchmen is as dense and tightly structured as a novel!", "Maus is about serious things", etc etc). There are two main problems with this: firstly, focussing too much on other mediums doesn't yield the best results in purely formal terms; secondly and perhaps more importantly, it seems to often involve buying into established value systems regarding high v. low art, serious art v. entertainment, transitory v. enduring culture, the canon, etc etc.

Grant Morrison, for all his flaws, has often been good at recognising this - stating for example that he was trying to structure Marvel Boy like music, rather than cinema.

Now back to talking about Klarion, which I will join in when I've read it...
 
 
Eskay Doss
15:55 / 22.04.05
Kovacs, what you wrote sounded like angst to me - you were expressing remorse about what comic books (Klarion to be exact) lack. What you said...

"I read this in about 10 minutes on the train and thought it was fun and eerie, and that Klarion was cutely Burtonesque. Then, having finished Klarion, I read Philip Roth's The Plot Against America for the next 10 minutes, and it just seemed so much more ambitious, substantial, solid and rich that I wondered why I even bothered reading comic books. This may sound facetious: I don't mean it as such. It seems a shame that the grandest project by one of our very best comic book authors seems so disposable and light as soon as you pick up a decent novel."

...was as angsty as anything uttered by Klarion. You may have had a good point to make, but, as is often the case, it gets lost in the unpleasant snoberry of your presentation. Actually, maybe you're right. Maybe that wasn't angst, just plain old conceit.

Flyboy made some excellent points, and they go a long way to showing why your arguement just didn't make sense to me. And don't confuse my enjoyment of the caramel, nuts, and nuget inside my candy bar with a search for meat and potatoes. The big themes in this story are wrapped around the pure pop sensation of superhero comic books, which are not meant to be (at least this particular superhero comic isn't meant to be) considered "serious literature" or looked upon as some kind of academic treatise on class-struggle or whatever. There are "big themes" in all art, but that doesn't automatically elevate a work into the kind of intellectual depth and seriousness you seem to be craving.
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:58 / 22.04.05
I liked how the cat was orange while almost everything else was sort of blue.
 
 
diz
23:27 / 22.04.05
Then, having finished Klarion, I read Philip Roth's The Plot Against America for the next 10 minutes, and it just seemed so much more ambitious, substantial, solid and rich that I wondered why I even bothered reading comic books.

This post brought to you by kovacs, in the desperate hope that you will be impressed that he also reads Philip Roth.

Snarkiness aside, I do understand what you're saying to some degree. I usually feel this sort of thing when watching movies. There are a lot of movies that I've desperately wanted to see for a long time, and a lot of new ones that come out that really excite me, and yet somehow I tend to find myself watching something that's less interesting or exciting to me. Occasionally, I need to remind myself that if I've always wanted to see Movie X I should just see Movie X next time I go to the video store. There are only so many movies I'm going to see in my lifetime, so why watch crappy ones instead of things I really want to see?

So I can understand what you're saying with regard to feeling like you've wasted a lot of time reading X when you could have been reading Y. However, for me, personally, that doesn't translate across media. When I'm reading comics, I'm going to try to focus my time and energy on comics I like and which I'm genuinely excited and stimulated by, and when I'm reading novels, I'm going to do the same. I don't see how you can or should compare two entirely different media, and, I'm totally with Flyboy in hoping that comics start to grow past this adolescent need to prove themselves to be as "serious" and "worthy" as prose novels and just get on with the business of exploiting the possibilities of the medium they're actually working in.

If you feel that you're maybe not reading enough novels, then, by all means, go read more novels, but it seems silly to demand that comics be novels (or vice versa).
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:24 / 23.04.05
Kovacs,

U SUCK!!!!


~A~


---------------------------

'When I came back from the war it was with the thought of becoming a pig farmer, which maybe illustrates what I thought about life in general.'
 
 
Benny the Ball
08:18 / 23.04.05
Bit harsh, maybe Kovacs just made a point badly.

I've always read comics quickly, art work, if it's good, is for me absorbed at some level, but I never search it, it was always more about the words for me (however bad art work can destract from the whole experience and make it hard to read a comic for me). Sometimes I feel a bit cheated by the fact that they cost a lot and when I was younger (and buying a lot of comics) I'd have read a lot of them on the bus before I got home.

Grant Morrison has said on many occasions that he wants comics to be disposable and pop - however at the same time, I think that he's work, along with the work of some others, but seemingly more so him - especially here - is open to a massive amount of interpretation.

Kovacs has admitted that he only goes to two boards on barbelith (comics and films i'd imagine) so perhaps isn't aware that books get quite the same amount of disection on the book thread.

I find that the S7 books for me are read quickly, enjoyed (except for the one thing I pointed out about the pacing being stuck on a origin issue repeat mainly because I think I am still seeing this as a maxi-series interwoven, rather than a series of mini's that are linked at some level) and then I come here and read the relevent threads, and find out a lot more, go back and re-read, enjoy again.

As I get my books postally, I'm normally a week behind, so the threads are quite healthy by the point I've read the book.

Perhaps if Kovacs (who it seems is on a revision-history in literature thing at the moment) had made a link between man in high castle, philip roth's book and i don't know, v for vendetta or martha washington or something people wouldn't have been so harsh. Then again, maybe not.
 
 
The Falcon
12:58 / 23.04.05
perhaps isn't aware that books get quite the same amount of disection on the book thread.

Only not really. I mean, where do they? Murakami gets a read, but it's not generally individual threads per novel or anything. We're kinda nowist here.

I like Phil Roth, he's a dirty wee cunt. I like Kovey quite a lot, not just 'cos I read a bit of his Batman book, (and despite the idea I have that he considers me part of the squealing gaycream joypant brigade) and I think we should all stop talking about him after I've done this bit, following. Takes more'n one person to derail a topic, ya kno. (Also, grassing the boy up, because he wrote something about Barbelith with the same username elsewhere is a bit much; hands up if you never griped about this website, verbally or otherwise - thought so.)

So, books v. comics. Hum. Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon is a bit better than his Black Widow #1 anyway. I find it a bit hard to get jazzed about contemporary mainstream/'realist' literature, particularly British books - of which I think Trainspotting was prolly the last to have any kind of immediacy and verve. Also, there's the cumulative effect of the novel; did Kovacs read the first chapter after his copy of Klarion #1 or pages 103-119, in which case I'd suggest, say, #2 or #3 would make for a better comparison. I only know the premise of The Plot..., but I do prefer 'cordoned Puritan witch-village' to 'Nazis won WWII' as a whole, given that the latter occurs to most post Standard Grade/GCSE/whatever History pupils.

Now, attempting to shunt train back on track, the comic. Was good, but not as good as a) fishnets or b) shiner. I wonder if Klarion combine combine with Tweekl like the Horigal draaga/submissionary gestalt? That'd be nice.

The Grundies gave's a good, bleak laff. The Kit-Kat wrapper reminded me of the premise to a film called The Gods Must Be Crazy, S. African I think, in which a coke can falls from an aeroplane on a Bushman village.

Love Frazer's art.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:47 / 23.04.05
alternatively:

THWAK!!!

yeah, ya fuckin bitch kovacs! huh! HUH!!

who's the daddy kovey?

ya bitch!!!!

plink - crunch huh crunch - huh - crunch - huh - thwak! LOL! yeeharrrr!!!

that'll fuckin learn you.

listen up:

don't ever

repeat ever

question Morrison's ability again.

now go post that on your website, bee-atch
 
 
pornotaxi
14:58 / 23.04.05
from Roanoke & Croatoan: English Settlement at Roanoke (1584-1590), an artistic impression of Roanoke Island:



more than a passing resemblance to Slaughter Swamp there, i'd venture..
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:27 / 23.04.05
Not really convinced by most of the points above; sorry. I am happy to admit correction when I realise someone else is right and I'm mistaken, but I think some people are getting caught up in point-scoring snarkiness and that's an obstacle to proper discussion.

I would reply in more detail to the posts I felt were more interesting and worthwhile, but I don't want to rot your board. However, I should say this is the first Roth novel I have ever read -- it is immediately accessible and gripping, and if you think Roth is some "difficult" author I was showing off about, you should give the book a shot and perhaps overcome some silly prejudices.
 
 
Triplets
16:57 / 23.04.05
Are you still talking about Phillip Roth? Why are you still talking about Phillip Roth? This thread is about witches and swamp towns.

If you want to talk about how much you fancy Phillip Roth we have an entire section called Books for you to do that in.
 
 
Aertho
17:50 / 23.04.05
Methinks kovacs wants meaning from his swamp towns and witches.

Or are you just bored?

Which is it?
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
18:20 / 23.04.05
*ignores all that has gone before*

Finally got it... not particularly impressed. But to be honest that's the same feeling I've had with all the #1's with the exception of Zatanna.
I know it's going somewhere so it's worth following but this first issue leaves me cold and faintly disinterested.

I'm beginning to regret my decision to buy each issue instead of waiting for the trades (which I think will be exceptionally fantastic once the whole shebang is collected).
 
 
Triplets
22:20 / 23.04.05
I'm waiting for the trades myself, but only because I'm lazy enough to have missed three of the first issues already. I'm am SO tempted to track down #1 of the Manhattan Guardian on eBay or the bargain bins, the lovely suits here have made it sound like my dream comic.
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:28 / 24.04.05
Does anybody have the Kirby DEMON issue at hand? How much of the new series' elements were present in the old series? Was there any mention of where Klarion comes from? What he's doing in Gotham, etc?
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:32 / 24.04.05
RE getting the 7 Soldiers trades:

I wonder how DC will format & price these? Will each volume double up and feature two series? Would they be priced @ 9.95 like the first TEEN TITANS trade? If they want people to buy the series in trade in toto, they'll hopefully have to price them affodably. A tpb of a four issue series should actually be priced lower than 9.95...

And how will the JHW3 bookends be released? They might be impenetrable to outsiders if released togather as one trade. GM says that the minis can be read out of sequence, and some can be skipped without missing crucial plot elements, so I'm curious as to how this will all be set up on the tpb front.
 
 
_Boboss
11:23 / 24.04.05
you lot are mad: don't you know you're fucking wit doctor batman?

you'll fail your a-levels. seriously.
 
 
Mario
12:52 / 24.04.05
I don't have the issues, but Googling brought up this info:

He's from a realm called the Witch-World, and came to our world (with Teekl), so he could practice his magic (which was illegal to all but the elders of his world).

The draaga were beasts used by the Judges of his world to capture lawbreakers, and the Horigal is some sort of monster (I haven't found a good reference for what).

So, really, a lot of the details aren't new.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
01:39 / 25.04.05
Lovely comic, really.

Art is stupendous! More comics need to look like this.

Also, being a Mozz reading from ages back I was happy to see the "I gotta get the fuck outta this town" element in this story. It's touches like this that are very intimately Grant. The touch of teenage not belonging and boredom really touch me as a reader.

More, more, more.
 
 
diz
18:15 / 25.04.05
if you think Roth is some "difficult" author I was showing off about, you should give the book a shot and perhaps overcome some silly prejudices.

but i's scared, massa kovacs! i ain't readin' so good, an' massa roth use so many big words! i's be fo' stickin' wit dem books wit pichers in 'em.
 
 
diz
18:18 / 25.04.05
I was happy to see the "I gotta get the fuck outta this town" element in this story.

absolutely. i was also digging the way he nails that weird pornographic quality Puritan rhetoric seems to have. you know, people being smacked with rods and stuff, and i thought those two aspects worked really well together, i thought.
 
 
The Falcon
18:21 / 25.04.05
Now go hence for your comics vs. books discussions.
 
 
Warewullf
19:10 / 26.04.05
I just got this and fucking lloved it. Great art, great story (except for the ending) and just great, great atmosphere.

The whole "Duunnn braaannn me..." begging-to-be-spared scene really got to me for some reason. The whole idea of being reanimated and put to work really creeped me out (and resonated with a documentary I watched the other night about zombies in Haiti. One man was pronounced dead in the 60's, came back to his village 20 years later claming he'd been turned into a zombie and put to work on a plantation with 150 other zombies. I can't remeber his name but I'm sure some of you have heard the story).

Err, anyway, yeah. Great stuff.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:36 / 27.04.05
>> I've never been so in awe of a kit-kat wrapper before or considered it's potential for magick.

This was my favorite bit in the comic.

And the bit about the cat being orange while everything else was sort of bluish, as Mr. Tricks said.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
16:02 / 27.04.05
I loved it, even with the [necessary] slower pace and Klarion still not reaching for the modern world in the end of #1. the KitKat wrapper was a nice touch, seemed so alien in that context.

more on Kirby's original version:

here
and here
an appearance in Wonder Woman's comic





recently seen in JLU's cartoon:

 
 
FinderWolf
16:37 / 27.04.05
Klarion showed up in the Batman animated series too, pre-Justice League cartoon. The episode, of course, had the Demon in it and was quite kick-ass, as I recall.
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:21 / 27.04.05
The book mentioned a previous 'rebel' witch-boy. Was this suggesting that the previous was Kirby's witch-boy - something which seems quite common in this series, or are we looking at revamps?
 
 
Aertho
00:02 / 28.04.05
That'd be a twist. Weird. Demon Klarion is 7S Klarion's father? It'd be kinda Letourneau, though. Wun't it?
 
 
--
03:05 / 28.04.05
Is it just me or has this place gotten way snarkier recently?

As for the comic, it was good. Still digesting it, though, can't add much else. I like Klarion's hair.
 
 
Ganesh
07:40 / 28.04.05
It's just you.
 
  

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