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The Moral Case For Abortion

 
  

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astrojax69
20:15 / 17.03.05
Given that contraception is the prevention of conception occurring, and abortion is its' termination once it does, contraception should always be a purely personal concern, whereas once conception has taken place, there is some moral concern

unless you insist that conception is the starting point for moral concern, i don't see that this follows necessarily. one could just as easily assert that while the 'living thing' requires the support of the biological functions of the mother - womb, nourishment, etc - the mother has equivalent, perhaps even superior, moral concern with her own functioning. so what if the 'living thing' can't sustain itself; who's fault is that?

what about conception is so significant?
 
 
Nobody's girl
02:20 / 18.03.05
There isn't a way to turn our reproductive systems off...

A patently false premise, given the number of easily-available contraceptive methods. And even surgical sterilization is proving to be increasingly reversible: if that's not damned close to an on/off switch for human reproduction, I don't know what is.


Just gotta address this, Jack.

a) For the most part contraception is easily and freely available in the UK, yes. In almost all other countries, even the US, people have to pay for their birth control.

b) Accidents happen. For example, I was conceived when my mother was using an IUD.

c) I know from personal experience that just because there's loads of different contraceptives does not mean that you'll find one that suits you. I suspect that for most women it is a case of tolerating the least intrusive method.

For me it boils down to this-

I cannot take hormonal contraceptives because they seriously mess with my system. They have been linked with illnesses such as strokes and DVT with the overweight and smokers, of which I was both. They also contribute to the rising eostrogen levels in the water table which are feminising men.

Diaphragms were painful despite several careful fittings, so rather pointless for sex. Plus it's a rather uncomfortably gooey device that increases the chances of getting urinary tract infections (Eeek!).

IUD's are unsuitable unless you've had a child and have some really scary possible problems, such as puncturing the womb and only being retrievable with abdominal surgery. I hear that infections with an IUD in are agonising too. Maybe I'm weird, but I have a problem with inserting a hard metal device into my womb, the idea is kinda creepy.

I don't want to be sterilised as I want to have children. The point is moot anyway because doctors in the UK will not sterilise a patient if they have less than 2 children. Sometimes not even then.

Condoms are my only option. But they can split, fall off and get forgotton in the heat of passion. Plus long term they really start to get on your nerves.

My point? Please don't assume that birth control is just a case of nipping down the chemists, for many women it invoves much more trouble than simply being conscientious.
 
 
hoatzin
09:55 / 18.03.05
what about conception is so significant?


Because that is the identifiable point at which the 'person' begins to come into existence. I agree that there is a period during which the concerns of the mother are equal or superior, but this is much more of a grey area.
Also, what about the concerns of the father?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:02 / 18.03.05
Because that is the identifiable point at which the 'person' begins to come into existence.

Really? It is an identifiable point in a biological process, but interepreting what such points "mean" is a lot harder than identifying them. "A person begins to come into existence" is a more subjective judgment that is then made about what that point represents - "person" and "existence" are not concepts the definition of which can be agreed upon universally.
 
 
Cherielabombe
15:26 / 19.03.05
I find it rather interesting that, although the question of "when does fetus become a living human being" has been deemed by Jack too much a distraction for this discussion, one idea which keeps getting bandied about is this exact question.

To some extent this is the crux of the abortion debate - is a fetus a human being? in the U.S. at least, it certainly looks as if it is.

I tend to think that a zygote is a mass of cells, not a human being. I don't want to call it a "potential human being" because that reframes the debate in a way that puts the focus on the "potential human" rather than on the needs and quality of life of the "all ready human" carrying the child (and the "potential dad" ).

I also fail to see how you can have a debate about abortion without bringing feminism and the rights of women into it, particularly as women are the ones who have no choice but to carry the baby, and most people making laws about abortion and contraception tend to be men. That doesn't mean that abortion as a women's issue is the only way to look at it, but you're willfully ignoring a significant factor in the so-called "moral issues" surrounding abortion.

Obviously the rights of the man who helped conceive the zygote are also important, but they are less immediate.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:53 / 19.03.05
Obviously the rights of the man who helped conceive the zygote aren't important, but they are less immediate.

Not sure I understand this—should that be "... are also important"?
 
 
Cherielabombe
22:14 / 19.03.05
Ha! Freudian slip? Yes - it should be - will make that change now.
 
 
hoatzin
07:41 / 20.03.05
"person" and "existence" are not concepts the definition of which can be agreed upon universally.
Surely they can be for the purposes of this discussion. Before conception there is nothing to argue about, afterwards there is. I could say conception is the point at which a fetus begins to develop; this is really a definition, rather than an opinion. If we can't agree in this thread that we are 'people' who 'exist' then this thread is pointless! Do we have to define every single term before we venture opinions?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:14 / 20.03.05
No, but the use of those terms (person and existence) within the context of the abortion debate is often highly contentious. "Conception" is rather easier to get people to agree on, but only because it is a biological event. As Petey said, attaching significance to that event is tricky, largely because that is where a lot of the debate is located. So you can't really dodge that issue and expect everyone to broadly agree, though of course you are bound to have your own opinion of the matter.
 
 
alas
13:29 / 20.03.05
Ok: the thought experiment that sometimes gets bandied about in this debate: If you were the only person who could donate a kidney to another human, Person B, and thus allow that person to survive, should the government be able to force you to do so? Or, say, a pint of blood, to make it even less intrusive. Give up a pint of blood a week so this other person can survive.

Maybe it's the "morally correct" thing to sacrifice, to give up some bodily element, to go through some pain and discomfort, for that other human, but it's not necessarily right to force someone to be a "good samaritan." If I don't want to keep this other "potential person" alive inside me, the government should not be able to force me to incubate them. (And, as an aside, I'm not convinced we should be working so hard to save the lives of ever younger fetuses when medical resources are limited.) This debate is about controlling women's bodies and choices.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:18 / 20.03.05
I'm never quite sure what the satisfactory answer to that thought experiment is, alas, but there is something about it that doesn't quite work for me. Surely, at some point, the personal choices involved in becoming preganant bear some moral weight?

Another point is that the thought experiment sounds an awful lot like libertarian thinking. That is, a libertarian will argue that there is no justification for the state "forcing" a person to support, through taxation, a nationalised health service. This is complex, of course, and you might argue that the analogy completely breaks down here. But...I don't think I accept that the state has no right to force citizens to act for some common good. I'm not sure one can make generalisations, but surely the case is the strongest when a person's life is at stake?

I guess I am not convinced that controlling women's bodies is the only issue here, even though it has been and to a lesser extent continues to be a significant part of it.
 
 
hoatzin
09:01 / 21.03.05
I'm not convinced we should be working so hard to save the lives of ever younger fetuses when medical resources are limited
I personally agree with that. But how on earth could not saving these lives be implemented? Again it hinges on the discussion of person vs fetus.
I only ever used the term 'persons' and 'exist' because ' potential persons' were successfully introduced much earlier in the thread without complaint!
I really do think that conception is the point at which concern begins precisely because it is an identifiable biological event. Consciousness etc. can't be defined yet. I am not saying that at this stage of life there are no other options but to sustain it, just that this is where the argument starts. This isn't dodging the issue at all.
 
 
HCE
00:02 / 22.03.05
Just want to point out that conception is a guarantee of precisely nothing. Things go amiss in bodies and not all cell clumps make it to even the zygote stage. Potentiality is so tricky -- how can you ever know what will happen in a particular case?

Also, the essence of the example alas gave is not just that one person is being forced to contribute to the survival of another, nor that people generally are being forced to support other people, but that one specific person's body is singled out to support one other person. It's one thing to take my money, as taxes or what have you -- it's not quite the same thing to take my flesh directly.
 
 
HCE
00:17 / 22.03.05
Also, I don't believe it is strictly necessary, medically speaking, that cells that started out in my body remain there -- I think they could be removed and put into another person's body. If my eggs were fertilized without my consent, why should I have to be the one to incubate them? Why not Laura Bush or Britney Spears, for example? They both seem to have perfectly hospitable wombs.
 
 
HCE
00:19 / 22.03.05
Ok, I'm a genius -- we just have to get every person into whose body a cell cluster, zygote, or fetus could be implanted, and who is anti-choice, and do a series of transfers. Surely they'll be lining up for these free lifts to the moral high ground.
 
 
alas
21:15 / 02.04.05
Surely, at some point, the personal choices involved in becoming pregnant bear some moral weight?

Because men and women still do not have equal earning or social power in most if not all societies on this planet, I assume that truly consensual informed sex is not the norm. And, because degree of consensuality in any sexual encounter is virtually impossible to determine from the outside, I give broad scope to the woman's view of the situation since her body bears the burden of the "personal choices" involved--including the man's. It is possible my views would be different if we lived in a more egalitarian world; the personal choices you discuss pale in comparison to the moral weight of the dramatically unequal society we currently do live in.

For me, forcing a person to carry a child to term is akin to rape: if a person has a body or body part of another person forced or kep inside her body against her will, it represents an invasion of her physical integrity. If I do not want to have another's body in my body, using my bodily resources, causing my body pain, it has no right to be there when there are safe means of removing it.

I also want to address the assumption that typically pervades this debate, that virtually all the women who get abortions are young and unmarried and just out for a lark. Two women who I count amongst my closest friends had abortions when they were married and already had at least one child: both had been using contraception, the contraception had failed, and their marriages were on the rocks. Both desperately needed to be in the paid workforce, full time, and neither felt emotionally prepared for facing possible divorce and creating a new single-parent home with yet another child on the way. Both were saddened by the choice, but neither thinks she made the wrong decision, even though one of my friends' marriages ultimately survived.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
21:41 / 04.04.05
As for the discussion of the moral implications of abortion in 'a vacuum', i.e. in and of itself that is impossible. For the simple reason that abortion does not take place in and of itself. It takes place, sorry, in a person and is a result of a convergence of personal and societal needs and beliefs. It's impossible to make a moral case for abortion alone because it never takes place independently of other persons and factors. Bottom line to me is that the moral case for abortion lies with the woman undergoing it. It is, in my opinion, ethical to allow women (AND their partners) reproductive choice. As was pointed out earlier, contraceptive methods are not necessarily the easy-peasy, sugar coated pill that some people in this debate seem to think. (And this is in Britain, where the oral contraceptive is available on the NHS. In other countries, as well I know, it costs money. I used to pay about 8 pounds per pack of 21 for the only combined pill that didn't cause me to have frightening mood-swings - I was a student at the time. )

But contraception is by the by. The moral ground for abortion doesn't lie with the fetus but with the person carrying that fetus and their human right to have control over their own body. I am not being reductive here - I accept the complexities that accompany the ideas of a 'potential human' and when it stops merely being a potentiality and starts to be an 'actual human' is, to put it mildly, an emotional and contentious issue. But the question addressed by this thread is: The moral case for abortion: is there one? and this is my answer.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
22:58 / 04.04.05
Sorry, I just realised that Lady stipulated 'beyond the wellbeing of the mother'.

Another rant dead in the water.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:46 / 05.04.05
I don't think it is dead in the water - I mean, I think you have to treat that as if someone had said "What's the moral case against slavery - beyond the well-being of the slaves?" - ie, it's a mistake to construct the question in that way...
 
 
slinkyvagabond
15:18 / 06.04.05
Yes, I guess that is my point. The morality or immorality of abortion cannot be weighed up without taking into consideration the potential mother and her feelings, and to some extent, the father's. 'Abortion' is absolutely indivorceable from the people who have to live through it or who are denied it.
 
 
ibis the being
16:44 / 06.04.05
I could say conception is the point at which a fetus begins to develop; this is really a definition, rather than an opinion.

No, but the use of those terms (person and existence) within the context of the abortion debate is often highly contentious. "Conception" is rather easier to get people to agree on, but only because it is a biological event. As Petey said, attaching significance to that event is tricky, largely because that is where a lot of the debate is located.


Well, fertilization (sperm meets egg) may be a singular event, but as many people who've had difficulty having children can tell you, even "conception" can be a grey area.

Also, I don't believe it is strictly necessary, medically speaking, that cells that started out in my body remain there -- I think they could be removed and put into another person's body. If my eggs were fertilized without my consent, why should I have to be the one to incubate them?

This is a really great point, because if you're going to call all fertilized eggs "potential people" that are entitled to "grow up," then what of the legions of frozen embryos sitting around in fertility labs and/or discarded? What about the fact the IVF pretty invariably involves the implantation of several embryos with the knowledge that most or all will perish? Is that immoral because of the waste of "potential people" created at conception? Or does the location of conception change its moral weight?

Like alas, I think there's an assumption being made here about who's having the abortion that is unfair, foolish, and irrelevant to the moral argument, all at once. To say that some people will use the procedure for immoral or irresponsible reasons does not make the procedure itself immoral. Because some people abuse pain medications, are pain medications themselves immoral? There may be other debatable reasons that abortion is immoral, but the spurious claim that it's going to be used as conception should not even come into play.
 
 
ibis the being
16:44 / 06.04.05
Eh, sorry, I meant "used as CONTRAception."
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:18 / 07.04.05
I'm relieved that this thread is starting to make some kind of sense again, for a while there it felt like it had been taken over by a group of people who were talking about something very theoretical and not at all real. I often find that people get so locked in to the idea that an innocent baby is being hurt that they forget that there is another person involved, a person who is going to be far more immediately effected by the pregnancy and indeed the abortion then anyone else who could possibly be involved- and I include the foetus in that anyone else.

For a while this thread seemed to have been hijacked by men with little to no idea of the practical and moral concepts of having your body taken over. Not simply taken over by a baby but by a law and a government as well. While I'm usually a great proponent of state rule I think that it shouldn't be able to afford life or death to anyone.

It is very easy for any man to put forward a moral argument against abortion because the complications are so relaxed for them. All of the issues that they have to face are inward-thinking, the role of the father, the growth of the child, the immediacy isn't there. There's no real conception that something that you are meant to socially love more than anything else in the world is unwanted or extremely inconvenient or impossible for you.

I feel that many of the people here haven't been putting forward a moral argument but a reactionary one because what they've really been saying is that you can choose one life above another in a very straightforward way, you should be able to take control over a woman's body from her. But if I took your hands, or your drugs, gave you hot flushes and swollen ankles and a sore and aching body and I said to you, 'this has to happen to you now, you got yourself in this mess, you can't do anything to escape it because that would be illegal. You're going to be like this for nine months and then you either have to look after a child for 20 years or send it away to an unknown fate,' would that be moral to you or would you be stunned by the immorality inherent in the freedom that had been snatched from you?

This argument does not live beyond women, you can talk to men about a baby they have helped create but fundamentally it is not and never can be their choice because they can't bring a child to term. This is about women, their bodies, their lives, it's immoral to take a person's choice away when she can't help her bodily functions- I don't care if someone has used contraception or not, this is simply the female body and you can't be biased against half of the human race for something they can't turn off.
 
 
Spaniel
10:21 / 07.04.05
I would interested to know what you think about late abortion.

At what point in the pregnancy does abortion cease to be acceptable?
Does it *ever* cease to be acceptable?

No judgements here, just interested is all.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:33 / 07.04.05
No I don't think it does cease to be acceptable. Late abortion tends to be performed on medical grounds- if a child is deemed to be ill in some way or if the mother has nasty complications and it tends to be performed on older women. If I was 45 years old and pregnant with a Downs syndrome child I'd be terrified of what would happen to him/her after I'd died and I'd plausibly have to spend my old age being a carer- that's not something I'd be prepared to take on. I don't believe that you're a person until you can live independently of the womb, likewise I think that people on life support systems who will never live without them shouldn't be kept alive unless they are capable of and do specifically request it. A foetus cannot request anything and I don't believe that a will to live is inbuilt in to an unborn baby... or in to anyone, I bleieve that is something that you develop through experience.
 
 
alas
13:23 / 07.04.05
Amen, Nina. There's an assumption about late term abortions, too, that some big percentage of them, or even some very important small percentage of them, are performed by women who "just can't make up their minds" and have dithered away 9 months of their lives trying to decide and then at the last moment they've said, "Oops, you know, on second thought, I don't want to give birth. Sorry."

That's a fantasy. An evil one, built on very retrograde notions of how women think and behave. There's an assumption of moral incapacity invoked even in the question as it was framed: shouldn't we at some point take away the woman's right to control her body from her, because clearly she can't quite make as moral of decisions as we can about her life, her bodily function? Shouldn't her decisions have some oversight?

No. If we are to regard women as moral persons, then they must have a right to late term abortions, the vast majority of which are performed because of very very serious problems, often problems that threaten the health or even the life of the mother--and often seriously compromise the health of the foetus as well.

If we have this late-term limit, then we're essentially saying that we need to have a panel of physicians and/or government authorities saying: "You can't possibly make a rational decision about this central event in your life. We must make it for you."
 
 
slinkyvagabond
15:01 / 07.04.05

Here's a personal story - and no, I don't feel off-topic because as Nina pointed out, the morality of abortion exists with women and not 'above and beyond' them. Don't worry, I won't talk about anything icky.
I grew up in the Republic of Ireland, where we have a democracy and equality laws and all those things that are said to be the measure of a 'civilised country'. You can see where this is going, can't you?
Well, anyway, when I got here to Manchester, shortly after arrival I read in a student newspaper that there was a bit of a heated debate going on about a new Marie Stopes clinic being started in Fallowfield (which as you might know, if you're familiar with Manchester, is the 'student village', just packed full of empty-headed hussies, all gagging for the gritty, 'real' experience of an unwanted pregnancy). This is a simple story: can I just say how AMAZED I felt, that this was a public debate. That the people who were against the clinic were in a minority. That such a clinic could be discussed in the newspaper openly and fairly rationally. I was touched to my core, I'm not exaggerating. I have some reservations about the UK, the whole Imperial past business can grate a bit plus I had My First Racist Experience while living here, but to allow women that choice, to trust that they have a moral compass of their own and to demonstrate a true separation of Church and State is to me a mark of civilisation indeed.
To export confused, upset and quite possibly ashamed women and girls to a foreign country (where things are different and sometimes confusing, despite a shared language and similar cultures) is a fucking disgrace. A State that refuses to take responsibilty for half their electorate's human right to bodily sanctity is about as immoral as you can get.

SV
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:22 / 08.04.05
I dunno. I'm not entirely satisfied with Nina's and Alas' position. It reads like a hostile reaction to fundamentalism - which is understanable, of course - rather than a defensible postion in and of itself.

For instance,

It is very easy for any man to put forward a moral argument against abortion because the complications are so relaxed for them.

is kinda fair. Only, not all opponents to abortion *are* men. You can claim that certain women are being indoctrinated, but that tends to sit badly with calls for a woman's right to choose. I guess this is mostly a personal thing in that I loathe what I perceive as largely ad hominem arguments.

Moving on,

This is about women, their bodies, their lives, it's immoral to take a person's choice away when she can't help her bodily functions

it strikes me that this isn't at all generalisable, even though it seems that Nina is presenting it as such. For instance, there are arguments that a disposition to racism (a disposition to generalise and make judgements on observable physical differences) is hardwired. But just because it is arguably innate, doesn't make it right. Thats psychological, rather than physical, but I think the point stands.

TBH, these arguments come across as trying to do too much, in the sense that they are constructed so as to leave no room for debate. This is, again, understandable but unfortunate. For instance, when alas says,

If we have this late-term limit, then we're essentially saying that we need to have a panel of physicians and/or government authorities saying: "You can't possibly make a rational decision about this central event in your life. We must make it for you."

the argument is being made that there is a myth of late term abortions being unnecessary and that, anyway, we can't possibly interfere. Thing is, if they are all performed for medical reasons it is hard to see why one would have such a strong objection to them being medically sanctioned. Myself, I wouldn't frame the argument in this way - where the only concern deemed legitimate for the debate is the woman's choice. Because you both have to argue that this choice is always best, and that it doesn't matter when it may not be. Which is odd.

I meant to make this point in reply to alas last post which left me with the impression that alas was arguing that women are the best people to make the choice about abortion, but can't be considered to competently make choices about procreation. Again, it very strange.

At the risk of repeating myself, it strikes me as clear that the status of the foetus is key here, even though it isn't being discussed. When Nina says,

A foetus cannot request anything and I don't believe that a will to live is inbuilt in to an unborn baby... or in to anyone, I bleieve that is something that you develop through experience.

this would hold equally well as an argument against the rights of a newly born baby. But newborns *do* have rights, which I am sure no one will contest. The difference seems to be attaching overwhelming significance to birth itself, which is oddly a mirror of the anti-abortion stance which does the same thing with conception.

I just think the issues are messier than these bright dividing lines can capture.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:47 / 09.04.05
I can't form an argument against you Lurid because fundamentally we disagree. You're thinking about abortion and I'm thinking about society as every woman has to- and she has to choose whether women come first or the sanctity of life comes first.

I really don't believe there is a moral argument beyond a woman's right to control her own body, medical favour is simply additional to that one basic point. The only point that I can accept when thinking about abortion. It's immoral to treat an adult who does not have a mental problem as if they are deficient in some way and by taking a woman's body away from her you are doing that. It doesn't matter if there's a contradiction between a foetus and a newborn baby, it doesn't matter because you have to hold every woman's right above that of the baby. If you don't then women are not equal to men and then you have the beginning of a truly and absolutely immoral society.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:35 / 09.04.05
Here's an interesting and compelling moral case for abortion that focuses almost entirely on aspects other than the well-being of the mother...

We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime. ....

Legalized abortion may lead to reduced crime either through reductions in cohort sizes or through lower per capita offending rates for affected cohorts. .... More interesting and important is the possibility that children born after abortion legalization may on average have lower subsequent rates of criminality for either of two reasons. First, women who have abortions are those most at risk to give birth to children who would engage in criminal activity. Teenagers, unmarried women, and the economically disadvantaged are all substantially more likely to seek abortions ...

Recent studies have found children born to these mothers to be at higher risk for committing crime in adolescence ... Gruber et al. [1999], in the paper most similar to ours, document that the early life circumstances of those children on the margin of abortion are difficult along many dimensions: infant mortality, growing up in a single-parent family, and experiencing poverty. Second, women may use abortion to optimize the timing of childbearing. A given woman’s ability to provide a nurturing environment to a child can fluctuate over time depending on the woman’s age, education, and income, as well as the presence of a father in the child’s life, whether the pregnancy is wanted, and any drug or alcohol abuse both in utero and after the birth. Consequently, legalized abortion provides a woman the opportunity to delay childbearing if the current conditions are suboptimal. Even if lifetime fertility remains constant for all women, children are born into better environments, and future criminality is likely to be reduced.


It's a long paper (67 page .pdf) but well worth skimming.

And frankly I'd contest Flyboy's assertion that it's "a mistake" to try to couch the issue in any terms other than as a feminist issue. The example he uses is that it's 'as if someone had said "What's the moral case against slavery - beyond the well-being of the slaves?'"

Of course the, early abolitionists could and did make such arguments all the time, since even the liberals in their audiences had a hard time accepting black folk as being 100% human. And indeed, the method is still in wide use today, most prominently in the case against capital punishment; the well-being of an incarcerated murderer plays into such arguments relatively rarely, the focus being instead on how complicity in state-sponsored killing is bad for the average citizen.
 
 
alas
22:57 / 09.04.05
In response to L'Anima's concerns, I should say, first, that my thoughts on this issue have been strongly shaped by Drucilla Cornell's arguments. She summarizes them here, in a letter to the Boston Review of Books dated 1995. Here are two relevant quotations:

I think it is not reasonable to expect women to accept the legitimacy of any legal system that denies them the right to abortion. How can I make that claim? At the heart of the Kantian conception of reasonableness - and in The Imaginary Domain I foreground and defend the political conception of reasonableness developed by John Rawls - is the argument that the rightfulness of any law should be judged by the hypothetical consent of citizens suitably represented and evaluated as free and equal persons.

The Rawlsian conception of reasonableness is inseparable from the public evaluation of our equivalent worth as persons in spite of the very real facts of our differences. What does it mean to deny a woman the right to abortion as a matter of law? It means that she is denied her equivalent worth as a person -- the very moral status that rights are meant in this conception to recognize. Put as strongly as possible: the fact of a woman's sexual difference is used to justify her treatment as a violable object. Since this treatment denies women equality as persons, it denies us the fair conditions of cooperation in which acceptance of any law as rightful could be legitimately imposed upon us.


and

The fact of woman's sexual differences should be taken into account in precisely this way: we must recognize in our political morality that a fetus is like no other being because it is a part of another's body. The development of legal interests must, rather, turn on a conception of personhood in which one exists independently, and not as a part of the body of the mother.

Cornell therefore argues that while the fetus is connected to the woman's body by an umbilical cord, it is a part of her body, and it remains her choice as to how what to do with that part of her body. The cutting of the cord is the crucial moment where the fetus becomes a child and a human with separable interests. Cornell developed these ideas further in her book, The Imaginary Domain, 1998.

I essentially agree with this fairly "bright line," and I do not see it as a problematic "mirror" of the anti-choice stance, as L'Anima implies.

I also don't believe I am arguing, as L'Anima implies that I am, "that [a woman's] choice is always best, and that it doesn't matter when it may not be." I'm arguing that women must have this right in order to be free and equal citizens before the law. I'm not sure what "best" means in this context. If the woman does not wish to have this fetus as a part of her body it is immoral to force her to carry it to term.

Finally, the claim that my post "left [L'Anima] with the impression that alas was arguing that women are the best people to make the choice about abortion, but can't be considered to competently make choices about procreation."

I'm not 100% sure what's being argued here. I am understanding the term "procreation" to be "the sexual activity of conceiving and bearing offspring." Women must make choices about procreation, all the time, and, I am in fact arguing that, in order to do so, they must have abortion as an option, because procreation, or, more accurately, pregnancy, can be forced upon another person.

Pregnancy is not reducible to a "decision": as Nina and others have argued, we cannot consciously control our body's fertility (although contraceptive devices/pharmaceuticals can give some element of control, they are not 100% effective and cannot be used at all times during a woman's fertility). Moreover, our life-situations can change dramatically at any time after intercourse in ways that we cannot fully control. Women are in fact, therefore, the only ones who CAN competently make choices about their own procreation. That's my argument.

And, of course, rape makes this even more complex. I cannot force pregnancy on a man's body, but a man can--despite whatever wishes or even physical ailments I may have--attempt to force pregnancy on me. However, at this point in our history, he also would require the assistance of the state in forcing "procreation" on me, because there are various legal and safe means at my disposal of stopping the pregnancy. The state's willingness to support or even to require such force against women's bodies is not acceptable to me, and is in fact, immoral.

I do not agree that the state has a compelling interest in preserving the on-going integrity of the fetus's body as against the on-going integrity of the mother's body at any point, because to get to the fetus, you must go through the mother.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
16:12 / 10.04.05
Actually Jack, the article you quote shows us another moral case for abortion interlinked quite clearly with the wellbeing of the mother/potential mother. From the quote you posted at least, it seems quite clear that the authors are saying the mother's ability to delay having a child until a point when she was psychologically and materially ready for it lowered the chances of that child behaving criminally. I don't understand how anyone could think this isn't to do with the mother's wellbeing. I'm not attacking, I'm curious.

Also, I don't think we can claim that abortion is a feminist issue alone, though it certainly is that. But I'm sorry, it's more a women's issue than it is a men's issue. I'm not saying that fathers/potential fathers shouldn't have input in these decisions, if they have stuck around long enough to do so, but ultimately the choice lies (or ought to lie) with the woman. It's not sexism, it's a bone fide qualification.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:34 / 10.04.05
Couple of things, alas

I'm not 100% sure what's being argued here.

I was referring to this,

Because men and women still do not have equal earning or social power in most if not all societies on this planet, I assume that truly consensual informed sex is not the norm.

which one might read as a sympathetic description of...incompetence. You don't mean that, of course, but a critic might responds that you are being a touch selective about what you are regarding as consensual and informed.

But really, this is one of those agree to disagree moments, isn't it? I am pro-choice, broadly speaking, though I think it is a ethically (!) murky area. If you assume that a foetus has no rights until the actual moment of birth, and that the freedom of the mother to choose is the only argument relevant to the debate, then you will end up with a certain position. If you think that a foetus has rights equal to that of a person and that abortion is akin to murder, you end up somewhere else. I'm somewhere on one side, which sympathies for the other, though I wouldn't claim that this kind of compromise is in any straightforward way superior.

Rather, I am pointing out the incommensurability of claims put forward in this debate. If there is any point I'd hope to emphasise, it is that despite the history of sexism and subjugation of women, there is also a respectable pro-life position, that comes down to a different reading of relevant ethical concerns. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that this is the norm - and this is probably my logical puritanism showing - but I think it is important to acknowledge that.
 
 
alas
11:53 / 11.04.05
If there is any point I'd hope to emphasise, it is that despite the history of sexism and subjugation of women, there is also a respectable pro-life position, that comes down to a different reading of relevant ethical concerns.

I suspect, once again, that part of our differing emphases has to do with context and experience. I grew up in a strictly pro-life household, all of my relatives are pro-life, and most of the college students I teach today are pro-life. I had never heard a single pro-choice argument, presented sympathetically, until I was 17 years old, at a summer camp, when rooming with a young woman who was pro-choice. I became pro-choice almost overnight. Not without giving years of thought to the pro-life position, however--both before and after my "conversion," so to speak.

So, for me, it is a given that I have to treat those who hold a "pro-life" view with respect, in my daily life. I therefore, in my daily life, have to treat this argument with care and respect, even as I experience it as an attack on my physical and moral integrity. I know that many "pro-life" are working from a sincere belief in the sanctity of life. Some, but very few, hold this view pretty consistently: no death penalty, no participation in war for any reason, no euthanasia.

In the US, however, the "pro-life" view typicaly asserts a "bright line" between "innocent" life and life that is not innocent, and can be taken. They in fact most often believe that there can be no, absolutely no grounds for abortion: even to save the mother's life, rape, incest. God creates the life; we have no business in ending it, no matter what (until that life becomes "not innocent"--a label that is determined by ... well, them). This view is so strong in the US right now that abortion and even contraception are getting more and more difficult to acquire. I grew up in a small rural town. There are huge swaths of the country where there are no physicians willing or trained to perform abortions. There are pharmacists who are refusing to fill prescriptions for contraception, especially in the midwestern and so called "red-states," where it's not uncommon to live 25 miles from the nearest town. (Even if this is technically illegal at this point, I grew up praying in a public school, with teachers leading the prayers, on a daily basis in the 1970s and 1980s).

I understand the viewpoint. I just find it mildly terrifying. It bothers me that you don't have to find it so terrifying. I know that's not your "fault," obviously. And I don't wish that you had to be terrified--I don't actually think it is good for people. But I wish you could understand what it is like to experience your body as violable, and what it is like to feel intense pressure, from everyone you love, to submit to that view of your body as just, as, in fact, not just as the moral high ground, but as the only moral ground. And then to experience, not here--not from you L'Anima, as I appreciate the carefulness you always take in your argument--but in most other places, a perception that you are inherently too "biased" by virtue of experiencing your integrity as under attack to rationally discuss that law.

This logical distrust of the experiences of those who are most affected by a moral question as being incapable of "objectively" evaluating the question is ... I hardly know how to finish that statement. But it is relevant to the argument above that abolitionists, who often didn't believe (themselves, let alone their audiences) 100% in the humanity of black people, could then argue on other grounds against slavery, i.e., it's bad for white people and society as a whole.

There's nothing obviously "wrong" with that approach, except, well, everything.

So, agree to disagree, but with some recognition that the stakes of this debate are asymmetrical for the participants, and that that makes a difference.
 
 
pomegranate
03:57 / 28.02.06
alas, have you seen any hard and fast data that suggest that most people who are anti-choice feel that way even in cases of rape and incest? i would suggest that, besides the super fundamentalists, many if not most people who are anti-abortion are willing to put that aside if it's a case of rape or incest. as a vehement pro-choice person, as much as they scare me, i actually respect people who are against it no matter what much more than those who waffle in that way. i mean, if yr gonna be all about life, then it's not the fetus' fault that it's a product of rape. but the fact that so many people are willing to make an exception if it is rape or incest to me screams the fact that it's so much more about punishing women for their sexuality. (if only a subconscious punishment.)
p.s. big ups to everyone for not getting heated on such a sensitive subject, go barbelith.
(/a leetle off-the original topic, but i'm out of practice)
 
  

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