BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Children

 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:25 / 29.04.05
In work my human-pupa laden colleagues can talk of nothing else. If singleton life is narcist and mildly autistic, parental life is the polar opposite.

What _is_ the polar opposite of "mildly autistic"? Not autistic at all, or very autistic indeed?

Put another way, you're representing, as near as I can tell, parturition as a maturing point - a stage where the human animal passes a checkpoint and enters into another stage of being. Is this the case? And is there, as discussed above, anything much less self-absorbed about extending your field of focus onto a couple of extensions of yourself?
 
 
Nobody's girl
12:44 / 29.04.05
And is there, as discussed above, anything much less self-absorbed about extending your field of focus onto a couple of extensions of yourself?

Whilst I don't deny that many people do indeed see their offspring as extensions of themselves, I think we can all agree that it is "bad parenting" to do so.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:58 / 29.04.05
In the "you must be head cheerleader because I never was" sense, certainly... I was thinking of something a bit loser than that, though. Ms Triplets antithesised "me me me" with "them them them", but there's thems and thems... somebody who would do anything to protect their children is not necessarily goign to do anything to protect somebody who is not their child. So, you may be shifting focus from self to tribe, but does that represent a maturing beyond self-interest, or just a change in the terms by which self-interest is examined?
 
 
alas
18:47 / 17.09.05
I thought of this thread when I read this article in the Gaurdian today--

No Kids, Please, We're Selfish, by Lionel Shriver.

She's definitely enrolling in the school of thought that not to have children is a real kind of selfishness tinged with immaturity. Thoughts?
 
 
Leidan
11:38 / 18.09.05
I only had the stamina to read the first page of this very interesting and deep thread, but I think the above article highlights an important aspect which seemed to be neglected in previous discussion; the selfless, transcendent conception of reproduction. The penultimate concluding paragraph in Lionel Shriver's article sums this up fairly well:

"Surely the contemporary absorption with our own lives as the be-all and end-all ultimately hails from an insidious misanthropy - a lack of faith in the whole human enterprise. In its darkest form, the growing cohort of childless couples determined to throw all their money at Being Here Now - to take that step-aerobics class, visit Tanzania, put an addition on the house while making no effort to ensure there's someone around to inherit the place when the party is over - has the quality of the mad, slightly hysterical scenes of gleeful abandon that fiction writers craft when imagining the end of the world."

I do not necessarily support the conclusions she makes regarding the philosophical/emotional source of 'the contemporary absorption with our own lives as the be-all and end-all', nor would generalise it too strongly across the population - what I think is important here is moving the perspective outside the individual and looking at yourself, or the west, from outside - or comparative to other groups.

The picture that comes to me when I do this is similar to the one that comes through in the article; unless it is dominated by a great work of some kind, a life without children seems - apologies for the phenomenology - morose and stunted in some way; it acts simply within the logic of present society - it lacks the transcendental, the feeling for that that will endure, lacks a connection to the world outside our own lives and outside modern society.

The desire to have children thus seems to me to be an aspect of the mystical, a way of connecting with the flow millennia - an act of faith - by creating further life, by undertaking a creative act which is not fundamentally bound by our own minds and societies.

There are of course many ways to fulfil the desire for the transcendental - the writer of the article fulfils an arguably less strong version of this desire by contributing her writing to society. Nor do I mean to say that people are like 'oh my I am feeling mystical, let us reproduce and connect with the firmament'. But I think the desire to have children nearly always has something of the mystical in it - just 'that feeling' mentioned often at the start of the thread - while the rationalisations to not have children often seem to be fundamentally lacking that aspect of the mystical - circles bound closely by logic or the immediate world around us.

Of course, there is nothing provably negative about an absence of vague notions of 'faith' or 'transcendence' in the actions of an individual or group, but... it does seem like something is lacking; that people are not looking outside themselves enough in such cases.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:06 / 19.09.05
Well, I definitely think the idea of having children as this kind of deep mystical thing that gives your life meaning is out there and that a lot of people buy into it. I also think it's risible bullshit.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:45 / 19.09.05
But I think the desire to have children nearly always has something of the mystical in it

Isn't the mysticism of children located around the notion that their life is ongoing when yours has ended?
 
 
Ex
10:19 / 19.09.05
Leidan, I think it’s worth reading the rest of the thread, because we’ve had some interesting interrogations of what selfishness/selflessness and outward-directed and inward-directed might mean, from people who do want/have had children, and those who don’t/haven’t.

the rationalisations to not have children often seem to be fundamentally lacking that aspect of the mystical - circles bound closely by logic or the immediate world around us.

I disagree. To pick the most obvious examples – I’m working down the corridor from some nuns. They believe they’ve been called by God to serve God and the community through prayer and good works. This has precluded having kids (although they may end up raising them through foster care). It’s pretty bloody transcendental and outward-focused.

In contrast, one person who tried to persuade me to have kids wanted to do so because he didn't want to be alone in his old age. This was not as part of a consistent honouring of the ideal of family; he didn't like his own parents, or want to spend time with them. He was banking on (put charitably) a kind of karmic system of exchange where if you put yourself out to that extent, then you will somehow receive - or less charitably, on using enormous amounts of emotional blackmail on his child.

So, reasons to avoid having kids, and reasons to have kids. I don’t see why one has to be any more bounded, transcendent, or immediate-worldy than the other.

I’m worried that debate will break down between child-having or –planning and child-free people in the same way that I see discussions between atheists and theists becoming problematic. Both parties can lose the ability to see that the other structures their thinking differently, and only see the alternative as either a bulgy, pointless excrescence intruding into a working life/ thought system, or a big echoing gap in the middle of the life/system. For instance, Shriver asks all the child-free people in her article what they intend to do, in the absence of children, to ‘redeem’ their life – I was pleased when one responded that she didn’t feel her life needed to be redeemed. It’s like someone who has built their life around X saying to someone else, well, you don’t have X – what serves its function in your otherwise bare, meaningless life? It’s not necessarily the case that their life, and ways of thinking, are structured similarly. The question may be functionally meaningless.

So I could tell you what I intend to do with my life which is just as shiny and transcendent as having kids, and probably make a good case for it. But I think that would be assenting in itself to the idea that the connection between having kids and being outwards-directed and transcendent is logical, and everything else is a sideways substitute that has to tapdance for its dinner. Which I don’t think it is. It’s like a theist saying to me ‘If you don’t believe in God, what do you believe in?’ I could answer that on their terms, and bring out some fairly foundational beliefs in my life, but ultimately, I don’t build my world around a central supreme premise in the way they do. And I don’t build my understanding of my worth around my reproduction and childrearing capacities. I have a lot of interest in people who do, and don’t ask them questions like ‘Why would you want to do that anyway?’ and ‘Isn’t living with the idea of God a pain in the neck?’.

Also, "the logic of present society" seems to me very much to be bounded by the expectation that life - particularly the lives of women – involves having children. I know there’s a lot of debate about the ‘me’ society, but the expectation of having kids is fairly constant. A lot of people have children because they cannot envisage their lives otherwise. I think it’s great that you can see, in that, a kind of daily touching of the transcendent. But women who don’t reproduce catch an incredible amount of criticism, and often have to think hard about their choices and defend them strenuously; the idea that they’re just running in little grooves laid down by society seems a little off-centre.

And to be honest, it may be ‘an important aspect which seemed to be neglected in previous discussion’ but I feel it’s one of most common cultural response to intentional childlessness. Maybe it hasn’t cropped up in this thread because an interesting exchange of very varied viewpoints needs an extra effort to be polite, and using phrases like ‘morose and stunted in some way’ is more likely to close down discussion.
 
 
Leidan
10:43 / 19.09.05
Well, I definitely think the idea of having children as this kind of deep mystical thing that gives your life meaning is out there and that a lot of people buy into it. I also think it's risible bullshit.

I tried to avoid giving the impression that that was what I was saying - the passive conception of an action like having children as somehow embuing you with an aura of depth and faith is certainly pretty unhealthy. I was expanding on the first sentence of the quoted paragraph - the difference between the *initial* desire (or lack of) to have children being grounded in the logic of our present lives compared with a faith in something beyond them, which I think children can certainly represent. So in this conception, it doesn't give YOUR life meaning, but it is indicative of the faith that there IS meaning BEYOND your life.

The two imagined personalities I and to a lesser extent the writer of the article set up here - a happy, far-seeing faith-imbued person and an opposing mean-spirited modern egotistical person, are entirely fictional, and people lie at infinite points between them and beyond them, but they are useful tools to make a few general observations.

And yeah I guess that could be part of it Nina, though I would not like to define any mystical feelings... also in this context, to make things clearer, I understand faith and mystical emotions to be highly related, if not interchangeable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:59 / 19.09.05
Maybe it hasn’t cropped up in this thread because an interesting exchange of very varied viewpoints needs an extra effort to be polite, and using phrases like ‘morose and stunted in some way’ is more likely to close down discussion.

Indeed.

The desire to have children thus seems to me to be an aspect of the mystical, a way of connecting with the flow millennia - an act of faith - by creating further life, by undertaking a creative act which is not fundamentally bound by our own minds and societies.

Interestingly, when looking at this, we might note that gerbils breed. Left to their own devices, gerbils go at it like knives. To the best of my knowledge, not one incidence of frantic squeaky gerbil copulation has been accompanied by any spiritual connection with the flow of millenia (or decades, from a non-gerbil perspective), or any act of faith. It is perfectly possible that this springs from my lack of gerbil lore, but I can't shake the feeling that a gerbil writing a boook would be a fair chunk more transcendent than a gerbil having a litter of small gerbils, which is rather more bound into gerbil society.

Another element of the self-critique that Lionel Shriver applies in that article is what I tend to call the Schuster-Slatt argument. It's not that _people_ aren't breeding - the Yemenis alone will provide a perfectly credible balance to the falling fertility of Highgate - but rather that the wrong people are breeding. If the educated middle classes do not reproduce, they will be swamped by commoners and foreigners, the victims of the gallimorfery of diversions they created for themselves. So, childlessness is bourgeois, but the punishment for childlessness is the slow death of bourgeois society. It's a riddle, but not necessarily an insoluble one.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:23 / 19.09.05
Oh, well it goes without saying that the Shriver piece is hopelessly reactionary and racist apart from anything else:

The long-dominant populations in most of Europe are contracting, and maybe by the time they're minorities in their own countries they will have rights, too - among them at least the right to feel a little sad.

What is she like?
 
 
Persephone
12:01 / 19.09.05
The two imagined personalities I and to a lesser extent the writer of the article set up here - a happy, far-seeing faith-imbued person and an opposing mean-spirited modern egotistical person, are entirely fictional, and people lie at infinite points between them and beyond them, but they are useful tools to make a few general observations.

To be useful in this context, I think you need four imagined personalities: happy, far-seeing faith-imbued with children; happy, far-seeing faith-imbued without children; mean-spirited modern egotistical with children; and mean-spirited modern egotistical without children. In which case, I think that we would no longer be talking about children...
 
 
Leidan
08:59 / 20.09.05
gerbils

I do not think the Gerbil Thesis is valid considering their lack of relevance to human society.

As a commentary on society it looks like you guys are right to critisize the article as having some dubious assumptions, though I think it still has value if looked at as an individual talking to an individual about personal motivations and so on.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:44 / 20.09.05
Yes, but at that point it has almost no use, does it? It's just about what Lionel Shriver and her monocultural mates think about having children, and then how Lionel Shriver wants to present how she thinks about it for a specific audience. So, let's not talk about Lionel Shriver. Let's talk about gerbils. You said:

The picture that comes to me when I do this is similar to the one that comes through in the article; unless it is dominated by a great work of some kind, a life without children seems - apologies for the phenomenology - morose and stunted in some way; it acts simply within the logic of present society - it lacks the transcendental, the feeling for that that will endure, lacks a connection to the world outside our own lives and outside modern society.

The assumption behind this is that having a child has more weight than anything else a gerbil can do. This is because gerbils have no capacity to perform great works. Gerbil reproduction, however, is a simple biological function and presumably wots not of transcendence either.

However. Humans can achieve great works, and can also have children. Your proposition is that one or the other of these is an acceptable use of a human life. This, you appear not to have stated but one might imply, is because not only childrearing but also the creation of great works "operate outside the logic of modern society". What you mean by this is unclear. Possibly that childbirth is a sort of heritage industry, like crofting, and therefore that doing it puts one in touch with one's ancestors and one's successors in the same way that a really good, lasting bit of crofting might. Without one of these pursuits - childrearing or great-work-creating - a human life is "stunted or morose".

Now, this does seem rather to recommend childbirthing/rearing as the best possible option for avoiding a stunted and morose life, as childrearing is a pretty common phenomenon. In fact, I would go so far as to say that embarking on a great work, by your model, is a very bad idea, as one's chances of success are profoundly limited, whereas having kids is very simple. From there we can wander off into some socially dodgy stuff aboout how lucky those earthy people with high birth rates and high infant mortality are to be so connected to the cycles of transcendence.

However, this seems to romanticise something gerbils simply get on with as a matter of course to the point of being equivalent to the creation of a "great work". Of course, we don't know what a great work means to you - for example, is "We Need to Talk About Kevin" a great work? Is working in a maternity ward a great work?

It also seems to suggest that childrearing occupies the same status as a great work - that is, something that consumes and defines one's existence. While this may be the case in the early stages, it seems a bit of a cop-out to assume it in all cases. Bertrand Russell, for example, was a parent, if apparently not a great one. Likewise Bill Clinton. In either case, can we identify their escape from a "morose, stunted" life as a result of their works (if they are judged to be great) or as a result of their status as parents?

We then come to the distinction between childbirth and childrearing. At its most basic, there is one in a standard man-lady coupling who pushes the baby out and one who does not. To assume that these two status provide an equal experience of transcendence might be seen as a bit masculine. Therefore, presumably we located this access to transcendence in the raising of children rather than the simple extrusion of children from the human body. This, however, is pretty distinct from the birthing process. So, question. Is having your own children, in the sense of two impregnate, one squeezes, two raise, equivalent to a greater work (a Clean Air bill rather than an airport novel, say) than raising somebody else's child, or raising a child from the age of 4 rather than from birth? Lionel Shriver, for example, could at the age of 47 probably get herself together and, even if some agencies would hesitate to recommend a 47-year old with a novel out a mother not liking her child for adoption, get herself a kid, possibly from one of those countries which are coonnecting enough with transcendence to create a surplus. Given the choice between this and being stunted and morose, surely she will do so, unless the writing of We Need to Talk About Kevin provides a sufficiently great work-count to innoculate her against the necessity. So, faced with the possibility of having a child, and thus being sure of evading moroseness and achondroplasty, and not having a child, everybody without both commitment to and confidence in their great work is going to go for it. How closely dooes the action have to be to the standard practice to provide this insurance? Vaginal over caesarian? "Natural" over inseminated? Own over adopted? Adopted over fostered? If you are to build those binaries, where do the lines go?

There may be some useful stuff on the intervening three pages of discussion on this, btw.
 
 
alas
19:48 / 20.09.05
. . . what I tend to call the Schuster-Slatt argument. It's not that _people_ aren't breeding - the Yemenis alone will provide a perfectly credible balance to the falling fertility of Highgate - but rather that the wrong people are breeding.

Ironically, over here on the Victorian side of the Atlantic, the NYTimes has once again published one of their periodic reports on, essentially the triumph of Schuster-Slatt.

About every 3-4 months the Times features a story about high-powered women opting out of the workforce to devote time to motherhood. Although you can, at the moment read the whole thing here, the Times require you to register and very quickly pull things into a pay-per-view archive. So here's some excerpts from today's piece, on Ivy League women students who are planning to stay home with the kids:

Many Women at Elite Colleges Set Career Path to Motherhood
By LOUISE STORY

Cynthia Liu is precisely the kind of high achiever Yale wants: smart (1510 SAT), disciplined (4.0 grade point average), competitive (finalist in Texas oratory competition), musical (pianist), athletic (runner) and altruistic (hospital volunteer). And at the start of her sophomore year at Yale, Ms. Liu is full of ambition, planning to go to law school.

So will she join the long tradition of famous Ivy League graduates? Not likely. By the time she is 30, this accomplished 19-year-old expects to be a stay-at-home mom.

"My mother's always told me you can't be the best career woman and the best mother at the same time," Ms. Liu said matter-of-factly. "You always have to choose one over the other."

At Yale and other top colleges, women are being groomed to take their place in an ever more diverse professional elite. It is almost taken for granted that, just as they make up half the students at these institutions, they will move into leadership roles on an equal basis with their male classmates.

There is just one problem with this scenario: many of these women say that is not what they want.

Many women at the nation's most elite colleges say they have already decided that they will put aside their careers in favor of raising children. Though some of these students are not planning to have children and some hope to have a family and work full time, many others, like Ms. Liu, say they will happily play a traditional female role, with motherhood their main commitment.

Much attention has been focused on career women who leave the work force to rear children. What seems to be changing is that while many women in college two or three decades ago expected to have full-time careers, their daughters, while still in college, say they have already decided to suspend or end their careers when they have children.

"At the height of the women's movement and shortly thereafter, women were much more firm in their expectation that they could somehow combine full-time work with child rearing," said Cynthia E. Russett, a professor of American history who has taught at Yale since 1967. "The women today are, in effect, turning realistic."

...

For most of the young women who responded to e-mail questions, a major factor shaping their attitudes seemed to be their experience with their own mothers, about three out of five of whom did not work at all, took several years off or worked only part time.

"My stepmom's very proud of my choice because it makes her feel more valuable," said Kellie Zesch, a Texan who graduated from the University of North Carolina two years ago and who said that once she had children, she intended to stay home for at least five years and then consider working part time. "It justified it to her, that I don't look down on her for not having a career."
...
For many feminists, it may come as a shock to hear how unbothered many young women at the nation's top schools are by the strictures of traditional roles.

"They are still thinking of this as a private issue; they're accepting it," said Laura Wexler, a professor of American studies and women's and gender studies at Yale. "Women have been given full-time working career opportunities and encouragement with no social changes to support it.

"I really believed 25 years ago," Dr. Wexler added, "that this would be solved by now."

Angie Ku, another of Ms. Liu's roommates who had a stay-at-home mom, talks nonchalantly about attending law or business school, having perhaps a 10-year career and then staying home with her children.

"Parents have such an influence on their children," Ms. Ku said. "I want to have that influence. Me!"

She said she did not mind if that limited her career potential.

"I'll have a career until I have two kids," she said. "It doesn't necessarily matter how far you get. It's kind of like the experience: I have tried what I wanted to do."

Ms. Ku added that she did not think it was a problem that women usually do most of the work raising kids.

"I accept things how they are," she said. "I don't mind the status quo. I don't see why I have to go against it."
...


Sigh!, says I. How does this read, especially to those of you across the Atlantic?
 
 
grant
01:11 / 21.09.05
Going up the thread in brief:

* Why are two of the three women quoted in that NYT article East Asian?

* This is nearly invisible to most people, but the "own vs. adopted" division makes me feel kind of weird. Is? Isn't? Mine? Whose? I'm no longer sure what "own" means.

* That ties in to some of the assumptions Lionel (why is a woman named Lionel?) seems to be making about what parenthood entails. I mean, not only is there no room for where my family would fit on her spectrum of choosing not to make babies/choosing to be parents (heritage? nation?), but also... well, this bit:

Remarkably resistant to governmental manipulation, it is the sum total of millions of single, deeply private decisions by people like me and a surprisingly large number of people I know.

We're not having kids.

Western fertility started to dive in the 70s - the same era when, ironically, the likes of alarmist population guru Paul Ehrlich were predicting that we would all soon be balancing on our one square foot of earth per person, like angels on the head of a pin. Numerous factors have contributed to the Incredible Shrinking Family: the introduction of reliable contraception, the wholesale entry of women into the workforce, delayed parenthood and thus higher infertility, the fact that children no longer till your fields but expect your help in putting a downpayment on a massive mortgage.


Sorry, but in my lexicon, "fertility" isn't a matter of choice -- it's a medical or biological status. Delayed parenthood may be linked to a *kind* of infertility, but it seems like some sloppy blurring going on there. I can't blame Shriver exclusively, since that conception (ho ho) seems to be tied into the term "Total Fertility Rate."

Who calls China & Yemen "the poor countries," anyway?

And Gabriella? Oh, Gabriella? Gabriella concedes, "If people like me don't reproduce, civilisation may be the worse for it. On both my mother's and my father's sides, I come from generations of academics, historians, diplomats - thinkers and doers - and as the years go by I begin to see that, far from being an exception or maverick, I am, in fact, the very obvious carrier of a certain genetic inheritance."

Fetch me my axe.
 
 
grant
01:14 / 21.09.05
We owe our very contentment - which Hurricane Katrina reminds us heavily relies on potable water and toilets

Two axes.
 
 
Ex
09:10 / 21.09.05
And more on the fear of the middle classes dying out: France is proposing to offer cash incentives, salary linked, to women who have a third child.
Now, this applies to all women. But they've allegedly raised the amount of cash to appeal to 'high flyers' . And I keep hearing it reported as 'France is paying middle class women to have kids.'
 
 
Quantum
10:33 / 21.09.05
I had to present a study on this once- the common conclusion on the declining population growth (UK at least) is that it would be solved by increased sexual equality.

Most women would like to have (more) children but increasingly don't, because they have to do all the housework as well as have a career that they get paid less for than a man would (in a nutshell). I remember the phrase 'If you take care of women's issues population will take care of itself'.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:58 / 21.09.05
"My mother's always told me you can't be the best career woman and the best mother at the same time," Ms. Liu said matter-of-factly. "You always have to choose one over the other."

She got into Yale? She's 19 years old, she thinks she can make decisions like that for the rest of her life and she got into Yale? There's so much wrong with the publication of this article. Why did they even let it into the paper? It's nonsense.
 
 
Jack Fear
00:36 / 22.09.05
Nina: Explain yourself, if you would. From your remarks, you appear to believe that Ms. Liu is operating from an entirely false premise. Do you think there is no real, necessary tradeoff between having a high-powered corporate career and being the kind of mother—or, indeed, the kind of parent—that Ms. Liu wants to be? That it's illusory, or simply a form of social programming?
 
 
Loomis
08:28 / 22.09.05
And I keep hearing it reported as 'France is paying middle class women to have kids.'

Australia is already paying people to have children. $AUS2000 per child I think, off the top of my head. This policy certainly fits into the racist thinking mentioned above. How does it make sense to pay people to have children who won't contribute to the nation's coffers for 20 years, while at the same time turning away immigrants who are of working age and could be paying tax immediately to cover the bill for the ageing population?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:31 / 22.09.05
In ten years time she could be married and expecting a child and her partner could decide that he would like to stay at home and look after their child. She has no idea what the future may bring. The suggestion is, I think, that she believes in the traditional family structure and expects it to happen for her but that's rarely how things actually work out for people. She could be divorced and have to work, she could be married, umarried, she could be a single mother... I think the assumption that things are going to be indefinitely structured in the way you expect is a foolish one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:57 / 22.09.05
Possibly more apposite is the question of whether it is necessary to be the best mother and/or the best worker, and to make a choice about which you want to be before the age of being either. Simply being a _good mother and a good worker might be enough. In fact, there may be ways in which the one complements the other, in terms of life experience or buying power, say. At the risk of wearing my Nickskin suit, it need not be a zero-sum equation.

How does it make sense to pay people to have children who won't contribute to the nation's coffers for 20 years, while at the same time turning away immigrants who are of working age and could be paying tax immediately to cover the bill for the ageing population?

Well, presumably the argument is that immigrants cost more to process in the first place and also, ultimately, earn less and therefore pay less tax than white people, which may well be true but is not terribly desirable or wise. It is interesting, though - children tend to cost their parents and the state a fair whack, so might it not make good sense too outsource the actual breeding and just cherry-pick the surplus children from poorer countries, as one does with doctors?
 
 
Jack Fear
11:03 / 22.09.05
Nina: Thanks for the clarification. I was a bit confused because it sounded like you were questioning her essential premise, rather than her ability to predict her own future position within that paradigm.

And while I agree with your assessment re: the mutability and complexity of possible futures—in fact I expand on it somewhat, below—I wonder if maybe you aren't being a teensy bit harsh on Ms. Liu. None of us can know our own future, it's true—but we can make plans, and we can form informned expectations based on the norms of the socioeconomic circles in which we move. If Ms. Liu is surrounded by models of the kind of behavior she describes—brief, high-powered post-collegiate career followed by marriage to a "good provider" and subsequent full-time motherhood—then it might be perfectly reasonable for her to predictthe same for herself, barring unforeseen circumstances. It might not happen, but it's what she expects.

Haus:

Possibly more apposite is the question of whether it is necessary to be the best mother and/or the best worker, and to make a choice about which you want to be before the age of being either. Simply being a good mother and a good worker might be enough.

Oh, I fully agree. Ms. Liu might have been wiser to say something the lines of "You can't have the kind of career that I want right now while practicing the kind of parenting that I want to practice right now."

That does nothing to nullify her basic point, though; that there is a very real balancing act that goes for working parents—of both genders—between career and parenting. It's rendered even more complex by the fact that each element in the binary has its own associated demands and desires. There are days when having a career provides tremendous personal fulfillment, and days when it seems like no more than a necessary evil. There are days when parenthood is sheer bliss, and days when it's a joyless necessity.

And sometimes it does feel like a zero-sum game. If you are both worker and parent—and if you are, most likely it will be by necessity, not by choice; another element left out of Ms. Liu's equation—there will be times when you will find one role far more personally satisfying than the other. A good day at the office can compensate for a rough evening with the kids, or vice versa. And this is fluid over the courses of both your career and family life.

Now add another degree of complication: You will most likely be doing this in partnership and cooperation with another person, who will have hir own ego-needs, hir own ideas about fulfillment, hir own ideal ratio of work to family, hir own good days and bad days in both arenas.

This is of more-than-academic interest to me, since my own family is wrestling quite intimately with these notions of work and parenting, different paths towards personal fulfillment, and achieving a workable balance between demands and desires. I don't wish to muddy the waters with a lot of anecdotal evidence; suffice it to say that I'm following the debate quite keenly.
 
 
alas
22:46 / 22.09.05
that there is a very real balancing act that goes for working parents—of both genders—between career and parenting.

This is true to some degree, as is the point about work and childrearing having their ups and downs, but it remains true that women--at least in the US--are still the ones literally PAYING the price for this structure. We earn only about 75% of what men earn, largely as a result of this "balancing act." You're right that everything is not "money" but that gender wage-gap arguably is responsible for more than half of the poverty in this country. And in the US, being a stay-at-home mom with a "provider" means that you are dependent on that marriage for 1) your finances 2) your health insurance 3) your children's health insurance 4) your retirement. With 50% of all marriages ending up in divorce in the first 15 yrs., this is a dicey proposition (not to mention the kind of gender/heterosexulizing norming it seems designed to impose).

I am not convinced such a complete financial dependence is a choice without cost to the relationship: when one person brings in all the money and the other does "unpaid" work it can shape a relationship in weird, sometimes subtle ways, and sometimes against the
best intentions of the members of the couple.

Moreover, as a result of the lack of social/economic support for any alternative, family-friendly approach to a career, most top administrative positions remain in the hands of men, just because men 'are more "committed" to their work'!

I think these girls sound pretty naive, to be honest. And not a little snobbish. I know many women who have decided to sacrifice careers, or make serious concessions, for children, so I know that these women are not truly representative. As the rest of this thread suggests, the "selfish" argument can really cut both ways. Title this one, "Kids, please; we're Selfish." These women seem to have gotten to this place of receiving an Ivy league degree just to play with, just for the "enriched experience" to their own lives.
They seem to be having children for the same reason: "I just want this fun experience for myself." (And I don't trust those immigrant Nannies!) Solidarity? Huh?

This is, I realize probably not completely fair to them, but the article
didn't do them many favors, for me. (I especially thought the comment that
one woman was especially pleased that now her Mom's choice to stay home is
vindicated was, well, more sad than touching. What does it say about the
relationship, the mother, our society that that's an issue? Eewk)

I had not noticed the prevalence of East-Asian names in the article. Must mull.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:08 / 23.09.05
we can form informned expectations based on the norms of the socioeconomic circles in which we move.

But based on wide experience of those norms in recent years her expectations aren't informed. I don't have time to write about this now but will come back to the socioeconomic norms of a female stay-at-home Yale graduate later...
 
 
Jack Fear
11:14 / 23.09.05
While your experience may indeed be wide, it is by no mean all-encompassing.

I would respectfully suggest that Ms. Liu moves in different circles than you or I do, and your norms, or mine, are not universal, and may not apply to her.
 
 
grant
13:19 / 23.09.05
I had not noticed the prevalence of East-Asian names in the article. Must mull.

If I'm remembering correctly, the two Asian students out of the three interviewed were actually roommates....

I don't know what to make of it, but it stood out.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:41 / 24.09.05
Lazy journalist?
 
 
alas
13:11 / 24.09.05
Might be just laziness. It would seem, to me, still that social class rather than ethnicity is playing the biggest role in this article.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:34 / 24.09.05
Thought that kinda went without saying. This is Yale we're talking about...
 
 
alas
10:56 / 26.09.05
I guess what I mean, Jack, is that I needed to think through what difference ethnicity might make in the matrix of this article. I've had a Chinese high school student sharing my home for the last two years, and I have, through her and some of my daughter's other friends, become acquainted with a variety of Asian (i.e., mainly Chinese but also one Vietnamese) families.

From my limited experience, the gender norms are not identical to typical European-American norms, but I don't feel in a position to claim a super-nuanced understanding of those norms. (And I realize that there are some differences when one moves from one Asian culture to the next).

Hence my seeming stating of the obvious that it's safer to say class rather than ethnicity is playing the primary role. I still wouldn't rule out that some family norms that are more pronounced in Asian families may play some additional role for the two women specifically mentioned in the article.
 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
  
Add Your Reply