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Sax
13:57 / 10.02.05
As most 'Lithers know, my unstoppable sperm has led me to producing two children in the past two years.

I'm interested in what people think about breeding. Would you have kids? If yes, why? If not, why not? Do you think the world as it is at the moment is a good place to bring up children? If, by dint of biology or medical matters, you can't actually have children, would you consider adopting? What do you think of people who do have children?

Obviously, I'm not looking for a fight here, and won't turn this into a thread defending my decisions. I'm interested in the wider views and opinions about the whys, wherefores, rights and wrongs of breeding.

I'd like to hear from 'Lithers who have children, who resolutely never wish to have children, or who would like to have them in later life.

Also, possibly, for those who have children, how do you go about bringing them up with the best possible values? And how do you do discipline? Because that's one thing I am absolutely crap at.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:20 / 10.02.05
I don't think I'd make a good parent and god knows, I'm still too much of a child myself, I sulk when I don't get my way, I spill food and I occasionally watch Teletubbies on TV. But also we have too many people on this planet as it is, I feel that were i to procreate I'd have to spend most of the child's life apologising for bringing it into such a shitty state of affairs.

But ask me again in a few years if my sister has kids... I don't know whether I want to be an uncle either.
 
 
Sekhmet
18:52 / 10.02.05
I do plan to have children, but I do often wonder whether it's a good idea, given the state of the world. It sometimes seems rather selfish to want to procreate.

I think a large part of my motivation to do so stems from the (egotistical, and probably mistaken) belief that I can raise children in such a way that they will improve the world by existing. I labor under the delusion that they would automatically be talented, enthusiastic, lovable wunderkinder, and I fantasize about teaching them tolerance and love and strength and independence, and sending them off to save the human race.

In practice, I'm sure I'll screw them up as badly as most people screw their kids up, and they'll end up just as trapped in mediocrity as their parents, but it's nice to dream. Have to rationalize the biological drive to have them babies.

Plus, kids who were a mix of me and my husband would be really, really cute.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:52 / 10.02.05
Well never say never and all that, but the thought of having a family does tend to bring on a feeling of low-key anxiety. Whether this is to do with genuine concerns about the future of the planet I'm not sure - let's face it, it's not as if one or two kids are going to make any real difference, unless they've been mentioned in certain prophecies - and it could just be that I'm dragging my heels with regard to my duties as a productive member of modern, adult society. The two things wouldn't necessarily be unconnected though, and I can't help feeling that whatever else happens in terms in the environment and so on, the pressures any child born now is going to face by the time he or she hits say Twenty will be qualitatively different from anything us lot ( I'm assuming when I say that age 18 and over, though I'm a fair way over ) would have remotely conceived of, growing up.

At least to pick an admittedly cosseted, UK middle class example, when I were a lad, suicide, addiction, psycho-sexual trauma and being in hock to the bank for twenty odd grand at the age of 21 weren't really things you expected to run into personally much outside the pages of the new Brett Easton Ellis, whereas these days, apparently, it seems a bit different - 'Talking' about suicide, addiction, psycho-sexual trauma and so on has obviously always been a staple of the early Twenties college/pub/night club discussion, and hopefully it always will, but the brutal reality of that kind of debt is to a certain extent not eniterly discouraging the other ideas as lifestyle options.

And that's now... Add 20 odd years of worldwide government that seems to have no real ideas except more of the same, and as a father, I'd worry.

As a soon-to-be uncle actually, I'm borderline terrified, though that's possibly to do with fears of dropping the kid when I'm supposed to be holding it, so who knows.

And to not have kids or at least try to raise them is to arguably despair of the future, so you pays your money, I suppose, and you takes your choice.

And good luck Sax !

For sure, it seems, you are really firing the serious man
juice !
 
 
Sax
09:51 / 11.02.05
It sometimes seems rather selfish to want to procreate.

A strange thing: I used to think like that until we had our first, and as his personality and awareness began to develop, I started to think that it would have been rather selfish to not want to procreate.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:52 / 11.02.05
I really like the idea of passing a bit of me on to the future. I have very mixed feelings about having kids - I think I'm still essentially too selfish for kids at the moment, but after a recent 'scare' with my girlfriend I realised that if an accident were to occur, I would be happy to step to the challenge. I am also very broody when confronted by small children, although this is definitely tempered by the fact that I can hand them back when the going gets tough. I definitely want children at some point though. I simply feel that it would be a waste not to partake in this mindblowing experience..
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:03 / 11.02.05
But selfish on whose part? Would it have been selfish to deny the opportunity to exist to something that doesn't exist? That seems a curious position. I confess that, since in four posts we have managed both "having children is selfish" and "not having children is selfish", I'm not entirely clear on what ground we're breaking here.

So, what is selfish about having children? They consume resources, sure, so it's maybe selfish, but that takes us to the tragedy of the commons - if you don't have a child, somne other fucker is only going to get the slice of the Earth's resources that would otherwise have been devoured by baby Bungalow. See our lengthy and refreshingly hate-filled thread on whether stupid people should be allowed to breed elsewhere. It's selfish also perhaps because it does something unnecessary for no better reason than the urges of the parents - those urges being biological, social, whatever.

What's selfish about not having children? In a pure sense, it might be said to be selfish because children demand attention and finance that can otherwise be spent on oneself. So, a selfish person might decide not to breed in order to be able to spend time and money that would be spent on raising a child on their preferred pursuit. Mind you, if your child _is a preferred pursuit_, in what way is the rearing of it not a selfish act?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:16 / 11.02.05
I really like the idea of passing a bit of me on to the future. I have very mixed feelings about having kids - I think I'm still essentially too selfish for kids at the moment

This rather illustrates my question, which was being formulated when MacGyver posted. In what way is "passing a bit of me on to the future" not selfish, unless you believe sincerely that the world cannot do without your genes? Surely "selfish" here is being used uncritically to mean "desirous of things that having a child would make harder to do"?
 
 
Sax
11:44 / 11.02.05
But selfish on whose part? Would it have been selfish to deny the opportunity to exist to something that doesn't exist? That seems a curious position. I confess that, since in four posts we have managed both "having children is selfish" and "not having children is selfish", I'm not entirely clear on what ground we're breaking here.

Yes, that's why I prefaced my point with "A strange thing". The sentiment doesn't make much sense at all; but then many emotions associated with children have that problem, I suppose.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:03 / 11.02.05
OK... then can you explain it? I don't mean to gripe, but I think one of the problems with discussions about childing/childlessness is that appeals are made to a notionally universal but incomprehensible set of ordering concepts that are clearly not actually universal. So, if you feel it would have been selfish not to want to have had a child, even though that doesn't make sense, would it be worth considering whether it can be made to make sense?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:20 / 11.02.05
But surely the desire to have children, while not being universal is fairly widespread. And if you accept an evolutionary slant on it, you'd expect there to be an irrational drive to procreate evidenced by some people (exactly how many isn't clear from this kind of argument, but it seems to be a sizeable proportion). I mean, kids are a drain on resources and time and many parents have to make a lot of sacrifices to have them. It seems pretty self evident that the desire to have them is to be located on some pre rational level. "It just feels right" is probably a pretty accurate summation of the individual's perspective.

As to moral repsonsibilities...if you value human society, or more accurately the soceity you find yourself in, then since it needs children to continue you might see a need for *some* people to breed. I think you can argue here that there is a communal responsibility to take care of children, if not to have children. That said, while overpopulation is an issue, a sharp drop in population could be pretty ugly too. This means that if there is a moral imperative, it is rather complex. Probably best to just leave it to people who can't explain their motivations while having a policy of making contraception easily available.
 
 
Smoothly
12:31 / 11.02.05
Personally, I feel no urge to breed. This is partly because I like my life too much as it is, but I also doubt that I could handle the responsibility or the heartache (as my family tree's hacked into decline, at least I'm spared the pain of ever saying goodbye).
Sax, why did you have children? Also, a question I often feel an urge to ask - without really expecting an honest answer in all cases: Have you at any stage regretted it? See there seems to be this assumption that while you might regret *not* having children (people will often cite concerns about growing old alone as part of the motivation for having a family), no one will regret having them. Indeed, I've never met a parent who said they did - but lots of children are abandoned, so it must happen. I know people whom I *suspect* regret it, but of course it's not something you're likely to be inclined to admit. As a result I have fear that it's a decision I'm more likely to rue than the superficial evidence would suggest.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:50 / 11.02.05
I think I meant 'selfish' in so much as I'm not really in a good position to raise a child - I still have a hard enough time managing my own finaces without the additional responsibility of someone else . Plus, on a really shallow level, I like 'stuff' and enjoy a relatively unconstrained existence. So in that respect I feel unready for kid-dom. This is different from the 'selfishness' of continuing my genetic heritage surely. To be honest I have little belief in any kind of afterlife except for a genetic one, and as such 'selfishly' desire to leave a trace of me to experience the future - equally I find it fascinating to think I'm carrying a genetic stew of my ancestors with me now, and perhaps feel a responsibility to continue the process. But the important thing is that whatever life i take part in conceiving will be different than anyone who's ever come before, and in a way I feel indebted to allow that to happen. I don't know, I'm a bit tired and emotional today. Tomorrow I'll probably recant it all as new age tosh...
 
 
Sax
13:16 / 11.02.05
Haus: So, if you feel it would have been selfish not to want to have had a child, even though that doesn't make sense, would it be worth considering whether it can be made to make sense?

Okay, I'll try. Right up until the moment that the child is born and you see it squirming around, pumping its lungs with air and covered in vermix, it's pretty much an abstract concept. For nine months it's just a thing. You can choose names and give it a cute nickname and get the sex from the scan and all that, but it's still pretty much just something that will be coming along later.

And then it's there. And it's no longer an it. It's a he or a she and - I swear this is the weirdest thing - you have a sudden and definite overwhelming love for this thing. How and why this should be, I don't know - primeval protection instincts, I don't know. But suddenly you love this stranger as much as you've ever loved anyone. And you can't explain why - you don't love them for their personality, because they don't really have one. And they're generally not much to look at. But love them you do.

And then you start to retcon your life. You can't remember a time when you didn't love this thing, you can't imagine not loving them. And in a weird, strange, inexplicable way, you sometimes, in the dead of night as you're lying there listening for them to cry out, you wonder how you could really have had that discussion where you said maybe we should wait a year before having kids, we really can't afford it when if you'd followed your head instead of your heart the precise collision of genes and chromosomes that make up "that little lad" wouldn't have happened, the stars would have been aligned differently, and he would never have existed.

And I'm sorry if that is about as far from a Head Shop post as you can get, but it's the only way I can answer Haus's question.

L'Anima: And if you accept an evolutionary slant on it, you'd expect there to be an irrational drive to procreate evidenced by some people (exactly how many isn't clear from this kind of argument, but it seems to be a sizeable proportion). I mean, kids are a drain on resources and time and many parents have to make a lot of sacrifices to have them. It seems pretty self evident that the desire to have them is to be located on some pre rational level. "It just feels right" is probably a pretty accurate summation of the individual's perspective.

Pretty much spot on. I'm 35; Mrs Sax got pregnant when I was 33. I hadn't been nursing a burning desire to have children for months or years previously. Something just clicked; some biological or mental switch was thrown. Suddenly the idea of having children didn't seem like a horrific prospect which would massively curtail our lives. It seemed like a positive, life-affirming option. We discussed it, of course. The world's a shit place. Should we bring a kid into it? Why the hell not. Perhaps, just perhaps, we could bring our kids up just right and maybe they would be the ones to make a difference to the world. Christ knows, I've all but given up on most of my generation.

Smoothly: Sax, why did you have children? Also, a question I often feel an urge to ask - without really expecting an honest answer in all cases: Have you at any stage regretted it?

Hopefully the bits above answer the first bit. It isn't an exact science. It isn't like deciding to get a mortgate or deciding to start a standing order for Seven Soldiers or deciding to start a thread in the Head Shop when you really know you haven't the brain-power to see it through. It's a mess of emotional and neurotic and knee-jerk and heart-led responses.

Have I ever regretted it? Only in the small ways, for a fraction of a second, when you get a hardback copy of The Very Hungry Caterpillar upside your nose from a toddler while you're desperately trying to wipe shit off the arse of a baby. There are also those moments when it's Friday night and you could murder a pint down the pub but to get there you'd have to organise baby sitters and by the time you had done it would be closing time anyway. But I think only the hardest heart and the meanest soul could possibly look at a child and think I wish you didn't exist.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:23 / 11.02.05
Shit Sax, that was a great post.
 
 
Smoothly
13:55 / 11.02.05
I think only the hardest heart and the meanest soul could possibly look at a child and think I wish you didn't exist.

That sounds completely right to me. But that's the power of love, isn't it. I suppose, rather than 'regret', I was more wondering how many people have children and later think, 'Actually, this was a bad idea'. I mean, if I bought a dog, I'm sure I would grow to love it very quickly - and could never wish non-existance on it. But, still, I shouldn't get a dog. It would be, and continue to be a Bad Idea. Anyone who knew my circumstances would agree that I shouldn't get a dog. I think Battersea Dogs' Home would sooner put a dog down than give it to me. That you'll love something isn't a good reason for getting it, it just makes it a happier experience for you if you do.
That's not directed at Sax, by the way (although I do wonder whether the experience of having one - as you described at the end of the third paragraph - makes you think more about the babies you're *not* having).

I'm trying to get to grips with why people *want* to have children rather than why enjoy the ones they do have. It's that feeling of 'rightness' that L'Anima mentioned, and Sax related, that's the key, and I just don't know what kind of rightness that is.

I find it fascinating to think I'm carrying a genetic stew of my ancestors with me now, and perhaps feel a responsibility to continue the process. - MacGyver

I want to better understand this line of thought - because I think it's pretty common. For a start, aren't we all carrying much the same genetic stew? My ancestors are your ancestors. On the grand genetic scheme of things, aren't all our genes pretty much identical?
What I'm getting at is why might MacGyver not be satisfied that Sax and others are passing it on for him? Aren't there already *loads* of MacGyver's genetic traces shaping up to experience the future? If the ability to pass this information on was exceptionally rare, I could better understand why a person with that ability might feel duty bound, but it isn't. If this mysterious 'rightness' was somehow related to a moral rightness I might feel I was getting somewhere in my comprehension.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:05 / 11.02.05
I thought I made it clear that the uniqueness of whatever progeny I 'produce' (because, let's be honest, my part is over fairly painlessly) is the thing that interests me.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:19 / 11.02.05
Re: The "selfishness" of choosing not to procreate...

There's a saying that we do not inherit the world from our parents—we borrow it from our children. And if you don't have kids, well, then, you never have to give it back, do you?

It is far easier to maintain one's own delusions of immortality when one is childless. A parent is crushingly aware of his or her own impending obsolescence at all times.

That's a beast to live with, sometimes, and it's not for everybody. It's surely not for anyone who needs to be the most important person in hir own life.

You know. A selfish person.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:23 / 11.02.05
Perhaps Smoothly's point is that they are not unique - or rather, that they are, but that uniqueness is only as startling as the uniqueness of every guineau pig or every toad. Genetically, and vbery probably physiologically and psychologically, any person's child is likely to be a lot like lots of other people's children...

Which doesn't mean that they are not beautiful and important little people, or that they should not be produced and cherished, but there's unique and unique.

Anna said something interesting further up - that:

I think you can argue here that there is a communal responsibility to take care of children, if not to have children.

That sounds quite simple, but is actually quite subversive... for starters, it means MacGuyver's motivation, being based on the specific production of a specific genetic cocktail, is possibly not the prime form, and may not actually speak to a social good. Likewise, Sax describes looking at *his child* - something that was created by him and Mrs Sax - and being overwhelmed with love. That's *a* way to have children, but certainly not the only way, so what happens without that mystical, inexplicable moment? Is there a supplementary set of "sensible" childrearing actions and/or emotions?
 
 
Smoothly
15:33 / 11.02.05
I think I see what you mean, MacGyver - an urge to express one's own uniqueness. Connected to the idea that everyone has a novel in them, I suppose, and that that in itself can be the motivation to write it, lest it be lost forever when you die. It's only just dawning on me that the urge to have children is a *creative* urge.

It is far easier to maintain one's own delusions of immortality when one is childless.

Can you expand on that, Jack? Is it just exposure to people who expect to outlive you that crushes the illusion? It also seems at odds with the desire expressed by MacGyver to have kids in order to pass a "bit of himself" on into the future.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:42 / 11.02.05
Was Sax not saying that the moment the child appears an actual nurturing feeling equally appears - a biological precedent? Just as a cat gives birth and 'knows' it has to look after it's offspring? It may not be the unquantifiable 'love' but it's probably akin to the powerful sensation that Sax describes.
I am aware that some mother's respond with disgust or horror at the appearance of their sprog, so it is not a given that this will be the response.
In my experience, friends who have pro-created describe a 'white-light' sensation, wherein one's world (as Sax so eloquently described) changes in the blink of an eye. I have yet to experience anything that powerful in my life, so I welcome the experience.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:55 / 11.02.05
Is it just exposure to people who expect to outlive you that crushes the illusion?

Yeah. It's a bit abstract and hard to express, I know, but...

It's not so much the illusion of immortality, it's more an illusion of our place in the bigger picture. We feel, when we're younger, that When I end, History, in some way, ends with me—but the presence of children puts the lie to that. We all sort of feel ourselves to be perfect circles, whole and complete unto ourselves—and we may be. But when you've got kids, your perfect circle is a link in a larger chain, and once you know it, you never forget it.

It also seems at odds with the desire expressed by MacGyver to have kids in order to pass a "bit of himself" on into the future.

That's a concept I frequently hear voiced by people who don't have kids, and almost never by people who actually do.

Purely anecdotal evidence, that, and as such useless, but there it is. And to me it suggests that, while parenting may seem in the abstract to be a means of perpetuating oneself forwards through time, in practice it entails, rather, being replaced—being made redundant—being dumped from your role in the long-running soap we call "History" to make room for a new crop of characters who test better with our focus groups, so sorry.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:59 / 11.02.05
Was Sax not saying that the moment the child appears an actual nurturing feeling equally appears - a biological precedent? Just as a cat gives birth and 'knows' it has to look after it's offspring? It may not be the unquantifiable 'love' but it's probably akin to the powerful sensation that Sax describes.

Well, quite. So what if you're a stepparent, or part of a group who are raising a child without being its biological parents? What if you want a child but don't, purt bluntly, have the equipment to create one with your partner of choice, or you don't want to create a new child when so many children are in care waiting to be adopted? There are more ways in which one can find oneself looking after a child than a man and a woman having sex and subsequently being delivered of a child. So, what's the difference emotionally? Are these others not going to get that flash, or does it happen somewhere else? I'm suspicious of this idea that one instinctively wants to have a child and then one instinctively loves it - not because it is necessarily untrue, but because it's tempting to think of it as complete.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:04 / 11.02.05
I'm suspicious of this idea that one instinctively wants to have a child and then one instinctively loves it - not because it is necessarily untrue, but because it's tempting to think of it as complete.

I'm not sure I follow this—is there word missing here? Or am I just being thick?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:21 / 11.02.05
Potentially neither, I think... I don't think there's a word missing - I was drawing attention to the fact that there is a temptation to think of the idea that a child is born to parents, who then love it as a direct result as the only way that one "parents". Sax mentioned adoption above, but we're talking about the immediate response to seeing the newborn child that has emerged from own or partner's fluffy bits - be it paradigm-shifting emotion or aberrant revulsion - and about the perpetuation of DNA, when those are not necessarily relevant to other experiences of having a child.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:27 / 11.02.05
Perhaps the desire to raise children is the biological imperative, and the way in which we choose to do so the practical application? Hence, as you say, those who cannot or choose not to 'give birth' can still raise children.
It is interesting - I've never really questioned why I should or would have children beyond how it would affect me directly (there's that selfish thing again...). Of course I've entertained the idea that to bring a child into the world is irresponsible or even cruel, but at my core is quite a firm belief I one day will have children. Shit, I may not be able to for all I know! Either way though Haus you're right in that the nurture and care of children is the important thing, and that is something I personally feel I must engage with in my lifetime. It does seem (again from secondhand, but intimate experience) that having a child removes a good deal of existensial angst simply because of the sheer amount of work children are!
 
 
Smoothly
16:41 / 11.02.05
This thread is open on two fronts, isn't it. On the one hand: breeding. On the other: 'having children'. Two very different things with very different motivations and considerations.
I believe Jack when he describes the impact of children and family on our sense of identity and scope. But this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other issue of hand - procreation.
For instance, while I don't have any urge to impregnate anyone, family is important to me, and I value my relationships with other people's children.
What worries me about talk of genetic imperitives, passing on physical bits of ourselves and blinding white flashes is that the real value of children might be mislocated. They might be harmless fictions that motivate us to multiply, but as Haus suggests, these can be divisive.
For example, seeing children as creative vehicles (in the way that Sekhmet talks about): how much does it matter who makes the canvas? If kids help us to see our duties in the way Jack describes, does it matter whose children they are? A desire to make children isn't the same as a desire to raise children and it's probably important to consider which desire is motivating us.
That might be a tediously obvious distinction to make, but it seems that the real value of children can lost in the 'miracle' of conception, mitosis and birth (which, in a way, seems strange that we find so miraculous - as if root division was what we'd expect).
 
 
eco
16:57 / 11.02.05
Kids are better than drugs but in the long run probably cost about the same! Why did we have kids? We wanted to be our own family. Because it's natural and I like things that are natural. Difficult to explain but I know it was the right thing for us to do. How did it work out that we got the children we've got? Not sure but I think that every parent and every child (at least in the beginning) thinks that they got a good deal. Perhaps it's the chance to bear witness to the blossoming of a unique new person, helping us to understand that little bit more of the world around us.

In the process, children challenge us to make something more of ourselves. For the first time I know that life is about so much more than me. Having children has opened up new areas of mental and emotional development for me. Perhaps in that regard it is selfish. It does change your life. However, I think that only the parent can decide if that's going to be a good or a bad thing. Done for the right reasons and with the inexplicable love that comes with it, I personally feel that it can only be a good thing. Also, did I mention that I think it's natural?
 
 
grant
17:36 / 11.02.05
Two bits in a longer thread, nicely spun by Haus's posts, stand out to me:

I think you can argue here that there is a communal responsibility to take care of children, if not to have children.

That sounds quite simple, but is actually quite subversive... for starters, it means MacGuyver's motivation, being based on the specific production of a specific genetic cocktail, is possibly not the prime form, and may not actually speak to a social good. Likewise, Sax describes looking at *his child* - something that was created by him and Mrs Sax - and being overwhelmed with love.


and

I'm suspicious of this idea that one instinctively wants to have a child and then one instinctively loves it...

I can tell you from personal experience that these are two distinct sets of instincts, although obviously parts of a larger complex. (And they're obviously inflected by experience & social expectations and whatever else.)


Most of you probably know I've adopted a baby from China. It's an amazing experience. We're planning on doing it again (already started getting ducks in a row).

That weird flash you get, it happens when you really don't have your genes out there in that wee human being. My better half, she's done it both ways, and says it's just the same. You're *responsible* for this strange little creature that is utterly incapable of doing anything for itself.

I'm of the opinion that the world is never a good a place to have children, but it's never stopped people from doing it yet. This is probably informed by a fundamental pessimism (or an optimism thrashing against a pessimism) inflected by Catholic upbringing, what with all the emphasis on "worldliness" being the opposite of godliness and that.

Every now and again I think about seeing my eyes or my nose (it's a typical nose for my mother's family) on some little face. But my laugh -- I already hear my weird laugh coming out of this other little person's mouth, and that's a wonderful thing.

Why did I decide to have children?

The stupid, blunt, caustic answer is I dunno -- my wife really wanted to. But I don't think that's the whole truth. As I said elsewhere, I seemed to be OK at it, the parenting business, and, y'know, kids have their own charm. They learn from you, you know. It's seductive, being able to influence little minds, above the sheer joy one gets from observing the way their little minds work. (Ask a four-year-old to tell you a joke sometime for an example of what I mean.)

I'm wondering if this learning business is the same thing as the "spreading my seed" argument, only based on memes instead of genes.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:08 / 11.02.05
grant is bang on the money about the urge to procreate and the instinctive love of a child being separate phenomena, BTW. That "white-light experience" does not come always from encountering one's own offspring, and it does not always follow the urge to procreate—the order is often reversed: a WLE with someone else's child will sometimes act as a trigger for the procreative urge.

This can manifest itself in ways ranging from the comparatively-selfish "Hey, kids are great, I gotta get me one" to the relatively-saintly "You know, my interaction with this child makes me think I would be a good parent: developing into my offspring would be the best break some li'l zygote could ever have."
 
 
grant
20:53 / 11.02.05
Will no one think of the zygotes??
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:34 / 12.02.05
Something just clicked; some biological or mental switch was thrown. Suddenly the idea of having children didn't seem like a horrific prospect which would massively curtail our lives.

Now that terrifies me. You see, I have this impending feeling of doom. Like this might happen to me one day and mentally I have absolutely no urge to have children but my heart (not now... in the mythical future) will just take over. All of these women keep telling me that it's going to happen and I live in fear that one day I too will wake up and become an entirely different person with a body that is absolutely in command of my brain.

I don't like babies. I find them terrifying. I can have a conversation with a cat but not a baby. Babies can't tell you anything, they just lie there and stare vacantly in to space and people love them unconditionally for being so vulnerable. But it's horrible to think that you could just put them down somewhere and let them waste slowly away until just baby bones sit on the floor. They're scary and they're in control while unable to be in control. They're like evil geniuses, the whole lot of them. Now if I was an analyst I'd say that I'm scared of the responsibility that baby of Nina would heap on my shoulders. However, I'm really scared of everyone else's babies. I'm pretty sure that if I had to look after my own all the time I'd be pretty okay at it. I mean, it would just become normal. No, it's the part where they take over your soul that disturbs me and the family gathers around and coos over them like they're flowers and not just a person in the room. I like all people really and I look at everyone and I dislike the way that people treat small people as if they have a right to more attention than a yuppie walking down the street. Babies are only so important because their situation is so fucked up... that makes me nervous.

The idea of carrying one around inside you doesn't help. It's a bit parasitic really. Though I think this may be something to do with my early childhood when I thought that babies were born through people's belly buttons (this confused me for a very long time) and the obvious similarities that this has to Alien.

The worst thing about it all is that I expect that one day I will have some children because it's normal. Sometimes my mind descends in to this place- if you had a little boy what would you call him- and I hate it. It's like it does it on it's own and to stop it I have to replace boy with cat. As if boys and cats were possessions. Stupid genetics.

Anyway I'm holding out for as long as I can and I'm hoping that will be forever because honestly I think kids are cute but I don't really like them unless they're being naughty and that could be a problem when you have to spend everyday with them (and have an urge to protect them which screws with the naughty part).
 
 
Ganesh
08:40 / 13.02.05
It is far easier to maintain one's own delusions of immortality when one is childless.

Until one's own parents start dying. In the absence of offspring, that's what made me aware I wasn't going to live forever, learn how to fly, light up the sky like a flame, etc., etc.
 
 
Sekhmet
02:01 / 14.02.05
For example, seeing children as creative vehicles (in the way that Sekhmet talks about): how much does it matter who makes the canvas? - Smoothly

Very insightful, Smoothly - I hadn't ever formulated it in that way, but you're exactly right. I don't have any particular desire to breed, per se, but I definitely do want to raise children. I suppose they are, as suggested, distinct urges - the procreative and the nurturing. The drive to continue the family bloodline or to have a mini-me is vastly overshadowed by my desire to see what values I could instill, what kind of a person I could create... which really makes it sound more selfish, and a bit disturbing. It's like treating a living, breathing, thinking, feeling human being as some sort of dynamic, organic art project.

From that standpoint, though, it shouldn't matter to me whether the children I raise are biologically "mine" or not - and upon consideration, I find that is the case; I would certainly consider adopting rather than bearing children. Raising adopted kids would still fulfill the nurturing urge, while avoiding the more unpleasant aspects of pregnancy and childbirth, and sidestepping the guilt about bringing more people into the world.

Plus, to be terribly Western-consumerist for a moment, adoption does provide more options. For instance, babies do scare me. I'm far more comfortable around children after they learn how to walk and talk. I could just adopt a kindergarten-age tyke, sign them up for soccer and dance lessons, and never have to deal with diapers or colic or breastfeeding or circumcision.

The more I think about it, the better it sounds, actually.

I almost hate to bring this up, but might there be any gender distinction involved when separating the urge to procreate from the urge to nurture offspring? I wonder whether, from a biological-imperative standpoint, there might be a greater degree of the former found in males, and the latter in females...
 
 
PatrickMM
04:08 / 14.02.05
First, I don't think the world now is any worse than it used to be for having children. When was the best time? It was only thirty years ago that girls who were just born had little to look forward to but getting married and pumping out more kids. Maybe it's idealism, but I feel like the world's getting better, not worse, though Bush is doing everything he can to stop that.

Anyway, I'm only twenty, but right now, I've got no desire to have kids, and can't even imagine myself wanting to in the future. There's definitely an element of selfishness, and even just looking at my own parents, and the fact that when I was little, they just couldn't do a lot of things, like watch movies that I wouldn't want to watch. I wouldn't want to have to put my life on hold to raise a child, but I could see this causing problems in the future, if my friends start having kids, I'd have to find a new social circle. Even from my perspective as a younger person, I can see the huge social division between singles and childless couples and people with kids.

But, despite not wanting the full time responsibility of raising children, I would love to be an uncle, and be able to make an impact on someone. I ran a video workshop for 12-14 year olds this summer, and it was the first time I'd ever been in a position of authority, where I had people looking up to me, and really listening to my opinion, and it's not even an ego thing that made me like it, it was being able to teach people new things and be a good influence on them. That was cool.
 
  

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