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State of the board at present

 
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
 
Spaniel
19:56 / 14.02.05
I'm not sure we need to get into a competition about who has the worst trolls.
 
 
---
20:00 / 14.02.05
But in fact, the real secret of Barbelith's success was not it's connection to The Invisibles but the fact it was being run by Tom, who was already achieving fame and fortune as a blogger, or at least a lot of people saw the blog. I think a number of the 'great old ones' you're thinking of came because of the blogging, rather than comics connection.

Thanks Our Lady, I didn't know anything about that.
 
 
sleazenation
20:58 / 14.02.05
the rule of thumb that does the trick is a simple "mods don't moderate threads they're commenting in"

I don't think this is really practicable with the current set up of mods moderating fora that they have a greater interest in (and thus are more likely to spend time reading and contributing to...)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:10 / 14.02.05
I agree on that one.

Has it ever been an issue here? Moderators running amok, I mean.

Depends who you talk to.

Incidentally, I suggested multiple ways of registering. So, if you did not have an ISP-based email and did not want to dend in a request, you could get in with a $5 one-off payment. It's a troll cow-catcher, not a universal cover charge. You see?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:13 / 14.02.05
I admit, it sounds a little to me like it's a sort of meta-board game that the popular kids get to play, while at the same time doing no good for anyone who isn't a mod.

Sandalphon: much as I've been one who lauds the "experimental community" aspect of Barbelith, I don't think that that's the whole deal first and foremost- I'd say "community" is more important than "experimental". But it was the "experimental" aspect of Barbelith that kept me here in the first place... I know I'm a mod now, but I always found the "evolution in progress" aspect fascinating. That could be just me- if I didn't find the community to feel like a real community, I don't think I'd place much value in the "experiment".

I say throw the doors open. We can always close 'em again later if it doesn't work.

The thing is, given the nature of this board, a lot of people are loath to do anything drastic like granting banning powers. I generally err on the side of forgiveness, and have been proved wrong more than once. Again, it's part of the evolutionary process, and, on balance, I'd say we'd gain more by allowing new members in than we'd lose by being SLIGHTLY more draconian (yet still a fuck of a lot less draconian than many other boards).

(See, I could go off at a tangent now and go on about how it's exactly this kind of tension that makes the whole place so fascinating for me... but this would be the wrong place, so I won't).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:14 / 14.02.05
Oh, and (posted while I was writing my last post) Haus:

Incidentally, I suggested multiple ways of registering. So, if you did not have an ISP-based email and did not want to dend in a request, you could get in with a $5 one-off payment. It's a troll cow-catcher, not a universal cover charge. You see?

Works for me.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:22 / 14.02.05
Has it ever been an issue here? Moderators running amok, I mean. Or does distributed moderation solve a problem that never really existed?

I can only really give a similar answer to the one here (and, again, that's probably the best response I can give to the first of fridge's points).

We did have a period of standard board moderation, where any moderator could pass any action on their own and without that action having to gain a set number of votes, but it wasn't something that lasted for a very long time before the current system - or a version of it - was introduced. I think that was red/grey Barbelith, which was easily the shortest-lived of the phases we've gone through.

The thing to remember there is that the board was a a significantly different place, with a significantly different membership to now. There were only something like 100 registered members (not including joke suits and the like), the overwhelming majority of whom seemed to know each other in real life. So issues of trust and responsibility were simply never raised.

DM came about when the place started getting wider publicity, and we started suffering some of the problems common to other boards, but which Barbelith had never really encountered to any great degree previously. The plan, as far as I'm aware, was partly to prevent those problems from becoming as prevalent here as they are elsewhere by setting up a system to combat them before they started occurring.

Which is why that's a difficult question to answer. If you've got a system in place to prevent something happening, you'll never really know if it's working effectively or not.

But... we have had people who were previously perfectly decent, non-trollish members of the board suddenly lose it and go off on a bit of a board-wide bender in the past. I think two of those people may have been moderators at some point - one certainly was, but had thankfully been removed from the rota through inactivity before they went loopy, and I know that the other was at least suggested as a possible candidate for moderator prior to their mini-rampage. So I think a moderator running amuck is a distinct possibility. I'm sure we've all seen it happen elsewhere, anyway.

There's another potential problem which DM largely prevents, and that's the issue of consistency. It forces moderators to communicate with each other, and so helps to avoid the mess that other boards can get into when one mod decides that a thread should be locked, or a member banned, or a thread moved, then another mod pops along a little later and disgrees with that action and sets everything back as it was. And so on and so forth, until the entire board get very, very fed up. A good example of both of these problems - lack of communication and a moderator overstepping the boundaries of their role - is this thread from another forum.

That sort of messy embarrassment simply wouldn't be possible here with the system we've got. If there's a disagreement about a particular moderation action, then it gets vetoed (along, hopefully, with a PM being sent to the person proposing the action from the person disagreeing, explaining why they used their veto). The only exception to this is if moderators fail to check their jobs properly before agreeing them.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:30 / 14.02.05
And yeah, as Haus says, it depends who you talk to. Have a dig around in the bowels of this part of the board, or Google site:barbelith.com barbelith moderator nazi and site:barbelith.com barbelith moderator fascist and you'll find old examples of people deciding that the moderator is an evil that must be wiped from the face of the board, along with other threads in which moderators worry about being perceived as such. Hence some of my comments earlier on in this thread.
 
 
Loomis
08:19 / 15.02.05
Another vote here for opening the gates. Would a vote on this issue be worthwhile do you think? Or maybe a vote by moderators on whether they're all happy to do the extra work required if we get trolled badly, since they're the ones who will be most affected?

I think the signal vs noise debate is like playing the fiddle on the titanic. Arguing over the quality of a site that has so few posts a day is meaningless. We need an increase in quantity first and foremost, then we can argue all day and night about improving quality, but at the moment I'm getting RSI from hitting refresh all day and finding nothing.

User traffic (of all types) keeps us on the board, keeps us reading, keeps us interacting with each other and encourages us (consciously or subconsciously) to post more, to think more about the place and to invest more. Which I would think would lead to a higher quality of posting.

If you come here in the morning expecting only a handful of posts, you read them and then head off elsewhere, then you don't feel motivated to add anything or to start new threads. But when there is more going on here, you spend your time here and it becomes a habit to start linking to interesting stuff. In the past if I came across an interesting site or news item my initial reaction would be to come here and share it (although I was frequently beaten to it, because others obviously had the same habit). Whereas now I don't bother, and neither does anyone else, because we feel it will just sink. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

One way to increase traffic is for all of us to force ourselves to post 5 times a day or something and bootsrap the place into activity. But the best way imho is to get new blood. Let's just try it already.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:18 / 15.02.05
Okay - so here's one problem - I'm about to respond to this thread without having read it all because I don't have time. This is not ideal, but people are talking around this area and realistically, I have to respond.

Few misconceptions out of the way, and a few proposals and clarifications and arguments and stuff:

(1) LOTS of people want to join barbelith. LOTS.
(2) At the moment only those that go through a complicated off-board rigmarole that happens to coincide with my moments of availability get on.
(3) Yes the board is a bit static at the moment and this is a problem and yes the main reason for this lies with me
(4) Last time we opened the doors to new users we got hundreds. Like fifty or so a day. After about two weeks, the board begged me to shut the door again. They were right to do so. Conversation kind of sucked.
(5) We need new members, and we need the right new members and we need a relatively controlled supply of new members. To get this level of sophistication we need new work done on the back end.
(6) Any work on the back-end is functionally impossible for me to provide at the moment because Cal is busy building Flickr and I'm working really really hard trying to make the UK's largest public broadcaster do cool shit.
(7) So when people are proposing technological solutions, bear in mind that they're just not doable at the moment. This extends to changing the board software to an off the shelf one (which I wouldn't want to do anyway) and changing moderator stuff, number of votes for entry, approval systems etc. etc.
(8) So this means you can have the doors open or the doors closed. At present no other options. Sorry. I really wish this wasn't the case. Cal's too busy, and I'm too busy to try and train up and explain and trust someone else to do the work in the short-term. Obviously there are people on the board who sound like they'd be able to do some or all of this work, and I'd love to work with them to do it - but there's relationship building-up stuff to be done there to determine whether we could trust each other and at the moment I just don't have the time to do that
(9) Barbelith remains however the thing in the world that I'd MOST LIKE TO BUILD AND FIX AND ENHANCE. But I just can't do it at the moment and work. And that means that I have to choose between doing it and eating. I'm REALLY SORRY. I'll say it again - IF I HAD ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD THIS WOULD BE THE ONE THING I'D CHOOSE TO GET SORTED RIGHT NOW.
(10) There are other things that can be done, but they're all cultural. If we want to reorganise the mods, then get the existing mods to agree who shouldn't be a mod any more and which new people should be, send me a list of user names and which forum they should be moderating and I'll set it up straight away.
(11) If you want me to open the board again I will. But before I do so, I want to know what mechanism you people have agreed to decide whether it should be shut again. Would you go for majority moderator decision for example if it all started going pear-shaped?

Basically there are your options. We can move the mods around. We can open or close the board. That's about it. So decide what mechanisms you want culturally to decide what to do, choose someone who you trust to communicate that stuff to me, and I'll respond accordingly. How's taht sound?
 
 
Tom Coates
09:23 / 15.02.05
PS. There have been 340 posts in the last twenty-four hours. Not exactly dead, is it?
 
 
Tom Coates
09:26 / 15.02.05
That's over 56 topics, by the way
 
 
Tom Coates
09:28 / 15.02.05
Oh also - if people have any names of people they think should join the board right now, then send me a private message with a work, university or non-free e-mail address for that person of any kind and I'll send out an invitation to them over the next week and a half or so. That might help a bit in the short term...
 
 
Spaniel
09:33 / 15.02.05
I'm not sure I want the doors swung open without filters put in place. I'd also like to see a name change.
Obviously all that's impossible at the mo', so my vote's for waiting.

Tom, any idea how long it will be before you *can* fix things up a bit? Difficult question, I know.
 
 
Ganesh
09:35 / 15.02.05
Fridgemagnet on trolls:

We've had one obvious recurrent one

And that obvious recurrent one was, lest we forget, unusually invasive in terms of individual posters' lives off the board. Perhaps I've had it easy and this sort of thing is a fact of Internet life, but I've been on a few message-boards and I've never encountered anyone else who's gone to that much effort to stalk and intimidate in Real Life.

All seems to be past-tense, and I'm hopeful that he might've matured, but I think it's important not to underestimate the toll his stalking exacted on certain individuals, if not necessarily on everyone.
 
 
_Boboss
10:26 / 15.02.05
given what tom's just said, can we open the doors? for a fixed period at the moment perhaps - a fortnight, or maybe a month? i think we should be prepared to take any trouble on the chin for the mo - though i think a two-mods banning function should be added as soon as possible or convenient in case of trolls.

off to the mod thread to offer mucking-in.
 
 
Spaniel
10:33 / 15.02.05
I'll willingly muck in - I get to spend a absurd amount of time on the board these days.

Not particularly fussed which fora - I read 'em all.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:33 / 15.02.05
Oh, I wouldn't want to imply that Andrew wasn't a proper troll, he certainly was. I've seen other examples of RL harassment leading from board events but it's pretty rare and always serious.

It's the rest of the "trolls", their activities and their frequency that I'm really talking about.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:48 / 15.02.05
Given Tom's strictures, I suggest keeping the board closed, at least for the moment. Butbut, we ask people we know and trust if they'd like to join, and if they do forward their email addresses to Tom. That way we can get some new blood. I'd rather not open the board entirely until we have a way to stop people from registering hundreds of suits and using them to attack the board - remember how long it took us to winkle out the huge numbers of trollsuits registered the last time the board was opened - and/or some way for moderators to do some of the things Tom and Cal used to do but can't at the moment.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:34 / 15.02.05
I would suggest we open the doors, with moderators sending PMs to Tom with the names and user numbers of people they think are trolls. Then perhaps, if he receives, say, four seperate messages from mods then the next opportunity he has, he kicks that user? If we start becoming troll-tastic then Tom will have to close the doors again until we can come up with a different plan.

And as for those figures Tom quoted for board usage, I wonder what the stats were for two years ago...?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:39 / 15.02.05
That depends on Tom checking his PMs regularly, and when the doors are closed potentially hundreds of trollsuits will still be kicking around... it took us a very long time to get rid of the last wardrobe full of troll suits.
 
 
sleazenation
12:05 / 15.02.05
Whatever we do has to work with just the mods and the set up as it is as the moment and no additional support from Tom.

I don't think we are currently equipped to deal with an uncontrolled influx and until we are I definitely think we need to keep the doors closed if only for practical reasons.
 
 
Loomis
12:28 / 15.02.05
There have been 340 posts in the last twenty-four hours. Not exactly dead, is it?

That's over 56 topics, by the way.


That's 26 posts per forum per day. 4 topics moving per forum per day. I'd tie a toe tag on that.
 
 
Spaniel
13:15 / 15.02.05
I cannot commit to being able to do more than the most trivial of fixes to barbelith for the next six months at least. Things like getting the FAQ URls sorted out, etc, are things that I'd endeavour to sort out before then, but I won't commit to getting any more functioning work done over that six month period. After that I just don't know. I really want to do this stuff, but work is tough and I'm putting a lot of my creative energies into doing that stuff instead at the moment.

Feel free to post this reply on the board if you think it'll help. I'm just trying to be as blunt and honest as I can be.

~Tom, from a PM

Looks like a long wait.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:18 / 15.02.05
Well of course that depends on your perspective doesn't it and whether you think it's a useful measure of quality to know whether people are posting a million times or twice, even if the million are posting 'fucktwats' over and over again. Two years ago roughly an average day got around 420 posts if I recall correctly. I haven't checked the average stats recently, just the stats for the last twenty four hours, so I don't know how bad it has got recently in terms of amount of postnig. It's not easy for me to check either, but I'll do it if people want.

There have been 420,000 posts to Barbelith by the way over hte last five years or so, if that's helpful. Except of course lots got lost in the old crashes and purges which were a semi-regular occurence and one of the main reasons for moving from an off-the-peg software solution (ie. - the best available at the time lost everyone's posts once every two or three months). I could probably check that more thoroughly if it was interesting to people.

You guys might not realise exactly how many people come to the site to read it rather than to post. That might be a good way of establishing whether or not it's dead - yesterday there were eleven thousand unique visitors to the site and nineteen thousand pages were viewed. Again, this isn't a particularly good metric of quality, but at least ONE interpretation of that would be that the quality of posts here is good and interesting enough for people to want to read, and that opening the door to potential registration for any or all of these people might not be the most intelligent way of handlnig things...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:23 / 15.02.05
Could you stick up a link to the site metrics thingummy, Tom? That might be useful in the context of this discussion.

Also, while you're here, what are your thoughts on the suggestion of getting some more coders involved in the evolution of the board software? Something that's a realistic possibility, or not?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:58 / 15.02.05
Haus, Hearth, Home, Heart That depends on Tom checking his PMs regularly, and when the doors are closed potentially hundreds of trollsuits will still be kicking around... it took us a very long time to get rid of the last wardrobe full of troll suits.

Hey there lil' buddy! Turn that frown upside down! Speaking as a victim of Knodge's about-fucking I'm willing to take the risk that he has not yet developed the people skills not to automatically alienate any women unfortunate to cross his path if we get Barbelith up and interesting again. Yes, there's a risk we might get trolled but apart from the already mentioned half-dozen we didn't have a huge problem when the gate was down and Tom was always available at the helm.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:39 / 15.02.05
Yeah but I'm not available at the helm that often any more.
 
 
grant
15:37 / 15.02.05
Here's a proposal that ties up a few of the threads in the above conversation that I personally like.

First: Goose up the number of mods, just in case. This might not even be necessary -- things seem to get done quick enough now. Last time the doors were open, the worst of the drive-by posting seemed to take place in Switchboard, so just upping the complement of mods there might be enough. I'm willing to become Switchboard mod, but I don't want to become ubiquitous. I'd even be willing to swap my mod status in Head Shop or Temple (I rarely hang out there currently) if that seems like it'd help.

Second: Open the gates - temporarily. Tom, if you've got people who're dying to get, rather than vetting each one individually, why not just send 'em all an invitation to a Barbelith Open House? Leave the gates open for, what, three days? A week? During that time, we could drive folks we like toward the site and pick up a few people at random.

Third: Devise a trust-building strategy for future coding. Flickr is one of the hottest commodities on the web -- I had no idea Cal was involved with that. Hem of his garment and all that. Wow. So, I think if we're going to get some kind of flexibility & control without hassling Tom, we need more coders on staff (if it can be called a staff). To do that, we need to start building some kind of relationship between Admin and Talent. It appears there's no time to do it properly yet, but some kind of first step or rough plan for what will happen in six months or whenever would be nice. What's the first step? How do we get there?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 15.02.05
I'm not sure I am explaining myself here. Here's the creedoss:

1) Tom opens Barbelith.
2) While Barbelith is open, nutter registers 10 new suits every day, trolls board.
3) Moderators send PMs to tom saying "troll". Every so often, when Tom checks his PMs, he gets these and swats the trollsuits that have been acting up.
4) Eventually, board is closed again after extensive trolling.
5) Troll continues to troll, working his way through his hundreds of spare suits.
6) Moderators send PMs to tom saying "troll". Every so often, when Tom checks his PMs, he gets these and swats the trollsuits that have been acting up.
7) Everyone loses will to live.

I'd rather exercise some form of access control, of, for example, the "email addresses to Tom" variety, than have no control _and_ no powers to deal with trolls _and_ no regular oversight by Tom.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:04 / 15.02.05
I still go with opening the gates FOR A SHORT TIME- a day or two, which Tom tells us about in advance- in this time, we'll get a lot of new members (many of whom won't post at all, very likely) plus anyone we know who we'd like to join without bothering Tom.
IF our old plank-wielding chum comes back, yes, it'll be a bitch to shift him, but it won't be an ongoing problem- yes, he could sit on a bunch of suits, but as they are rooted out (which they inevitably would be- subtletly was never his strong point) he won't be able to replace them.

Having said that, other than a couple of PMs and some offensive posts directed at me, I wasn't really one of those victimised by the little fuck, so maybe I'm being a little blase. I don't think I am... but it's worth bearing in mind.
 
 
Grey Area
19:08 / 15.02.05
Let's assume that the scenario Haus outlines above takes place. I'm going to stick my head out here and say "So what?". That is what we have moderators for. At least, that is my understanding of the role of moderator. OK, fair enough, I mod in the Creation and the Gathering and can't say I've ever come to the board to be greeted with a slew of troll-management related mod requests. That would be annoying, but at the end of the day that kind of thing goes with the badge.

OK, some people will be insulted. There will be argument and accusations and taking of sides. But you know what? That's life. You're not able to sail through life in a bubble that keeps all the mean people from talking to you in the real world. You can try building a bubble like that here on the internet, but I think you'll find that much like what we're experiencing now there'll not be much conversation.

My vote goes to opening the gates and everybody realising that for better or for worse bulletin boards and fora are a reflection of the wider world. You're going to get arseholes. And I'd like to think that we're mature and intelligent enough to deal with the arseholes without scaring off those new members who would be good contributors through troll-paranoia.

Because in all honesty, regardless of the manner in which we open the board, if we greet every new poster with a mixture of "you're not smart enough to play with us" and "ALERT! ALERT! POTENTIAL TROLL HERE!" the whole exercise is pointless. So what if someone new neglected to trawl through the entire archive to see if a thread already existed for a new topic? I'd much rather start a new discussion with fresh viewpoints, rather than resurrect a thread from three years ago. So what if their nettiquette isn't the greatest? PM them and refer them to the wiki. The consensus is that we need fresh blood. The only options we have are to continue as present, or open the gates. Given that one means continuing stagnation, I'd go for the latter.
 
 
Ganesh
19:55 / 15.02.05
it took us a very long time to get rid of the last wardrobe full of troll suits.

And I'm not sure how we'd know if we had got rid of 'em all...
 
 
Tom Coates
20:56 / 15.02.05
Grey Area - I understand what you're saying, but I'm afraid I think it's basically balls. The moderators don't have the powers to throw people off the board for a whole range of cultural reasons, including but not limited to the fact that people didn't like the idea that a whole group on the board had the power to ban people. So that power's always been restricted to me, and on the rare occasions that I've had to exercise it because someone's a troll, the board's generally paralysed with discussion about whether it's appropriate or not. So two issues - people don't like the mods being able to ban people and they can't ban people anyway - make your approach clumsy at best.

All the mods CAN do is delete every thread or post that someone makes on the board. This is annoying for them, and slow, and will happen really really quickly. And while you're really clear on the idea that absolutely anyone should be able to post to Barbelith, I don't think you really understand what that means. That's ten thousand people coming to the site every day, some of whom because they've seen something random on google, most of whom will post once and disappear immediately, many of whom will come because we've got the words nazi on several threads etc. etc.

Point is, barbelith made a decision a long time ago that it would rather have good conversations than lots of conversations. At the moment you might argue that it's got neither, although I'd disagree. Certainly at the moment it retains the possibility of good conversations in a way that wouldn't be the same if all the established norms, conventions and culture went away.

As I say - I'm more than comfortable to open the doors for everyone out there again if that what you guys want (and I'm more than prepared for people to just put this to a roughly open vote on a thread and see who votes one way or another), but before we do that, I want you guys to work out how we agree to close the board again should that become necessary. That's all I want from you guys - find some way of coming to a consensus on the board that I can see is roughly representative of board opinion, and let me know who's going to be telling me to turn registration off again and under which criteria. Because I think it's very likely that people will want registration off again pretty quickly and I want to make sure that the community has a way of making that decision if necessary.

There are - of course - loads of ways that we could handle this registration process without completely opening the doors. We could - for example - post up something that said something to the effect of "Barbelith is closed to new members at the moment - but if you've got a really good case for why you feel you shoudl be a member, chuck us an e-mail to this e-mail address". We could then have that e-mail address go to all the moderators, and they could chat to the people concerned to make sure that they're roughly who they say they are (ie. only limit to e-mail addresses being that it's either a work or a university or non-free e-mail address that indicates that they're vaguely identifiable by it). People chuck me a list once a week, and I'll send them an invitation e-mail.

I know that sounds complex, but it's at least achievable in terms of doing the bare minimum to stop people who aren't actually interested in being part of the community join the site, and to stop some of our older trolls grabbing lots of extra user names.

This solution might not be ideal - but hopefully it'll get you thinking in a direction like this. As long as my role is limited and the time involved is minor (eg. in this case it would be just sending out a group e-mail once a week), then I'm prepared to commit to it. And to Grey Area again - please believe me when I say that I've been keeping this place roughly together now for six years and I know that simply opening the gates wouldn't work. Haus has been here that long too - as have several other people - and I know our ways seem annoying and weird, but for all the crap that comes along with this approach has also come the best stuff we've done. I know that lots of other message boards operate differently, but you know what - people come here because barbelith isn't like most other message boards. I don't see why we should sacrifice that stuff just because conversation has dried up for a bit.
 
 
Spaniel
06:07 / 16.02.05
I have to say, if Tom's right, if we'll want to shut the doors after a couple of days, what will opening them actually acheive? How many committed board members are we likely to pick up in that time?

Not many, IMO.
 
  

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