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Vimanarama! #1

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:37 / 11.02.05
None of those are plot ambiguities at all. The doctor let them out by disarming the locks; Warmaker 1's ghost + he's just that cool; someone told him she was down there. It's not Morrison's fault you have serious reading comprehension difficulties. Jesus.

Nah, I insult Morrison and his cosmic-squid-loving fans all the time. Shortly after The Filth finished it felt like I did little else. That's not what's causing me to be insulting towards you.


This is plain rude and I don't see your justification for it. Being needlessly insulting to people you don't know reflects badly on you.


This demonstrates that I was one of several people who felt the "SAVE" command in We3 #1 wasn't clearly explained.

This in turn demonstrates that I was one of several people who felt Batman's escape in JLA: C #3 wasn't clearly explained.

Of course I can understand the story well enough by skimming these ambiguous moments. But just because I accept that Batman got free and the adventure continues doesn't mean I can't call bad storytelling. I explained in some detail why that Bat-escape sequence was not elegantly handled, on that second link. There is no point me explaining again.

And if this is meant to be pop-express, accessible like a 3-minute single, making the form trendily disposable to people who wouldn't normally pick up a comic book -- yet someone like me who's been reading Batman comics since 1974 and Grant Morrison comics since 1987 goes "huh" at it -- then how are these stories meant to be immediately satisfying to a broad readership?

I think I'm quite justified in suggesting this is a stumble on the creators' part rather than my stupidity.


onyhoo, plot's hardly the most important aspect of a comic. it's da telllin of da story.

It's a fair point that plot in a three-issue arc does have to be simple and linear. I was only complaining above because we've seen three or four Grant Morrison runs like this, in a row, and I feel they are getty samey in their simplicity.

As for telling of the story, I still maintain there have been some troublingly muddy moments of storytelling in the Morrison three-parters I've read recently. They don't ruin the whole thing, by any means, but I found it a little frustrating and even more annoying when Morrison says stuff like "god help those idiots who didn't get the SAVE scene."

In every one of these, where the plot is thin, the story is nevertheless thematically tight,

I think "story" means what actually happened, in linear sequence whereas "plot" means the way the story is actually told: so the story could run chronologically from 1970-2004, but the plot might start in 2004 and include loads of flashbacks.

I know that might seem pedantic, and we don't usually distinguish between the two terms: but I don't know what you mean by saying that if the "plot" is no good, a thematically-tight "story" can redeem it.


yr approach to comics is perhaps a little too English Lit for me.

Well, that's fine. There is room for different approaches.

Anyway, here's why I thought the "Wait a minute. You're Sofia?" moment was queerly handled.

1. Fatima encourages Ali to come to the airport to meet Sofia. His dad says he can do that "after the hospital."

2. Ali comes back from the hospital. To my mind, and I don't see why Ali wouldn't assume the same, there's nothing to show that Fatima went to the airport without him.

3. His little nephew (?) says "that other girl went to look for him." Ali replies "Girl?"
Nobody says "Yes, Ali, your future wife went down the hole in the floor to look for Imran...you must go after her."
This is a pretty traditional family. We are meant to understand that Sofia flew in from Southampton to Bradford, came back to the shop and immediately ducked down a hole in the floor without anyone fussing about it -- and that no-one would tell him when he comes in.
"That other girl?" How does that sound natural? The kid would know full well this is Ali's future bride.

3. Although the clues have been building up -- she calls for Imran, seems to know who Fatima is but has only just arrived in Bradford, so clearly isn't just some neigbourhood girl doing the family a favour -- there's no sudden trigger to set off Ali's "wait a minute" realisation. Which is fair enough, as it's plausible that the evidence was just gathering in his head and clicked into place for that panel, but it set me looking for some reason why he'd just understood, and there was nothing at all to cue him in at that point.

Anyway, it isn't a big deal, but that was my thinking.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:38 / 11.02.05
With these recent 3 parters GM seems to be working with light linear plots so as to experiment with other levels of the storytelling.

We3 was a rather straightforward story contained within an experiement in the form.

Seayguy was a part 1 of a larger story that seemed to start were conventional superheo storys end. The great big multipart epic is told in a 1 spread flashback. From their, the hero's journey becomes more of a personal one. At the same time that ending plays very much like another begining; so is there some circular storytelling there?

JLA:C was, to me, similar. It built heavily from the previous mythos/continuity while exploring some role reversals or distortions. Heroes (ultramarines) being turned into weapons, BATMAN playing Sci Fi hero rather than grim vigilante, even BATMAN played as the whole JLA via those 'droids. In the end it all becomes set-up for the 7 soldiers.

All of these minis seem like set-ups for the 7 soldiers series at least in terms of working out plot conventions and compressed storytelling. I wonder if this storysuggesting fill-in-the-blanks method might prove to be a sort of corner stone of the 7 soldiers storyline; that modular storytelling thing he mentions occasionally.

Ali seems like a "real world" seaguy, in that he's a romantic protagonist. He's willing to kill himself (or imagines he would) rather than marry an ugly woman, I'm wondering if he'd consider Shebeard ugly. As for that plot bit about recognizing his future wife in the undergound it played fairly clearly to me. If she was still in the store with the rest of the family the plot would've stopped there for introductions. Instead, it seems well within her character to take the opportunity to go off on her own rather than wait around. Then there's the comment "looking for a baby?" that seems to cement it.

I was particularly fond of the "how can you be so shallow at a time like this?" comment.

Alot of the dialogue played like those bollywood/hollywood romantic comedies that have been coming out on DVD. The slip into Kirbyverse villians and visuals read like a change of pace that I'm guessing would be more appriecated by long time comics fans than the casual reader. From their the slide into asian comic romance wasn't much of a reach.

All of a sudden Ali has to now compete against a God for the affections of a wife he wasn't sure he could even life with; classic!!!
questions.
  • Will she choose her duty to (the pre-arranged) marriage or be wooed into a romance with a god?


  • Will she turn out to be another one of those goddesses who desended into the material world only to forget her divinity; effectively becoming trapped in a fiction of her own creation?


  • Is that decent into some underworld an alagory for Ali's future decent into the mysteries of (sexual) love with his wife?


  • Did that evil guy steal his antennae from some dog?


SAX, I hope I didn't come off as nit-picking, I enjoyed that review of yours; that details just jumped out at me's all.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:38 / 11.02.05
Yeah, what's interesting is I don't feel that the end result of this romantic triangle is obvious at the moment. Maybe Sofia doesn't end up with Ali...and he comes out of it not wanting to hang himself even despite that result.

>> Nah, I insult Morrison and his cosmic-squid-loving fans all the time.

That's "cosmic-4-D-squid-loving fan" to you, bucko!!



The 'shallow of you' double-page spread moment was particularly amazing, yes...also since the shallow among us were noticing Sofia's ass in that moment thanks to Bond's placement.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:45 / 11.02.05
And for the record, I thought him figuring out that she was Sofia was a bit out of the blue but I could live with it.

So for the stats-minded out there...

GRANT'S RECENT ARGUABLY VAGUE PLOT POINTS

FinderWolf's feelings on same:

1. "SAVE" in We3 - Dodgy, I felt it could and should have
been explained a bit more clearly. But I could live
with it and get past it. However, it was vague, and
Morrison making fun of fans who thought it was vague
was kind of silly.

2. Bats' escape in JLA:C - a bit weird but I could live
with it, didn't give it nearly as much thought or
consideration as 1., above.

3. Ali figuring out Sofia is Sofia - a bit weird but
I could live with it, along the level of 2., above.
However, why would 'that girl' who goes to look for the
baby make him think it's Sofia? Wasn't she supposed to
be waiting to meet him at the airport? If you were
supposed to meet someone at the airport and someone
said 'that girl' or 'that guy' was in the area, would
you really think the person the area was the person
who was supposed to be far away at an airport?
 
 
Aertho
17:52 / 11.02.05
This is a pretty traditional family. We are meant to understand that Sofia flew in from Southampton to Bradford, came back to the shop and immediately ducked down a hole in the floor without anyone fussing about it -- and that no-one would tell him when he comes in.

Here's me:

Ali's torn up because his brother's had head trauma, and unsympathetic toward his existential doubt(which surrounds the assumption of Sofia being ugly, so she SHOULD be on his mind...). When he gets back, his head's a swirling emotional mess and his family says the baby's down the same damn hole his brother fell in. Nobody's gone after him, because the men are too old or too young.

Now, note the dress, because this is significant.

The women are in burkas.

They say the other girl's gone after him, but Ali COULD be more shocked that a female has descended into the pit to look for Imran. For the same reason his sister and the real other girl aren't down there: Burkas aren't functional for spelunking.

Now, Ali dives down because he's the only able one and runs into "the other girl". All these pages occur in less than fifteen minutes, and there's a baby underground to worry about. Now, he didn't figure "the other girl" could possibly be Sofia for the same reason his sister and the real other girl aren't down there: He figured his betrothed would be burka'd. He is from a traditional family, after all.

So after two and two finally click to four, he's amazed that this hot and nontraditional girl is his Sofia... he'd been picturing an ugly girl swathed in black blankets.

no problem here, kovacs
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
17:56 / 11.02.05
I'm with those who don't think a supercomplex plot is appropriate for a three-issue miniseries. The plot is just something to hang the crazy ideas and cool techniques on when you only have ninety pages.

Also, Ali realizing who Sofia was didn't jar me in the least. It just didn't click to him until that second, what with all of the missing baby / secret city junk that was going on at the time. In fact, it seemed like when it all became too much for him, what with catching the baby that Darkseid's cousin tossed, that's what his mind focused on; something comparatively mundane, yet important. It probably kept his mind from going "ping" for another couple of minutes.

I especially liked the superhero-style shots of Ali, on the "Ali to the rescue" quasi-dance number page and the Batman-style "this won't take long" panel with him all determined and the mere mortals looking shook up in the background. Classic.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:41 / 11.02.05
why would 'that girl' who goes to look for the
baby make him think it's Sofia? Wasn't she supposed to
be waiting to meet him at the airport? If you were
supposed to meet someone at the airport and someone
said 'that girl' or 'that guy' was in the area, would
you really think the person the area was the person
who was supposed to be far away at an airport?


um, I don't have the book in front of me, but as I remember it, Ali was sent to the Hospital instead of the Airport by his father who would stay home and watch the baby while the women went to fetch Sophia.

Ali returns to the store after his visit with his Bro. Everyone's there minus his Nephew and the "other girl." So it should be infered that in the time it took for Ali to get to and return from the Hospital; Sophie has been picked up at the airport, brought back to the store, once there it's discovered that the Baby's missing (down the hole), while eveyone's in a panic Sophie jots down the hole to fetch said baby (perhaps she figured it to be a small sub-basment). Ali returns and it's Ali to the rescue AGAIN. He goes down the hole and finds a girl who is not the baby. Other funkyness ensues. She comments that she's never been here before, more funkyness, then 2+2=4.

I think there where more clues to this mystery than there was for Batman's escape which was prettymuch chalked up to BATMAN = badass + disembodied Warmaker 1 > Ropes + Grodd(back turned + monologue)
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
19:35 / 11.02.05
are these lists necessary to help understand plot points in Morrison's comics nowadays? these are one of the simplest series the guy's ever written...

if they're more loosely planned, what then? that's very far from 'sloppy'. sorry if I sound rude, but I wonder what kind of brain seizure THE MISTERY PLAY might cause in 2005.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:58 / 11.02.05
It might be spelled "Mystery" in 2005, for one thing.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)
 
 
FinderWolf
20:11 / 11.02.05
anyway, it's not a big deal, but worth discussing a bit, I think... it's not like we're raving and ranting and saying Morrison sucks, it's just one of the many things to discuss about the book.

The dog ends up in the garbage bag - yay! I love his little head poking out in that final panel.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:59 / 11.02.05
I was making a right meal of this comic, above -- I know it! It didn't necessarily deserve all my "Eng.Lit." dissection and hammering away.

Sofia's arse was indeed fit as fuck. In fact, "arse" is almost a euphemism here as I felt we were seeing a bit more than just her bottom.
 
 
FinderWolf
05:33 / 12.02.05
and in the comedy gold department -- "I rubbed it."

Love that logo.

Lettering by Todd Klein; always aces.

Bond is playing with some very cool panel layouts in this issue - especially the cube panels that foreshadow the weird talking cube thingie.
 
 
Krug
10:48 / 12.02.05
What a fucking disappointment.

Someone pages ago said something about arranged marriages. They're fairly common in Pakistan but "love marriages" (as they call 'em over there) are the prevailing trend in middle and upper classes.

Some people go for a mixture of both sometimes. (i.e. secretly date and fall in love. guy asks mum and dad to go to the girl's house, they make up some sort of connection and have tea at their place. look at the girl and things either go from there or don't).

The comic on the other hand is just not very good. I agree with most of the stuff Kovacs says in his post except about the plot ambiguities.

Phil Bond's art is ace, but the writing could've been done by Gurinder Chadha (what a waste of DNA). The premise had me looking forward to it for about two years almost.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:57 / 12.02.05
I loved the double page breakout into a musical number. In my (limited) experience of Bollywood films, the musical aspect is incorporated into most genres - an action film is as likely to have song & dance numbers as a romance. Indeed an action film is likely to be a romance. Morrison's riffing on the commonplace occurance of colourful dnace routines cast against the rainy Bradford backdrop (was it Bradford? still don't have the ish to hand).
I immedeiately liked Ali and Sophia, and I think Mozzer managed to represent asian idioms without descending into Peter Sellars territory. I find it weird that people are grousing about the simplicity of these series - three issues is a short time to establish characters, their world (and the parameters of that world), the plot, the 'hook', etc.. and still do something different. Certainly their not labyrinthine works like the I********s, but that was over 70 issues long. It's the same old problem for me - these threads have all tended to dissolve into nit-picking over supposed plot inadequacies. Fine, but if you don't feel they are inadequacies it gets pretty dull.
 
 
Triplets
12:16 / 12.02.05
I don't think they are dancing, but playing catch. It just LOOKS like a dance number because Granite is messing with our minds.

I thought this as well, Bond may have been riffing on a Quitely vibe on that splash page. The whole 'single moment in time preserved in perspex' metaphor someone else came up with for We3. It could be a Bollywood musical number or it could be they're all jumping up at the same time accidentally to catch the ball(belith). But it's probably both
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:09 / 12.02.05
I think the truth is that if I really like a comic, I am prepared to give it the benefit of any doubt and wouldn't grizzle and pick at "ambiguities".

It's probably because I was disappointed with this comic that I'm being more petty about not-especially-important niggles in the storyline.

Maybe like when you're in a relationship that doesn't feel right -- every little thing begins to annoys you, however petty and unfair it is to gripe about it.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
17:27 / 12.02.05
The issue's initial double-page spread seems to me to be a Bollywood musical dance: as well as the dancing girls, the policeman is offering his radio to the policewoman, who is dangling her handcuffs and assuming what IMO is a pose representative of the few Bollywood musicals that I've seen.

As well as the background characters, the logo and Ali's dialogue give the page a cinematic style; I heard a gong striking when I saw those pages, a widescreen freeze-frame moment, with the urban style of the characters - the schoolgirls, the police, Ali's BMX, branded tracksuit and ironic heroism - providing a wry counterpoint to the dramatic logo.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:22 / 12.02.05
well, there are many other things to discuss besides the arguable 'ambiguities' - I feel like we've pretty much said all we can say on all sides.

plus, maybe Ali just had a psychic moment where he realized this was his betrothed standing right in front of him!

Looking forward to issue 2!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:12 / 12.02.05
The dance number put me in mind of that bit in Central Station in the Fisher King- so technically I didn't think any dancing was REALLY going on, but that Ali was just fantasising... I loved that spread- it made me grin like a lunatic.

I thought this was a pretty fucking smart comic- yes, very lightweight, but there's nowt wrong wi' that.

I'll post more when I've given it a couple more reads.
 
 
Ganesh
21:58 / 12.02.05
the goddess (Shiva? doesn't look much like her.)

Well, no, Shiva being a he. Also a bit perplexed as to why the presence of nipple rings on a fat bloke in the lotus position suggested "Buddha/Ganesh" to someone...

It's not yet clear that the Ultra-Hadeen represent specific identifiable deities. There's the Hindu god Rama (whose eternally-reincarnating consort would be Sita rather than Sofia), but Ben Rama?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:27 / 13.02.05
For the past two years I have been baffled by a pair of trainers, tied by their laces to a telephone wire outside a nearby house.

On the "Bollywood" spread, as I recall, this phenomenon seems to be depicted -- many trainers hanging between houses.

Is this some cultural ritual I've never understood?
 
 
Mario
12:36 / 13.02.05
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_274.html

Basically, it's an easy way to get rid of trainers (or, as we say Over Here, "sneakers") you don't like.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:55 / 13.02.05
Well, that link also had a number of people agreeing that it's a sign you can buy crack in the house, or it's gang turf. Knowing my area, that seems probable.

I wonder what Morrison and/or Bond meant by it.
 
 
The Falcon
14:29 / 13.02.05
the goddess (Shiva? doesn't look much like her.)

Well, no, Shiva being a he.


ooops. He looks like a bird.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:22 / 13.02.05
The opening spread is unquestionably meant to evoke Bollywood musicals - I can't believe there's even any sort of debate over that. As far as whether it's "really" happening, or if Ali is fantasizing, etc...come on guys, it's called magic realism.

I think the argument over Ali's recognition of Sofia is pretty overblown too - fair enough, I see one place where Grant could have altered the dialogue slightly to make it clearer (change "That other girl" to "Sofia" and problem solved) but it's hardly an obstacle to understanding the story...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
17:45 / 13.02.05
I thought the point of this trilogy of three issue mini's was for GM to go back to short, linear narratives after all his stretched out Invisibles/NXM work.

A creator owned breath of fresh air to blow out the conspiracy theory cobwebs.

I see Seven Soldiers as being a fusion of the two styles, the minis add up to a bigger storyline when put together.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
18:22 / 13.02.05
I welcome simplicity in Grant's storytelling. His whole ultra-compressed thing was getting on my tits a bit, and with these minis he seems to have tempered it slightly, or at least utilised it more effectively.
 
 
Aertho
18:31 / 13.02.05
Isn't Gerhardt trying to ressurrect the Silver Age?

Also:
00-40 -Pulp Age, Tower and Star
40-60 -Golden Age, Moon
60-80 -Silver Age, Sun
80-00 -Modern Age, Judgement
00... -New Age?, World Card, baby.

Feels good, all this Sublime UltraHadeen Madness.
 
 
The Falcon
18:32 / 13.02.05
Cameron, your link doesn't work.

Anyway, dancing is hardly a staple of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It is a kind of 'native stroytelling mode transposed' device, but not really what I'd call magic realism.

But then, I don't even know Siva's sex.
 
 
Mario
19:16 / 13.02.05
I've always had the sneaking suspicion that "Magic Realism" REALLY means "Fantasy novels that are shelved in the Literature Section"

(I have similar thoughts about "Slipstream").
 
 
CameronStewart
20:19 / 13.02.05
In the link that I apparently can't link to, a definition of magic realism is given as a fusion of the wondrous and the mundane. In this case, a rainy Bradford street, for a moment, becomes a choreographed Bollywood musical number. It's not in Ali's head, nor is it "really happening" - it's done for effect.

I'm not articulating myself very well here. Never mind.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
20:29 / 13.02.05
Nah Cam, you pretty much nailed it. It was clear in my head that, as I said earlier, Mozzer's riffing on Bollywood traditions, and cheekily applying them to his story. To question whether it's 'really' happening seems to miss the fun being had.
 
 
_Boboss
11:43 / 14.02.05
yes, the whole 'is it really happening?' bit: it's only a picture. it's drawn like that because it looks cool that way. thank moz for not insisting the reader be led by the hand through every page. the 'are you sofia' bit? what? never had a realisation pop into your head unconnected to the thought preceding it? never realised something then waited a minute before saying so? the bumps and crinkles in the narrative like this are almost what it's all about for me, these are the points where the story feels most immersive and realistic.

i thought this was good, i greatly enjoyed the swish and shimmy of it. those are some of the best superheroes i have ever seen. no-one has given bond a script that has stretched him this much for a longlong time.

but there is a point mentioned briefly upthread: in a bbc soap-opera in 2005, the characters would NOT be having an arranged marriage and the family would NOT own a corner-shop. he is playing with types to a degree here, but 'playing' is the operative word - the addition of superheroes more or less takes the type apart quite quickly. also the types are presented sympathetically, frivolously, non-judgementally. there are brits just like that, walking around being as silly as ye or me, and to fret about representing them lightheartedly for reasons of practical conspicuousness would be a pretty churlish act of personal-censorship for a perfectly capable team like moz-bond.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:05 / 14.02.05
Plus I like the fact that Ali isn't complaining about an arranged marriage - just that she might be ugly or boring.
 
 
adamswish
21:21 / 14.02.05
Favourite dialogue: "The fish had suicidal tendancies LONG before I got there Fatima"

And I've said it before and I'll say it again I want to live in Philip Bond's world
 
  

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