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Underground > Comic Books >

Vimanarama! #1

  
  

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superdonkey
23:29 / 09.03.05
So should we have a thread for issue #2? It was quite good..
 
 
Billuccho!
23:34 / 09.03.05
I may have started this thread, but by golly, I just bought and read this today.

Yeah, I'd say it didn't click with me. It seemed fun and all, but I wasn't loving it... I'd say I was underwhelmed, having looked forward to this for ages.

Ali looks just like one of my friends, though. Hmm.
 
 
grant
02:11 / 10.03.05
Whether the characters are taken from it is a bit of a question - I think there's a lot of media about second generation British Asians that you're not likely to see much of in the US, which makes that less of a lock.

It still seems awfully close to me -- the kinda mod-looking son, the bearded religious scholar son, the shopkeeper dad, the weird little brother ("the other girl went after him"), the arranged-for bride... but then again, maybe those are just the lenses through which British Asianness is most often seen (which would make Khan-Din's family really convenient, from a narrative perspective, but not outside the realm of possibility).

I stuck my post up on the wiki in the Vinarama annotation-space in the Comic Book section, so if you feel like pointing out the point-outs on there, you should.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:42 / 10.03.05
i don´t know how much i would expect a contemporary British Asian to think of deities worshipped in his ancestral homeland prior to the coming of Islam as part of his past, as opposed to part of the past.

So if I understand you right, and this is something I had wondered about; there is no real narrative necessity for Ali to be British Asian in order to encounter those deities. They are not much more "alien" and "Other" to him than they would be to me as a British whitefellow.

He might as well have encountered Thor, or Anubis, for the direct relevance they have to his culture. Is that what you're saying?
 
 
diz
10:52 / 10.03.05
So if I understand you right, and this is something I had wondered about; there is no real narrative necessity for Ali to be British Asian in order to encounter those deities. They are not much more "alien" and "Other" to him than they would be to me as a British whitefellow.

He might as well have encountered Thor, or Anubis, for the direct relevance they have to his culture. Is that what you're saying?

basically, yeah. i mean, he could be a British Asian Hindu, in which case i suppose it would make more sense.

but, of course, i could be wrong. maybe Pakistani Muslims do feel some sort of cultural connection to pre-Islamic Hindu deities. i don´t think they do, but i´m not an expert.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:57 / 10.03.05
Grant – well, the most obviosu difference as that as far as we can tell the kids are not mixed-race, there aren’t ten of them, and it is not the 70s. Also, East is East is not wholly autobiographical – most obviously, apparently all Khan-Din’s siblings rebelled. It certainly does seem to be a strong influence, which is either George brilliantly subverting etc or etc, but I’m not sure it can be described as a complete lift.

On:

i don´t know how much i would expect a contemporary British Asian to think of deities worshipped in his ancestral homeland prior to the coming of Islam as part of his past, as opposed to part of the past.

So if I understand you right, and this is something I had wondered about; there is no real narrative necessity for Ali to be British Asian in order to encounter those deities. They are not much more "alien" and "Other" to him than they would be to me as a British whitefellow.

He might as well have encountered Thor, or Anubis, for the direct relevance they have to his culture. Is that what you're saying?

OK – this strikes me as a bit complex. First up, as far as I can tell the Ultrahadeen don’t necessarily fit directly onto any model of historical deity. They’re a fudge, yes? Like ben Rama – then “ben” (ibn. bin) is Arabic, as is “-hadeen”, but Rama is a Hindu deity. So, they don’t have an exact map, do they? They are neither Islamic nor Hindu, so don’t exactly fit into the idea of ancestral homeland or ancestral deity, but rather a kind of concept of South Asianity expressed through particular forms of design, fonts and culture – they’re desities, for want of a better term.

Which brings us to direct and non-direct relevance. I think George is trying to do things with second-generationality, here – that Ali doesn’t entirely have a handle on what is or is not his culture, much as he talks about “God” rather than “Allah”. So,the Ultrahadeen are generically South Asian to reflect that… mind you, I don’t have #1 in front of me – I’m interested to see where George goes with it in #2, as well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:20 / 10.03.05
Diz: Bear in mind also that Pakistan is, although overwhelmingly Muslim, not exclusively Muslim - I think there are about 5-6 million Christians, Hindus &c within the borders of modern-day Pakistan. The annexation of the Punjab by Ghaznavi took place in the early 11th century, and that's the first "strategic" advance of Islam into what is now Pakistan so it's not perhaps as archaic as Thor or Anubis might be... maybe more like, in crude historical terms, King Arthur or Robin Hood. Plus, Hinduism is a living religion in the area in a way that Thor's or Anubis' pantheon would not be for a European, which may be I think another factor here...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:01 / 10.03.05
I think George is trying to do things with second-generationality, here – that Ali doesn’t entirely have a handle on what is or is not his culture, much as he talks about “God” rather than “Allah”.

I'm afraid this is over-generous. Morrison said in interview that he was deliberately using "God" and "pilgrimage" over "Allah" and "hajj" -- not for reasons of character but, as I recall, to avoid token exoticism. That is, none of the Muslim characters in this comic would use "Allah".
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:20 / 10.03.05
However, having just read #2, I think you may be right about what Morrison intends for Ali's character.

"They're supermen from ancient Pakistan or something." He doesn't actually recognise these as figures from any pantheon (partly because they are, apparently, mutated children of Kirby and two religious cultures). There's a general, comical lack of comprehension on the part of all the citizens, except for Sofia who dreamed of Prince Ben Rama. It doesn't seem that any of the human characters, whatever their ethnicity, connect with the good demigods or evil demons... which again, really, raises the question as to why this was a story about Asian characters. Apart from the arranged-marriage device, which wasn't entirely necessary for the plot.
 
 
grant
19:19 / 10.03.05
It certainly does seem to be a strong influence, which is either George brilliantly subverting etc or etc,

I was thinking more along the lines of "high concept" in the Hollywood sense. "It's East is East meets the New Gods!" I'm not sure exactly how subversive that is, but it's an angle I kind of like thinking about, just because I like playing high concept as a game.

Certainly makes the idea of cultural appropriation a little more direct, too. Specific.

Although, yeah, the whole point of EiE is the English mom and the historical period (with regard to cultural attitudes to immigrants & generation gaps & whatnot) so the fit's not really perfect.

Another thing I've gotten curious about, just from playing that slot-the-influence game, is to what degree Kirby's New Gods (& Eternals & whoever else) were modeled after existing deities, since this batch seem to be doing to Asian myths what Kirby might have been doing to European. I'm not familiar enough with the specifics to know for sure, just have vague memories of a character named Medusa and have sort of read about how influential the title was.
 
 
Mario
00:30 / 11.03.05
The New Gods aren't based on any particular pagan gods, although they certainly share some archetypes, like The Speedy Messsenger (Lightray), the Monster Hunting Hero (Orion), and the Paternal Sky God (Highfather).

The Eternals are a bit more complicated, as many of them are named after/based on mythological gods (e.g. Thena/Athena, Zuras/Zeus, Sersi/Circe). Opinions vary on whether the miniseries was initially supposed to take place outside the Marvel Universe (in which case, the characters could actually BE those gods), but at this point, the opposite has become true.

And Medusa is one of the Inhumans, and is therefore not directly related to any mythical creatures.
 
 
Krug
11:56 / 11.03.05
As an ex-muslim who lived and grew up in Pakistan until a couple of years ago, I have a pretty good handle on all sorts of Pakistanis as I've been aruond all sorts. Poor, rich, liberal, religious fanatics, wifebeaters, maidrapists and just regular every day people.

Comics aren't very popular in Pakistan, there are no comic stores. New comics seem to get more and more expensive and usually within four years, prices double so people stop buying them or grow up. I've read Rogan Gosh and I'm sorry but I forget the bit the bit where the artist talked about Pakistani comics. When I was growign up the only Pakistani comics that existed were this series of educatioanl comics about Tipu Sultan, Jinnah etc. I think the only graphic novel was this biography of Jinnah that I quite liked whne it came out back in 96. Comics never took off like pulps did in Pakistan but they died around the time I grew up.

I rememebr reading a pulp called "SUPERMAN'S BLOODY TEARS" (translated from Urdu) when I was five. Which obviously had nothing to do with DC.

So are there any Pakistani comic writers? I've treid to do a comic and god I might if I can find a Pakistani artist. I've long thought of doing a sf where the Raj never ended set in British Hindustan in the future but I doubt if an american coudl get it right. But nope, there are no Pakistani comic writers.

There was an inker once called Abbas something that was a mate of my someone I knew.

Do I have a problem with Morrison's stereotypes? Not really, I'm disappointed in George. Ali is the single most cliche and tired name in Pakistan. Everyone's called Ali. I only have a few pakistani friends who read comics, and only a few of them are longtime readers. After reading my copy, I downloaded it and sent it to all of them who took comics seriously but weren't junkies because of availibility issues.

Most of them liked it fine but had similar complaints. They all felt that George barely did any research, he talked to a few Pakistanis, saw East is East or read Hanif Kureishi (probably not) and wrote the comic. It's not inaccurate but the lack of research shows. The characters aren't badly written just lazily. Maybe it's about the ideas here, not about the characters.

To respond to a post upthread...

There are about 1% Christians in Pakistan if I'm not mistaken. Most of them live poorly as they're treated badly and never managed to escape poverty like anyone born poor or in the lower middle class in Pakistan. Even if they manage to get educated, most of htem won't find work that won't leave 'em on living from salary to salary with a lot of starving in between.

I've lived in Pakistan for about twenty years and there are no hindus left. They started shrinking and shrinking and I've only ever met one hindu, and heard of a few who eventually did leave. In Pakistan the liberals dont outrightly boycott religion but never practise, the conservatives dont consider them to be muslims as the live religion free lifestyles. But Indian is not very well liked except by fewish liberals. Everything Indian is wrong, and while marrying a christian is considered unpleasant but acceptable, Hindus and Jews are the scum of the earth. Indian television and films have invaded bedrooms and television lounges. Indian traditions have blended seamlessly into marriage customs and traditions. Pakistan has clearly lost the culture war and lives in denial.

But I digress. The point was that Pakistanis would be appalled at any Hindulamic mentions. Every mention or reference of/to Hinduism I've heard since childhood was accompanied by a joke about their gods and religion. A significant amount has inherited their grandfathers hate over the muslims who never moved to Pakistan during the partition. Speaking of which it's called Independence and mention of the word parition is usually met with vitriol and criticism.

Ultrahadeen is a play on Mujahadeen. Same word.

So to cap it off and repeat myself, yes George was being lazy with this one. Me and mates who are already fans of his work think it was a weaker work. I don't think anyone should be expelled from writing other ethnicities at all, I just wish somebody took teh damn time out to do the necessary research.

Pakistanis are not indians you know despite the cultural and all. And George's Pakistanis don't read like Pakistanis.

I have plenty of pakistani relatives and friends and relatives of theirs in England, and I'm sorry but none of them run cornershops or have anythign to do with them.

My mate in London just told me an hour ago how the BBC ran a series of programs about Pakistanis last week that he felt did a pretty good job of finally seperating indian from Pakistani.

Sorry if I went on about slighty unrelated stuff.
 
 
The Falcon
12:15 / 11.03.05
Has Ali's background been stated outright?

I've known boys of Iraqi origin who looked a bit like him (and others who looked nothing like him.) His family could come from anywhere in the Muslim diaspora.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:41 / 11.03.05
Your mate looks like he's drawn by Philip Bond? Lucky, lucky... given that a) Pakistan is not ethnically unitary anyway and b) it's a cartoon, I think we probably have to rely on description rather than design here - isn't Ali's family identified as originating from Pakistan?

Krug: Yeah, the East is East/ Hanif Kureishi thing is about what I felt. Vinamarana's a fun read, but it does feel tertiary.

Incidentally,I think the most recent census information gives Pakistan a population of about 160 million, of which 97% is identified as Muslim...
 
 
grant
14:04 / 11.03.05
I'm beginning to suspect that I've found the machine for writing "new British" comics (or whatever they call 'em) -- Morrison, Moore, Gaiman, Ellis, James Robinson, mmmayyyybe Milligan. It also applies to Michael Allred and probably a couple other American folks so "British" isn't right, exactly.

1. Take stereotypical/trite character, as cardboard as possible. (Immediately recognizable!)

2. Give mundane dialogue reflecting everyday concerns, not stereotypical concerns. (Also immediately recognizable -- the kind of thing you overhear in a diner.) (This would probably be Garth Ennis' weak point -- his dialogue always fits the characters.)

3. Add elements of the fantastic -- strange costumes, supernatural foes.

3a. Ensure that every fantastic element is flawed in some superficial way. If it's a superhero costume, it must have seams or wrinkles. If it's a technological gizmo, it must experience occasional static or downtime. If it's a mighty supernatural force, it must have occasional blue days.


-----
This is probably not a new realization, but I'd never really thought about how the same machine applied to pretty much every comic I enjoyed, from Flaming Carrot to Planetary. I think the real light bulb thing for me is that the characters aren't real or realistic -- it's all dialogue that makes them appear so, along with an occasional seam, wrinkle, or bit of duct tape drawn over 'em.

Hmm.
 
 
Krug
09:10 / 12.03.05
Grant's been saying "TWO PAKISTANI KIDS IN BRADFORD" every since the project was anounced and in every interview really.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:55 / 12.03.05
I thought I'd heard that, also.
 
 
The Falcon
14:01 / 12.03.05
Well, he's more an acquaintance. And I said 'a bit'.

You're probably right about the interviews; I'm sure it's not been in the book. Not that it would insulate against anything but Krug's critique.
 
 
Billuccho!
20:57 / 29.03.05
*resurrects thread*
Sales numbers are in, folks.

05/ 2004: Seaguy #1 (of 3) -- 21,512 -- [23,096]
06/ 2004: Seaguy #2 (of 3) -- 18,581 (-13.6%)
07/ 2004: Seaguy #3 (of 3) -- 16,601 (-10.7%)
08/ 2004: We3 #1 (of 3) -- 29,768 -- [35,269]
09/ 2004: --
10/ 2004: We3 #2 (of 3) -- 26,663 (-10.4%) -- [29,258]
11/ 2004: --
12/ 2004: --
01/ 2005: We3 #3 (of 3) -- 26,600 (- 0.2%) -- [28,625]
02/ 2005: Vimanarama #1 (of 3) -- 15,965

Less than even Seaguy at its worst. This doesn't really bode well...

I love comics. Quite often, though, I hate comics readership.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:41 / 30.03.05
Yikes.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:36 / 30.03.05
Unless I'm missing something, how does it not bode well? This wasn't going to be the first trilogy in a series, like Seaguy -- #3 will still come out -- Morrison and Bond will still get work in the industry. I guess the concept didn't appeal to a mass readership, which is perhaps a shame, but do these poor sales figures have any significant implications?
 
 
Billuccho!
21:13 / 30.03.05
It means that the other two issues will sell even less copies, and that there might not be a trade... though it's Morrison, so I expect them to trade it anyway.

But you'd think a Morrison/Bond pop comic would sell better.
 
 
grant
20:49 / 31.03.05
Does invite more race commentary, you think?
 
  

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