BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Vimanarama! #1

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
FinderWolf
13:35 / 15.02.05
Ditto.
 
 
--
19:00 / 15.02.05
Well, I like what Morrison is trying to do here, and the art is great (I've always felt that Philip Bond was one of the better artists to work with Morrison, along with Chris Weston. "Kill Your Boyfriend" is, artistically, one of my favorite GM comics). However, I dunno, this one just didn't really move me. "Seaguy" did (and I'm still waiting for that series to continue) and "We3" was great, but this one... I'm not going to say too much till I read the next two, but I just wasn't that excited about it. I mean, the characters are okay, the art's good, the writing's funny, but... I don't know. I'd actually like to read a long GM story (keep in mind I discovered him years after he had done "Animal Man" and "Doom Patrol" and "The Invisibles") on a month-by-month basis. Is "Seven Soldiers" supposed to be long?
 
 
The Natural Way
20:20 / 15.02.05
The "is the dance routine real or isn't it?" stuff just depressed the shit out of me. Some people here would do very well to consume just a teensy bit of art that doesn't fall into the american-men-in-tights bracket.
 
 
The Falcon
20:21 / 15.02.05
Sort of. It's 30 parts, comprised of two bookends and 7 separate 'modular' four-issue series'.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:26 / 15.02.05
>> The "is the dance routine real or isn't it?" stuff

It's both. It doesn't matter. It's wonderful and fun.

'Nuff said.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:59 / 01.03.05
preview for #2 is up at popcultureshock - new thread for #2 or keep this as the main thread for all 3 issues?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:15 / 01.03.05
I know it's not strictly speaking George's fault, but I find it mildly depressing that, over a decade on from Rogan Gosh, the experience of British Asians is still being portrayed in mainstream comics entirely by pasty white guys. And, whether or not George is just brilliantly subverting stereotypes of the British Asian experience by having the characters running a corner shop, the characters are still running a corner shop.
 
 
_Boboss
15:45 / 01.03.05
is the sprawling brit comic industry acting prejudicially towards british asians? awful to think that people might be being denied the megabucks due to racial discrimination.

of the four+ corner shops i've frequented in the last five or six years, all of them were run by asian families. where does honest representation of societal trends end and stereotyping, and then the trickier subversion of stereotypes, begin?
 
 
The Falcon
16:03 / 01.03.05
No, no, it's terrible.

Look at what the sodjie's saying to Ali there, though.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
16:20 / 01.03.05
Good old Uncle Pat Mills resisted the urge to have his lead characters run a corner shop in The Megazine's 'Black Siddhe' story. Oh no, not Uncle Pat. It was his girlfirends dad who ran the shop.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:18 / 01.03.05
of the four+ corner shops i've frequented in the last five or six years, all of them were run by asian families. where does honest representation of societal trends end and stereotyping, and then the trickier subversion of stereotypes, begin?

But "most corner shops are run by Asians" doesn't mean "most Asians run a corner shop".
 
 
_Boboss
07:56 / 02.03.05
wow! you must be The Logic-Master or something!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:05 / 02.03.05
I didn't realise Vertigo Comics was a part of the British comics industry. Silly old me.

Faced with any issue more complex than "is Magneto really Polaris' dad?", the Comic Books forum, as is traditional, gives a cataclysmic mindfart and collapses.
 
 
_Boboss
10:02 / 02.03.05
hey? you raised a point, there was a couple of replies broadening the thought a bit, a couple shrinking it again, and then with your first effort subsequent to starting the thought you declare it dead? didn't know it had properly started yet.

so there are comics in india and pakistan (know that from rogan gosh...) but what do we know about any british-asian comic makers? is there any market of blueskinned superhero comics in translation available? is there a huge premiership full of new artists tring to break through? i hope so.

my thoughts on the stereotyping issue are, surprisingly, a bit of a muddle. i think the point i'll run with to begin is that (the senior generation of) ali's family aren't shopkeepers as a flag of their asianness, but of their britishness*. though there is an issue of legitimacy (perhaps there are families like ali's: are they being stereotyped or just described with eerie and affectionate precision? why shouldn't people like them be represented as characters in a work of typical vertigosity/ magickal realismo/ everyday people in crazyday situations?)it's impossible to deny that the characters in ali's family are being presented as types - i would though deny that those types are malign, unless they can be demonstrated to be causing some kind of harm. what are the actual implications of their presentation? that asians can only be shopkeepers, live in poorly-designed (sub)urban environments, have old-fashioned parents? those strike me as almost universal attributes, not ones that limit the fair portrayal of these characters. i think that types are convenient abstractions, especially useful in comedy- or adventure-narratives, and their use needs to be demonstrated to be actively negative before it should be condemned: some related examples that might help: what do we think of the shopkeeper in shaun of the dead? is his race used as an issue at all? is it cool that he has no real lines and becomes a zombie? is the current portrayal of adi-in-eastenders as an all-work no-love kinda grump proof that a poorly conceived stereotype's attributes will be inherently negative and resurface perpetually?

(* nation of shopkeepers [do you get good sterotypes by mash-upping two old/bad ones?]. the youngers are defined, regardless of their chores and family responsibilities, in association with post-commercial quartenary-sector employment - art and academia, or media, the uk's idealogical growth industries if not quite the financial ones.)

though the casting of the family in the corner shop, as someone said upstairs, wouldn't appear in a soap opera, a soap opera wouldn't ever afford an asian hero such a clear chance of saving the whole world. given the exaggerations and exultations that the characters in this and other funnybooks like it are subject to, is it fair to consider their denigrations in the same light that one would a dodgily-presented character in a different, more 'realistic' medium?
 
 
sleazenation
10:42 / 02.03.05
I am ignorant of his ethnic background, but Nabiel Kanan (Exit, the Birthday Riots, Lost girl, The Drowners) might qualify as a British Asian comic maker.

As for Bollywood-fusion comics - there was Bombaby from SLG a year or so back...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:54 / 02.03.05
Well, I felt the immediate response was flippant and sought to defuse the question. I'm glad we're looking in more depth now.

i think the point i'll run with to begin is that (the senior generation of) ali's family aren't shopkeepers as a flag of their asianness, but of their britishness*.

That seems exculpatory to me. If that *is* the case, why are all Grant Morrison's British characters not shopkeepers? Off the top of my head, the only characters in Grant Morrison's work who have been shopkeepers (Ali's family and the shopkeeper in The Filth) have been Asian, whereas many characters in his work who have been British have not kept shop. Which is sort of a thing...

Now, of course our expectations are being played with here, George is being clever blah blah fishcakes, and I am sure that he will subvert etc. However, as I said above, that doesn't alter that fact that I'm more comfortable with play with the stereotypical presentations of British Asianness - corner shops, arranged marriages, Bollywood, H0tt South Asian babes - when it comes from British Asian writers. Possibly that's a bit cowardly of me.

So, there's a distinction to be drawn in the first place between "this is using and subverting stereotypes" and "this is just representing the truth" - which is why kovacs' response deserved, IMHO, rather more respect than it got. None of the British Asians I know, or have known, own or owned corner shops. Therefore, unless I know no British Asians, the set of British Asians does not equal the set of corner shopkeepers. As such, Morrison had the option of having his main family not be shopkeepers, and decided to do so. This was an artistic decision - it may be knowing subversion, it may be handy narrative shorthand, it may be a love of the culture and media of the 1970s in a Morrissey stylee.

More generally on the paucity of British Asian comics writers - I don't know what Nabiel Kanan's background is, but he is certainly an example of a very talented writer who has never for whatever reason been to my knowledge picked up or pushed by any of the big US publishers. More generally, I have no idea how many British Asians there are who want to be comics writers. Given that the number of _people_ who want to be comics writers is in the greater scheme of things vanishingly small, I imagine the numbers won't be huge, but I don't have any evidence for that besides gut feeling, so it may be disregarded.

I suspect I further imagine that if the comics produced by writers from your country who have been successful in the big markets of the US only ever seem to have Asian characters who are a) dayglo Hindlamic deities, b) h0tt babes (who may also be dayglo Hindlamic deities), c) surly shopkeepers or, at a pinch, d) the dutiful/disaffected children of (c) in a Hanif Kureishi stylee, you may not feel massively motivated to be their friend, which is lest we forget one of the major motivations of many budding comics writers.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:36 / 02.03.05
Sypha, to be fair, yr not really supposed to be getting the pipe, beard and deepness out for this one. Yes, there are people on this board who will obssess about the references to Hindu mythology, but there's always the possibility of enjoying Vimanarama as a slight, disposable but immensely fun read.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:41 / 02.03.05
Preview's at popcultureshock. Can't cut and paste on this stupid computer, so you'll have to find it yrself.

I just love the way the fossil demons are so completely disgusted by us.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:44 / 02.03.05
The preview pages of issue 2 are hilarious: an MP screaming "This is all your fault, Ali!" as the British army battles godlike flying saucers.
 
 
_Boboss
15:37 / 02.03.05
an MP? wolfie, he's in a tank...

oh, right, that kind of MP. just 'soldier' really to avoid confusion.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
19:57 / 02.03.05
That said the first major Asian family in Corrie were shopkeepers and the next Asian character they intoduced after that was introduced in the context of an arranged marriage. It's only been recently, once that stereotype was out the way, have they been able to introduce Asian characters who didn't run shops - a lawyer and a skip-wagon driver.

Sorry, that doesn't add a single thing to the debate, does it?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:57 / 02.03.05
Picking up on Haus' point, I can't but agree that this is at best narrative shorthand. It's not "realistic" that religious deities, arranged marriages and corner shops should feature in a story about an Asian teenager, any more than Jesus, cricket and public schools should feature in one about a White British lad. Yes, there are individuals to whom the latter three elements are very important.

But with Morrison's white characters, their whiteness -- skin colour and the accompanying attitudes, culture and behaviour that we might call "ethnicity" -- isn't a foregrounded characteristic. His white characters would be better summed up as "cowardly and arrogant", "cat-lover", "mother-fixated", "Scottish cynic" (that last crops up a few times, admittedly.) With Ali, I feel the Asianness is presented as a major part of his character. Apart from that, what have you got? He likes fit women. He's helpful but complains mildly. He's a bit melodramatic. Those aren't really stand-out character traits, and in all honesty I don't know who would pick those aspects if someone asked them "hey, the main guy in this new Mozza comic, what's he like?" ("Well, he's a British Asian...")

If someone asked what Seaguy or Zenith were like, I doubt very much "white" would crop up in your first 500 words.

Now, I can see counter-arguments to this already, but rather than anticipate, incorporate and try to answer them, I'll leave it there.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:15 / 03.03.05
He likes fit women

Crikey ! I should cocoa ! The last one to the newsagent's on Thursday is a bleeding Zoo reader, innit, the w£$%ers.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:06 / 04.03.05
Violent animals and soft-hearted women. A guy in a wetsuit who has girl problems and an easy going manner. A man with piercings who likes guns and has no hair. An old woman with an intriguing past. A tramp who once had money. A poor, bright kid who likes to dance. A lesbian with short hair called Roger. I could go on. When is George ever without his stereotypes?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:44 / 04.03.05
I'm sure there might be multiple universes of irony in the last post, but apart from a lesbian with short hair called Roger, I don't see how any of those are stereotypes.
 
 
Triplets
18:53 / 04.03.05
Violent animals and soft-hearted women. A guy in a wetsuit who has girl problems and an easy going manner. A man with piercings who likes guns and has no hair. An old woman with an intriguing past. A tramp who once had money. A poor, bright kid who likes to dance. A lesbian with short hair called Roger.

Huh, these are neither stereotypes nor archetypes. Apart from Jolly Rancher, of course.

I had a bit of a brain fart and thought you were saying Goraiko keeps regurgitating these, um, Morrisotypes throughout his work. But he doesn't even do that.
 
 
The Falcon
19:50 / 04.03.05
'Soft-hearted women' are stereotypes.

The human characters in We3 aren't terribly interesting or 3D, though the male doctor is apparently supposed to look like Hayao Miyazaki.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:53 / 04.03.05
"Soft-hearted women" isn't really more of a stereotype in comics than "easy-going man". "Tough bitch" would be as much of a stereotype.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:17 / 05.03.05
Well done, Anna. I understand yr post not at all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 05.03.05
I think we may be confusing stereotypes and stock elements...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:43 / 05.03.05
I think it's more that people are confusing a non-humourous response with what Nina actually said...
 
 
grant
17:13 / 09.03.05
I wonder... this might be a distinction without difference, but it seems to me like the Asian-family-that-owns-corner-shop might be less important as a story element than the Asian-shop-with-mysterious-tunnels-leading-to-Hindu-deities.

Since, after all, every one of those Asian-owned shops is a gateway to another dimension, and who knows what secrets they've got around back....
 
 
grant
20:13 / 09.03.05
Another thing strikes me -- a couple of the visuals seem to take stabs at/mickey out of Bollywood, but the characters seem almost directly stolen from East is East.

Which, if you haven't seen it, is sort of like Fiddler on the Roof in a 1970s chip shop, without the musical numbers and with spousal abuse. And was written by a Pakistani playwright/screenwriter, for what it's worth.

And by "characters" I mean all the characters -- the ones who aren't gods, anyway. And the whole arranged-marriage-angst situation, too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:15 / 09.03.05
Actually, Ayub Khan-Din was born in Salford. His father was from Pakistan, his mother English. East is East is to a fair extent autobiographical. Whether the characters are taken from it is a bit of a question - I think there's a lot of media about second generation British Asians that you're not likely to see much of in the US, which makes that less of a lock.
 
 
diz
22:38 / 09.03.05
Haus: Now, of course our expectations are being played with here, George is being clever blah blah fishcakes, and I am sure that he will subvert etc. However, as I said above, that doesn't alter that fact that I'm more comfortable with play with the stereotypical presentations of British Asianness - corner shops, arranged marriages, Bollywood, H0tt South Asian babes - when it comes from British Asian writers. Possibly that's a bit cowardly of me.

kovacs: But with Morrison's white characters, their whiteness -- skin colour and the accompanying attitudes, culture and behaviour that we might call "ethnicity" -- isn't a foregrounded characteristic.


i have to admit that i do, too, but that sort of leaves us in a weird spot. in general, i´m always feeling icky about writers or filmmakers or whoever using protagonists of a different race or ethnicity than their own, because it brings up all kinds of issues of power and representation and all that. i´m doubly uncomfortable when the Otherness of that ethnicity is as foregrounded as it is here, in the way that kovacs so sharply points out.

however, on the other hand, i don´t know how comofortable i am with saying that someone shouldn´t write another person´s ethnic experience, as setting up boundaries of that sort seems to be essentializing ethnic difference in a way that may be unhelpful.

on the other other hand, i´m excited to be reading a fun, cosmic psychedelic adventure story in the classic GM fashion. of course, it´s practically the definition of white privilege to be able to overlook sticky issues of ethnicity and power and so on and so forth in the pursuit of one´s own enjoyment.

i´m reading it, i´m enjoying it, and i don´t know how i feel about the political or moral implications of either of those facts.

i am, however, unsure of how i will feel about this going forward on how the "Hindlamic" (thanks, Haus) deities issue gets addressed. i have no idea how it works in Pakistan or elsewhere in South Asia, but it´s my understanding that Arab Muslims, at least, generally view pre-Islamic Arab culture as being something wholly other than their own, and, in general, that Islam encourages the devout to basically divide history in two with a sharp line drawn at the revelation of the Quran to Muhammed. i don´t know how much i would expect a contemporary British Asian to think of deities worshipped in his ancestral homeland prior to the coming of Islam as part of his past, as opposed to part of the past. it seems to be comparable to the way contemporary Egyptian Muslims don´t (again, to my understanding) acknowledge ancient Egyptian culture as part of their cultural heritage. of course, modern Egyptians are mostly Arabs, and the ancient Egyptians were not, but it still seems relevant.
 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
  
Add Your Reply