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DC All-Stars

 
  

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H3ct0r L1m4
21:26 / 21.12.04
someone copied the full Wizard article here.
 
 
John Octave
22:41 / 21.12.04
After all, little kids don't have the cash flow to throw down three bucks for a comic book. Sell them for a dollar, print them on crappy paper. It worked for all of us as children.

Well, it's gotten the point where adults don't even have the cash flow to throw down three bucks for a comic book. The reason books like SHE-HULK and RUNAWAYS (which get good reviews, but nobody buys) get cancelled is 'cos three dollars is kind of a heavy investment for twenty-two pages of story that you might not even like. When comics used to cost under a dollar, you could just try something new on a whim, but when you live in an age where ten bucks only buys three comics, you have to budget yourself pretty rigidly.

Does anyone know if having glossy interior stock on comics makes a noticeable difference in the price of comics? (I'm assuming it does, but I know next-to-nothing of paper prices.) I don't know how it happened, but somehow glossy interior paper became the industry standard, and everyone's afraid to use the old stuff again for fear of looking cheap. I'd love it if they used the classy paper stock in trades for people who are attached to the crispness it affords and do monthlies on the old stock if it brings the price down. It doesn't seem like there's any real reason I shouldn't be able to buy a Superman comic for under a buck-fifty. And I'm going to be absolutely poor from buying all those SEVEN SOLDIERS books.
 
 
diz
00:26 / 22.12.04
That I think is a real problem, and something I think Marvel & DC ought to be doing more of. Give away free comics at movie theatres complete with a flier for the local comic store.

i'm picturing the parking lot of the local multiplex looking like the street outside of a nightclub after closing time: dead flyers and wasted paper everywhere.

besides, the problem is that casual readers aren't going to go out of their way for this, even if you give them freebies to start them off. comics used to be ubiquitous impulse-buy items, and they need to be again to reach a mass audience (i.e. survive, honestly).

Dizfactor - I agree, DC seem to have got some real talent working on this, and hopefully it will produce a quality product that will turn some people on to comics. Not because the product is mainstream friendly, but because it is a quality piece of work (I hope).

i think the best signs we have of at least the Superman book being awesome are Seaguy and JLA: Classified, which represent GM moving towards supercompressed storytelling as a reaction to decompression. i'm not totally anti-decompression, but this shit will never fly at $3.00 for 22 pages of Ultimate Nick Fury on Real Time w/Bill Maher discussing the complex intricacies of the AIDS situation in Ultimate Wakanda. this needs to be mile-a-minute unapologetically fun, creative superhero adventure, and that seems to be the direction GM is moving in terms of superhero storytelling.

I mean, really. Where did you start reading comics? For me, it was the local drug store.

the local supermarket and the spinner rack at the bookstore in the mall. and, honestly, the first three comics i followed regularly were big 80s licensed titles: Star Wars, GI Joe, and Transformers. also, for some reason, i was really into reading the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe long before i was really into superhero comics. weird.

There's no need to ape manga style either - not every little kid is going to respond to that, and some will appreciate a difference in style.

oh god, please no. taking iconic Western characters and making them all "big eyes, small mouth" usually ends up being about as cool as a your dad trying to work hip-hop slang into conversations. it never comes out right, and you look stupid for trying. the Teen Titans cartoon is an exception, but that's sort of different.

I'd love it if they used the classy paper stock in trades for people who are attached to the crispness it affords and do monthlies on the old stock if it brings the price down.

that's brilliant, frankly. makes the monthlies more like, well, comics, and the trades classy and stylish enough to justify the price.
 
 
CameronStewart
02:14 / 22.12.04
>>> think the best signs we have of at least the Superman book being awesome are Seaguy and JLA: Classified, which represent GM moving towards supercompressed storytelling as a reaction to decompression.<<<

I was really surprised at how quickly Grant's scripts for The Manhattan Guardian move - Issue 1 is the origin of The Guardian and we have him running around in costume by the middle of the book. Compared to most recent superhero comics (e.g Ultimate Spider-Man, in which it took what, 4 issues to get Peter in costume?) it moves at an incredibly fast pace. I wonder how the decompressionists will feel reading it.

I know that I LOVE drawing it.
 
 
diz
02:58 / 22.12.04
I know that I LOVE drawing it.

that's another sign of good things to come right there...

how fast is Guardian compared to Seaguy? Seaguy, to me, was really energetic and fast-paced. it was like, "he's on Easter Island! now he's in Atlantis! now he's on the moon!" if that makes any sense. is it moving at that kind of pace? faster? slower?

i think that compression plays to GM's strengths as a storyteller, personally. he's really good at distilling a hell of a lot into a very small amount of "screen time." i mean, how much did we ever see of Reynard from The Invisibles or Tom Skylark and Rover from NXM?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:10 / 22.12.04
Implicit in the idea of an "All-Star" line is a tacit admission that most of DC's output is impenetrable guff produced by second-rate talents. To me, that looks like a sign that it's time to clean house and clear away the deadwood. But for the geniuses at Time-Warner, it's an acceptable status quo.

Well, when even the supposedly more 'discerning' comic book fans lap that shit up - by which I mean buy it - "Identity Crisis? Green Lantern: ReTcon? Yes please!" - who can blame them?
 
 
NezZ
09:39 / 22.12.04
I have a couple of points to make, so bear with me.

Firstly, I think that comics will eventually die, which is a DAMN shame but there is sooo much stigma attached to the medium, it is ridiculous. It seems that DC is trying to make their characters 'movie' worthy. This may not be a bad thing, but I feel that in the next two years the movie market will be oversaturated with comic movies, and this will have a harmful effect once the big studios lose interest.

Secondly, I think the price argument is interesting. A comic book costs about £2 - £3 for 22 pages in the UK. Now I know nothing about paper pricing aswell, but I can buy a photography magazine for £3.50 with 178 glossy pages at A4 size. Which kind of makes me scratch my head and think 'WHY?' are comics so expensive.

And lastly, DC is showing 2005 is one to watch, as they start to provide some A-list comics, so I hope by the end of next year my cynical mind is changed for good.

"DOWN WITH CONTINUITY"
 
 
The Falcon
10:52 / 22.12.04
I like the idea of there being a movement of 'decompressionists'.

I dunno, I really like superhero comics, and probably read them too much, but I'd absolutely welcome their diminishing import & bulk in the market. To do that without disenfranchising large proportions of the remaining readership would be very difficult; there'll always be a protion of readers who want Chris Claremont writing X-Men, and for whom Chris Claremont is the only man who can write X-Men.

God knows why, but there will. Given that, and the fact he now reads as very stodgy and dated, Marvel (believes it) has to open up 2nd, 3rd and 4th fronts for other people who might be interested in reading X-Men comics.

Ethan van used to say this all the time; to my mind, you're talking about a market that caters, by necessity, to the whims of some very anal, cynical and aging fanmen.

4 Superman titles, on what's a pretty hard-sell anyway, seems silly. But I'll certainly be having this one, and if DC does some of what's suggested in Grant's interview (primarily the manga-sized digest and different methods of distribution) there's a good chance a few other people I know, who are not habitual comic readers, will read it too.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:15 / 22.12.04
Firstly, I think that comics will eventually die.

What, all of them? When? Comics are unique, bought by people who want to read comics. This is why it doesn't matter if Spiderman movies are successful - it doesn't make anyone read comics who wasn't before. Going to see Captain Corelli's fucking Mandolin doesn't make people read books if there not inclined to do so. As such, comics occupy a niche in the market that only comics can fill. They won't be replaced, because there's nothing to replce them by.
Superman and Batman may not sell by the billion any more, but all the little goth girls and boys who frequent my local all seem to be lapping up the Slave Labour titles, and manga seems to sell well all over. McSweeney's have released their compendium to great critical and financial success. Surely whats going on with Marvel and DC isn't necessarily exemplary for the whole industry.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
13:44 / 22.12.04
After all, little kids don't have the cash flow to throw down three bucks for a comic book. Sell them for a dollar, print them on crappy paper. It worked for all of us as children.

I disagree.

They have no problem throwing down $50 for a video game, $20 for a DVD or $10 for a manga. It's PRECIEVED cost that holds people back. When they sell a Halo novel for $7, people buy it, but a Silent Hill comic book that sells 32 pages for $4 isn't going to sell because it seems more expensive.

If DC is smart, they'll package these All Star series in a way that gets them next to all the manga, and gives them a fighting chance.

The Manga Revolution has proved that kids will buy comics if they are comics kids want to buy.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:30 / 22.12.04
The cost should be lower than the manga. It should be low enough that people buy it as an afterthought. Impulse buying. Print it on newsprint, charge no more than a $1.50

It's stupid to engage the manga marketplace, to try to compete with that. It's better to claim other markets and retail locations and make business partnerships that will reach more people. Manga does really well, but it is still a subcultural thing. Superman and Batman are established American cultural icons and have a much larger sales potential.
 
 
Bed Head
14:53 / 22.12.04
I'd love it if they used the classy paper stock in trades for people who are attached to the crispness it affords and do monthlies on the old stock if it brings the price down.

makes the monthlies more like, well, comics, and the trades classy and stylish enough to justify the price.

Neeeeever gonna happen. I completely agree, it should, but it won’t. The guys who buy trade paperbacks, in real shops, they’re the ones who demand and get value for money from now on in. They’re the ones DC are eager to please, that’s the market they’re looking to grow. One tpb for 10 dollars, rather than 10 pulps at a dollar each. I really think the monthlies are *only* being viewed as a marketplace full of suckers to squeeze while it lasts. I really don’t think DC have *any* interest in mass-market newsstand sales, and I certainly don’t think they much fancy their chances of selling zillions of units at a dollar a time. They’ve developed this very specialised market over decades, where continuity and crossovers serve to cement loyalty without the need for great stories, and without the constant danger that someone else is going to come along and just nick all your ideas and all your readers. It’s easier that way. Y’know, all that red Kryptonite, super-apes-on-the-cover stuff that Morrison goes on about as selling millions, it came out of an ‘industry’ that reinvented itself all the time and chased sales mercilessly and did whatever worked. Fast footwork and frazzled nerves. They're not going to choose that, not as long as there are still a few people who'll keep buying Any Old Shit at Whatever Price. Chasing a zeitgeist is a hard way to earn a living.

We have a real example of the current mindset in action: the Paul Pope book, 100% - drawn in black and white, *designed* to be a pulpy story, and intended to be printed on affordable, pulpy paper, or so we’re told. And it’s a brilliant comic, the potential audience for that story seemed massive. But DC decided at some point that glossy paper selling for almost fiver an issue would be a better idea. Result: dreadful sales - I actually know people that picked up the first issue, got to the till, and put it back again as soon as they heard the price, which is fucking insane, even if it wasn’t the greatest thing they’ve published all year. Which it is. Could’ve had a hit, but actually *decided* to bleed their customers dry instead. That’s the American comics industry, as run by DC.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:14 / 22.12.04
Manga does really well, but it is still a subcultural thing.

According to its website, SHONEN JUMP has a monthly circulation of 175,000. That’s month in, month out.

After a debut of about 230k, the Jim Lee/Brian Azzarello SUPERMAN has leveled off at about 113,000—which represents a huge jump: before they took over the book it was hanging out at 35-50k (source: note that these represent direct market sales only).

These are considered great numbers for a DC monthly. Big events like IDENTITY CRISIS or SUPERMAN/BATMAN occasionally crowd up into SHONEN JUMP territory, but for the most part a book is considered a modest success if it sells upwards of 25k. Hell, the monthly 100 BULLETS is considered a hit, and it sells one-tenth of SHONEN JUMP’s numbers.

Superman and Batman are established American cultural icons and have a much larger sales potential.

Superman has more name recognition with the general public, but in terms of who’s actually reading the comics...?

I really don’t think you can dismiss manga as “subcultural” any more—or, if you do, you’ve got to consider it in its proper place as part of youth culture, to which you and I (sadly) no longer belong, and which will eventually make our culture obsolete.

Rock and roll was once the “new thing,” the subculture, and in a remarkably short time it became the dominant culture—because it had the same synergy, the same media and merchandising ubiquity that drives manga properties like YU-GI-OH.

You don’t prosper, in the long term, by backing “the established cultural icons”—but by figuring out who the next icons are going to be, and putting your support behind them. To return to the music analogy: kids in the Sixties had all heard of Lawrence Welk—he was an established cultural icon, after all—but by and large they didn’t watch his show if they could help it. Should the record companies have concentrated their efforts on trying to sell Lawrence Welk to teenagers, instead of signing the Beatles and the Stones?

We don’t expect children to listen to their parents’ pop music: Why on Earth do we expect them to read their parents’ comics?

You may not dig the stuff personally, but it’s going to outlive us both. Roll on evolution.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:20 / 22.12.04
According to its website, SHONEN JUMP has a monthly circulation of 175,000. That’s month in, month out.

Yeah, but I'm not saying that the rest of the industry isn't subcultural. I'm saying that Shonen Jump has less of a chance of reaching people outside of a VERY SPECIFIC demo, whereas Superman arguably has greater potential all-ages readership base given how recognizable he is as a character. Ditto Spider-Man, Batman, X-Men.

175,000 is a big number for comics, but it's almost nothing in terms of relativity. More people read Pitchfork and Gawker. Your average indie music hit sells about as much, or more. Even the biggest movie bombs get a bigger audience than that.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:28 / 22.12.04
I think that the comics industry needs to (re)embrace the mass market before we declare what an imaginary readership wants. Just because one thing worked and sold a few thousand more to a certain subculture doesn't mean you can't sell WAY more of a totally different comic product if the company put in the marketing work and made the product accessable/affordable.

I'm not so sure anymore that the problem is the content (sometimes it is, obvs) but rather that there is zero advertising and market research in the industry and that the primary retail outlet for comics are comic shops, which are often off-putting and sometimes hard to come by.

I don't think comics are obsolete. You can get people to buy almost anything with good marketing. You can't blame people for not buying things that they aren't aware of. The industry is run by people who are terrible businessmen, and good businessmen would rather put their time and effort into a sure thing.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:38 / 22.12.04
I'm saying that Shonen Jump has less of a chance of reaching people outside of a VERY SPECIFIC demo, whereas Superman arguably has greater potential all-ages readership base given how recognizable he is as a character.

I'm confused. Are you asserting that SHONEN JUMP readers (and manga readers in general) are a subset of comics readers as a whole? Because that's simply not so. The crossover is relatively small: there are many, many people—kids, mostly, and a lot of them girls—who read manga exclusively—that is, who don't read any Western comics at all, because they don't go to comics shops—they pick up SHONEN JUMP at the bookstore, the drugstore, the grocery store, the video store, the discount store...

My daughter knows the ins & outs of Yu-Gi-Oh, but has only the faintest idea of Superman's powers and origins.

This is, I think, exactly as it should be.
 
 
diz
15:49 / 22.12.04
They have no problem throwing down $50 for a video game, $20 for a DVD or $10 for a manga. It's PRECIEVED cost that holds people back. When they sell a Halo novel for $7, people buy it, but a Silent Hill comic book that sells 32 pages for $4 isn't going to sell because it seems more expensive.

well, it is more expensive, if you look at it in terms of dollars per hour of entertainment. a 22-page comic usually takes, what, ten minutes to read? at $3.00, that's $18.00 per hour. Halo 2 takes experienced gamers at least 10-12 hours to finish. at $50.00, that's $5.00 per hour. Halo novels are $7.00 for a few hours of reading, but they also get sales on the strength of the videogame.

that's one thing that comics seem to do very poorly: synergy. Yu-Gi-Oh has anime, manga, action figures (i think), video games (again, i think), and trading cards, and they all feed each other. why can't comics seem to get that kind of virtuous cycle going, no matter how well superhero movies and cartoons do?

Manga does really well, but it is still a subcultural thing.

only in the sense that everything's a subcultural thing now. when we're talking about mass markets, we're really talking about really big niche markets, because by the standards of even 15-20 years ago, we don't really have mass markets anymore.

but maybe that speaks to the synergy point: manga and anime still have a pretty tight sense of cultural identity, and so when you get into it you're going to buy into the whole package. it may be that the ubiquity of these characters is working against synergistic effects. going to see Spider-Man 2 at the multiplex doesn't naturally lead one into a heightened sense of tribal loyalty because Spider-Man is a larger cultural icon who's no longer limited to the comics tribe.

which, of course, goes to Jack Fear's point about how none of us are part of youth culture anymore, and our icons aren't, either.

maybe i've been wrong about a lot of this. maybe the problem isn't that someone like Superman "should be" selling millions because he's so big, maybe the problem is that he's too big, and so being "into" Superman can no longer convey the sense of subcultural belonging that drives sales in the youth market.

Y’know, all that red Kryptonite, super-apes-on-the-cover stuff that Morrison goes on about as selling millions, it came out of an ‘industry’ that reinvented itself all the time and chased sales mercilessly and did whatever worked. Fast footwork and frazzled nerves.

that's true. most of the comics we revere from the Golden and Silver Ages were put out by really fly-by-night operations in a really unstable industry. DC is part of a huge media corporation right now, and Marvel is a publicly-traded company. by nature, there are different levels of risk tolerance.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:21 / 22.12.04
Jack, my feeling is that there is a limit to how large an audience for manga can be in the United States. There is a certian base number of young people predisposed to liking this stuff, but I don't think it has much potential to trickle up into other demographics. In fact, I think that it's a huge uphill battle. It's better for that market to grow at the rate it's been going. It's doing fine. But there's still a massive cultural bias AGAINST this stuff, and that probably won't change until this generation of kids is older.

I think that it's easier to sell Marvel and DC's iconic characters to WIDER audiences. So the potential for sales is higher.

Again, it's all about marketing and access. I think that most any product could do well if they just put the money and effort into it. It doesn't matter if it's Superman or Yu-Gi-Oh.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:26 / 22.12.04
But there's still a massive cultural bias AGAINST this stuff...

From whom, and why?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:47 / 22.12.04
According to its website, SHONEN JUMP has a monthly circulation of 175,000. That’s month in, month out.

The big thing to remember with that figure is that Shonen Jump only sells 8,000 a month in comic book shops. Contrast that with Superman, which isn't stocked outside comic shops much at all, and it would surprise me if it sold more than 15,000 outside the comics market.

So, if they publish All Stars in the normal comics format and sell it in normal comic stores, using the normal marketing formats (monthlies, followed by hardcover, followed by softcover) I don't think it will make much of an impact. DC has made a LOT of mistakes in this realm lately, not the least of which has been releasing graphic novels in a standard format that end with "To be continued"...

I think All Stars could be a lot of fun,mand a way to get people to pick up comics who haven't in a while, but if they just keep selling to the same people, you're just pulling money from a different part of the market instead of expanding the market.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:52 / 22.12.04
But there's still a massive cultural bias AGAINST this stuff...

From whom, and why?

The only bias I can tell is from older fanboys who "hate that manga stuff" and complain whenever their comics don't look like the comics they grew up with. There is very little bias with younger readers who have taken to the Japanese style in huge numbers. I just look at the success of Tokyo Pop and the Anime on Cartoon Network and it shows me that people WANT comics, they were just driven away by the unreadable crap that flooded the stands for years.
 
 
diz
17:53 / 22.12.04
Jack, my feeling is that their is a limit to how large an audience for manga can be in the United States. There is a certian base number of young people predisposed to liking this stuff, but I don't think it has much potential to trickle up into other demographics.

this is different from other cultural products how?

But there's still a massive cultural bias AGAINST this stuff...

against manga? where?

I think that most any product could do well if they just put the money and effort into it.

i don't know if i buy that. rather, i'm sure that i don't buy that. people overestimate what marketing can do, and, more to the point, overestimate what a mistake it is to overestimate your potential market.

comics do need to expand to a larger market, and, in particular, to a younger market that's more gender-balanced. that means getting out of the comic store and into places where people who don't read comics spend time. however, at the same time, i think the idea of some sort of huge multigenerational mass-market explosion is a fantasy. where manga is right now is, basically, the upper limit on what we can and should expect comics to be selling, and that would constitute what passes for a mass-market in a niche-market age.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:13 / 22.12.04
i think the idea of some sort of huge multigenerational mass-market explosion is a fantasy. where manga is right now is, basically, the upper limit on what we can and should expect comics to be selling, and that would constitute what passes for a mass-market in a niche-market age.

That's the bitch, though, isn't it? It kills me to think that Captain Marvel was selling FIFTEEN MILLION COPIES EVERY MONTH in 1944—when America's population overall was only about half what it is now. And the character was only introduced in 1940, so it's not like he was "an established cultural icon" yet, either.

Obviously price and accessibility are part of the problem, but we shouldn't underestimate the role that the fragmented and acutely-targeted cultural marketplace plays in this mess. Not that there was ever an American monoculture, even in the 1940s: but it's possible now, to an unprecedented degree since the advent of mass communications, for people to live in the same country and yet have almost no cultural signifiers in common.

Superman is one of those few remaining common cultural touchstones, sure—but even he can't last forever. Nor should he.
 
 
diz
19:01 / 22.12.04
Not that there was ever an American monoculture, even in the 194s: but it's possible now, to an unprecedented degree since the advent of mass communications, for people to live in the same country and yet have almost no cultural signifiers in common.

Superman is one of those few remaining common cultural touchstones, sure—but even he can't last forever. Nor should he.


on a semi-side note, i think it's worth comparing the way DC has handled that icon status to the way another icon of comparable status has been handled: Mickey Mouse.

i think Mickey is one of the few peers that Superman can truly be said to have, but Disney has handled him in a totally different way. Mickey himself is used primarily as a branding icon, not a character. there are a few Disney movies where Mickey Mouse is a character, but for the most part, he's just that logo of the silhouette of his head. when you drive up the 5 through Anaheim at night, you can look over towards the park, and there it is: a ghostly purple outline of the head with the ears on the roller coaster in California Adventure. when you walk around the park, the image of the Mickey ears is hidden in various locations.

that logo stands for a huge array of other characters, other movies, theme park rides, etc. there are certain common themes and moods associated with the Disney brand, but there's enough diversity to appeal to a fairly wide array of people, and (and i think this is important) Mickey gets associated with all of them without being diluted, because at some point Walt must have realized that there are only so many stories you can tell about the same damn mouse.

the Superman "S" has that kind of iconic status, but i think the character has been diluted by decades of overuse and, inevitably, mediocre to poor use. if you're pumping out 500+ comics per decade starring Superman, the odds are that most of them are going to be crap, and that sort of overuse and poor use means that the character can't tap into the power of the cultural icon.

look at how Smallville works: normal teen drama, normal teen drama, normal teen drama... glimpse of the "S" logo or a new mention of some bit of lore. it treats the bits and pieces of the Superman legend like holy relics, and taps straight into the font of its cultural power.

i think the All-Star Superman project is a good step, because it's not playing stupid continuity games and starting from the premise that the parts of the Superman legend that everybody knows are part of the Superman legend should be included. it's also bound to be good, which means the good Superman/crap Superman ratio will get balanced out some more.

i think DC should go further, however, and just cancel all the crap Superman titles outright, because they aren't worth diluting him for whatever money they bring in. for all the faults of Identity Crisis, the way they handled Superman was mostly perfect: you seldom see him but everyone treats him like a god among men and speaks of him in reverential whispers. they need to refocus the day-to-day of the DCU on new and/or obscure characters that new readers can discover and think of as their own, or, hell, even do the same with second-tier characters like the Flash and GL. then they can use the Big Three and especially Superman sparingly, and only trusting them with the best creators.

i don't think Superman can ever be as big as he used to be, or that anyone will ever have that kind of broad appeal again, but what power he does have could be used to best effect the more they deal with him as an icon and the less he's tainted with the day-to-day.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:06 / 22.12.04
I think All Stars could be a lot of fun,mand a way to get people to pick up comics who haven't in a while

Kind of with you there. The only problem is, what with US comics no longer being newsagent material (at least here in the UK), how do people who haven't picked up comics in a while know this (or indeed anything else they may be interested in comics-wise) is happening?

I think this is one of the reasons why the big two so often go for the "killing of a long-established character" angle- you kill Robin, or for that matter reveal Superman to be, I dunno, a squirrel or something- and it gets in the news. And people who don't read comics, or used to but don't anymore, find out about it. Then they read it, think "this was just a crappy trick to make me buy it", and go away just as unimpressed as before.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:44 / 22.12.04
My whole point in this thread basically comes down to this: no one is doing the market research, no one is really engaging with mass market retailers as they should, so it's really unfair to claim that manga is the death of American comics when they barely exist on the same playing field. I think that American comics have a lot of advantages over the manga, and manga has some advantages over Marvel and DC. In a lot of other ways, Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly have a big advantage over either. Comparing these disparate facets of the industry gets very apples & oranges and has a lot more to do with the stores selling these items than the content usually.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:48 / 22.12.04
So I think that the death of the American superhero comic is a bit overstated by the doomsayers. I think a decline is a natural progression, but the death of the medium and its iconic characters is not going to happen any time soon.
 
 
Mario
21:21 / 22.12.04
Would anyone care to post scans of the art from the Wizard article? Just the art, not the text....
 
 
Mario
01:50 / 23.12.04
Never mind...found them myself:

Quitely Superman headshots

Batman & Robin

Don't know how long these will be up, so get 'em while their hot.
 
 
diz
01:53 / 23.12.04
hey! that Robin looks suspiciously like TIM DRAKE! otherwise known as "the only good Robin."

i was so worried we were going to be saddled with Dick.
 
 
FinderWolf
02:23 / 23.12.04
It is in fact Dick Grayson, with a costume more like the Tim Darke Robin. I saw in the articles about All-Stars that they said it'll be Bats and Dick Grayson as Robin, since that is what most people know as the classic iconic Robin (from the TV show and movies). They want to capture what the average person who doesn't read comics knows for this All_Star line, and those people who don't read comics know Dick Grayson (those who even know Robin's secret ID). Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.
 
 
John Octave
02:45 / 23.12.04
The Batman one...I see they're going with a kind of "bug-eyed" Robin. Like they took the big eyes of the Robin from the Teen Titans show and made them "literal." Hh. And the big metal gauntlet things Batman has...interesting. Robin's decked out in metal too; Jim Lee going back to his early 90s design aesthetic?

But Quitely Superman looks FANTASTIC. I think that ought to silence the folk who don't think he's the right man to draw Superman.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
03:16 / 23.12.04
since we're letting our inner fanboy out, let me put that Quitely's sketch is great - as usual. only there's nothing new to it [except for a softening of Supes' traits].

here's hoping for a costume redesign or update, at least slightly, sort of what Lee did to Batman.

that updated look in the proposed "Ultimate DC" from an old Wizard was very good. at least there was no yellow or shorts, and the colors were a bit darker. looks like something Singer could use in the movie - minus that weird red thing in the sides and the black in the logo.

 
 
Mario
14:00 / 23.12.04
I doubt they'll change Superman's costume that much. The entire point of the line seems to be to play of what the (non-comics-reading) public EXPECTS a Superman comic to be like. And EVERYONE knows what he looks like (between the movies, the TV shows, and the commercials with Jerry Seinfeld ).

This isn't a reboot or a revamp...it's a distillation.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
15:11 / 23.12.04
hm, well put.
 
  

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