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DC All-Stars

  
  

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Spaniel
12:12 / 21.12.04
DC takes the ultimate chance on All-Stars
Dan DiDio is a man of his word.

He said they wouldn't "Ultimize" the DCU, and as revealed in the new Wizard magazine, they aren't: they're giving it over to the All-Stars!

The article reveals that, as long rumored, DC will be launching a new line called DC All-Stars, featuring the top stars on the top characters, a simple forumla proven to lead to sales success.

First up, Jim Lee returns to Batman with ALL-STAR BATMAN & ROBIN. The writer is yet to be named.

Next, it's the long-rumored and devoutly wished for Grant Morrison/Frank Quitely ALL-STAR SUPERMAN.

While Marvel's hugely successful ULTIMATE line totally rebooted and reimagined the characters, the All-Star line won't be a wholesale reinterpretation. The stories will be set in the present day, but with "timeless, iconic, Pre-Crisis versions of the DCU's top characters." The civilian-friendly line will be limited to the biggest characters and the best creators.

While to a hardcore DC fan, "Pre-Crisis" is a codeword for reboot, DiDio has a more practical take on the matter.


"All-Stars is all about delivering on the expectations of the characters," says DiDio. "These will be versions of the characters that people expect to read if they havent read a Superman or Batman comic in a while. These are the things they'll want to see, and this is us delivering to the fans exactly what they want in a great format with great talent so they can truly enjoy the characters they know and love. Simple as that."

Didio goes on to name Alan Moore's celebrated 1986 tale "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" as the model for the All-Star line, with its fresh take on a character everyone knows. Astute readers may remember that in this story, Moore, who tosses off great concepts the way most others toss off earwax, envisioned the END of the Pre-Crisis Superman's career.

But no one can doubt that some kind of continuity shedding is necessary with Superman and Batman coming to the big screens. Moviegoers entertained by these films would find the current comics storylines impenetrable.

Lee touches on this in the article, mourning the loss of such things as the Fortress of Solitude and Batman's giant penny.

So have we come full circle? Strangled by the fan revolution, we're finally returning to a world where Batman has a youthful sidekick, and Lois doesn't know who Superman is. The Beat knows one thing -- if there's one living creator who can re-envision Superman without making it corny, it's Morrison. Bring it on, baby.

Sidebar: The All-Star line, which has been in the works since at least this summer, has been heavily rumored for months. The official story appears in the new WIZARD which, holiday mail be damned, just reached subscribers. However, if one poster at Millarworld is to be believed, DC is still trying to keep the story under "wraps": he claims he posted the story on the DCU boards only to have it yanked a few hours later.

Huzzah, huzzah, and thrice hoorah!

A long time coming, IMO.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:40 / 21.12.04
All well and good in theory, I suppose. But:

(a) Does anybody really think this will draw in a lot of new readers? Won't it only further fragment an already tiny market share?

and

(b) Why does the strategy of "putting your top talent on your flagship characters and letting 'em tell the stories they want to tell" require a separate line? Seems to me that this should be Standard Operating Procedure.

Implicit in the idea of an "All-Star" line is a tacit admission that most of DC's output is impenetrable guff produced by second-rate talents. To me, that looks like a sign that it's time to clean house and clear away the deadwood. But for the geniuses at Time-Warner, it's an acceptable status quo.

Why? Why is a two-tiered system preferable (from a business standpoint) to a single high standard of excellence?

(Of course, any objections to the two-tiered strategy are predicated on the notion that DC is being sincere in its hopes & projections that new readers will be drawn in by the project—they won't, of course, and DC are being disingenuous in the extreme in saying they will: DC is banking on what they've always banked on—that the comics-shop lifers who currently buy five Superman books each month will gladly buy six.)

(It's an inherently unsustainable business model, but the institutional thinking is so entrenched within both the business and the creative sides of the comics industry that I can't imagine anyone seriously breaking through that and proposing the obvious solution: a relatively small number of high-quality, accessible books, marketed as disposable entertainment, with primary distribution outside the direct market.)
 
 
FinderWolf
12:56 / 21.12.04
I love this, but I'm not happy about a pre-Crisis mentality. Why not do present DCU continuity and just have the stories not feature elements the writers find cumbersome or annoying or not reader-friendly (*coughGrantMorrisonNewX-Mencough*)

>> So have we come full circle? Strangled by the fan revolution, we're finally returning to a world where Batman has a youthful sidekick, and Lois doesn't know who Superman is.

I'm really annoyed by reverting to Lois Not Knowing. Come on....that sucks. Is it Dick Grayson as THIS version of Robin? Why no Fortress of Solitude and the Giant Penny in the Batcave?!?! Those are pre-Crisis, dammit!!!!
 
 
Spaniel
13:00 / 21.12.04
Broader questions aside.
I'm more than happy to have A-list talent on A-list books - A-list books unencumbered by a ziilion tons of continuity, no less.
 
 
Spaniel
13:03 / 21.12.04
Finder, I don't think you should get too hung up on the specifics until you've actually read the books in question.
 
 
diz
13:16 / 21.12.04
(It's an inherently unsustainable business model, but the institutional thinking is so entrenched within both the business and the creative sides of the comics industry that I can't imagine anyone seriously breaking through that and proposing the obvious solution: a relatively small number of high-quality, accessible books, marketed as disposable entertainment, with primary distribution outside the direct market.)

ah, but then a lot of hacks would be out of jobs. it's not really a comics industry, per se, it's more like a welfare state by geeks, for geeks.
 
 
A
13:29 / 21.12.04
I really don't care about the economic wisdom of this. I care about Morrison and Quitely on Superman!
 
 
Elegant Mess
13:35 / 21.12.04
"All-Stars is all about delivering on the expectations of the characters," says DiDio. "These will be versions of the characters that people expect to read if they havent read a Superman or Batman comic in a while. These are the things they'll want to see, and this is us delivering to the fans exactly what they want."

So basically DiDio's saying that the current creators of the DC's marquee names have failed miserably in a) keeping true to the spirit of the characters and b) delivering stories that people want to read? And that despite this failure, the editors are going to continue running the main DCU books into the ground with the teams they have now whilst simultaneously starting an new, unconnected line created by A-list talent?

I had assumed that "Crisis 2" or whatever they're going to call it would lead to the streamlining of the DCU and making it friendly to the elusive, semi-mythical "new reader". Instead, there's going to be whatever the DCU turns out to be post-Crisis 2 (best guess: whatever it is, it'll be confusing as fuck) and then this All-Star series of utterly unconnected books? Isn't that even less new reader-friendly than what they have now? How are new readers supposed to know which books are for them?

Still, what do I care? I haven't read a DCU book regularly for years... Morrison and Quitely on Superman! Yay!
 
 
chaos_15
13:44 / 21.12.04
you know, i could criticize DC for doing something so stupid as this but...

morrison+quitely+superman=gotta buy it

does anyone know when it's coming out?
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
14:04 / 21.12.04
late-late 2005, post stupid crossovers? we'll have VIMANARAMA and a full year of 7SOLDIERS to keep us fed until then.

if ALL-STARS' a good move? revamps and new number-ones always are, let alone WITH MORRISON AND QUITELY ON IT. ask Quesada and Jemas about the Ultimate line; or rather see the chart numbers for those Marvel titles, they're always in the top 10 positions.

the only bad move in this is doing Batman AND ROBIN instead of only BATMAN [as I'm certain the movie will be Robin-free]. and depending on the writer to be paired with Lee, I don't know.

in any case, getting these guys to re-imagine almost century-old franchises that couldn't be touched before - because of mega-corporate intermedia marketing plans - is just the best move possible.

the words "Morrison" and "Superman" in the same sentence should leave anyone relieved, not this worried. it won't sell a million copies [unless... they put cheaper versions of the flopies in newstands and pimp it like a motherfucker], but it's most likely to break some records.

I'd say it'll be up for somewhere between ASTONISHING X-MEN and DARK KNIGHT 2 numbers. in any case, if DC DO match the 1st SUPERMAN TP with the movie release they're up for a surprise.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:09 / 21.12.04
>> Finder, I don't think you should get too hung up on the specifics until you've actually read the books in question.

I agree, believe me, I can feel myself chastising my inner fanboy already. I just really wish it was in 'current' continuity, I'm annoyed with the idea that superhero couples can't have happy marriages (saving the Flashes and Peter & Mary Jane). I know Morrison could write a great Lois & Clark team.

But I know DC is thinking in terms of 'let's make it tie into the movie worlds, since these new Supes & Bats movies are coming out and we haven't had major DC superhero movies in 15 years', and I can see where they're coming from.

The bottom line is it's Morrison & Quitely on Superman.

MORRISON & QUITELY ON SUPERMAN, FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

I'm overjoyed about that. I'll get over he and Lois not being married in it, I'm sure I will. And I can't see Morrison on Superman being anything but brilliant, regardless of continuity.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:12 / 21.12.04
>> the only bad move in this is doing Batman AND ROBIN instead of only BATMAN [as I'm certain the movie will be Robin-free].

Yeah, I wondered about the wisdom of this too...

I wonder what Earth they'll take place on? Earth All-Star? Will they be simultaneous with regular DCU Superman happening in the 'regular DCU' books? Or will it be like Marvel's ill-fated Heroes Reborn where the characters actually leave the DCU proper and go to an Ultimate Reboot Universe?

And part of me is like "aaw, DC, you didn't have to cave in and do the Ultimate thing and copy Marvel." But like I said, I'll get over it.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:15 / 21.12.04
I wonder what Earth they'll take place on? Earth All-Star? Will they be simultaneous with regular DCU Superman happening in the 'regular DCU' books?

Someone.

Is.

MISSING.

THE.

POINT.
 
 
Benny the Ball
15:31 / 21.12.04
I think that the key here is that they are talking about letting writers write the stories that they want to write, so, I'd imagine, they can dance between referring current continuity or going retro or ignoring it. Much like the Can't Believe It's Not Justice League thing. I think it's a great idea, DC is too obsessed by continuity. I like the idea of a writer coming up and saying 'I want to write x story' and rather than being told 'can't do it because y is planning to do z with x' they can be told 'yeah, sure, it'll be an All-Star story, but it'll be told'. This also moves away the idea that current crop of writers are 2nd rate, in that it is a way of DC freeing up ideas for the big gun names without asking them to worry about the last 25 years (or is it nearly 30 now? When was Crisis?) of back story. Yes it can be done a la New X-Men, but I want contained stories that offer great jump-on points, and DCU's big icon characters are ideal for this.

I just hope Miss Tesmachuer is in All Star Superman.
 
 
Bed Head
15:34 / 21.12.04
it's more like a welfare state by geeks, for geeks.

dude! when you put it like that it sounds quite nice. I’d support a welfare state for geeks. It’s only really the mountains of stodgy horseshit they pump out every year that I could possibly object to.

So, in summary. Good, healthy comics to go in normal shops. And everything else can carry on as always/collapse whenever it feels like it. Probably as this last generation of comic geeks are hit by a wave of coronaries, over the next decade.

But the shop thing, that’s starting to happen, right? With tpbs and bookshops, and serials like *this*, being commissioned for just that market. I only wish the groovy papery monthlies I like so much weren’t being left for the geek ghetto.

Still. A Superman comic that doesn’t suck so much that normal people are embarrassed to be seen with it. If that's the brief, it'll be a landmark, once-in-a-century type achievement.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:36 / 21.12.04
MISS TESSMACHEEEEEEERRRR!!!!
 
 
Axolotl
15:46 / 21.12.04
Why the obsession with acheiving mass-market success? I mean sure it would be nice if going into a comic store didn't give you a slightly dirty feeling and I'm all for dumping the mountains of crap that gets churned out nowadays in exchange for quality comics by decent creative teams, but I don't necessarily see that mass market success will give us those comics.
Would in fact escaping from the geek ghetto just result in a different style of dumb comics?
But I have to say Quitely and Morrison on Superman=WOOT!
 
 
diz
16:12 / 21.12.04
Why the obsession with acheiving mass-market success?

because without it, American superhero comics probably have about a decade or so to live, maybe less.
 
 
Bed Head
16:22 / 21.12.04
Would in fact escaping from the geek ghetto just result in a different style of dumb comics?

Well, yes, maybe. But not necessarily a dying *little* marketplace that can’t ever manage to grow or go anywhere. Comic fans somehow manage to make a Crisis! On! Infinite! Earths! seem a really, really small, parochial affair. Surely that's *warning bells*?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:28 / 21.12.04
Why does the strategy of "putting your top talent on your flagship characters and letting 'em tell the stories they want to tell" require a separate line? Seems to me that this should be Standard Operating Procedure.

I agree with this, but I guess they have to keep the continuity stuff going and those comics sell, so there's no good reason to drop them if they aren't losing money. All-Stars seems to be more about making people who wouldn't normally read Superman and Batman etc buying those comics.

I really strongly disagree with people who are concerned about this being a return to "Pre-Crisis" DC. Fuck that. Tight continuity has always been the enemy of the DC Universe, it was never designed to be like Marvel and thrives when creators are allowed to do what they want and make stories about the characters that are changeable. Superman and Batman are great because they are modular characters. You can plug them into a wide range of stories, so why the hell not?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:31 / 21.12.04
I don't get why anyone would prefer the Lois Lane that knows that Clark Kent = Superman. Tension is always better! Superman being in a love triangle with himself is one of the cool things about the character!
 
 
Axolotl
17:33 / 21.12.04
I agree the industry needs to sort itself out, but I feel that the best way to do that is get writers and artists producing quality (accessible) work and work from there, rather than setting out to do comics that will appeal to the mainstream, you don't want to get the cart before the horse. Probably the best way to do this is with cross-promotion with other media, something that the big two have been fairly woeful at doing. They tend to either ignore the possibilities or churn out some terrible tie-in comics.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:41 / 21.12.04
I don't think any of this is going to bring in any new readers whatsoever, but fuck that! In 2004 I bought my first new monthlies (We3, JLA Classified) in years and 2005 looks like being rocked at regular intervals by some absolutely tremendous titles. I am more excited about comics now than I have been since 1999.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:43 / 21.12.04
I don't think any of this is going to bring in any new readers whatsoever, but fuck that!

My point exactly.

Enjoy your comics industry while it lasts, boys.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:45 / 21.12.04
About Lois & Clark, I don't like that they're undoing what was a great step forward in the comics, having her find out and having them get married. Otherwise, it's the usual status quo 'she'll never find out, they'll never get together' stuff. I totally see what you mean about tension being better, but it's kind of like the endless 70s and 80s shows where the status quo never changed in any real way. I like it when the status quo changes in a real way in my stories.

On a related topic, they just gave Spidey organic webshooters in the regular Marvel U. to make it more like the movies. After the first X-Men movie Frank & Grant dressed the X-Men in more leather-y type outfits (I know Grant's jackets weren't exactly like the movies, but they weren't Super Hero Costumes). Now DC is ramping up comics to be in line with the movies, in some sense. Do we feel this is worthwhile? Does it actually work (i.e. translate to an increase in sales from walk-ins who never read comics but saw a movie they liked)?

For example, have Spider-Man comics sales gone up over the past few years as a result of the exposure from the movies, I wonder? Can we truly say that if there was a sales increase, that it was helped along by the movies?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:51 / 21.12.04
I don't see how getting rid of every bit of tension is good for the comics except for a in short-term way. Superhero comics work best when they exist in a permanent second act. All they did with Superman and Spider-Man was move from one interesting status quo to a boring tension-free status quo that has done nothing but hemmorhage the readership of characters who should be selling better. Marrying off those two characters killed one of most relatable aspects of the characters and they never bothered to replace the sexual tension. You need that bit of sex there or you castrate the entire enterprise.
 
 
diz
17:55 / 21.12.04
I agree with this, but I guess they have to keep the continuity stuff going and those comics sell, so there's no good reason to drop them if they aren't losing money. All-Stars seems to be more about making people who wouldn't normally read Superman and Batman etc buying those comics.

i wonder how they plan to accomplish the all-important step of getting these books in front of potential readers. i don't see how non-comics-readers who don't happen to be stopping in the Android's Dungeon asking for directions to the Orange Julius stand are even going to know this is happening. it's also worth noting that the names "Grant Morrison" and "Jim Lee" mean nothing outside the comics shop.

I don't get why anyone would prefer the Lois Lane that knows that Clark Kent = Superman. Tension is always better! Superman being in a love triangle with himself is one of the cool things about the character!

the only aspect of the Clark/Lois/Supes triangle that i don't like is the whole "i wish she loved me for the real me - Clark Kent" aspect of it. um, hello, Clark? that guy out there in the blue pajamas saving people and fighting aliens? that's you. Clark is also you, but you "really" are Superman, too. it's just retarded and it annoys me.

I agree the industry needs to sort itself out, but I feel that the best way to do that is get writers and artists producing quality (accessible) work and work from there, rather than setting out to do comics that will appeal to the mainstream, you don't want to get the cart before the horse.

i think that's exactly what they're doing here.
 
 
Axolotl
18:17 / 21.12.04
i wonder how they plan to accomplish the all-important step of getting these books in front of potential readers
That I think is a real problem, and something I think Marvel & DC ought to be doing more of. Give away free comics at movie theatres complete with a flier for the local comic store. Give local comic stores promotional posters and so on linked with the film.
I asked the manager in my local comic shop whether Spiderman 2 led to any increase in custom and if Marvel tried to promote their comics and he just laughed. That says it all really.
Dizfactor - I agree, DC seem to have got some real talent working on this, and hopefully it will produce a quality product that will turn some people on to comics. Not because the product is mainstream friendly, but because it is a quality piece of work (I hope).
 
 
FinderWolf
18:33 / 21.12.04
Interesting that over on newsarama, DC is announcing that Greg Rucka will continue his run with Karl Kerschel ("Majestic") as artist (his art looks pretty good for Supes) and Mark Veredhein (sorry spelling mangled, he wrote comics years ago and has been a major writer and producer on Smallville in recent years) and Ed "Supergirl & Birds of Prey" Benes doing the regular Superman book after Azz & Lee's story ends.

So I guess we will have the "Ultimate/All-Star" line and then the regular DCU line out there, just like Marvel (the regular universe and the Ult. universe). I know this was mostly obvious, but DiDio never really specified this.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
19:02 / 21.12.04
I think to get comics in front of a wider audience they need to lie and call them "books".

The monthly comics will gradually decline, and all that will happen is a new Spider-Man/Superman book will be released every few months or so by different creators all starting from some indistinct starting point where what everybody knows is intact and all following their own story through to it's logical conclusion.

Which is kind of what happens anyway, but shorter. And all at the same time. And less confusing.

Oh fuck it, I wish comics would die so they could become something better. And so we could all stop having this endless conversation.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:14 / 21.12.04
the only aspect of the Clark/Lois/Supes triangle that i don't like is the whole "i wish she loved me for the real me - Clark Kent" aspect of it. um, hello, Clark? that guy out there in the blue pajamas saving people and fighting aliens? that's you. Clark is also you, but you "really" are Superman, too. it's just retarded and it annoys me.

Yeah, of course, but that's the whole thing that makes Superman interesting and kinda weird - he's a bit schizo that way, and insists on pretending that he's a human to the point where he creates this other guy that he is half of the time.

Seriously, half the battle for the comics industry is getting the right comics in the appropriate retailers. They should focus on pushing these All Stars comics in stores like Walmart and Target, find some way to get them into the hands of the MILLIONS of children who are in those stores every day of the year.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:15 / 21.12.04
I mean, really. Where did you start reading comics? For me, it was the local drug store. When millions of people read comics, they were on newstands and in convenience stores.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:18 / 21.12.04
In terms of selling to kids (the appropriate main demo for comic books about Superman and Batman), the better idea is to print them and sell them as cheaply as possible and putting them in stores where kids will be. Not exactly a difficult concept. There's no need to ape manga style either - not every little kid is going to respond to that, and some will appreciate a difference in style.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:19 / 21.12.04
After all, little kids don't have the cash flow to throw down three bucks for a comic book. Sell them for a dollar, print them on crappy paper. It worked for all of us as children.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:09 / 21.12.04
I just read the full text of the Wizard article on another site and I realize I misunderstood about the Fortress of Solitude and the Giant Penny in the Batcave -- the All-Stars books will have these pre-Crisis things. I misread his comments to think that they'd be pre-Crisis but wouldn't have them. My bad.

And ya gotta like the reference to the old DC All-Stars books. That's kinda fun.
 
  

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