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Are you ready for your annual review?

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12:09 / 17.12.04

'Oh, the slings and arrows of being called a simple-minded sloganeering 'Western' feminist by someone who's stated that he's quite comfortable in his own misogyny... '

so 'being called a simple minded etc' um owns(?) 'the slings and arrows' ...? um...no, no sense there at all, i see why you let that sentence trail off...

please don't try to call me a misogynist again, unless you can demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that i hate women: such a thing clearly isn't possible given the means of communication we use in our interactions, so perhaps it's best for the sake of clarity, that high level of debate you so constantly interrupt others for the sake of, not to use such emotive and unsubstantiable terms. 'misogynist' doesn't mean the same as 'someone who often disagrees with your girlfriend'. people and the world they live on are more complex than such cheap rhetoric allows. i don't think feminism is a bad thing, i just think allowing one's chosen social philosphy to afford oneself absolute moral judgement over the legitimate rights of other humans is.

it's the friday before christmas, what else was gonna happen today?

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:14 / 17.12.04

Honestly, I'd probably shelve the hand-in-marriage oddness and instead perhaps focus on the "how-many-times-have-you-actually-met-this-person" oddness, but then I'm a bluff old traditionalist.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:39 / 17.12.04

"course not. i'm quite cosy with my feelings towards women/ my feelings towards women (cos, y'know, they definitely break down into an easy to define, one size fits all gang) are always quite cosy. hence, accusations of misogyny from hysterical suffragists worry me not a bit and tickle me quite a lot."

Quoted without comment.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:40 / 17.12.04

Really, I could care less about Benny and his little lady: my first post was mostly a comment about the inevitability of what was about to follow. You could argue that I was being needlessly cruel and prickish at that point, and you might be right, but that doesn’t seem to be the argument we’re having. My second was a comment on the consistency of Nickism - note that if anyone were to argue that asking a woman’s father for her hand in marriage is NOT a patriarchal tradition, that would again be a quite different discussion – what Nick is saying is that yes, this is a patriarchal tradition, but it’s not necessarily a bad thing. Or rather, as a true conservative, he believes that anything bad about it is preferable to the upset that would be caused by rocking the boat… One aspect of Nick-ism is the believe that there is any difference between politics and a kind of idealised ‘everyday’ life in which ordinary folk interact with their family and friends without politics ever becoming an issue unless some crazy rabid radical is rude enough to bring it up – the old Nickist “don’t bring theory to the dinner table, that’s not its place” line.

12:48 / 17.12.04

You could argue that I was being needlessly cruel and prickish at that point, and you might be right, but that doesn’t seem to be the argument we’re having.

Okay, let's make it the argument then. You concede that it's at least arguable, and perhaps strongly so, that you have been a cruel prick. Are you going to apologise?

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:50 / 17.12.04

Well, first we have to work out *whether* he was being prickish. An argument is not a conclusion. Understanding that simple proposition would probably about halve the traffic on Barbelith...

13:14 / 17.12.04

i'm only going on memory here, not the scurrying to check type, but i think the '...' where flyboy quotes me above should actually read 'my feelings towards women are quite cosy'. so by 'quoted without comment' he really means 'selectively misquoted without comment'.

but honestly, i've got to do *some* work today, and i'll only put myself in a bad mood if this carries on. merry christmas one and all, see you in a couple of weeks.

13:42 / 17.12.04

I was being needlessly cruel and prickish at that point

Quoted incompletly without comment.

And in regards to the asking for her hand thing: you're making an assumption that he's putting the decision in the father's hand. It's quite possible that he could say no and they would do it anyway. Traditionaly it was, or course, different but now it's only away to show respect to the family that you are seking to join. Everyone, father included, knows that his refusal would be in no way bindng unless she decided for it to be so.

Best of luck to you. A wonderful story, I think.

14:03 / 17.12.04

Call me Winnie the Pooh but I just think it's lovely Benny the ball has found someone he loves enough to want to marry in the first place.

Honestly. You're all such a bunch of Eeyores. It's nearly Christmas! Be happy! Stop arguing about politics and semantics. (Someone will probably tell me it's not semantics and that that's the wrong word now, but I don't care!)

Think tinsel, glitter, happy, tree, pudding, Jesus was born in September, hah! Christmas is about excess, warmth and love, kisses, roast-potatoes, crackers, cuddles, love, love and more love.

14:09 / 17.12.04

Y'all have no idea how tempting it is to simply say that Dad loved the letter he got from Benny and we're really looking forward to our new life together as a couple, but really, I don't want to come out about the whole thing until Benny's really ready to make that move first.

So, Benny, when are you and the object of your affections shacking up? And more importantly, where?

14:09 / 17.12.04

Being quite drunk I had a little survey around the office on this and nobody would be offended although most people did think it was an outdated tradition but it's just one of those "wedding things".

I think we could probably do without it and I'm guessing we soon will.

I don't think anyone is actually asking for permission are they? As someone said in the office you probably wouldn't ask if you knew the answer was going to be no.

It's just something to keep the older folks happy.

Merry Christmas!

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

14:09 / 17.12.04

Christmas is about marriage? Huh?

14:11 / 17.12.04

merry christmas one and all, see you in a couple of weeks.

"see you in a couple of weeks", "I'm leaving this thread now", what the hell's got into him?

Who took our (Gum)bitch away........
Who stole our (Gum)bitch..........
Who stole the Gum(bitch) Gum(bitch) suit.........

*candles and 25p lighters in the air, someone wipes tear away from one eye in the backrow, Barbelith members stood around confused, little Elves looking sad, Santa stuffing his fat face..........*

14:14 / 17.12.04

I should add that in my case, I also formally asked for my then-fiancee's hand in marriage. Of course, it was her seven-year-old son I was asking, but still.

He was pleased.

14:25 / 17.12.04

I too just had this conversation in the office. One guy is about to get married and said he did ask his fiance's dad - and he thought it was unecessary but appreciated being asked in the traditional way.

He went on to say, that when *he* asked his father-in-law to be for his daughter's hand, the reply was:
"Over my dead body" - on account of their youth. Bit harsh.

14:27 / 17.12.04

Benny, I'm not sure what you want from us, if anything. Your post reads like a cathartic exercise, and that's all good.

But, 'cause you made it public you're gonna get my thoughts.
I think this thread has been sidetracked, surely the most important issue here is whether this is the right time to propose.
Long distance relationships and marriage are (self evidently) rather different things. I mean, shouldn't you try living with each other first? I appreciate that this may be difficult/impractical but surely not more difficult/impractical than marrying the wrong person?

I know this isn't what you want to hear, and I'm well aware that you know your own situation much better than I, but, well, it's worth saying, is all.

16:16 / 17.12.04

I'm with lekvar. I would ask Anna, re. What's marriage about if not the partnership of two people? - do you really believe that? I think that's one of the big pitfalls of marriage these days, that married or marrying people see themselves as a unit of two only, families be damned. Not only do you have the potential problem of one or the other families rejecting or disapproving of the marriage, and all the stress and conflict that that entails, but you're also isolating yourselves right off the bat. Call me unromantic, but I think the idea of detaching from your families for the sake of True Luuuve is folly.

While I agree that asking for the father's hand is outdated and patriarchal, I see nothing wrong with asking the parents of the bride for their blessing. After all, most fiances-to-be have at least discussed the possibility of being engaged before the official proposal (right Benny? I hope), and so asking the parents before the official proposal doesn't really mean that it's any less the bride's decision.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:21 / 17.12.04

All this aside, is anyone else a touch envious of the two-scripts-selling bit?

16:23 / 17.12.04

The "hand, please, Alpha Male" thing is undoubtedly an anachronism and I'd be offended by it if I were a woman, I think. But then, the whole "marriage" thing is built on that patriarchal tradition, as has been argued convincingly on many other threads.

When my sisters married, it was still the norm for the father of the bride to pay forn the wedding. That tradition seems now to be dying off as I expect the "hand" thing will too, in the near future.

As for the suggestion of Ganesh asking my Dad for a handjob, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Dirty fucker.

18:29 / 17.12.04

Ahhh, finished work. Thank the lord as my back couldn't take another day!

Okay, firstly, wow a thread that went onto a second page, at last!

Now, onto points raised, excuse me if I miss anything, I've just read everything through once, but I'm very tired.

I have discussed it with the lady in question, I talked about it with her first and foremost, as she is the most important person to me in this process. I felt, through talking with her, that her and her father have a strong bond (her parents seperated when she was young, so she was very much the lady of his house when she stayed with him) and when meeting him I felt that he had traditional ideas and values to a degree, so therefore thought that it would be best to mention that my intentions were to ask his daughter to marry me (not ask him to marry her, if you get me). It is a formality, but a formality done now is better than a slight forever remembered. It's a Roman tradition anyway, and I studied Ancient History! I felt that in meeting the parents and their new families (both mum and dad have remarried) I got on well with her mum, but couldn't be certain with dad, so thought that a letter would be better than an informal chat.

As for living together, when I have visited her or she me, it has been for large chunks of time, and we both simply love being around each other, don't cramp each other, don't mind silence, and also seem pretty tuned in to when the other wants to be left alone - we have also talked about the possibilities of habbits upsetting the other, but most things come back to the simple fact that we are very much in love, and, maybe more importantly, like each other very much. If she does want to marry me, then it wouldn't be a rushed thing - she is coming to live with me for a while next year, and then we are going travelling together, so I think that this will be the test of what happens next. But I know, and she tells me she knows, that we both want to be with each other.

Thank you all, for your replies, concerns and points raised, it was just a cathartic outburst.

Oh, and thanks to Madame for spotting the slipped in script reference, It was a nice end to a good year!

18:34 / 17.12.04

All this aside, is anyone else a touch envious of the two-scripts-selling bit?

i can think of a couple of blog writers who may well be....

Forgot to say congrats on selling scripts too Benny! only a true movie geek would be that good on the movie game...

I'm off for Christmas too- y'all try not to wreck the house (should that be haus) while i'm away....

MERRY CHRISTMAS.....

18:53 / 17.12.04

Wow it's gone all WWE in here, Ministry vs the Corporate Ministry. DX vs New DX.

Who will surive

WHO!?

19:07 / 17.12.04

"it's just a shame that so many people would rather follow tradition than think about the social and personal ramifications of their actions. "

Can't say I much care for the notion that it is impossible to think about the ramifications of my actions, and to choose to follow tradition anyway. It's not an either/or sort of choice. I understand the point you're trying to make about the origins of this tradition, but I don't feel threatened by those origins. My father certainly has some delusions about ownership of his daughters, and all of us have made it blisteringly clear to him that they are just that, delusions.

As far as marriage itself goes, I for one am going to be married by my grandfather in a traditional muslim ceremony because I love my grandfather, and if you mean to suggest that I am somehow striking a blow against the progress of women by so doing, I would suggest that you back up your argument with some specifics. Who am I harming, and in what way?

Tryphena Absent

20:59 / 17.12.04

While I agree that asking for the father's hand is outdated and patriarchal, I see nothing wrong with asking the parents of the bride for their blessing

Did anyone read my posts? I assumed that I was getting it across (clearly I wasn't obvious enough) that my problem wasn't that Benny wanted to let her dad know that he wanted to marry her but that Benny didn't make it clear that he talked about it with his girlfriend first. You know when I said It's about prioritising people's importance, What's marriage about if not the partnership of two people?, I think it's pretty shameful to treat someone as if they're owned I actually meant those things literally not ideologically, fantastically or with a lashing of strawberry sauce on top but as they actually read.

I don't mind if people tell their parents that they intend to get married, I don't care if you specifically write a letter to someone's dad- you might not know their mum- I do care if you ask for permission before proposing. Benny's made it clear now that he didn't write before. Can people actually read what I write before elaborating my sentences. Benny, I hope it works out for you!

22:09 / 17.12.04

Anna, my question to you was specifically whether you really believe that marriage is a partnership of two, because I'm curious whether you do. And can you read what Benny actually wrote before elaboring his sentences? Because it seems to me he told us that he wrote a letter to her dad asking his permission (well, not his permission, just saying that I would be happier with his blessing). See? - not his permission.

It appears to me that the difference between your post about 'treating someone as if they're owned' and my strawberry sauce post about getting the parents' blessing is that you (wrongly) assumed Benny hadn't discussed a proposal with his girlfriend before, for whatever reason, while I (correctly) assumed he had, because as I said that's usually what couples do.

Tryphena Absent

22:42 / 17.12.04

Actually Benny said this I had an idea of asking her to marry me on the stroke of midnight New Year's eve, but wanted to do things properly, and so wrote a letter to her dad asking his permission (well, not his permission, just saying that I would be happier with his blessing) so have put that plan on hold. That pretty much leaves it completely open. A lot of people discuss proposals before they marry but not to the extent that they agree and then one of them proposes after a blessing is given. That just struck me as a little unusual so my question was this:Benny, not meaning to rot this thread or anything, but can you tell me why you would ask someone's dad if you could marry them? After that my posts were directed to other members of the board who appeared to be addressing the idea that it's acceptable to ask the father before the potential fiancee. Namely Nick who I thought was making the tradition more acceptable then it should be (not trying to pick on you Nick). At which point it was assumed, not by Nick but a few other people that I was talking about avoiding family altogether, probably because they got their wires crossed about who I was addressing. The point being that I never actually said that anyone should disassociate themselves from their families or that asking for a blessing was necessarily wrong but I was saying that the basic idea that a father's permission is needed in the traditional sense is a nasty one. I was asking for clarity rather than assuming anything about Benny.

As for marriage it is primarily about the two people getting married, weddings wouldn't exist in their present form without those two people confirming their partnership but yeah it's a community event and one that I quite like.

As for true love, well I'm not sure I believe in it. I certainly don't think stormy passion is a good idea- well not when its related to living with someone for the rest of your life. I think marriage needs to be more reasonable than that and the reason needs to extend outside of the partnership to the people who come with it. And I don't think that the lack of existence of true love is a bad thing, love is just love, it grows on you and it can always be a happy thing if you can hang on to the reason, even if it fails.

22:51 / 17.12.04

"Did anyone read my posts?"

I read your post, I quoted the part that I didn't agree with, and I asked for clarification about what you meant. I don't disagree with the statement that there's something odd about asking for permission to marry somebody, so I didn't quote that part and didn't argue with it.

Not looking for a fight, just want to know what you mean.

22:54 / 17.12.04

The "hand, please, Alpha Male" thing is undoubtedly an anachronism and I'd be offended by it if I were a woman, I think.

I am a woman and I'd be charmed if my fiancee asked my dad for my hand in marriage.

But like Anna, I was under the impression that Benny had asked the father first. I was concerned about this, not for socio-political reasons but for reasons of etiquette. What if the woman had decided she wasn't ready to settle down? That would have been an awkward situation for everyone involved. I'm happy to hear this wasn't the case.

Congratulations and good luck with the engagement, Benny! I want to hear more about your scripts...

23:13 / 17.12.04

Congratulations on your upcoming nuptials, Benny. I hope everything works out as well as can be expected. My distaste for marriage almost certainly derives from my unhappy childhood and in no sense should you consider marriage a hateful institution if you don't want to give it any serious thought.

As to the rest of this "cruel prick" business: Fuck you, you fucking fucks.

Tryphena Absent

23:20 / 17.12.04

I didn't know there was a u in fuck.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:43 / 18.12.04

fridgemagnet A blow job, you should really put something in writing.
Ganesh And flowers afterwards.

I'm in London this New Years.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:26 / 18.12.04

ibis has a nice wax finish I'm with lekvar. I would ask Anna, re. What's marriage about if not the partnership of two people? - do you really believe that? I think that's one of the big pitfalls of marriage these days, that married or marrying people see themselves as a unit of two only, families be damned.

I'm not presuming to speak for Anna but I would certainly say, if asked the question myself, of course it is! Marriage is about the union of two people. Raising a family is what you're talking about and a completely different thing as people don't need to be recognised as partners by law in order to fuck like bunnies and there are plenty of people out there who want a legally recognised pair-bonding signifier who have no intention and/or capability of bearing children.

The question is: Benny, if your prospective fiances Dad had said "fuck off!" would you have given up, or continued without his blessing?

Regrettable Juvenilia

00:57 / 19.12.04

Can't be arsed with any more head-slapping, so I'll just say: yes, I snipped out less of gambit's post that I quoted than I intended to... (Context here for anyone who cares.) No conspiracy though, it doesn't affect my statement that if someone who is happy to throw around terms like "hysterical suffragist" wants to complain about loony feminist extremism, I will not consider it a great insult to be included, ie it will not cause me distress, ie it will not be as slings and arrows or any other form of physical attack to me. Simple really, see?

17:07 / 20.12.04

As long as she said yes, I would continue. My wording in the letter was something more along the lines of, my intention is to ask your daughter to marry me, and if we were to marry I would be honoured if it was with your blessing.

It is a curteosy (I can't spell at the moment, but I'm sure you can all work out what that is supposed to say!), ultimatley though, we are the people that have to be happiest with the idea.

17:11 / 20.12.04

I'm in London this New Years.

Heheheheh. I wondered when you'd find that one.

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