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Stuck in a paradigm

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
17:57 / 25.11.05
You guys are right, I meant it more on a persona level.

Right save one point, Im not sure I have a 'home-base comfortable self'.
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:32 / 26.11.05
This notion of a comfortable self, bears the notion of a soul almost, a true self of somekind. A true self as social identity i wont wear i am afraid, social identity is at best transitory lasting the the tiny glimmer of a life time,(if that) which within the whole of things, universes coming and going, is just self focus.(and a notion of self perpetuation)

your cemented to your world view because of this very notion, alot of people consider there soul, to some how be the collected memories of a lifetime(s), as if these things are of central focus, the spark of pure undifferentiated consciousness called the soul(my own personal view point) has nothing to do with social function or language structures, its beyond those boundaries, breaking all forms into formlessness.(debateable)

Everything we do here within the scheme of socialisation has meaning upon that level of interaction. Within nature your born, you live, you die. Its at the point of discovering within the larger context that its all absolutely meaningless that many people turn to spirituality,(i am definately refering to me at this point) trying to find the meaning of the meaninglessness, or at least make life more bearable.(give me answers i desperately need a sense of self(mock hysteria))

Perhaps its actually a little more couragous to accept your going to die, and what happens in between means sweet f.a in the natural universe.(i am so hard.)

The happy little garden gets torched eventually as the sun explodes. Must remember to recycle. (oh biting)

People have been trying to save lives and mend people in general for at least the last 5,000 years, and people just keep getting it wrong and keep dying, and become broken, like thats not ment to happen.(keep trying and try harder) To retain a social identity or any kind of identity is part of the role of trying to maintain a sense of life without death, in fear of death itself.(like i am not scared)

Have children, grow plants, create something, celebrate life, in order for it to be stripped from you at the point of death, what a vicious little circle jerk, and you and i are in the middle.(dont visualise it)

Die to yourself in order to be born again, change your paradigm, change your lifetime, change your universe, or better yet eat a satisfying bar of chocolate and relax on the sofa listening to a happy tune. (or a sad one if that makes you happy)(i prefer jazz)
 
 
wordsofwisdom
01:16 / 26.11.05
Ganesh, in response to your original post, I think whatever you do in life will have a part in shaping your personality, I think it's totally normal & uncontrolable useless you're self aware that it's happening to you (which you are or I would'nt be here typing this reply!). Becoming engrossed in you career is a good thing to do in my veiw, but ultimatley you will become a person with an altered outlook on life.
 
 
illmatic
13:20 / 26.11.05
Middle: This notion of a comfortable self, bears the notion of a soul almost, a true self of somekind. A true self as social identity i wont wear i am afraid

Bollocks. Knowing you as I do, I would say the "kicking up a fuss whenever I encounter the notion of a self" is in fact, the "comfortable self" that you wear, and re-wear continuously, and the one you're happiest with. I'd add I don't think it's particularly challenging for you, or likely to address any of your deeper problems/issues/concerns.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:10 / 26.11.05
I had been thinking about this earlier, what id written, and decided their was perhaps another view point, that the social roles we adopt could be instrumental in breaking down the arrogance of ego by for example being inservice to others, as ganesh is as a doctor, but also the social status accorded by others may actually be capable of creating the opposite effect.

i think your probably spot on i enjoy my watery self the most, because i never actually ever have to be anything except my not quite formed collection of personas. I am prepared to do things but not to be something, i will do the job if i am offered it, but i wont be the job, theres no social role i am prepared to be but plenty i am prepared to do or play with. None of them ever last forever like most relationships they end in one way or another. Being involved to the point of no perspective is a sure remedy for suffering. Its not like you have to be alive, you are alive theres no being alive involved.why be anything? when its still possible to live life without being, why become attached to any form of self or notion of identity or any form of relationship for that matter? I can still do all of those things without being any of them. I partake of the roles and life as i find them and then life changes, trying to be a certain thing means i have to maintain an attachment to those things, sometimes that makes it impossible to do anything, too busy being what you are.

Theres no freedom clinging to any identity social or otherwise, just as theres no freedom clinging to ritual or tradition, their is a sense of comfort in stable social forms whatever their flavour. No thing is truely reliable and no thing is truely unreliable. At some point everything has to be given up/sacraficed even if that only occurs at death, attaching to anything muddys the waters of what eventually you let go of or will be ripped from you should you resist.
 
 
Unconditional Love
04:40 / 27.11.05
Another point of approach would be a comparison between theocratic models of exsistence and atheist secular models, religous models need essences to function, essential beliefs tenets of faith, personalities made up or based around those precepts also require a sense of essence to function within that structure, the greater belief structure reflected at the level of individual identity.

Atheist secular theories, change and mutate as new research is undertaken, the results arent fixed into a permanent state, nor is an individual identity when based on a theory of self, more research into self reveals other aspects of identity other areas to explore and experiment with, each area explored, including religous areas becomes a new theory to the individual exploring it, would that for example invalidate a religous experience because it was seen as theory rather than fact? i dont think so.

So with identity, if it is held very lightly as a point of exploration something to be mused over and played with, a theory of self, rather than the facts about self. Does self have to be laden with heavy meaning and being? or can it be carefree, not quite solid, dancing through life with a greater faith than religion, that the universe does what it does, come what may. no matter who i am being, what i am doing, the world keeps turning, alive or dead the dance of life and death goes on, wether i be peace activist or war monger, life and death keep cycling each other.

Identity is a side effect of communication, social systems and education, its import is highlighted because without a majority of individuals containing these conceptualisations, recording them etc. These networks are prone to collapse without the energy invested by the individuals who self identify with these structures.

Abstract conceptions like corporations only esist as ideas without individuals to invest in them, Abstarct notions like the self and self identitie(s) function along similar premises, if i practice really hard at kung fu, everyday i may well become quite good at it over a period of time, does that make me a martial artist? perhaps. Now what if i drop my network of associations to kung fu entirely, going to class, literature, dvds etc. At what point do i stop becoming the martial artist as self identity? when i drop everything is there a sudden change in my state of exsistence? or was i really ever a martial artist at all, isnt that a label to help define a certain group of individuals who practice a certain hobby. need i self identify as a martial artist to do martial arts? I dont need to be a thing to do a thing, i can function to all appearences as the role if i practice that role, to the point if where the practice is good enough, those that look on may well think i am being that role.

Reality, personality, truth and lies are not a rigid affair defined by investment in abstract notions of what reality or self is. To employ metaphor it is like water constantly changing shape, appearing solid as ice, flowing like a stream as disparate as vapour, raining down from above and flowing up from underneath, and washing notions of self away in tidal waves, or gently shaping the stones as they have become stuck in the river bed.
 
 
Unconditional Love
06:47 / 27.11.05
An elemental approach as process.

Earth > The solid fixed word or identity

Water >applying water the context and connotations, shifting associations and meanings of the word or identity. The earth mixes with the water.

Fire> applying heat to the water causes the notion of identity word language to vibrate. earth and water bubble some elements being consumed in the fire. Identity loss, experience beyond words. The fires of ectasy.leading to vapour.

Air > Self and identity have become a disparate gaseous cloud, fragmented, disassociated, component parts ceasing to function, carried this way and that by prevalent winds. A perception becomes apparent to consciousness.

Space > The perception is the space in which the identity self and symbol structures exsisted, the emptiness which is filled by form in a variety of transitional states.

Mind > Undifferentiated consciousness no form no emptiness yet residing in both, a formless fullness with no quality yet containing all qualities.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:49 / 27.11.05
'home-base comfortable self'.

I take issue with the idea that the self/main paradigm/whatever is necessarily a nice, safe, comfortable place to be. It often isn't. Holding certain beliefs can bring you into conflict with others, sometimes conflict with the majority of people you will encounter--rejection of the death penalty springs to mind. And then there's the fact that beliefs can conflict with one's desires, flaws, frailties or obsessions, or with other beliefs. My overall paradigm (starting to get very sick of that word) is not a cosy, unchallenged set of assumptions picked for no better reason than they go with my stuff and don't make too much trouble.

(I should probably fess up at this point and admit that I'm unconvinced by the whole concept of the 'paradigm shift'. I don't believe that the kind of sudden radical change in beliefs implied by the phrase ever actually occurs in reality.)
 
 
Quantum
09:08 / 27.11.05
(Mordant- try using a different anagram every time, suddenly 'stuck in a mardapig' is less sickening and much more fun! Try it!)

The idea of a sudden pardagim shift is cribbed from the philosophy of science, and is by no means accepted as fact there- never mind when applied to occultism.

I'm fascinated by something Ganesh said in an early post about the reinforcement of the 'Doctor' reality tunnel by powerful ritual i.e. dissecting a cadaver. There are some professions that have a distinct status I think (Medicine, Law, Politics) that is reinforced by ritual and accepted by society. There aren't many jobs where you're given such power over others, that they willingly hand over, and where you are perceived with quasi-mystical awe by many.

What I'm saying is, the DOCTOR persona is likely to be much more powerful and affective (and thus difficult to shift or modify) than, say, the 'shop assistant' pradagim.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:16 / 27.11.05
I'll have to dig out the old "how to shift a paradigm" thread from the Headshop. Some of the alleged paradigm-shifting experiences offered there were fairly convincing (having a child, for instance) whereas others (such as reading a pro-ana messageboard for a bit) were rather less so.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:19 / 27.11.05
Ahh, here we go: How to shift a paradigm.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:52 / 27.11.05
The idea of a sudden pardagim shift is cribbed from the philosophy of science

As I recall, Kuhn's examples of "paradigm shifts" were anything but sudden....

the DOCTOR persona is likely to be much more powerful and affective (and thus difficult to shift or modify) than, say, the 'shop assistant' pradagim.

Shop assistant paradigm?

Oh come on
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:57 / 27.11.05
Maybe 'shop-assistant persona' would be a more helpful phrase. Also, we might benefit from thrashing out what we all mean by these terms, since I get the feeling that we're not all talking about the same thing here...
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:56 / 27.11.05
What i am describing are social masks, notions of self based upon language based intrests,experiences. Also notions of self based upon memory. The two can fuse as a self reflective descriptive narrative.

Social persona's as roles played that perform a social function, From how the shopper shops, to acts of politeness and the surrounding habits of drawing money from a cash point. They could also be a shop assistant job and associated role with a prescriptive level of behaviour and interaction.

I am guessing everybody will have their own definition of what a social role persona mask is.
 
 
Quantum
14:26 / 28.11.05
As I recall, Kuhn's examples of "paradigm shifts" were anything but sudden.... Trouser the Trousarian

Not sudden like an epiphany, but not a gradual incremental change- there's a conflict between old and new paradigms. In contrast to Popper's model.

"When enough significant anomalies have accrued against a current paradigm, the scientific discipline is thrown into a state of crisis, according to Kuhn. During this crisis, new ideas, perhaps ones previously discarded, are tried. Eventually a new paradigm is formed, which gains its own new followers, and an intellectual "battle" takes place between the followers of the new paradigm and the hold-outs of the old paradigm" wikipedia entry on Kuhnian madaprig change
I didn't say it was appropriate to adopt philosophy of science (concerned with a public consensual change) and apply it to individual belief structures, but AFAIK that's where the fondness for using the word 'paradigm' comes from.

Shop assistant paradigm? Oh come on

Whoa there, pickle. My point is not that there are esoteric rituals passed down from shopkeeper to shopkeeper ("Behold, the Z-Report! Thank the mighty Till!") but that some jobs have more of an influence on one's psyche than others. Working as a Doctor is likely to affect the way you think about the world more profoundly than working as something else less intense (pick the menial job of your choice as an example).
 
 
trouser the trouserian
22:09 / 28.11.05
Oh I got your point, Quantum, it's just that "shop assistant paradigm" sounds so cliched, whereas your explanation above is a lot more clearer.

some jobs have more of an influence on one's psyche than others. Working as a Doctor is likely to affect the way you think about the world more profoundly than working as something else less intense (pick the menial job of your choice as an example).

Yes, but does it? I mean there are Doctors who have no problem reconciling their religious beliefs with their professional perspective - I've met a few Christian Doctors and I recall one psychiatrist who believed in the efficacy of exorcism (although I'll grant you that's perhaps an extreme view). There seems to be an implicit "Well ganesh is a Doctor so there's something about being a Doctor that inhibits or prevents belief in 'magical phenomena" - I just don't think its that simple.
 
 
Quantum
13:45 / 29.11.05
There seems to be an implicit "Well ganesh is a Doctor so there's something about being a Doctor that inhibits or prevents belief in 'magical phenomena" - I just don't think its that simple.

I wasn't getting that- maybe I should re-read the thread. I'm sure there are loads of doctors who are magicians (Dee, Faustus..) but it seems like the sort of profession that's more difficult to 'throw off' at the end of the day. In contrast I can't see myself cemented into the worldview of an office worker and finding it restricting- it's easy to step out of.

You could argue that some professions train people into a sceptical headspace that makes them more dismissive of magical phenomena, but it doesn't seem terribly convincing to me.
I think most people aren't influenced that much by their jobs compared to other factors, but some careers are more intrusive than others, more likely to affect your opinions on the world. Cutting up a dead person must be more affecting than learning to use Excel.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:37 / 29.11.05
Must say I'm fascinated by the notion that dissecting a human cadaver could be seen as a ritual designed to imprint the consciousness of an impressionable young adult with the "doctor" worldview. I'm not quite sure how I want to comment on that, but it's interesting stuff, how certain professions and the rituals associated with them shape perspectives in a way that has parallels to initiatory processes.
 
 
grant
15:12 / 29.11.05
I remember reading some gnarly old anthropologist from (I think) the 1930s moaning about how kids these days don't have any real initiations and how in Australia, dammit, the aboriginal elders knock the kids' teeth out with a hunk of stone and that's how it oughtta be done.

So there's probably something to be said for extremes of pain and terror as ways to change your worldview.

Initiations of all kinds would be central to cementing a paradigm.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:39 / 29.11.05
I really enjoyed Terry Pratchetts Science of Discworld collaborations in which his (arguable) genius is laid bare by juxtaposing Discworld silliness with its historical Realworld scientific precedent.

Anyway, he has a great chapter about pretty much exactly this, and how tribal initiations alarmingly often involve e extreme violence and sexual aggression between elders and young men.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
17:06 / 29.11.05
... ganesh hasnt posted on this thread on in a while.

how you feeling docter?
 
 
Ganesh
18:15 / 29.11.05
I'm perfectly euthymic, thankyou. Will post more later.

('Doctor'.)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:30 / 30.11.05
The notion that professionals go through shaping experiences that could be read as 'initiations' is, I think, closer to Kuhn's concept of a paradigm - not only is it a set of received beliefs acquired through education/training, but it also includes peer interactions, practice, and participation in professional (i.e. scientific) community - contributing to journals, peer reviews, and attending conferences. In his postscript to the revised edn of The Structure of Scientific Revolutions he proposed that a paradigm signified: the entire constellation of beliefs, values, techniques, and so on shared by the members of a given community and that as such, they are central to science: no natural history can be interpreted in the absence of at least some implicit body of intertwined theoretical and methodological belief that permits selection, evaluation, and criticism. For Kuhn, shared paradigms set the boundaries for research and unify scientists, via commonly-held standards & methodologies, yet he acknowledges that not all scientists within a particular discipline will necessarily ascribe to the dominant paradigm which it uses. This later refinement of the concept of paradigm also draws on Polyani's notion of 'tacit knowing'.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:46 / 30.11.05
Whats tacit knowing? intuition almost, as in tactile impressions, knowledge embodied in the body?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:45 / 30.11.05
Polanyi & Tacit Knowing

Yes, Middle, Polanyi's concept of 'tacit knowledge' is very much centred on the body - tacit knowing is knowledge that has become interiorised to the extent that one doesn't consciously process it in order to carry out a related action. His memorable phrasing of it is "We know more than we can tell." One of his examples is recognising a familiar face in a crowd - we can do it, but cannot explain exactly how. He also uses the term to discuss how some skills cannot be reduced to their particulars and - whilst they can be learned through experience, cannot be formalised. He quotes a psychiatrist talking to his students:
Gentlemen, you have seen a true epileptic seizure. I cannot tell you how to recognize it; you will learn this by more extensive experience.

Polanyi asserted that scientific claims to 'objective knowledge' were false, and that as in other realms of human experience, many things are known tacitly i.e. learned by doing science, rather than acquiring rules for doing it. He also had some interesting things to say about scientists as passionate about the pursuit for knowledge, as opposed to the idea of them being detached and objective: pioneering scientists must yield to the lure of a particular problem that attracts them. They must deliberately give themselves over to this problem and to allow it to consume them over an extended period of time.
 
 
SteppersFan
19:32 / 30.11.05
Couple of points...

I think many professions go to some lengths to imprint their adherents with particular worldviews. I've certainly heard a number of doctors describe the dissection moment as such. Clearly soldiers go through similar experiences. I think management consultants do too.

If the basic premise of this thread is "helping Ganesh figure out whether or not to do magic or not"... well, if one concern is about being a "bad weather occultist", i.e. only doing it when you need something or are stressed about something, then I think that's perfectly reasonable. My wife tends to laugh openly at magic -- until she really needs something sorting that only magic can help with. Every few years or so.

Beyond that, I think that a under-appreciated facet of magic is its sheer experiential buzz. As Phil Hine said when asked by John Eden why he adopted a magical worldview rather than a strict rationalist one: "It turns me on". If it doesn't turn Ganesh on, then don't do it.
 
 
SteppersFan
07:17 / 01.12.05
Ah! Tacit knowlege... something I haven't thought about for a while... I think Polanyi got picked up by Nonaka to form the discipline of knowledge management... knowledge transfer as experiential and oral. I think this has great relevance to a model of traditions and lineages within magical groups
 
 
Quantum
18:15 / 01.12.05
tacit knowing is knowledge that has become interiorised to the extent that one doesn't consciously process it in order to carry out a related action. Trouserian

Similar/related to Procedural knowledge (phrase from cognitive psychology)- automated skills that you can do but are hard to describe (e.g. riding a bike) as opposed to Declarative knowledge you can verbalise (e.g. spelling).
 
 
Quantum
18:27 / 01.12.05
I think this has great relevance to a model of traditions and lineages within magical groups 2stepfan

Yeah, I often think of the difference between Doing magic and Thinking about magic as similar. You can easily tell the difference between riding a bike and thinking about riding a bike. Seems that the same distinction is not always so obvious to people with magic.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:52 / 02.12.05
I think a lot of Polanyi's ideas can be applied to magick. A few weeks ago, I was reciting a mantra I wasn't very familiar with, and at one point, became consciously aware that I was mispronouncing one phrase - with the result that rhythm I'd built up faltered and I felt 'clumsy'. Later, I was reminded of Polyani's example of the piano player concentrating on the movements of his hands, rather than the music, which disrupts his performance.
 
 
SteppersFan
07:39 / 05.12.05
Yeah, a similar thing is how Nonaka famously uses the example of he sushi chef, where the tacit knowledge of how you use dem big sharp knives to make itty bitty cuts gets imprinted via association rather than training...
 
 
SteppersFan
07:42 / 05.12.05
Another related concept my sufi teacher uses is "muscle memory". The piano player is trying to get the memory of how to play the notes in the muscles not in the head. Same thing with emotions, same thing with magic.
 
  

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