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Stuck in a paradigm

 
  

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Unconditional Love
15:25 / 22.11.05
Perhaps its not a case of believing or not believing, but of accepting the possibility, belief is perhaps not useful as it closes off the option of other possibility during practice. open acceptence, i am reiterating others posts i think.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:51 / 22.11.05
'nesh: thanks for digging this up, fascinating stuff. (but then I *would* say that, spying on people's navel=gazing being my thing. Emotional voyeurism, moi?)

Would it be stretching to connect the relationship you draw between participating the Temple/turning towards its concerns as an escape/what might have been strategy and the Magic as Maladaptive... thread?

As in that thread, people seem to partly differientiate between 'magical work' and 'thinking about magical things'. The one often brings self up against one's scariest stuff/having potential for movement/benefit, the other being a very efficient/satisfying way of distracting oneself from areas that need work.
 
 
Ganesh
16:04 / 22.11.05
Would it be stretching to connect the relationship you draw between participating the Temple/turning towards its concerns as an escape/what might have been strategy and the Magic as Maladaptive... thread?

Oddly enough, I had been thinking about the Maladaptive thread. Equally, however, one might posit that it's my use of the 'doctor' reality tunnel (still feel self-consciously Ragesque typing that) that's maladaptive, and I ought to work on relinquishing it fully to blossom into the fully Templed-up creature that I always meant to be.

I guess it depends where one is standing. In a way, I think it's probably quite a primitive (fight-or-)flight thing: when the doctory part of my life's looking horribly stressful, it becomes more important for me to feel that it's not the b-all and end-all, that I have alternatives. Conceptual bolt-holes, if y'like.

It's certainly true that the few times I do actually begin to properly dabble with magic/meditation/dreaming techniques, etc. tend to be these periods of stress or the other extreme, when I'm on holiday...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:08 / 22.11.05
hmm. One could argue that. One could also argue that it's not neccessarily an either/or position. As the Templey beings in that and other threads talk as much about experience, pragmatism, results, evidence and analysis as about Teh V0id.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:13 / 22.11.05
conceptual bolt-holes

Nice.

(A bit of random context on yr earlier discussions of how you'd ended up where you did: growing up in hideously medical family, I think that if I'd been remotely able to get into med school, I might have a)succumbed to the pressure but I'd've b) likely ended up in psychiatry, as my insufferable medical uncles/cousins(surgeons, all) were always berating it in a way that made it sound fascinating.)
 
 
Ganesh
16:17 / 22.11.05
Yeah, that's true. I guess recently I've been thinking the thing I saw as potentially problematic last December was probably not my medical training but me: my innate scepticism - plus my impatience/inability to properly invest in something I don't genuinely believe in. Which takes us back to how much belief is necessary to engage meaningfully with a paradigm that's not one's primary/everyday one (if that makes sense). If one goes through the motions enough, half-believing or slightly-believing (ie. ajar mind rather than wide open mind), might one expect quantifiable results? Would that count as 'doing the work' or would more belief be needed?
 
 
Ganesh
16:19 / 22.11.05
... I'd've b) likely ended up in psychiatry, as my insufferable medical uncles/cousins(surgeons, all) were always berating it in a way that made it sound fascinating.

It is fascinating.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:27 / 22.11.05
I'd say those questions are easily comparable to the kind of questions one might get from a client beginning to engage with pyschotherapy/non-medicating strategies around mental health*

And the answers are similar? What have you got to lose, why not try it and we'll see what happens, you've identified an interest in some practices/changes, why not get some experience in them.

Much as many clients in psychotherapy(and I'd imagine(?) many more patients in psychiatry) are dubious when they start. Often the only way to find out if the various practices on offer are going to be effective is to try them?

Very rarely when someone seeks counselling/psychiatry are these already their dominant 'paradigm' (unless they already *are* a counsellor/psychiatrist, which is a whole different ballgame!).

There's a period of adjustment, integrating new ways of working, often working with little belief/faith in the process, isn't there? (certainly my exp as a client and worker in listening envs.)

(*and this is alot of why I post in the Temple, as it's the only place here - ie where a bunch of people I like to discuss with - that places emphasis on experiential knowledge - aside from my personal conception/experience of my listening work in terms which overlap enormously with much of what goes on here, there's a more general point about accessing discussions that often start from a point of (self-examination via) *doing*)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:28 / 22.11.05
ie: Stop Whining And Adopt.
 
 
Ganesh
16:32 / 22.11.05
You've been waiting to crowbar that one in for ages, haven't you?

I guess the difference/similarity between my position re: the Temple and that of someone starting psychotherapy is that my motivation is hugely inconsistent. I'd probably be one of those people who presents at times of stress but makes excuses for missing appointments when things are going well.

Hm. Not a flattering comparison.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:34 / 22.11.05
Of course I have.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:39 / 22.11.05
oh, and have edited previous post to add that something along the lines of what you say, noting that AFAIK, and I'd be interested in your op on this, the backwards-forwards/unconvinced approach is very common in people presenting for counselling, psychotherapy and psychotherapy.

That often we begin working with people who are extremely dubious about the practices involved but have got to a point of wanting to try something. (I've exp'd this both as client and worker) - there's often alot of ambiguity in people's initial approaches to/experience of mental health practices isn't there? This doesn't neccessarily disqualify them.

I can imagine some similarities with approaches to magical ones (as well as differences, the stigma of seeking help for mental health issues replaced by the stigma of irrationality/madness, perhaps?)
 
 
Ganesh
16:46 / 22.11.05
Yeah. Asking myself, "what's my motivation?" I'd say again that the times I've actually tried some of the practices here have been at times of work-stress (which probably isn't the best psychological space) and, at the other extreme, when I'm on holiday and comparitively relaxed - as I am at present. So... my motivations to get more involved in trying Templey stuff tend to be either "there must be more to life than this" and "might be interesting giving this a go".

Which mindset is likely to be best for Tempular experimentation?
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
17:05 / 22.11.05
Paradigms get worn out, but sometimes you are just breaking them in. In any case, its best you dont sport anything for too extended of a period, since it'll probably start to smell, rip, and fray.

Changing a paradigm is just as easy as changing clothes, and there doesnt have to be any reason for it beyond that it feels good to change into something new, or something you havent used in a while.

So with any luck, sooner or later one will develop a sense of style and be able to mix, match, reuse, or diy their paradigms.

come all, ye reality fashionistas ^_^
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:53 / 22.11.05
Giving things ago seems like a good idea, but i think you may be being alittle too hard on your doctor persona, its cool, great to have about and brings a certain kind of clarity to conversations in the temple.

Changing a view point doesnt mean throwing away what youve already built, but building in something new, perhaps trying to work with everyday things would work, rather than say adopting something removed entirely from what your used to (although it seems to me that is the whole holiday feeling)
perhaps working on awareness of for example loving kindness in all interactions from collegues to checkout staff, or other qualities you may wish to exhibit, breath work perhaps, it can be performed at any location.
 
 
Ganesh
19:53 / 22.11.05
Changing a paradigm is just as easy as changing clothes

When that paradigm maps onto one's means of income, one tends to be more attached to it than one's clothes. Even one's really great coats.
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
23:25 / 22.11.05
get creative, changing what you do is different than how you do.
 
 
Ganesh
23:36 / 22.11.05
Practical suggestions?
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
00:39 / 23.11.05
Certainly you've heard of other docter types who had this same problem.

Just dont't melt your brain and get a stutter.

Besides that claptrap, make a conscious effort to be 'irrational', create totems, live in your imagination, and respect that as a legit facet of your reality. Just dont forget that certain other things are pretty legit too, considering that your someones docter I guess.

Perhaps it would be good for you to pick up reading on native shamanistic healing, acupuncture, nautropathy, and all that other stuff most docters could consider hoodoo, as an attempt to bridge between who you are, and who you would perhaps like to become.

Just try, its the hardest step, and it takes you farther than you may have guessed.

So how about writing me some 'scipts, eh? ^_^
 
 
grant
17:32 / 23.11.05
Well, I think by definition a "paradigm" is something that's really hard to alter -- even if it consists of a constant state of assessment and interpretation (a paradigm of paradigm-change).

Like, chaoflux23, have you ever just been really dogmatic and rigid for a month to see how it feels? A month of deterministic materialism?
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
23:50 / 23.11.05
Like, chaoflux23, have you ever just been really dogmatic and rigid for a month to see how it feels? A month of deterministic materialism?

I've done a good amount of work with switching personas and accompanying world views, having been moving around plenty of times since I first dipped myself into the occultic.

Honestly, moving from one place to the next makes the whole process of that kind of change all the easier, so youre right in noting that its probably much more difficult to pull off for someone in Ganesha's shoes.

My phase in the "orange meme" was one of the first ones I experiemented with, and at one point I reused. The first time I made my rounds as such, it was in the form of your atheistic 'militant' laveyian high school kid.

In any case, I feel that it doesnt hurt to try, 'play pretend' as who you actually wish you were, while somehow working that persona creatively in the situation youve already got yourself into. I know its worked for me.

My inspiration for this stuff has pretty much started with the TOPY's _Grey Book's_
 
 
ESOZONE : Oct 10 - 12 PDX 2008
23:52 / 23.11.05
... message from thee temple.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:34 / 24.11.05
Ganesh

You might find this paper of interest: From Crisis to Growth at Midlife: Changes in Personal Paradigm

Not that I'm implying that you're having a 'mid-life' crisis, mind! It's an interesting piece of research, nonetheless, drawing on Kuhn's notion of the Paradigm Shift and integrating it within developmental theories.
 
 
razorsmile
11:48 / 24.11.05
my motivations to get more involved in trying Templey stuff tend to be either "there must be more to life than this" and "might be interesting giving this a go".

Which mindset is likely to be best for Tempular experimentation?


If it were a choice between these two options it should be the latter one I'd say, since the main goal in being able to shift paradigms is enabling an open-ness. The former notion - with it's 'must' - is another sort of desperate closed paradigm akin to the one that drives the religious the world over. 'Interesting' is the key word and should give you the clue perhaps, not to finding new beliefs but to finding less beliefs since an interesting issue is one that is always at least on the edge of what we believe and an interesting life depends not on belief but on interesting activity.

As a philosopher I find it strange trying to teach students - Nietzsche is a good example since I'm doing that at the moment - where what you're teaching them is not a fixed and determinable content but a methodology with content implications, particularly where that methodology is precisely one of using open systems. Most people are simply far too fixed in what they think they believe and yet in reality the practice of the vast majority of people is incredibly flexible. Given personal intimacy with an issue people can change very rapidly - abstractly thinking about an issue seems to require some need to fix things. Personally I think it's a result of a functional origin to consiousness and that, in essence, the need to fix things is a sign of the stupidity (in a kind of good sense) that underlies our nature (a word i hate of course but 'being' would just sound too poncey there).

I would try two different things if I were in your position.

(1) look out for interesting scientific community explorations of ASC's, of which there is a lot, and begin to engage with that literature - the Journal for Consciousness Studies for example is a good place to start, an open eclectic and at times downright funny (for an academic) journal which includes things like establishing working groups on meditation practices and effects. It's abit easier for me in a sense since I can look at the issue of ASC and schizophrenia as a philosopher (although I did work as a psych nurse before) and so am allowed to stand back a bit rather than having to engage in a daily practice. The object here is to break down the idea that the way you diagnose and treat is the best way you could possibly do so, it's in fact the best way you can do so within current accepted peer paradigms and involving yourself in investigating alternatives will bring to the fore the fact that practice is pragmatic (and a key aspect of the pragmatic use of a tool is that everyone thinks its' the best tool for the job at the point it's being used) and ideas (stop using the word belief maybe?) are always seperately developing (otherwise no new practices etc). Kuhn's notion of paradigm shifts, Bruno Latour's work on scientific practice etc all show the tension between practice and theory in changing a paradigm

(2) don't think temple work should be serious - when you do something, whether you think you believe is irrelevant as in a sense the body does it for you - by which I mean, establish habits - set up an altar, something simple, notice it every now and then (perhaps get a moon chart and put it next to the wall calendar and try to notice full or dark moons); try to meditate once a day for a week not for ever; practice a circle forming technique - and do it for a laugh, not because it's an answer - you're looking for something interesting not a bloody revelation (always bullshit); buy a random how-to book and follow it through if you feel like something a little more prolonged etc etc. By establishing an altar and then doing some practice intermittently over the course of two or three years you will begin to embed things as habits and then believing in them won't be important.

Using both these strategies might eventually minimise the tension that seems to exist for you between the two world views.

The big thing to remember (for me) is that belief is bullshit - you don't need it and generally you don't have it since all beliefs can be destroyed. It's just a temporary neurochemical state...

(sorry for the length...got on one a bit...I'm still going through one of those odd paradigm shifts as I only began teaching three years ago and after 11 years as a student I'm still grappling with the wierd change in power and time relations).
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:20 / 24.11.05
Changing a paradigm is just as easy as changing clothes

Is it bollocks. Give me three solid examples of when you've ever "changed your paradigm". The examples in your other post sound more like short-term play acting. There is a difference between pretending to be a "atheistic 'militant' laveyian high school kid" for a couple of hours and genuinely changing the underlying paradigm that you operate from in your life - which is what we're talking about here in terms of Ganesh's self-identification as a doctor.

Changing your paradigm is not the same as pretending to be something else for five minutes then reverting back to your usual comfortable self and its boundaries. There is a difference between a stoner hippy artist guy pretending to be an arrogant greed focused banker in a social situation, to "prove" how flexible his "paradigm" is. And that stoner hippy artist guy actually turning himself into an arrogant greed focused banker for a period of six years and identifying with that role to the same extent he identified with his previous persona and its boundaries.

Have you ever done that?
 
 
Quantum
12:21 / 24.11.05
Changing a paradigm is just as easy as changing clothes chaoflux

No it isn't, or it wouldn't matter or mean anything.

Do you ever feel you're cemented into your current worldview? How come? thread summary, Ganesh

Because worldviews are necessarily all-encompassing, and have mental inertia. It's not like changing clothes, it's like moving house, with all the baggage and stress and hysterical shouting that's involved with that.

Scuse my brevity, more when not on a 2 minute timer in an internet cafe...
 
 
Sax
14:36 / 24.11.05
chaoflux23: get creative, changing what you do is different than how you do.

Ganesh: Practical suggestions?


Write. You're a fucking great writer (for a doctor, ha-ha) and I'm constantly impressed by your command of the language. You're also well versed in all manner of dramatic storytelling, given your posts in books, comics and TV.

Write. It's very cathartic and useful.

Sorry, not very Tempular answer.
 
 
Earlier than I thought
14:45 / 24.11.05
I can't say that I've ever totally abandoned an old 'self', but I dropped a ridiculously well paid easy job this year to become a teacher. It wasn't my intention to adopt a new paradigm, so to speak, but I've found that (even before I actually started the teaching bit) my whole persona altered dramatically. By which I mean that speech, vocabulary, appearance and all kind of small attitude things all changed dramatically, without me actually doing anything about it conciously.

When I find photographs from only a few months ago, the difference is a little disturbing. And yes, if this is what we're talking about, it is extremely like moving house. The new place is much handier for the shops, wears better suits, has that Northern camp thing going on and likes to pretend to be Frankenstein's monster in order to shut classrooms up.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:08 / 24.11.05
But altering one's persona is very different than altering one's deeply-held personal beliefs and world-view, no? I've worn many different personae over the years: the character I portrayed when I worked as an office clerk in the West End was a very different creature than the character who worked on production lines, which was different again from the character I played at Uni, which was different again from the character I played when working with learning-disabled adults, learning to sing, or clubbing on the Goth scene. They were all very different roles and demanded different things from me. But the me in me remained: I learned, sure, I had certain of my assumptions challenged, but certain passionately-held ideas and principles endured.

In my fiction writing, I've also found it an interesting excercise to write from the point of view of someone with very different beliefs than myself. however, I've never really been able to do this well; I always end up with a comedy grotesque rather than a credible voice.

It could be argued that none of the above roles was ever really likely to challenge my beliefs, but then we get into whether it would be ethically okay for me to (eg) sign up as security for Halliburton or whatever just as a psychological experiment.
 
 
illmatic
16:30 / 24.11.05
Another point - I've sometimes wondered when reading descriptions of belief shifting, about depth of belief - ie do the engagements "paradigm shifting" brings about have anything like the significance of say, a something from a devout catholic family converting to Judaism for reasons of marriage (for instance)? Are they beliefs we'd die for or just superficial affections? I'd argue the latter in most cases.

This is not to say serious and significant change isn't possible. I'd say that I think "paradigm shifting" - changing your self-identifications and social roles - might well be, but not in the easy, chuck yer paradigms in the air sort of way that is sometimes implied in the "literature".I think for it's a complex process which is different for everybody, but there's a lot more depths are normally recognised. I think the moving house analogy is apposite.
 
 
Earlier than I thought
17:51 / 24.11.05
But altering one's persona is very different than altering one's deeply-held personal beliefs and world-view, no?

Oh, absolutely. I just threw it in as an example of a major persona change with physical consequences (my entire body language has altered, presumably it's a confidence thing). Probably 'paradigm' was a poor choice of word on my part. I can't imagine dropping an entire worldview in the space of a month, though substantial changes have taken place. Which makes one wonder - is it possible? And under what circumstances could it be desirable for an individual to effect such a change?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:48 / 24.11.05
Most Temple regulars probably know what I've popped up to say, so I'm not even going to bother.

Now THAT's what I call Paradigm Shifting! Volume 23.
 
 
illmatic
20:18 / 24.11.05
Jut struck by this up thread:

If one goes through the motions enough, half-believing or slightly-believing (ie. ajar mind rather than wide open mind), might one expect quantifiable results? Would that count as 'doing the work' or would more belief be needed?

Personally, I didn't go into magick stuff believing in it, I tried to prove it to myself. And a lot of early attempts just really didn't work but I was fascinated enough to keep going. I sort of "had the bug". Gradually, over a period of time, certain convinced me, of their validity and certain things lost their sheen (seemed like bullshit), and I started to think critically about all the received "wisdom" (I use the term in it's loosest possible sense) that goes along with occultism. Most people who stuck with it seem to find a way which suits them eventually, butit's quite a personal process. Possibly there are counselling/psychotherapy parallels here.

I'd add I think age has something to do with this - there's a manic intensity in your early twenties that helps in formualting any sort of worldview.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:03 / 25.11.05
Lots of interesting stuff, and I'd like to add to the 'bollocks' regarding paradigm change/changing clothes.

'Nother way I might approach, is to find things in you interests/work/day-to-day that might operate differently to the paradigms(that word is starting to look weird) that you are trying to destabilise.

Your descriptions, here and on other threads, of why/how you ended up specialising in psychiatry seem to me to have a flavour of that in them already. Maybe have a look at what it is in the rest of medicine that turns you off, and what makes psychiatry so fascinating for you?
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:47 / 25.11.05
Heres a practice i consider sometimes, my name.
my birth name, am i too believe i am a series of sounds, because they have been repeated enough for me too identify with them? Am i to believe i am a series of characters (letters)because i was taught to recognise them as my name and then write my name? Am i really my name?

I ve come to the conclusion i am not but have no idea what i really am, but then i cant ask that question without giving some validity to letters and words that to some extent i have to identify with to communicate.

So my identity is a habit, a practice, ive practiced very hard at being my birth name so much so, that on occasion i actually think it is me. That other people address me by it doesnt help me give up the illusion of it, they record it, file it and log it, making sure i am somebody. So i play along knowing all the time they are kidding themselves and me, how can they possibly confuse me with sounds and symbols i wonder, but then i do just the same occasionally about them.

Every other facet of myself is just as much practice, years of hard toil building up an identity centred around certain words and sounds, wearing the right costumes, learning the right skills, but none of it is really me, if my birth name is my root centre the launching point for all my other identifications, i understand that just like my birth name, i am none of those things, there fun to play in and they can be traumatic deadly and humourous, but they arent the truth of what i am. The egyptian idea, that names have power, they do if you identify with the names.

Am i really middle nephilim wofangel mark, no, but all the time i want the pretence and you want the pretence to be your identifications we can pretend and play.

Have you ever been mugged or smacked in the face? i sometimes treasure these moments because for that time of overiding sensation, i am no longer the words, my mind is raw sensation. given enough after thought i am pissed off and traumatised(is that how i am ment to react?) but in the moment i am just so alive. Its probably not the best example but its the first that comes to mind.

A practical application is this, once i know i am not the forms in my mind, neither memory or word, dream or speech, i can release the energy bound into those forms and so if i wish begin to reapply that energy to new forms or just allow it to become a part of my being (physically if you wish) (for want of better terminology). terminal terminology.
 
  

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