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What's so good about Market Forces, anyway?

 
  

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Lurid Archive
17:42 / 06.12.04
Compare

Basically, most people think that if you start with a simple set of rules (such as that "humans act"), the outcome will also be simple and predictable.

and contrast

The whole point is that you can make LOGICAL statements about how economics work based on the use of reason by looking at how INDIVIDUALS act.

I don't really want to be rude here, but the contention that looking at empirical data is hopeless and that deriving everything from first principles from some self evident set of axioms is the only way to avoid the pitfalls of chaos theory seems...well, bonkers.

I have a lot of sympathy for the view that laws extracted from social data are suspect, but inspiration driven certitude of libertarianism really doesn't become more convincing just because you justify it in some other quasi-mathematical framework. Cellular automata, indeed.
 
 
MJ-12
17:47 / 06.12.04
The whole point is that you can make LOGICAL statements about how economics work based on the use of reason by looking at how INDIVIDUALS act.

See, this is what makes me conclude that we do need bodies with heavy regulatory power, and a strong social safety net. But maybe we're looking at different individuals.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:48 / 06.12.04
If the tax is a flat fee of $5000/year for each person, is that theft? Yeah. Is it an ideal construct? No. Is it infinitely better than tax rates of 50+%

Well, if you are earning $8000 a year, no, it isn't. It's a lot worse, and it radically limits your spending power, which makes you a less efficient consumer and limits your access to private property. If you don't pay, on the other hand, you find that you have no protection against incursions against your private property, and therefore the capitalist system has left you worse off than you were as a citizen of a "mixed socialist" system.
 
 
jbsay
17:52 / 06.12.04
Lurid-

You wrote:

I don't really want to be rude here, but the contention that looking at empirical data is hopeless and that deriving everything from first principles from some self evident set of axioms is the only way to avoid the pitfalls of chaos theory seems...well, bonkers.

There is nothing bonkers about it. For you to believe that you can apply statistics to aggregate human behavior is for you to argue that there is no such thing as free will. This is the positivist school, (which, incidentally, has led to all sorts of crazy social engineering). Are humans the same as atoms? Would you care to make that case?

I have a lot of sympathy for the view that laws extracted from social data are suspect, but inspiration driven certitude of libertarianism really doesn't become more convincing just because you justify it in some other quasi-mathematical framework. Cellular automata, indeed.
No, not suspect. The word is "useless". To boil down your statistics, you are implicitly assuming that tomorrow will look like yesterday. This further implies that individuals have no free will, cannot adapt, learn, or change their minds.

Cellular automata and swarm theory are good visual illustrations of the point, nothing more. And wolfram (this has been discussed elsewhere on barbelith, so lets not get sidetracked with the wolfram debate) illustrates that even in "hard sciences" you dont need math to do science.
 
 
jbsay
17:56 / 06.12.04
Tann--

Of course. THe point was a "flat fee" that is small enough for even the most poor to pay. Is it fair? Nope. Is it fair that I pay 50% of my salary in taxes? Nope. That means for 1/2 the year i'm a slave. There is no such thing as a "fair" tax. So maybe 5k is too high if the average salary is 8k. But, this would allow the free market to work its magic (enhancing the poor man's standard of living, and LOWERING prices, so his $8000 actually buys him MORE than it would have under a lower tax rate because of innovation, competition, and the lack of moronic governments printing money and causing prices to go ever higher so he can't afford food on $8k).
 
 
jbsay
18:10 / 06.12.04
And, as an aside, statistics doesn't even work very well on ATOMS which theoretically have no free will. It turns out that even observing an atom can/will change its state (forgive me some liberties here, i'm not trying to get into a quantum theory debate). Makes using statistics pretty complicated, doesn't it. How do you back out the changes that occurred because you were observing the situation and using statistics? hm?
 
 
Bomb The Past
18:42 / 06.12.04
jah: There is nothing bonkers about it. For you to believe that you can apply statistics to aggregate human behavior is for you to argue that there is no such thing as free will.

Nope. There is a germ of an argument here but it's not one that's going to stick. This might be a pre-requisite for establishing iron laws of economic behaviour, but it does not prove that statistics cannot have a positive role in economic modelling or planning (even if all that 'planning' consists in is a critique of the current system).

To boil down your statistics, you are implicitly assuming that tomorrow will look like yesterday.

The problem with this is that it pretty much fucks up all inductive conclusions, with most of science flying out the window too. There is a Cartesian sense in which you might want to say that you can't indubitably know that observed regularities will continue. But at the same time there is a sense in which you can't know whether or not you hand will turn into a carrot tomorrow. The point is that we seem to be able to observe trends, and though these trends may not be law-like they surely have some bearing on likely economic behaviour. You might object that we can never have enough information to leave us with any idea of what the causal factors were, but if a company drops its prices and its sales go up or visa versa, there's a pretty plausible link between the two factors given it's observed so widely.

(And anyway, what's wrong with determinism? -- Though let's not get derailed by that old chestnut)
 
 
jbsay
18:50 / 06.12.04
This reminds me of a debate with a colleague about the use of econometrics/monte carlo simulation for a stock.

i've got a couple problems w/ monte carlo (actually they are probably the same issue)
1) one predefines the probability distribution at the beginning of the sim which biases the output. there is a saying an economist (or a statistician) is someone who draws a mathematically precise line from an unwarranted assumption to a foregone conclusion. basically when someone does a monte carlo sim they programming in a foregone conclusion about how the world (or market) works, even though it looks sophisticated and the MC simulation runs a lot of random trials within the distributions. i'm not confident that we can accurately pre-assess the distribution in the stock market or any other complex adaptive system, particularly if there are human beings involved at the base of the system.

http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2004/0928/p16s01-bogn.html. see also wolfram and the complexity/chaos guys.

2) critique more of econometrics than monte carlo but same principle applies.
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=940
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1051&id=73
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1001
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1517&id=68
 
 
jbsay
19:01 / 06.12.04
Dead Flower--

Nope. There is a germ of an argument here but it's not one that's going to stick. This might be a pre-requisite for establishing iron laws of economic behaviour, but it does not prove that statistics cannot have a positive role in economic modelling or planning (even if all that 'planning' consists in is a critique of the current system).

Can human beings act consciously and of their own free will? If so, then statistics is irrelevant as applied to their actions (as opposed to applying statistics to throwing differnet objects out a window and observing terminal velocity). Just because they've spent their entire life doing something one way doesnt mean they can decide to change it, which means your entire statistical model is wrong. Usually, a ball doesnt wake up and realize its about to hit the ground in mid-flight, so statistics is better applied to non-conscious objects.



The problem with this is that it pretty much fucks up all inductive conclusions, with most of science flying out the window too. There is a Cartesian sense in which you might want to say that you can't indubitably know that observed regularities will continue. But at the same time there is a sense in which you can't know whether or not you hand will turn into a carrot tomorrow. The point is that we seem to be able to observe trends, and though these trends may not be law-like they surely have some bearing on likely economic behaviour. You might object that we can never have enough information to leave us with any idea of what the causal factors were, but if a company drops its prices and its sales go up or visa versa, there's a pretty plausible link between the two factors given it's observed so widely.

No, not really. My argument applies to human action, not to an apple falling out of a tree. Doesn't really upset most of our scientific knowledge base.

Trends may SEEM to have bearing on economic behavior (for the past 80+ years people have believed that a piece of paper is money) but it doesnt mean that in the FUTURE people will continue to believe that it has value, particularly if you note that prices are continually rising and your paper money is worth less and less. People live and learn.

(And anyway, what's wrong with determinism?
Nothing wrong with determinism--if you want to live your life that way, its fine. But the problem in the SOCIAL SCIENCES is that this then gives YOU an excuse to argue for a totalitarian (socialist) society that makes MY decisions for ME. And since *I* think that *I* have free will, i don't much appreciate the notion of being a slave.
 
 
jbsay
19:11 / 06.12.04
Does this mean to say that I don't use math at all in myw rok? Of course not. I do a ton of quant work. It can be useful for framing problems, and assessing different scenarios. However, a lot of it is guesswork, and the answer is ALWAYS interpreted qualitatively (my risk/reward tolerance is different than yours...its a subjective matter.)
I don't expect to come up with some law that lets me PREDICT the future however, and I would never make the faulty assumption that it is a LAW that I can use to shape society. Business is basically gambling--weighing risk versus reward. The better you weigh these risks, the better you do (If someone wins a lottery it doesnt mean he's a genius). I wouldn't want to use my math techniques, no matter how sophisticated I get, to "gamble" with society at large by social experiments, however. And, my gut instinct is as important to me as the hard numbers.

I would also urge you to look at Long Term Capital--some of the best mathematical economic minds in the country. The problem is that life ain't predictible, and when you lever yourself up your ass these little "statistical anomalies" can cause really serious fucking problems. That was just one company. Imagine using this stupidity on an ENTIRE economy.

Sorry, i'm incoherent.. Long day.
 
 
jbsay
19:29 / 06.12.04
from mises.org

What is Wrong With Econometrics?
by Frank Shostak

[Posted April 22, 2002]

A recent academic study by economists Karl Case, John Quigley, and Robert Shiller of consumer-spending behavior in the U.S. and 13 other developed nations indicates that the wealth effect from housing is twice as great on consumer spending as comparable changes in stock-market wealth. In the U.S., for example, they found that a 10-percent gain in housing prices would provoke an average 0.62-percent increase in consumption, while a similar jump in stock-market wealth only elicited about a 0.3-percent to 0.2-percent increase in spending (Barron’s, April 15, 2002).

What enabled these economists to derive these answers is econometric modeling.

In the natural sciences, a laboratory experiment can isolate various elements and their movements. There is no equivalent in the discipline of economics. The employment of econometrics and econometric model-building is an attempt to produce a laboratory where controlled experiments can be conducted.

The idea of having such a laboratory is very appealing to economists and politicians. Once the model is built and endorsed as a good replica of the economy, politicians can evaluate the outcomes of various policies. This, it is argued, enhances the efficiency of government policies and thus leads to a better and more prosperous economy. It is also suggested that the model can serve as a referee in assessing the validity of various economic ideas. The other purpose of a model is to provide an indication regarding the future.

By means of mathematical and statistical methods, an econometrician establishes functional relationships between various economic variables. For example, personal consumer outlays are related to personal disposable income and interest rates, while fixed capital spending is explained by the past stock of capital, interest rates, and economic activity. A collection of such various estimated relations—i.e., equations—constitutes an econometric model.

A comparison of the goodness of fit of the dynamic simulation versus the actual data is an important criterion in assessing the reliability of a model. (In a static simulation, the equations of the model are solved using actual lagged variables. In a dynamic simulation, the equations are solved by employing calculated from the model-lagged variables). The final test of the model is its response to a policy variable change, such as an increase in taxes or a rise in government outlays. By means of a qualitative assessment, a model builder decides whether the response is reasonable or not. Once the model is successfully constructed, it is ready to be used.

Despite the aura of importance and mysterious wisdom that econometric modeling projects, it is nevertheless an empty vessel. The econometric modeling procedure employs an untenable methodology: it tries to capture human behavior by means of mathematical and statistical methods.

Is the mathematical method valid in economics?
By applying mathematics, mainstream economics is attempting to follow in the footsteps of natural sciences. In the natural sciences, the employment of mathematics enables scientists to formulate the essential nature of objects. In short, by means of a mathematical formula, the response of objects to a particular stimulus in a given condition is captured. Consequently, within these given conditions, the same response will be obtained time and again.

The same approach, however, is not valid in economics. For economics is supposed to deal with human beings and not objects. According to Mises,

The experience with which the sciences of human action have to deal is always an experience of complex phenomena. No laboratory experiments can be performed with regard to human action.[1]
The main characteristic or nature of human beings is that they are rational animals. They use their minds to sustain their lives and well-being. The usage of the mind, however, is not set to follow some kind of automatic procedure, but rather every individual employs his mind in accordance with his own circumstances. This makes it impossible to capture human nature by means of mathematical formulae, as is done in the natural sciences.

In short, people have the freedom of choice to change their minds and pursue actions that are contrary to what was observed in the past. As a result of the unique nature of human beings, analyses in economics can only be qualitative.

Furthermore, to pursue quantitative analysis implies the possibility of the assignment of numbers, which can be subjected to all of the operations of arithmetic. To accomplish this, it is necessary to define an objective fixed unit. Such an objective unit, however, doesn’t exist in the realm of human valuations. On this Mises wrote, "There are, in the field of economics, no constant relations, and consequently no measurement is possible."[2]

There are no constant standards for measuring the minds, the values, and the ideas of men. Valuation is the means by which a conscious purposeful individual assesses the given facts of reality. In other words once an individual establishes what the facts are, he then assesses which out of these established facts are the most suitable to attain his various ends.

Individual goals or ends set the standard for valuing the facts of reality. For instance, if the goal of an individual is to improve his health, then he would establish which goods will benefit his health and which will not. Among those that will benefit him, some will be more effective than others. There is no way, however, to quantify this effectiveness. All that one could do is rank these goods in accordance with perceived effectiveness.

The use of mathematics in economics poses another serious problem. The employment of mathematical functions implies that human actions are set in motion by various factors. However, this is an erroneous way of thinking. For instance, contrary to the mathematical way of thinking, individual outlays on goods are not "caused" by real income as such. In his own context, every individual decides how much of a given amount of income will be used for consumption and how much for savings. While it is true that people respond to changes in their incomes, the response is not automatic, and it cannot be captured by a mathematical formula. For instance, an increase in an individual’s income doesn’t automatically imply that his consumption expenditure will follow suit. In other words, every individual assesses the increase in income against the goals he wants to achieve. Thus he might decide that it is more beneficial for him to raise his savings rather than raise his consumption.

The validity of probability theory in economics
While mathematics is the key tool of econometric methods, the foundation of econometrics is probability theory. What is probability? The probability of an event is the proportion of times the event occurs out of a large number of trials. For instance, the probability of obtaining heads when a coin is tossed is 50 percent. This does not mean that when a coin is tossed 10 times, five heads are always obtained. However, if the experiment is repeated a large number of times, then it is likely that 50 percent will be obtained. The greater the number of throws, the nearer the approximation is likely to be.

Alternatively, say it has been established that in a particular area the probability of wooden houses catching fire is .01. This means that on the basis of experience, on average, 1 percent of wooden houses will catch fire. This does not mean that this year or the following year the percentage of houses catching fire will be exactly 1 percent. The percentage might be 1 percent each year or not. Over time, however, the average of these percentages will be 1 percent.

This information, in turn, can be converted into the cost of fire damages thereby establishing the case for insuring against the risk of fire. Owners of wooden houses might decide to pool their risk, i.e., spread the risk by setting up a fund. In other words, every owner of a wooden house will contribute according to a certain proportion to the total amount of money that is required in order to cover the damages of those owners whose houses will be damaged by the fire. Note that insurance against the fire risk can only take place because we know its probability distribution and because there are enough owners of wooden houses to spread the cost of fire damage among them so that the premium will not be excessive. In this regard, these owners of wooden houses are all members of a particular group or class that will be affected in a similar way by a fire. We know that, on average, 1 percent of the members of this group will be affected by fire. However, we don’t know exactly who it will be. The important thing for insurance is that members of a group must be homogeneous as far as a particular event is concerned.

In economics, however, we don’t deal with homogeneous cases. Each observation is a unique, nonrepeatable event caused by a particular individual response. Consequently, no probability distribution can be established. Again, probability distribution rests on the assumption that we are dealing with a nonparticular, and so repeatable, event. Let us take for instance entrepreneurial activities. If these activities were repeatable with known probability distributions, then we would not need entrepreneurs. After all, an entrepreneur is an individual who arranges his activities toward finding out consumers’ future requirements. People’s requirements, however, are never constant with respect to a particular good. The assumption that econometrics makes--that probability distribution exists and can be quantified--leads to absurd results. For it describes, not a world of human beings who exercise their minds in making choices, but machines.

Human activities, however, cannot be analyzed in the same way that one would analyze objects. To make sense of historical data, one must scrutinize them not by means of statistical methods but by means of trying to grasp and understand how they emerged.

Econometric models have nothing to do with the reality.
Given the fact that human beings are governed by freedom of choice, the various policy analyses by means of models, known as "what if" or multiplier analyses, are little more than children’s games and cannot be taken seriously. After all, to assume that a change in government policy would leave the structure of equations intact would mean that individuals in the economy ceased to be alive and were, in fact, frozen.

Another major problem with most econometric models is that they are designed along the lines of Keynesian economic thinking. Thus the main variable in these models is gross domestic product, which is explained within the model framework by the interactions between various lumped data known as aggregates. The interaction between various aggregates in the model framework gives the impression that the economy is about gross domestic product, or about balance of payments, but not about human beings and human life. Obviously this runs contrary to the fact that everything in the human world is caused by man’s purposeful conduct.

To improve an econometric model’s capability as a forecasting tool, econometricians often employ various tricks. The predictive capability of each equation in the model is checked against actual data, and the difference between the actual data and the data obtained from the equations, also known as the add factor, is extrapolated forward and incorporated into the models equations.

In many instances the forecast produced by an econometric model is heavily influenced by the add factor which allows the model builder to force the outcome of the forecast in line with his "gut feelings." Most people are not aware of these tricks and believe that the model alone generated the outcome. All this casts a shadow on the "scientific" procedures employed by econometric modeling. Furthermore, one should not forget the suspect quality of the data out of which econometric models are constructed. In short, econometric models are nothing more than glorified play. On this Mises said,

As a method of economic analysis econometrics is a childish play with figures that does not contribute anything to the elucidation of the problems of economic reality.[3]
Conclusion
Rather than viewing econometric models as a sophisticated technique that can discover the hidden truth about the economy, we should regard them as clumsy and expensive extrapolative devices, which have nothing in common with reality. Anyone who decides to use models as an analytical tool or a forecasting device runs the risk of seriously confusing himself.
 
 
jbsay
01:03 / 07.12.04
Excerpts from mises blog


December 02, 2004
Restoring a city's "soul" through redistribution of wealth
by S.M. Oliva
One of the biggest obstacles free market supporters face is the unwillingness of many people to accept the reciprocity of individual rights—that is, your rights can meaningfully exist only if you recognize that everyone else has the same rights. Reciprocity is a hard sell because people tend to believe that other people’s subjective preferences are “wrong”, while their own subjective preferences are absolute truyh. In the economic sphere, this means that when a person decides something should be a priority, then everyone should support it, even if it requires the coercive apparatus of the state.

...

This is yet another variant of the “public interest” argument that every demand for state intervention relies upon. It is the most basic rejection of individual rights possible; I want something, so everyone else should want it, and therefore the “public” needs to give it to me. When the columnist says “generations of politicians . . . have spent millions of dollars,” he is deliberately misrepresenting the situation. Politicians have confiscated wealth from individuals, via taxation, and used the funds to curry favor with baseball owners. It is not an exercise in soul-building, but wealth redistribution.
 
 
No star here laces
04:58 / 07.12.04
This certainly is a fascinating thread, but I feel we should move the debate on a little.

Jah is making a lot of interesting points, I think, but is unfortunately fixated on "socialism" as the enemy, and therefore paints every argument against him in socialist colours.

On the flip a lot of other people seem to be trying to say that there is nothing good about market forces (which is wrong) as opposed to saying that market forces do not solve everything (which is right).

It is transparently obvious that as far as economics and government is concerned we are not dealing with a simple binary of "capitalism vs socialism" and that capitalism and socialism are not polar opposites. There are other options, even if they don't have names yet...

Personally, I feel that Jah is right in saying that socialism has fairly clear economic consequences, and that a lot of those consequences are not good. There is also a lot to be said for market forces as a principle to be harnessed by good government.

What I personally do not believe for an instant is that capitalism, either in its present form or in some utopian "pure" form is an ideal form of government.

This being for many reasons:

1) Accumulation of money (which will inevitably happen) leads to power imbalances which then prevent the "pure" system from working properly

2) The impossibility of the "pure" system due to the necessity of a judiciary and therefore the necessity to levy taxes to pay for it

3) The fact that although wealth will be created there will still be inequalities and inequalities lead to unhappiness

4) The fact that economics is predicated on a rational-choice model that does not accurately reflect how humans make decisions in the marketplace, as Daniel Kahnemann recently proved.

The question that interests me is, how can market forces be harnessed more effectively for the common good than they currently are under either capitalist or socialist principles? (and not under some spurious "third way" hybric either, obviously).
 
 
jbsay
12:29 / 07.12.04
Inmybeer

This is a general rant so don’t take it personally

Jah is making a lot of interesting points, I think, but is unfortunately fixated on "socialism" as the enemy, and therefore paints every argument against him in socialist colours.

No, I’m not “fixating” on “socialism as the enemy”. SOCIALISM IS THE BLOODY ENEMY. This can be shown theoretically, and history bears out THIS EXACT SAME CONCLUSION.

OK? And furthermore, since you have not yet grasped the FUNDAMENTALS of the debate, I don’t think we should get sidetracked just yet about the administrative details of a private property regime.


It is transparently obvious that as far as economics and government is concerned we are not dealing with a simple binary of "capitalism vs socialism" and that capitalism and socialism are not polar opposites. There are other options, even if they don't have names yet...

No. This is very, very VERY wrong. Capitalism and socialism ARE polar opposites. Private ownership of the means of production (market economy or capitalism) and public ownership of the means of production (socialism or communism or fascism or "planning") can be neatly distinguished. Each of these two systems of society's economic organization is open to a precise and unambiguous description and definition. They can never be confounded with one another; they cannot be mixed or combined; no gradual transition leads from one of them to the other; they are mutually incompatible. With regard to the same factors of production there can only exist private control or public control. Clear now?

Personally, I feel that Jah is right in saying that socialism has fairly clear economic consequences, and that a lot of those consequences are not good. There is also a lot to be said for market forces as a principle to be harnessed by good government. The question that interests me is, how can market forces be harnessed more effectively for the common good than they currently are under either capitalist or socialist principles? (and not under some spurious "third way" hybric either, obviously).

OK, statements like this make otherwise peaceful and law-abiding citizens (namely me) want to go out and arm themselves as heavily as possible with automatic shotguns and ammo to protect myself from the ill effects of your ignorance and/or stupidity.

Let’s be very clear here. There is no such thing as a market force. It is a euphemism, and a concept of limited utility (Ditto for “the common good”. Who is “the common good”? Who decides what the common good is? You?). Whoever coined the term “market force” was trying to make social science into a natural science, and should have his tongue cut out for confusing the issue for you socialists. Maybe they were trying to make economics more respectable, who knows, but we are NOT dealing with gravity here. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS.

We are dealing with the decisions made by free individuals OF THEIR OWN CHOICE. So when you say things like “harness market forces more effectively for the common good”, what you are REALLY saying is that you want to harness individuals, and when you say you want to harness individuals, I start thinking that sooner or later you want to harness ME. And I don’t like being harnesses. Let’s be very clear on this. This means that you are a potential dictator and a tyrant, and you are an advocate of slavery. You think that your personal concept of “common good” is better than the result that can be accomplished by free individuals acting of their own volition. So not only are you evil (you are pro-slavery), but you are stupid as well since putting me into slavery WILL STILL NOT LET YOU ACHIEVE YOUR “common good” ideals (as proved by Mises).

Why do you think the way you do? Maybe you are not in control of your own life and therefore need to control others. Maybe you genuinely want to help people but are too ignorant to see why “helping” them by force is wrong. I would suggest that you read the Tao, for starters (the first paragraph will also conveniently help you with the use of words and euphemisms---the word is not the thing that it is describing, the tao that can be spoken and so forth). [side note…someone should start a thread comparing/contrasting Taoism with capitalism].

You socialists are fond of saying that “what goes on between two consenting adults is none of your business” (e.g., regarding homosexuality). This is fine. I couldn’t agree more. But the problem is that you do not then reciprocate (most notably, to people trying to trade with one another). Outside of the bedroom, you have no problem ordering people around and invading their privacy by telling them how to act/buy/transact such that the “common good” (as per YOUR individual ideal, not theirs) is achieved. Very, very, very hypocritical.

So, until you understand what is involved here, go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on with the rest of the loony socialists who have expounded these idiotic principles and caused such incredible carnage over the past couple of centuries. And while you’re at it, you should probably channel the ghosts of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dead people who have suffered death, misery, poverty, and starvation at the hands of people like you who were “only trying to help”, then explain the issues involved to them, then ask them if they really wanted your “help”, and apologize individually to each of them.

So why the guns? Your socialist philosophy means that sooner or later you are going to get around to telling me what to do with my life, or some other of my property, or trying out some insanely stupid social engineering theory on me, which means that I am your slave. And if you want to get me all fired up, try and make me your slave. And even if you DON’T tell me what to do, the angry peasants with pitchforks and torches that are miserable as a result of your lack of understanding of very simple concepts, which has made them poor and hungry, will come to burn my house down mistakenly blaming ME since I am an evil “capitalist”. This is why when people say stupid shit like this, I cringe and want to go get a gun license.

What I personally do not believe for an instant is that capitalism, either in its present form or in some utopian "pure" form is an ideal form of government.
Capitalism is not a form of government. That’s the whole point. Maximizing INDIVIDUAL freedom.

This being for many reasons:

1) Accumulation of money (which will inevitably happen) leads to power imbalances which then prevent the "pure" system from working properly

No, this a common Marxist/socialist misconception. It will not inevitably happen. Again, wealth is constantly being created and destroyed and moved around, depending on the will of individual humans acting in their own best interest. If you are rich and don’t do a good job of serving consumers interests you will go bankrupt. If you are poor and do a good job of serving consumers interests then you will become rich. And so on and so forth.

2) The impossibility of the "pure" system due to the necessity of a judiciary and therefore the necessity to levy taxes to pay for it
Don’t get sidetracked on administrative detail of minimizing government—that is a side debate that doesn’t interest me particularly. Other people have suggesting ways without taxing and judiciaries. This is not the core debate.

The whole point is to limit the destructiveness of government, not to “harness” the “market forces”. You’re going about the whole thing backwards.


3) The fact that although wealth will be created there will still be inequalities and inequalities lead to unhappiness

Life is unfair. Do you think that I’m happy working as a slave for half the year so I can support a useless government beaurocrat and someone in south America I’ve never met? Is that fair? Is that equal? How come he isn’t supporting me? Again, economically this is irrelevant, because YOUR SOCIALIST METHOD WILL NOT WORK.


4) The fact that economics is predicated on a rational-choice model that does not accurately reflect how humans make decisions in the marketplace, as Daniel Kahnemann recently proved.
No. Austrians don’t believe in the rational choice model (at least not the way you’re thinking about it). You are confusing schools of economics. They simply assert that humans are conscious (loosely termed rational) and that they act. Not that their actions have any sort of objective “rationality” as per the rational-choice school.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:05 / 07.12.04
Jah: If you can't maintain some sort of civil discourse, you are probably not emotionally mature enough to discuss these big issues. Why would anyone want to bother listening to you, much less taking your apparently inescapably correct and yet strangely marginalised theory on board, if you have no rational response to criticism but abuse?
 
 
jbsay
13:26 / 07.12.04
Tann--

Know you're trying to moderate, but if you read my responses you will note that, hidden in between sarcasm and "abuse", I include all the pertinent rational responses necessary to destroy the socialist part of the debate. I also clearly define my terms and concepts. Don't confuse me being a wiseass to get my point across with the point being incorrect.

I would now turn the issue onto YOU. None of the socialists (on this board or elsewhere) have made a rational case. The fundamental issue is this. I have shown why economic calculation is impossible under socialism and that socialism cannot achieve its intended goals. The burden of proof is now on the other side to show how they can get around this problem.

p.s. I am not forcing any one to read my posts, you're reading this thread by choice and for your entertainment purposes. You can hit the ignore button and not see my posts if that makes you happy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 07.12.04
a) You are not being a wiseass, you're being rude. A wiseass employs *wit*. You have no recourse but to abuse. As I say, it suggests you are not emotionally competent to handle a discussion. Basically, you sound like you're overexcited.
b) Regrettably, moderation makes the ignore button very difficult to use.
c) You keep calling everyone who disagrees with you a socialist. I do not think it means what you think it means.
d) Your "proof" so far primarily inheres in:
 
 
jbsay
13:35 / 07.12.04
No, I have very clearly defined my terms. I define Socialism as public ownership/control of the means of production. I define a Socialist as someone who who believes in socialism.
 
 
MJ-12
13:36 / 07.12.04
Hmmmmn. You seem to suggest that your critics are behaving irrationally, but base, at least in part, your defense of unfettered capitalism, on people behaving rationally. Does anyone else see a problem here?
 
 
jbsay
13:39 / 07.12.04
Hmmmmn. You seem to suggest that your critics are behaving irrationally, but base, at least in part, your defense of unfettered capitalism, on people behaving rationally. Does anyone else see a problem here?

My defense of capitalism has nothing to with people behaving rationally (as understood by rational choice school etc). In fact, I think that most people behave irrationally. I'm simply saying that one CAN use one's mind and reason to prove/discover truths and compare alternatives, not that every individual is "rational" in the mainstream economists definition of the word.
 
 
MJ-12
13:43 / 07.12.04
So, we can pretty much shitcan this, then?

Again, wealth is constantly being created and destroyed and moved around, depending on the will of individual humans acting in their own best interest
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:46 / 07.12.04
Capitalism and socialism ARE polar opposites. Private ownership of the means of production (market economy or capitalism) and public ownership of the means of production (socialism or communism or fascism or "planning") can be neatly distinguished

I'm sorry but you can't lump fascism, communism and socialism together in that way. They bear very little resemblance to each other, they can't all be the polar opposite of capitalism when they're socially very different. And your argument does appear to be social and not financial.

And you know when you rant about individual freedom so avidly, it just sounds like you never learnt to share.
 
 
jbsay
13:47 / 07.12.04
No. There is no "objective" rationality behind their choices. Each individual is conscious and acts. To disagree with this statement is to prove that the statement is correct. Disagreeing is an action.

An individual's action might be suicide. That would not be "rational", but it would be an action.
 
 
jbsay
13:53 / 07.12.04
Anna--

I can and will lump fascism, communism, and socialism together. They all put ownership and control of the means of production in the hands of the public. They control the means of production in different ways, but at its core they are all the same. For more on this, I would suggest you read Mises' Socialism, in particular the section that discusses all the various subpopulations of socialism.

And you know when you rant about individual freedom so avidly, it just sounds like you never learnt to share.
I share with my girlfriend. I share with my brother. I share with my friends. The problem is not sharing. the problem is STEALING. I share with my family and friends by MY CHOICE. I give to charities the amount I CHOOSE, and to those charities that I CHOOSE TO SUPPORT. You have no right to decide what I should do with my property. It is morally right to give charity. It is NOT morally right to use the coercive apparatus of the state (basically at gunpoint) to force me to give to YOUR favorite charity. Particularly, since this is hypocritical. Have you really given all that you can? Do you have any luxury items? Who are you to decide how much is "enough" that you should give, versus how much *I* should give. Hm? But again, those are moral issues, and not directly relevant. The issue is that redistributing wealth (public ownership) will not achieve your goals.
 
 
MJ-12
13:59 / 07.12.04
That's a fairly...original...definition of self-interest.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on how there are no intermediates between total public ownership and total private ownership.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:01 / 07.12.04
"Leap 2: This Time It's PROVEN."
 
 
MJ-12
14:03 / 07.12.04
Flyboy, you just need some EDUCATION. Or nanobots.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:06 / 07.12.04
Jah, you are a very naive person. How do you control these charities that it's morally right to give to, how do you make sure children are not abused in orphanages? Charities shouldn't even need to exist, they only show us the failure of our social system. How do you even make sure money is spent on the people that need it the most? All I hear from you is money, money, me, me, me. No concern for people that you don't know.

I DO have a right to decide what to do with your property because it's all made by other people anyway. You're not the first person or the last to own most of your things. We don't possess in that way, we don't have the right to claim anything as solely our own and we never will. All the houses and flats you will ever live in are only on loan to you and your money- you make it while taking it out of the pocket of a cleaner and you think that the cleaner has free will and individual choice? Or the same amount of choice as you or me or anyone else who lives comfortably in this world? And THAT is the problem that you don't want to address.
 
 
jbsay
14:06 / 07.12.04
As for self-interest. It's taking the argument slightly out of context. So let me be clear. All I'm saying is that humans act. You can ignore the self-interest part if it confuses the issue (basically, their goal is to kill themselves, so the act of suicide is in their best interest, and they act to achieve their goal). Clearer?
 
 
MJ-12
14:08 / 07.12.04
Right. As long as there is the potential threat of death by starvation, hypothermia, or easily treatable conditions, there are no truly voluntary transactions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:08 / 07.12.04
a) You are not being a wiseass, you're being childish and rude. A wiseass employs *wit*. You have no recourse but to abuse. As I say, it suggests you are not emotionally competent to handle a discussion. Basically, you sound like you're overexcited.
b) Regrettably, moderation makes the ignore button very difficult to use.
c) You keep calling everyone who disagrees with you a socialist. I do not think it means what you think it means.
d) Your "proof" so far primarily inheres in a) telling people that the Austrian school has categorically proven x, in the teeth of the fact that many economists still cleave to other opinions, b) saying that any position opposed to yours is "socialist", as if in doing so you have de facto demonstrated its inadmissability. Neither is correct or c) suggesting that anyone holding any view other than yours must not have studied the situation as deeply as you, including, of course, all those economists not cleaving to the Frankfurt School. Your refutations are reductive and unconvincing.

So:


No, I’m not “fixating” on “socialism as the enemy”. SOCIALISM IS THE BLOODY ENEMY. This can be shown theoretically, and history bears out THIS EXACT SAME CONCLUSION.


Nope. Your view of history, in which in 5-10 years the economy falls apart because nobody listens to you, bears out this conclusion. you are confusing "history" with "fantasy" and "opinion" with "fact". Your statement has no weight.


OK? And furthermore, since you have not yet grasped the FUNDAMENTALS of the debate, I don’t think we should get sidetracked just yet about the administrative details of a private property regime.

Grasping the FUNDAMENTALS here seems to mean "agree with me". Again, the statement has no weight - it's a subjective opinion of what characterises an adequate understanding of these FUNDAMENTALS. For you, entry-level is agreeing with you.

No. This is very, very VERY wrong. Capitalism and socialism ARE polar opposites. Private ownership of the means of production (market economy or capitalism) and public ownership of the means of production (socialism or communism or fascism or "planning") can be neatly distinguished. Each of these two systems of society's economic organization is open to a precise and unambiguous description and definition. They can never be confounded with one another; they cannot be mixed or combined; no gradual transition leads from one of them to the other; they are mutually incompatible. With regard to the same factors of production there can only exist private control or public control. Clear now?

Except that you have already admitted a) that every model currently used in the real world is a combination of what you call capitalist and socialist elements, although you put them all ultimately in the "socialist" bag, and b) that your ideal capitalist utopia actually *still* has elements of central control, central bodies, de facto taxation - you have failed to establish any way in which a pure capitalist society could function, and in the polarised terms of your argument have thus accepted the necessity of a socialist system.

OK, statements like this make otherwise peaceful and law-abiding citizens (namely me) want to go out and arm themselves as heavily as possible with automatic shotguns and ammo to protect myself from the ill effects of your ignorance and/or stupidity.

Blah. Nothing worthwhile is said in this paragraph.

Let’s be very clear here. There is no such thing as a market force. It is a euphemism, and a concept of limited utility (Ditto for “the common good”. Who is “the common good”? Who decides what the common good is? You?). Whoever coined the term “market force” was trying to make social science into a natural science, and should have his tongue cut out for confusing the issue for you socialists. Maybe they were trying to make economics more respectable, who knows, but we are NOT dealing with gravity here. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS.

More abuse, less incentive to listen to you. If the paragraph actually contained some explanation of the shouted part at the end it might have value.

We are dealing with the decisions made by free individuals OF THEIR OWN CHOICE. So when you say things like “harness market forces more effectively for the common good”, what you are REALLY saying is that you want to harness individuals, and when you say you want to harness individuals, I start thinking that sooner or later you want to harness ME. And I don’t like being harnesses. Let’s be very clear on this. This means that you are a potential dictator and a tyrant, and you are an advocate of slavery.

It is rare that one practises a reduction ad absurdum on oneself. This is wild, lunatic extrapolation and, again, of no real consequence.

You think that your personal concept of “common good” is better than the result that can be accomplished by free individuals acting of their own volition. So not only are you evil (you are pro-slavery), but you are stupid as well since putting me into slavery WILL STILL NOT LET YOU ACHIEVE YOUR “common good” ideals (as proved by Mises).

Oh, well, if Mises said it... so far an awful lot of your argument has essnetally read "Mises said (copy and paste), so it must be true. I trust I shall hear no more dissent. It's weak, and suggests you lack the chops actually to*argue*.

Why do you think the way you do? Maybe you are not in control of your own life and therefore need to control others. Maybe you genuinely want to help people but are too ignorant to see why “helping” them by force is wrong. I would suggest that you read the Tao, for starters (the first paragraph will also conveniently help you with the use of words and euphemisms---the word is not the thing that it is describing, the tao that can be spoken and so forth). [side note…someone should start a thread comparing/contrasting Taoism with capitalism].

Bored now. More ad hominem nonsense, and still no proof or substantiation of any point made in the entire post.


You socialists are fond of saying that “what goes on between two consenting adults is none of your business” (e.g., regarding homosexuality).

Oh good - a mad ramble off. Marvellous.

This is fine. I couldn’t agree more. But the problem is that you do not then reciprocate (most notably, to people trying to trade with one another). Outside of the bedroom, you have no problem ordering people around and invading their privacy by telling them how to act/buy/transact such that the “common good” (as per YOUR individual ideal, not theirs) is achieved. Very, very, very hypocritical.

Since you have already admitted above that a capitalist society would require law, law enforcement, regulation, de facto taxation, this accusation rings rather hollow. You mean you have an acceptable *level* of control, but you still see a need to "order people around" in the interests of a doctrinaire viewpoint (that the right to property is the highest human right).

So, until you understand what is involved here, go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on with the rest of the loony socialists who have expounded these idiotic principles and caused such incredible carnage over the past couple of centuries.

More tiresome abuse, and we're still waiting for a single comprehensible, well-argued point. Of course, the Austrian school has not "caused incredible carnage"- because they have never been trusted with the mechanisms of power. You are again treating as history what is fantasy.

And while you’re at it, you should probably channel the ghosts of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dead people who have suffered death, misery, poverty, and starvation at the hands of people like you who were “only trying to help”, then explain the issues involved to them, then ask them if they really wanted your “help”, and apologize individually to each of them.

Again, nothing of worth here.

So why the guns? Your socialist philosophy means that sooner or later you are going to get around to telling me what to do with my life, or some other of my property, or trying out some insanely stupid social engineering theory on me, which means that I am your slave. And if you want to get me all fired up, try and make me your slave. And even if you DON’T tell me what to do, the angry peasants with pitchforks and torches that are miserable as a result of your lack of understanding of very simple concepts, which has made them poor and hungry, will come to burn my house down mistakenly blaming ME since I am an evil “capitalist”. This is why when people say stupid shit like this, I cringe and want to go get a gun license.

Yes, but you pay your taxes, don't you? Ergo, you are already a slave, and a hypocrite. This is where your ad hominem ends up defeating itself. While you pay taxes, use publicly-maintained roads, obey laws, you are a toadying slave to socialism. Also, once morem you are treating your Libertarian equivalent of the Rapture as if it has already happened. It has not.

Capitalism is not a form of government. That’s the whole point. Maximizing INDIVIDUAL freedom.

Fair enough. But you have already told us that your capitalist system needs regulation, so not particularly useful.

This being for many reasons:

No, this a common Marxist/socialist misconception. It will not inevitably happen. Again, wealth is constantly being created and destroyed and moved around, depending on the will of individual humans acting in their own best interest. If you are rich and don’t do a good job of serving consumers interests you will go bankrupt. If you are poor and do a good job of serving consumers interests then you will become rich. And so on and so forth.

This, too, will not inevitably happen.

Don’t get sidetracked on administrative detail of minimizing government—that is a side debate that doesn’t interest me particularly. Other people have suggesting ways without taxing and judiciaries. This is not the core debate.

It may not interest you, but it is pretty key. Obviously, you will claim not to be interested in it, because it undermines totally your argument for pure capitalism - you still need bodies placed in power over you to ensure you respect private property and other people respect yours. Some would say that you *want* to be a slave.

The whole point is to limit the destructiveness of government, not to “harness” the “market forces”. You’re going about the whole thing backwards.

So how would we... oh. That's it. Ah well.

Life is unfair. Do you think that I’m happy working as a slave for half the year so I can support a useless government beaurocrat and someone in south America I’ve never met?

As it turns out, yes. It seems you are. You just don't like the fit of this particular collar...

Is that fair? Is that equal? How come he isn’t supporting me? Again, economically this is irrelevant, because YOUR SOCIALIST METHOD WILL NOT WORK.

Te tum,. If capital letters were unstoppable, the Roman Empire would never have fallen. You are again representing speculation as fact.


No. Austrians don’t believe in the rational choice model (at least not the way you’re thinking about it). You are confusing schools of economics. They simply assert that humans are conscious (loosely termed rational) and that they act. Not that their actions have any sort of objective “rationality” as per the rational-choice school.

Ah-hah. This is a huge gap in your argumentation. You claim that we are talking about individuals, but you need people to behave as one in order to make your model of a) "socialist" apocalypse certain and b) capitalist utopianism workable. At the heart of your argument you have to represent people as simultaneously capital-handling individuals and as an undifferentiated mass who, provided with pure capitalism will LIVE IN PLENTY and if kept in socialist slavery will BURN, BURN AND DIE.

In essence, you don't _have_ an argument in this post. You have a few unproven assertions hung on a future vision that you have yet to demonstrate conclusively is inescapable (and if you can do this, might I suggest doing it to the UN?), tacked ineptly onto a lot of shouting and insults. I don't know why Leaptopians can't handle intelligent conversation, but there we go. Does this form of proselytising ever work?
 
 
jbsay
14:09 / 07.12.04
Fine. Let's say for the sake of argument that I have a hypothesis and not a proof. The issue remains. I have a working hypothesis that shows why your way will not work. Your role in the debate is to explain to me why this hypothesis is false. How will you allocate resources without private property and the price system?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:11 / 07.12.04
Going back to where I left off last night...

But surely since any form of public ownership is socialism, your small tax to protect private property rights is in theory just as socialist as anything else? Surely the only logical position for you to hold would be for there to be no such protection whatsoever. I don't see how you maintain a distinction between 'government that protects private property' and 'government which controls property', when the mechanism by which it does so is the same.

If there's no protection, as we've discussed, there's no guarantee of the inviolability of private property; and if people of their own free will form coalitions to protect their property, people who do not agree to that system will be left out of it and their property will remain vulnerable.

You can say that you think your system would be preferable to any other, but I don't think you are justified in being so dogmatic about it (especially since you have agreed that it requires some element of 'socialism' in order to function).
 
 
jbsay
14:18 / 07.12.04
Ok, Tann. No wise-ass abuse this time, since you get distracted easily. I'm going to make this incredibly simple for you. You are advocating a top-down regulatory environment (maximizing the role of government). I am advocating a bottoms-up process (minimizing the role of government). You are advocating the MAJORITY of ownership of property be in the hands of the public. I am pointing out that the price system arises out of private property exchanges, and is the key to calculation of profit and loss and therefore the allocation of scarce resources. Capitalism is an economic system planned by the combined, efforts of all who participate in it. Economic planning requires the free cooperation of all who participate in the economic system.

So let's not get bogged down in the "pure capitalism" versus "pure socialism" side track. We both know that you are advocating as much control as possible (majority) on the public side, whereas I am advocating the majority of control on the private side. I am saying that the more the public controls the means of production, the less your ability to allocate resources to meet your goals. E.g., you'll have a surplus of shoes but a shortage of food.
 
 
Sir Real
14:20 / 07.12.04
Who ever said that economics can't be wildly amusing? This guy reminds me of the Fletch.

(Sorry for the rot; please continue.)
 
  

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