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What's so good about Market Forces, anyway?

 
  

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jbsay
13:35 / 06.12.04
Pin wrote:

But it isn't the best because it arbitarily leaves out people who will not interact with it, and their reasons for this are not something you can make a value call on.
The same argument could be made about socialism. I dont like people telling me what to do with my property, whether it is my life or my money. I don't like people stealing money from me. Whether by taxes or inflation. And I can't opt out of that. Again, its irrelevant to the core issue which is that a) since we do not live in the garden of eden, we have scarce resources b) since resources are scare we need to figure out how to allocate them and c) socialism is an impossible way to allocate resources.


Meritocracies are incredably exclusionary, in ways both outlined in 'laces post above, and other ways besides. Again, you are reducing all people to a single sliding scale of ability, which was my cahrge laid at economics above adn which you haven't delt with.And even if the shitty janitor wins the competition, what if he can't live on the wages he won, but has no choice because it's better then living off nothing at all and the only alternative now that you've taken away the welfare state is the sporadic, undependable and moralising charity of others, who took away the welfare state because it was harming the precious precious souls.

What does this mean? The point is that because of the free market (and despite government attempts to hinder it) poor people today have better clothes, shelter, transportation, and medical care (etc) than kings did 400 years ago. BECAUSE of government manipulation of money however (printing money) costs keep rising and people are getting squeezed. Tell your retarded socialist governments to knock it off, and don't blame this state of affairs on capitalism. Prices are going up because your money is worth less because of their actions. We told you not to fuck with the money supply. Every idiot government in the history of the world that debases their currency collapses. And THEN how do your poor people make out? hm? Are they happy then?


And what if the only reason the janitor had to settle for such low wages was because he did not feel he was capable working within companies that had business practises he didn't agree with. What if he was the only person in his polity to disagree with fur-farming? Or child brothels? Market forces say these things are good, adn so they must be good, and so choosing not to work there must mean he is bad, and he has made a concious decision to not live with enough food to eat because he has rationally weighed up the pros and cons of his own morality against his own physical well-being.

You are babbling. Market forces do not place value judgments. There is no such thing as a "market force". The market is simply the result of individual humans acting on THEIR OWN PARTICULAR SUBJECTIVE value judgments. In the speak of complexity theory, the market "emerges" from the collective actions of individuals. The market simply shows the result of democratic action (people voting with to participate or abstain in trascations). It means you cant tell people what to do with their property. Sometimes you will agree with what they are doing, sometimes you wont. I may not AGREE with the fact that my next door neighbor is a gay guy banging another guy, i may feel it morally "wrong" (personally, I dont care), but I can't do antyhing about it because it's on his property. And so on.

How can you demand someone make that choice? (This is a question for jah and 'laces, because it seems to be touching on what the later said about maritocracy, as noted above).
How can you demand that I give you my property (whether it is my money or my life)? Want to bang my girlfriend while you're at it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:35 / 06.12.04
But would it? The moment you put bureaucracy back into it, how do you prevent Union Carbide (which has large resources and would lose many of those resources if forced to compensate) from employing its own counter-bureacrats as a means of preventing the people of Bhopal (who have comparatively limited resources) from successfully receiving compensation, on the calculation that the capex and operational expenditure of defraying compensation until the deaths of the victims was less deleterious to the health of the company than a settlement? That is, once you put back in a corporate bureaucracy, presumably sustained by contributions from the creators of capital and thus ultimately a cost upon transactions, how does this pure capitalist world differ from a "socialist" world in which regulations are enforced by regulatory bodies backed by national governments? Essentially, you are arguing for a socialist system (by your lights) which just happens to have a free market. There's a lot to be said for this - it will remove tariffs on third-world goods, for starters, but state control is constantly sneaking in through the back door to fill the gaps of the model.

More generally, might I suggest:

a) You stop telling people who disagree with you that they would agree with you if only they had studied the subject in more depth? The fact that "leftie" economics is taught by experienced academic economists rather lends the lie to this, even if it is only because they are not clever like what you are.

b) Making unsubstantiated and irrelevant statements like "Keynes was a pedophile buggerer" (the noun, incidentally, is "bugger", unless you mean he buggered pedophiles).

c) Insisting that the Austrian school has solved all these problems. If they had, we would be living in a capitalist utopia. They merely proposed solutions.

These are only suggestions, of course.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:39 / 06.12.04
Oh dear. Jah, calm down. All you are doing right now is suggesting that the Austrian school is followed by people who have grasped four or five central tenets and then lose their shit when questioned. Not the mark of a mature argument. Let's try to leave pedophilia, retardation and your girlfriend out of it, shall we?
 
 
jbsay
13:52 / 06.12.04
Tannhauser--I'm very calm. I'm also a bit of a wiseass tho.

http://www.users.muohio.edu/shermalw/honors_2001_fall/honors_papers_2000/arling.html
The big difference is in what the bureaucracy does. If it is entirely limited to protecting private property, and is paid for by a head tax, then the damage is limited. If it is a gigantic cancerous government, like we have in the US now, that involves itself in every facet of people's personal and business matters, then it has overstepped its bounds. It would be nice if everyone could get along without having some form of property protection and law enforcement, but people are people so you probably need some (VERY limited by charter) form of government.

a) just because a lot of people believe something don't make it so. for instance, if you eat right, stay in shape, quit drinking, and live for a while (say, 5-10 years) you'll see first hand how well the mainstream academics understand economics when the financial system collapses. just like every one that has followed in this path in the past has done. p.s. i also teach part-time graduate economics/investing, so i have a pretty good understanding of what goes on in the academic world

b) i said upfront that it was a gratuitious ad hominem attack, as per pin's earlier comment about the capitalists. As for Keynes, what about his strange introduction to the 1936 German translation of General Theory, where he writes that his approach to economic policy is much better suited to a totalitarian state such as that run by the Nazis than, for instance, to Britain? hm? Also, i believe that you can use the term buggerer http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=DjM.

Keynes' homosexuality played a large if not controversial role in his development to becoming a creative genius. Freud believed that homosexuals are more creative, and states that "homosexuals often possessed unusual intelligence, spiritual insight, or artistic gifts, and that homosexuals of both sexes often have such strong constitutions that they are able to sublimate frustrated sexuality into artistic expression." (Hession 105) Although this statement is controversial, there is little doubt that his sexual orientation played a large role in Maynard's life. He was a known homosexual in a time when homosexuals were being persecuted. He was willing to take the risk of pursuing unconventional relationships which perhaps made him more willing to pursue his unconventional ideas. Maynard's homosexuality is one form of marginality in Keynes' life. He was always considered to be on the outside or different. However, taking risks, whether it be in his non-conformist relationships or in ideas was never an issue for Keynes. He had been a risk taker since his childhood. It was a characteristic that he developed very early on and retained through adulthood as his illicit liaisons prove.

c) this statement is incongruous. if you come up with a theory and the mass of people ignores it, then it will not lead to a utopia, for instance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:55 / 06.12.04
...and thus, you will not have solved the problem. Precisely.
 
 
jbsay
13:55 / 06.12.04
Keynes proclaims Soviet Communism to be a book "which every serious citizen will do well to look into":

Until recently events in Russia were moving too fast and the gap between paper professions and actual achievements was too wide for a proper account to be possible. But the new system is now sufficiently crystallized to be reviewed. The result is impressive. The Russian innovators have passed, not only from the revolutionary stage, but also from the doctrinaire stage.

There is little or nothing left which bears any special relation to Marx and Marxism as distinguished from other systems of socialism. They are engaged in the vast administrative task of making a completely new set of social and economic institutions work smoothly and successfully over a territory so extensive that it covers one-sixth of the land surface of the world. Methods are still changing rapidly in response to experience. The largest scale empiricism and experimentalism which has ever been attempted by disinterested administrators is in operation. Meanwhile the Webbs have enabled us to see the direction in which things appear to be moving and how far they have got.

Britain, Keynes feels, has much to learn from the Webbs' work:

It leaves me with a strong desire and hope that we in this country may discover how to combine an unlimited readiness to experiment with changes in political and economic methods and institutions, whilst preserving traditionalism and a sort of careful conservatism, thrifty of everything which has human experience behind it, in every branch of feeling and of action.

Note, incidentally, the backtracking and studied inconsistency typical of much of Keynes's social philosophizing--an "unlimited readiness to experiment" is to be combined with "traditionalism" and "careful conservatism."
 
 
jbsay
13:57 / 06.12.04
Tann-

There is a difference between solving a problem and having it put into action. If Newton solved F=ma, and no one understood it (and therefore no contraptions were based on it), doesnt mean that the theoretical problem wasn't solved.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:10 / 06.12.04
More generally, could you indicate where you are quoting? This is usually done by putting quotes in bold or italics - there is a guide to how to do this here.

"Keynes is a Nazi" is about as useful a criticism as "Keynes is a paedophile". Neither is supported so far by your sources. I would suggest moving off. Also, being a homosexual is not generally considered a bad thing around here, whether or not one combines it with a love of command economies.

Anyway, back on topic... I just don't see what the difference is, in your formulation, between a society with a market but also with a government and the states you are idenitfying as socialist. Are you saying that government has to exist or a free market cannot function? If so, does that not mean that those of the Austrian School arguing for anarchism have failed to solve the problem, because their position does not match your view of the ideal (achievable) capitalist society?

I'm confused. I'm also wondering where national defence comes from - would we instead have private armies held by the corporations, and paid for by an extra penny on their products? This seems like we are moving into a model where de facto taxation is offered at the point of sale rather than the point before the paycheque arrives, but it remains taxation. Of course, a company could abolish its army and use the saving to make its product more competitive, but in that case what would stop another company using its own military power against that company? Good manners? The only thing I can see is, again, a regulatory force charged with preventing such things, possibly by having its own military force and using it as a deterrent to the corporations seeking to secure advantage through military action... of course, at that point, somebody has to pay for this army of deterrence, and again the costs go down to the consumer...

Open question: is there a way to abolish all regulation - that is, if capitalism is a moral imperative will it further compel its practitioners to act morally, and if so according to what morality?
 
 
jbsay
14:28 / 06.12.04
Tann,

Sorry. I'm a little lazy with the quotations and plagiarizing. Will use italics from now on.

you wrote

"Keynes is a Nazi" is about as useful a criticism as "Keynes is a paedophile". Neither is supported so far by your sources. I would suggest moving off. Also, being a homosexual is not generally considered a bad thing around here, whether or not one combines it with a love of command economies.

agreed, as per my earlier point about the usefullness of ad hominem attacks in debates. it was a wiseass, off-tangent response to something pin said earlier. and again, nothing wrong with being homosexual any more than there is something wrong with being a white european protestant (pin's point was a rehashing of Marx's point that people think "along class lines" or something to that effect and that we need to consider that capitalism originated from white european protestants)

you wrote

Anyway, back on topic... I just don't see what the difference is, in your formulation, between a society with a market but also with a government and the states you are idenitfying as socialist. Are you saying that government has to exist or a free market cannot function? If so, does that not mean that those of the Austrian School arguing for anarchism have failed to solve the problem, because their position does not match your view of the ideal (achievable) capitalist society?

the big issue is to what extent is the government DEFENDING private property versus trampling on it. big difference. a system set in place to keep people from messing with other people's private property is not the same--intellectually or practically--as a system that tells people what to do with their property (via regulation, taxation, inflation, etc). Its a tricky issue, and i dont necessarily represent other libertarian/capitalists viewpoints in this matter. In a utopian world no one would interfere with other people's property rights and so this wouldnt be necessary. But there are thieves, killers, etc out there. So do need a very limited, decentralized government.

you wrote

I'm confused. I'm also wondering where national defence comes from - would we instead have private armies held by the corporations, and paid for by an extra penny on their products? This seems like we are moving into a model where de facto taxation is offered at the point of sale rather than the point before the paycheque arrives, but it remains taxation. Of course, a company could abolish its army and use the saving to make its product more competitive, but in that case what would stop another company using its own military power against that company? Good manners? The only thing I can see is, again, a regulatory force charged with preventing such things, possibly by having its own military force and using it as a deterrent to the corporations seeking to secure advantage through military action... of course, at that point, somebody has to pay for this army of deterrence, and again the costs go down to the consumer...



no quick way to answer this, and depending on what particularly system you are talking about the answer would vary. others have spent more time working this out than i have. but for starters, could have point-to-point decentralized army of deterrence (think Napster) where people could arm themselves and have localized (contracted) law enforcement. You should try to stop thinking about things in terms of corporations (betraying your socialist leanings) and think about them in terms of the INDIVIDUALS involved. Corporations are legal entities but not real--they dont eat, they dont sleep, etc. Just like "the public good" or "society". Useful as concepts, but the map is not the terrain.


Open question: is there a way to abolish all regulation - that is, if capitalism is a moral imperative will it further compel its practitioners to act morally, and if so according to what morality?

Personally, I think private property rights are the closest we can get to this, and allows for the widest range of individualistic morality (basically, as long as you're doing something on your property and not hurting anyone else or their property without their consent, your morals go). if you want to do drugs, so be it. have kinky sex, sure. hit your head againts the wall? knock yourself out. do i approve of all this? no. but it ain't none of my business what you do on your property.
 
 
jbsay
14:48 / 06.12.04
No offense to the gays (in my previous post), its just that in America gay marriage is a big issue right now. Basically, under private property rights, the gay marriage issue is a non-issue. The christian right can not keep a gay person from getting married if they so choose. And the christian right will then have nothing to complain about because the gay couple is not using marriage to get benefits from the welfare state (under private property, there is no welfare state so christians are not supporting something that they find morally reprehensible).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:50 / 06.12.04
(betraying your socialist leanings)

Are we dating? You seem to be rather interested in me, rather than the discussion. Remember that bit about ad hominem arguments?

So, help me out on the inviolability of property. Let's say I'm doing kinky drugs in my private property. My neighbour is not so liberal as you, so he invites me to dinner and, while I am on his property, kills me. First we need some sort of conclusion that this is in some way wrong. Let's say that it interferes both with my person, which is my property, and with my ability to consume. Does that override his right to do what he wants on his property? If not, who decides? How is that enforced?

I'm not seeing a gigantic difference between a social structure where law is made and administered by private companies, with the costs passed on to the consumer either as a utility bill or on other products, and a world where it is provided publicly. Choice? Would that be in terms of different sets of laws being offered by different entities - so, if I pay for a package with provider (a), it will enforce laws preventing people from trespassing on my property, and if my neighbour has the same package he will be protected fromn trespassing on mine. How about if the neighbour has a package with provider (b)? Will they attempt to stop provider (a) from protecting me from being killed? Or do all the providers have to sign up to a common code of conduct and promise to enforce it even over people who do/don't have packages with them. In that case, what's the difference between that and a government enforcing the law with its own police force?

Or, would it be choice in the sense that one could take a Greyhound out to another area with a different local enforcer more to one's taste? Only, one can do that now - by travelling to a different country. These are social rather than purely ecnomic principles, of course, but the society without government is going to have to deal with them, or else its workers will not work and its consumers will not consume...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:58 / 06.12.04
And the christian right will then have nothing to complain about because the gay couple is not using marriage to get benefits from the welfare state (under private property, there is no welfare state so christians are not supporting something that they find morally reprehensible).

You know, I don't think that is actually why the Christian right objects to gay men and lesbians marrying, which again I think is an issue that needs to be confronted - some motivations are not economic. Otherwise, the Christian Right would have to accept in principle the right of wealthy gay men and lesbians to marry.
 
 
Atyeo
15:00 / 06.12.04
Can I just interject and we establish a point that Lurid made earlier.

I have studied economics, not to jah's level, but I have a fair grip on the major concepts.

It is important to remember that economics is a 'social' science. Therefore, nothing has been or (in our lifetimes at least) will ever be 'proven'. To suggest that Marx is fundamentally wrong or that something has been proven is clearly rubbish.

End of story.

I don't mean to stifle the debate, however. Watching this debate is helping me deal with the last few boring hours of Monday work.
 
 
jbsay
15:06 / 06.12.04
Tann--

Not that I know of, my girlfriend would be jealous. My point is that you think of capitalism the way a socialist would, and that confuses your understanding of the issue at hand. Again, a company is not real. It is a legal device. Companies don't make decisions or take action. The INDIVIDUALS who run the companies do.

I wrote
basically, as long as you're doing something on your property and not hurting anyone else or their property without their consent, your morals go

Your life is your property. I cannot take your life, even on my property, without your consent. Just like I cannot mug you of your property while I am on my property. It depends on who the rightful (not to open up a can of worms here--this is a whole nother side-debate) owner is--that person can dispose of his property as he/she wishes. If you ask Dr. Death to kill you however because you are in pain, then that is your business.

You wrote:

'm not seeing a gigantic difference between a social structure where law is made and administered by private companies, with the costs passed on to the consumer either as a utility bill or on other products, and a world where it is provided publicly. Choice? Would that be in terms of different sets of laws being offered by different entities - so, if I pay for a package with provider (a), it will enforce laws preventing people from trespassing on my property, and if my neighbour has the same package he will be protected fromn trespassing on mine. How about if the neighbour has a package with provider (b)? Will they attempt to stop provider (a) from protecting me from being killed? Or do all the providers have to sign up to a common code of conduct and promise to enforce it even over people who do/don't have packages with them. In that case, what's the difference between that and a government enforcing the law with its own police force?


Again, corporations are not making laws. There is no such thing as a corporation. The basic, inviolable law is that INDIVIDUALS HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVATE PROPERTY. Corporations have nothing to do with this. This is an individual matter.

The issue is that by definition, in a capitalist environment, when 2 individuals (or an individual and a corporation, for example) freely make a transaction, they are both individually better off (the pie is larger).

from today's article on the Mises.org site
Trade is a positive-sum game. Because happiness is ultimately subjective, it makes no sense to ask which party benefits (and which loses) from a voluntary exchange; both parties benefit. When the farmer hires Johnny to paint his barn for $40, both are better off; the farmer values a painted barn over his $40, and Johnny values the $40 more than an afternoon of leisure.

It would be impossible to provide a comprehensive response to every hypothetical problem with allowing the cash-for-paint deal to unfold. But what I wish to point out is that all such objections must overcome the prima facie evidence that the deal is a good one: namely, that the two people most knowledgeable and most likely to be affected by the deal are the participants themselves. Any attempt to block their transaction would certainly disrupt the plans of the farmer and Johnny, since it was only their desire to trade in the first place that made it a matter of interest to concerned onlookers. (There's no point in preventing people from doing what they don't want to do anyway.)



Under socialism, you have to steal from one person to give to the other (the pie is the same size). Again, the "government" and the "public" have no money independent of what they steal from individuals. If the government could not tax, inflate, or issue debt, it would not exist.
 
 
jbsay
15:13 / 06.12.04
You are right that economics is a social science, and austrians disavow the "positivist" method of economics in the social sciences (see below). I disagree, however that it cannot be "proven" that Marx was wrong.

Not to get into an aside, but Misesian praxeology (the Austrian method of economics) rests its foundation on acting man: on the individual human being not as a stone or atom that “moves” in accordance with quantitatively determined physical laws, but who has internal purposes, goals or ends which he tries to achieve, and ideas about how to go about achieving them. The fundamental axiom is that human beings act, and the rest of the economics is all derived from this one simple observation. To disagree with this statement (that humans act) is to act, and therefore prove the statement correct.

In short, Mises, in contrast to the positivists, affirms the primary fact of human consciousness—of the mind of man which adopts goals and attempts to achieve them in action. The existence of such action is discovered by introspection as well as by seeing human beings in their activity. Since men use their free will to act in the world, their resulting behavior can never be codified into quantitative historical “laws.” Hence it is vain and misleading for economists to try to arrive at predictable statistical laws and correlations for human activity. Each event, each act, in human history is different and unique, the result of freely acting and interacting persons; hence, there can be no statistical predictions or “tests” of economic theories. This does NOT mean that you cannot objectively figure out what theories are correct and incorrect, however.
 
 
jbsay
15:23 / 06.12.04
Tann--
Depending on the christian arguing, either point would be correct. But the crucial point is that under private property, the gays cannot tell the christians they cant practice christianity, and the christians cannot tell the gays they cant practice homosexuality. Whereas, depending on who was the majority, either side could claim that under democracy the "will of the people" prevails (note that America was founded as a republic to prevent this stupidity from happening, but those friggin socialists keep changing what words mean). A democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Private property says that the wolves can NEVER vote to eat the sheep, because the sheep's life is his own property (and not the property of the State, or of "society", or any other "public good" bullshit).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:33 / 06.12.04
This is a very interesting thread.

Jah - I take it, form what you've said, that you are not in favour of the idea of 'corporate personhood', which, I understand, has been developed in recent years?

I want to hear more about your ideas on government as well - how would the limited government you envisage be created, for example, and if by a form of voting or other delegation of power from individuals to the government, how would this be any less objectionable than representative institutions which have a wider remit?
 
 
jbsay
15:43 / 06.12.04
Kit-Cat

Depends what you mean by corporate personhood. Corporations are useful from a legal point of view in that if liability is not limited, then entrepreuneurs lose an incentive to take risk. (e.g., if the company goes bankrupt, can creditors go after the CEO's assets?). I'm just saying, socialists think of everything in terms of "evil corporations" and "big business interests", and this is as misleading as talking about "market forces" or "the public good" or "the government".

Others have done way more work on how this should be organized than I have--for starters you can read Rothbard if you're interested. But the issue is that the current system is going to fail, probably in an incredibly dramatic fashion (hyperinflation/debt collapse/holocausts/etc), and probably in the not-so-distant future, and the issue is that most people (even well-meaning ones) will mistakenly blame "capitalism" and then repeat the same mistakes as the past, causing the same misery further along down the line.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:47 / 06.12.04
The basic, inviolable law is that INDIVIDUALS HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVATE PROPERTY

OK, that's cool. My question, however, was what happens when that right is violated? It may in this formulation by ethically inviolable, but it certainly isn't *physically* inviolable...

This is, oddly enough, exactly the opposite of the christian right problem. There, you're saying that the only possible objection the christian right can have is a _practical_ one. Here you seem to be saying that the _moral_ force of the prohibition against interefering with somebody else's private property will supercede the need for enforcement of that law...

the gays cannot tell the christians they cant practice christianity, and the christians cannot tell the gays they cant practice homosexuality

We weren't talking about that, though. You talked not about homosexual practice but about gay marriage. Different thing. If your gay marriage is only recognised within your own home, and likewise your straight marriage, then the institution becomes a nonsense _anyway_, which may well be a good thing but means that it wudl not be a cure, merely a removal of the issue. Advocates and opponents of gay marriage, by the way, tend not to cite the will of the peoople except secondarily. For those in favour it is a matter of equality, for those against a matter of morality. The idea that it is a matter of democracy or of finance seems frankly a bit odd.

Further, if a gay couple declares that they are married, and the Christian couple then decide to kill them for it despite the state of marriage having no legal meaning anymore, you have it as morally wrong, because their lives are their property. Well and good, and indeed a quick look at socialist systems sees that most of those have similar prohibitions about killing people without asking. So... what then? How is this law against infringement upon property enforced?
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:48 / 06.12.04
I think Laces has misunderstood my points above, so I thought I'd reiterate a little with respect to this,

Market forces in a theoretically pure free trade economy are the most efficient way to generate wealth through trade and to allocate goods where they are needed. And not only that, but they are a fantastically elegant and compelling way of doing so.

I think anyone on the left, when they hear this, should be extremely reluctant to concede it as being representative of a consensus, or as in any way self evident.

Firstly, as far as I can tell, many economists (who tend not to be raving socialists, by any standard usage of the word) broadly agree that markets do not function well without a proper framwork in which rules and regulations are set. The IMF provides some examples of this.

Secondly, there are many situations where the creation of wealth has come in circumstances far removed from markets. The EU is a good example of this.

If you put those together, the concession of the fact that free markets are the most efficient, seems premature. Having said that, most economists would argue that markets within a proper framework are most efficient, but that qualification leaves a lot of space for variation. (As Atyeo says, the pronouncements of economists aren't water tight, but I think one should bear in mind that both the evidence and the consensus is rather more complex than free market ideologues would have you believe.)

To illustrate one aspect of this complexity, lets tackle good old "meritocracy". Some people on the left will tell you that meritocracies are insufficient, but I think this is a tactical mistake. The reason being that capitalist nations are laughably far from being meritocratic. One could even argue that the freer the market, the less meritocracy is evident. This really shouldn't be surprising, if you think about how priviledge maintains itself. The upshot of this is that a call for meritocracy cannot honestly be divorced from a call for social justice and so you can even try to justify the latter via an amoral "efficiency" argument. No, really.
 
 
jbsay
16:16 / 06.12.04
Tann--

Again, depending on who you ask there are ways to deal with property violations (e.g., set up a court system to deal with it).

As for marriage...personally I find the whole thing somewhat incomprhensible (what do I care if someone else thinks I'm married or not? does it affect me if someone doesnt believe that my wife is my wife? do i need a certificate to know that i'm married? isn't that an issue between my wife and I?).

The advocates and detractors of issues such as this IMPLICITLY are citing the will of "the people", which is in reality their OWN will and morals that they wish to impose on OTHERS. This is an economic (social) issue. If your property rights are inviolable, what can they do about you being married? They can ignore it. They can not hire you. They can not do business with you. That is their choice. Just like you can ignore others, or not go work for them, or not do business with them. Other gays can start their own businesses and hire you, and potentially put the "discriminatory" companies out of business. Freedom of association and the free market.

I dont understand your point. Killing, obviously, is unacceptable under private property (morals have little to do with it) or public property. Doesn't killing violate one of Jesus' teachings btw? But as an aside, the issue is dealt with simply. If you kill someone you pay the penalty (jail/death/whatever you work out as your system), whether under capitalism or socialism.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:27 / 06.12.04
But doesn't that suggest that, even if completely free markets existed, there would still be a need for some sort of government to apply the system which had been agreed (not to mention a mechanism for securing that agreement) - and to exclude/punish those who chose not to adhere to that system (where property rights of whatever sort had been infringed)... and that this would presumably have to be funded somehow, whether through voluntary contributions, volunteer organisations (both of which would potentially inject particular interests into the maintenance of the system) or through some form of systematised (and therefore administrated) contributions?
 
 
jbsay
16:28 / 06.12.04
Lurid,

No disrespect, but you have no idea what you are talking about. I've spent 6 years as a student in economics and another year on the other side, teaching. I also do this stuff for a living. So I've kind of seen it first hand. The vast majority of economists are in fact raving socialists, even if they dont call themselves that or understand the fact.

You throw around a lot of terms that you clearly do not understand. For instance "wealth creation" and "growth". You also clearly do not understand the concept of "oppportunity cost", which is what you don't see in the statistics but WOULD have happened if someone acted in a different manner. For this reason and others (see praxeology in my above post), you cant use your bullshit IMF/Euro statistics to compare/contrast anything. Statistics are not valid in economics (see praxeology above), even if you had perfect statistical knowledge, which you don't.

Furthermore, I know a tad about forensic accounting and I can tell you first hand about the accounting fraud inherent to those statistics you quote. You think Enron is bad? Government financial metrics are infinitely worse. If you'd like a primer on US accounting fraud I'd suggest you read this. http://www.gillespieresearch.com/cgi-bin/bgn/article/id=378


Again, the point is NOT that the market is efficient. It is that your way (socialism) is impossible. Unless you can explain to me in detail how a socialist planner would allocate resources (and professional socialists who are much better versed in the debate than you are have been debating this for decades, and still not come up with a solution), your philosophy is just plain wrong. On this universe and every other parallel universe. Doesn't matter what your morals are, or how self-rigtheous you are, or how much you want to "save the children"--IT SIMPLY WILL NOT WORK. End of story.
 
 
jbsay
16:33 / 06.12.04
Excerpt 1 from Mises, Human Action

XXV. THE IMAGINARY CONSTRUCTION OF A SOCIALIST SOCIETY
3. The Praxeological Character of Socialism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The essential mark of socialism is that one will alone acts. It is immaterial whose will it is. The director may be an anointed king or a dictator, ruling by virtue of his charisma, he may be a Fuhrer or a board of Fuhrers appointed by the vote of the people. The main thing is that the employment of all factors of production is directed by one agency only. One will alone chooses, decides, directs, acts, gives orders. All the rest simply obey orders and instructions. Organization and a planned order are substituted for the "anarchy" [p. 696] of production and for various people's initiative. Social cooperation under the division of labor is safeguarded by a system of hegemonic bonds in which a director peremptorily calls upon the obedience of all his wards.

In terming the director society (as the Marxians do), state (with a capital S), government, or authority, people tend to forget that the director is always a human being, not an abstract notion or a mythical collective entity. We may admit that the director or the board of directors are people of superior ability, wise and full of good intentions. But it would be nothing short of idiocy to assume that they are omniscient and infallible.

In a praxeological analysis of the problems of socialism, we are not concerned with the moral and ethical character of the director. Neither do we discuss his value judgments and his choice of ultimate ends. What we are dealing with is merely the question of whether any mortal man, equipped with the logical structure of the human mind, can be equal to the tasks incumbent upon a director of a socialist society.

We assume that the director has at his disposal all the technological knowledge of his age. Moreover, he has a complete inventory of all the material factors of production available and a roster enumerating all manpower employable. In these respects the crowd of experts and specialists which he assembles in his offices provide him with perfect information and answer correctly all questions he may ask them. Their voluminous reports accumulate in huge piles on his desk. But now he must act. He must choose among an infinite variety of projects in such a way that no want which he himself considers more urgent remains unsatisfied because the factors of production required for its satisfaction are employed for the satisfaction of wants which he considers less urgent.

It is important to realize that this problem has nothing at all to do with the valuation of the ultimate ends. It refers only to the means by the employment of which the ultimate ends chosen are to be attained. We assume that the director has made up his mind with regard to the valuation of ultimate ends. We do not question his decision. Neither do we raise the question of whether the people, the wards, approve or disapprove of their director's decisions. We may assume for the sake of argument, that a mysterious power makes everyone agree with one another and with the director in the valuation of ultimate ends. [p. 697]

Our problem, the crucial and only problem of socialism, is a purely economic problem, and as such refers merely to means and not to ultimate ends. [p. 698]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:34 / 06.12.04
In other words, I'm not sure how the protection of private property can be (mutually) assured in any way that does not involve either some form of coalition of private interests (thereby excluding those who do not share that interest) or some delegation of protection to an appointed or representative body - and I don't see how the latter differs from government, and I don't see how the former provides equal protection to all. Nor do I think that either allows freedom to those who do not wish to be part of the system.

I dunno, I reckon greed and rapacity probably win out either way.
 
 
jbsay
16:36 / 06.12.04
Excerpt 2from Mises, Human Action

XXVI. THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF ECONOMIC CALCULATION UNDER SOCIALISM
1. The Problem
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The director wants to build a house. Now, there are many methods that can be resorted to. Each of them offers, from the point of view of the director, certain advantages and disadvantages with regard to the utilization of the future building, and results in a different duration of the building's serviceableness; each of them requires other expenditures of building materials and labor and absorbs other periods of production. Which method should the director choose? He cannot reduce to a common denominator the items of various materials and various kinds of labor to be expended. Therefore he cannot compare them. He cannot attach either to the waiting time (period of production) or to the duration of serviceableness a definite numerical expression. In short, he cannot, in comparing costs to be expended and gains to be earned, resort to any arithmetical operation. The plans of his architects enumerate a vast multiplicity of various items in kind; they refer to the physical and chemical qualities of various materials and to the physical productivity of various machines, tools, and procedures. But all their statements remain unrelated to each other. There is no means of establishing any connection between them.

Imagine the plight of the director when faced with a project. What he heeds to know is whether or not the execution of the project will increase well-being, that is, add something to the wealth available without impairing the satisfaction of wants which he considers more urgent. But none of the reports he receives give him any clue to the solution of this problem.

We may for the sake of argument at first disregard the dilemmas involved in the choice of consumers' goods to be produced. We may assume that this problem is settled. But there is the embarrassing multitude of producers' goods and the infinite variety of procedures that can be resorted to for manufacturing definite consumers' goods. The most advantageous location of each industry and the optimum size of each plant and of each piece of equipment must be determined. [p. 699] One must determine what kind of mechanical power should be employed in each of them, and which of the various formulas for the production of this energy should be applied. All these problems are raised daily in thousands and thousands of cases. Each case offers special conditions and requires an individual solution appropriate to these data. The number of elements with which the director's decision has to deal is much greater than would be indicated by a merely technological description of the available producers' goods in terms of physics and chemistry. The location of each of them must be taken into consideration as well as the serviceableness of the capital investments made in the past for their utilization. The director does not simply have to deal with coal as such, but with thousands and thousands of pits already in operation in various places, and with the possibilities for digging new pits, with the various methods of mining in each of them, with the various methods for utilizing the coal for the production of heat, power, and a great number of derivatives. It is permissible to say that the present state of technological knowledge makes it possible to produce almost anything out of almost everything. Our ancestors, for instance, knew only a limited number of employments for wood. Modern technology has added a multitude of possible new employments. Wood can be used for the production of paper, of various textile fibers, of foodstuffs, drugs, and many other synthetic products.

Today two methods are resorted to for providing a city with clean water. Either one brings the water over long distances in aqueducts, an ancient method long practiced, or one chemically purifies the water available in the city's neighborhood. Why does one not produce water synthetically in factories? Modern technology could easily solve the technological problems involved. The average man in his mental inertia is ready to ridicule such projects as sheer lunacy. However, the only reason why the synthetic production of drinking water today--perhaps not at a later day--is out of the question is that economic calculation in terms of money shows that it is a more expensive procedure than other methods. Eliminate economic calculation and you have no means of making a rational choice between the various alternatives.

The socialists, it is true, object that economic calculation is not infallible. They say that the capitalists sometimes make mistakes in their calculation. Of course, this happens and will always happen. For all human action points to the future and the future is always uncertain. The most carefully elaborated plans are frustrated if expectations [p. 700] concerning the future are dashed to the ground. However, this is quite a different problem. Today we calculate from the point of view of our present knowledge and of our present anticipation of future conditions. We do not deal with the problem of whether or not the director will be able to anticipate future conditions. What we have in mind is that the director cannot calculate from the point of view of his own present value judgments and his own present anticipations of future conditions, whatever they may be. If he invests today in the canning industry, it may happen that a change in consumers' tastes or in the hygienic opinions concerning the wholesomeness of canned food will one day turn his investment into a malinvestment. But how can he find out today how to build and equip a cannery most economically?

Some railroad lines constructed at the turn of the century would not have been built if people had at that time anticipated the impending advance of motoring and aviation. But those who at that time built railroads knew which of the various possible alternatives for the realization of their plans they had to choose from the point of view of their appraisements and anticipations and of the market prices of their day in which the valuations of the consumers were reflected. It is precisely this insight that the director will lack. He will be like a sailor on the high seas unfamiliar with the methods of navigation, or like a medieval scholar entrusted with the technical operation of a railroad engine.

We have assumed that the director has already made up his mind with regard to the construction of a definite plant or building. However, in order to make such a decision he already needs economic calculation. If a hydroelectric power station is to be built, one must know whether or not this is the most economical way to produce the energy needed. How can he know this if he cannot calculate costs and output?

We may admit that in its initial period a socialist regime could to some extent rely upon of the preceding age of capitalism. But what is to be done later, as conditions change more and more? Of what use could the prices of 1900 be for the director in 1949? And what use can the director in 19890 derive from the knowledge of the prices of 1949?

The paradox of "planning" is that it cannot plan, because of the absence of economic calculation. What is called a planned economy is no economy at all. It is just a system of groping about in the dark. There is no question of a rational choice of means for the best possible [p. 701] attainment of the ultimate ends sought. What is called conscious planning is precisely the elimination of conscious purposive action.
 
 
jbsay
16:52 / 06.12.04
Kit-Cat

I think you are correct, you probably need a coalition to ensure property protection. The key is that this is the only thing they are tasked with. They are NOT tasked with building roads, supplying "free" education, subsidizing housing, setting wage/price controls, coining/printing money,etc.

Ironically, I think that fiat (money) inflation under socialism (as opposed to free market money such as gold/silver) actually excacerbates greed since it makes prices rise, making people MORE focused on money than they otherwise would have been.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:53 / 06.12.04
No disrespect, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Me and certain Nobel prize winners, yeah.

Statistics are not valid in economics (see praxeology above), even if you had perfect statistical knowledge, which you don't.

Fair enough, but then your rather fantastical assertions which ignore any sort of power structure aren't really any better. Quite a lot worse, if you are insisting that we can learn nothing from the way actual economies work.

The vast majority of economists are in fact raving socialists, even if they dont call themselves that or understand the fact.

If I've understood you correctly, you think that Bush is a socialist. Excuse me if I don't take your accusations of bias all that seriously.

Again, the point is NOT that the market is efficient. It is that your way (socialism) is impossible.

You are clearly using a definition of the word "impossible" that I am not familiar with, since you believe that all nations are already essentially socialist.
 
 
jbsay
17:03 / 06.12.04
Lurid,
I don't remember the exact debate term, but this is a fallacious argument appealing to authority. Saying someone won a Nobel Prize does not make their theory correct. Someone once won the Nobel Prize for discovering that excessively activated electrical circuits in the frontal lobe cause schizophrenia. The cure for that was lobotomy.

Fair enough, but then your rather fantastical assertions which ignore any sort of power structure aren't really any better. Quite a lot worse, if you are insisting that we can learn nothing from the way actual economies work.
I am not insisting anything of the sort. You are not understanding praxeology. The whole point is that you can make LOGICAL statements about how economics work based on the use of reason by looking at how INDIVIDUALS act. Looking at statistics to empirally derive laws or make associations/assertions is not possible, however.

you wrote
If I've understood you correctly, you think that Bush is a socialist. Excuse me if I don't take your accusations of bias all that seriously.

Pretty much, yeah. I also think that hitler was a socialist. Or mussolini. or stalin. or pol pot. or castro. or mao.

You can take my assertions seriously or not, that is your choice.

You are clearly using a definition of the word "impossible" that I am not familiar with, since you believe that all nations are already essentially socialist.
The answer is that it is impossible "in the long run" (keynes coyly noted that "in the long run we're all dead") which checking my watch, is right about now. Funny how time works, huh?
 
 
jbsay
17:12 / 06.12.04
I would also recommend that you read up on wolfram/cellular automata/and complexity theory.

Basically, most people think that if you start with a simple set of rules (such as that "humans act"), the outcome will also be simple and predictable.

This is only sometimes the case, but because it is simpler to analyze it is the most frequently studied.
Most people forget that simplicity is the exception and not the rule.


Under chaos and complexity theory, you begin to realize that there is enough order that economists/statisticians/mathematicians/etc are lulled into thinking they can ignore the Chaos, analyze just the Order, and make predictions. I would urge you to look at the pictures for cellular automata rules 30 and 110 on the wolfram web site, and come up with a statistical model of that. Because it is very similar in concept to the "free market" that emerges from the collective actions of individual humans.

This fits in nicely with the "invisible hand" theory. The underlying premise is that if people wish to advance their material wealth in the marketplace they must produce things that will advance the interests of others, and that this is the most efficient way to enhance society's interests as a whole.
According to Smith, in a free market each participant will try to maximize self-interest, and the interaction of individuals, leading to exchange of goods and services, enables each participant to be better of than when simply producing for himself/herself.
No external regulation is needed to ensure that the mutually beneficial exchange takes place, since the "invisible hand" would guide market participants to trade in the most mutually beneficial manner.

This fits in rather nicely with swarm theory, complexity theory, etc. In insect societies, the global "project" is not explicitly programmed within individuals, but emerges after the succession of a high number of elementary interactions between individuals, or between individuals and the environment. The collective intelligence gets built from a multitude of individual simplicities.

Organization is not a property imposed upon the system by an external, top-down regulating influence.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
17:12 / 06.12.04
Jah - I can see that having a coalition for protection of property would be pragmatic, but how would it work in a way that doesn't undermine your argument? Because either everyone makes a contribution whether they like it or not (i.e. taxation, which you believe to be theft, and a system which is administered), or no one has to make a contribution, which means that those who opt out of the contribution system are left unprotected (i.e. the free market does not automatically create the best possible condition for everyone).

Or there is simply no system, in which case there is no protection whatsoever. I think this is the only position which works with your theory, really, but I am not sure how it would work in practice. There would be no way of ensuring the inviolability of property whatsoever, thus opening the system to abuse.

I am thinking over your Mises extracts and trying to put my finger on what it is that makes me uncomfortable with them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:13 / 06.12.04
I don't remember the exact debate term, but this is a fallacious argument appealing to authority.

You mean, like telling people that you are an economics expert, work for a hedge fund, teach economics part-time? Come, come, Jah. Level playing field.
 
 
jbsay
17:17 / 06.12.04
Tann--

You mean, like telling people that you are an economics expert, work for a hedge fund, teach economics part-time? Come, come, Jah. Level playing field.

Lol. I used that to show that he doesnt know what academic economics is like, since he has no first-hand knowledge and I do. The case against socialism, however, has nothing to do with my experience or credentials--it stands on its own.
 
 
jbsay
17:30 / 06.12.04
Kit Kat,

Again, there are a lot of different proposals for how to make it work in practice. My interests are primarily on the economic side, not the administrative side. But to give a quick example. If the tax is a flat fee of $5000/year for each person, is that theft? Yeah. Is it an ideal construct? No. Is it infinitely better than tax rates of 50+%, and being taxed an additional 10% of purchasing power every year because the infernal central banks print money out of thin air (the "invisible"/inflation tax)? Yeah. I'd say so.
 
 
jbsay
17:34 / 06.12.04
Wolfram lilnk
http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/toc.html
http://www.wolframscience.com/reference/CAandNature.pdf
 
  

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