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We3 #3

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
13:06 / 03.02.05
forgot to mention in my long post - this could go in the VIMANARAMA thread - but these Vertigo minis were heavy in the emotional department, weren't they? even when they apparently ended on a happy tone, it was either false [SEAGUY] or unsettling [the "we're OK but so damaged" feeling WE3 brought to me].

it's unfair to always relate the work to the author's personal life [it can be unfair and deceiving]... although maybe Grant's losing his father may have something to do with this. well, a way to vent those feelings are always welcome.

VIMANARAMA seems too crazy to end in tears, but it wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong with this.
 
 
_Boboss
13:28 / 03.02.05
re: the vignettes. think the lack of a human central character really helped the swish of the story - no explanation, no looking back, no textual certainty at all really. played to morrizon's strengths (blah blah hypercondensed between the panels work it out for yourself blah). a series of moments on a journey, pretty fragments of occurence, but no(t much) actual narrative to mention, other than 'onward'.

sgood. could nearly convince myself it's a proper brave step forward, one of very few us comics that doesn't insist on taking its reader through the story by the hand. the other expert at this mode of storytelling 'be a grown up. look at the pictures. work it out' who springs to mind is miller, and i think the pairing of moz and mil as the writers of the bats- and supey-movie roadshow '05 could be a good move for that reason.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:18 / 03.02.05
>> Why, if they could survive without their suits, did the military not just take their suits off and release them? For fear that somebody might hook them back up into battle suits and interview them?

LOL!
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:17 / 03.02.05
The ending, though touching, was probably the more cinematic than comfortable. The story seemed to go for a more traditional Action (Disney) movie approach; with a happy ending at all costs.

I loved Bandits "is coat not me" realization, as well as the "just desserts" of those soldier in pursuit. Still, it kind of reads as a dispensing, or at least loosening, of the story's internal logic for the sake of the emotional gratification. A happy ending.

I didn't mind; the series was still enjoyable with many great moments. That scene when the soldiers come across the loose armor about to explode had "action film" written all over it. "haha" I thought, "outsmarted by a dog."

It's easy enough to imagine Bandit asking Tinker to tear off his armor and doing the same in return. That's the thing, after the doctor's tragic death/sacrifice so much of following events seemed more believable; as though she was the story's connection to our reality, or some such. Perhaps she knew someone had to die in this narrative and opted to take that upon herself, allowing some other fiction suit/character to appear and save them at the very last minute.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:56 / 03.02.05
Could a symapthetic vet have removed most of that stuff out of the goodness of their heart? Lots of dogs and cats have metal put in and taken out of them to heal fractures, after all.

As for the "medication", I figured Morrison was riffing off the dolphin in William Gibson's Jonny Nemonic story - the army had them hooked on junk, and withdrawl + exosuit would kill them. Take away the exosuit, and they can surivive the detox.

Just put it in the fucking books the next time, please Grant?
 
 
The Natural Way
21:36 / 03.02.05
Oh, when I mentioned the black barking, I should have also mentioned the fucking incredible panels preceding and after it. That thing's terrifying, blocking the bullets (like some grotesque super-hero) and when he juggernauts into that car..... Yes!

God, I don't give a poo about the really lickle plot-holes.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:45 / 03.02.05
God, I don't give a poo about the really lickle plot-holes.

You'n'me both. Or, possibly, neither you nor me.

All that matters is whether it worked or not in terms of the story George and Mr Q were telling. As far as I'm concerned, it did. Come on, as far as I know, most of that technology's still impossible in real life. Does that invalidate the whole thing? Does it ARSE.
 
 
SiliconDream
06:47 / 04.02.05
Was there any particular reason Animal Weapon 4 had no helmet? It looked cooler that way, no question...but the other three were only bare-headed because they left their helmets behind. Did they think Weapon 4 could better intimidate Bandit into submission if his face was visible? It sure backfired when Tinker appeared.

Related to that--Weapon 4 must have been internally enhanced a bit. He bit straight through Pirate's armor, and got back up after smashing headfirst into the police car. That's no ordinary mastiff...
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
07:59 / 04.02.05
That will be the adamantium skeleton.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
09:06 / 04.02.05
Just put it in the fucking books the next time, please Grant?

yes, next time I want at least three pages showing the animals dismantling their exoskeletons, and four more of a scientist explaining TO THE READER exactly how the WE3 operatives worked in the first place. Without these vital sequences, a clear reading of the comic is IMPOSSIBLE.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:52 / 04.02.05
Did anybody actually say that? I'm not sure they did...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:26 / 04.02.05
Brrrr.

I'm now envisaging We3 as written by Pat Mills.

Brrrr.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:21 / 04.02.05
No Haus, I was exaggerating. Forgive me.

I was reading Mister Miracle the other day - the Kirby stuff- and was struck by how fast moving and densely written it was. There were however moments where Mister Miracle escaped from traps and it wasn't explained how. And it didn't matter. Now perhaps this points to Kirby's deficiencies as a storyteller, but whilst reading I was more struck by how inventive,dynamic, strange and downright entertaining these stories were.
I simply feel that WE3 was a certain type of story, one where the reader was expected to forgive a certain amount of fancifulness. Yes animals may not actually be the most practical and deadly new form of weapon. Yes it's debatable how accurate the depiction of the animal's thought processes are, and yes it's not entirely believable that they dismantled there armour themselves. But is it deficient in it's storytelling? In my opinion no. I found it original and engrossing, and I genuinely cared for the protagonists - something I find increasingly difficult with most comics I read.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:52 / 04.02.05
Thank you. That makes a lot more sense, and does not rely on belittling others for its force.

Largely, I agree with you - the point here was that we care about We3 and want them to be well, and the build-up was so clearly aimed at the expectation of their death that their survival, and the way they found happiness as simple animals, was lovely - and also in keeping with the Disney dynamic - the apparently insurmountable problems melt away in the final reel.

It might be worth comparing this to the discussion of Batman's escape in JLA Classified #3. There, you can say that Batman was, formally, always going to escape. The presence of the disembodied Warmaker One was signposted as one way he could escape, but more generally it is what Batman does - he escapes traps.

I think, for me, the only problem here is that the inevitable death of We3 was signposted so clearly in #1 that to have it revealed that all they had to do was take their armour off to live seemed a bit cheap. You could argue that this was an option that the military had simply not considered, because for them the "coat" *was* We3. Does anyone have the wording in #1 handy?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:34 / 04.02.05
Of course Kirby doesn't need to explain Mr Miracle's escapes - that is sort of the point, him being the world's greatest escape artist and all.

It just strikes me that We2's survival (and honestly, I loved cat, dog and comic all) should have at least been hinted at as a possiblity somewhere, rather than being established as impossible in #1. Establish the homeless guy as a vet rather than a mechanic. Easy.
 
 
Ganesh
12:42 / 04.02.05
i think there's probably just wee drill-holes in their skulls, nothing that the skin wouldn't grow over again. supersmart trepanned animals. treppanimals. once you levered off the scart-box things between their ears you could just leave the little wires in there, probably safer than removing them.

Mmmm... but even "wee drill-holes" (and those metal implants on the tops of their heads looked several notches up from "wee") tend to breach the more-or-less hermetic seal of the cranial cavity and allow infection in - particularly following a long period of immunosuppression (which would've been necessary to stop their bodies rejecting the "little wires"). A difficult proposition at the best of times - and if carried out by a bum with a toolbox? Well...

But, as has been articulated by others several times already, We3 is gorgeous and affecting enough to overlook both drill-holes and plot-holes. Essentially, however, I'm in agreement with Haus here: if the feel(quite)good ending weren't presented as such a dramatic twist, I don't suppose the implausibilities would be jumping out quite as much, and I wouldn't be picking them over like this.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:01 / 04.02.05
I think, for me, the only problem here is that the inevitable death of We3 was signposted so clearly in #1 that to have it revealed that all they had to do was take their armour off to live seemed a bit cheap. You could argue that this was an option that the military had simply not considered, because for them the "coat" *was* We3.

I got the impression that the breakthrough was We3 realising that the coat wasn't We3. Bandit's sudden understanding that the armour was not part of him. This, perhaps, was what the military were depending on -- the animals never comprehending that removing the armour was even possible.

Having said that, a double-page spread with cutaways of "How We3's Armor Works!" and "Secrets of Tinker's Weapons!" with arrows, blueprints, the works!! would have been top. Ideally this would have been promised on the cover, with a nice banner "Extra Inside! You Won't Believe the We3 Confidential Secrets We Uncover on pp.15-16!"

Plus a back-page invitation to join the "Friend of We3 FanClub" with Pirate pointing out at the reader and Bandit sporting a special hairy-effect, roll-eyes dog badge that members can get along with a monthly special newsletter "signed" with paw-prints from all three of your friends. Maybe with a furry Tinker gonk too.

I shall be mentioning all this to Grant next time I channel him through my ritual to LOKI.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:23 / 04.02.05
Of course Kirby doesn't need to explain Mr Miracle's escapes - that is sort of the point, him being the world's greatest escape artist and all.

Actually, early Mister Miracle had the escapes detailed at some length, IIRC - they were often ludicrus, but MM would take the time to explain how he had escaped, because that was the gig. That changed presumably because it got boring.

Kovacs - yeah - either the military couldn't believe they would be able to take off their armour, or they just didn't think of the animals without suits, because they would not be militarily significant - so they thought of their deaths as inevitable because they had not conceived of the humane option. But why would the doctor not have thought of this? If a homeless guy with a toolkit could sort out their kit, so could she, surely?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:01 / 04.02.05
...a long period of immunosuppression (which would've been necessary to stop their bodies rejecting the "little wires").

Mm. You know, that sounded kinda plausible, given that the "they'll die without their medication" thing was a bit of a McGuffin, but: don't you only need immunosuppressants if you've been implanted with live tissue?

When D (who is a nurse) read this, she assumed the "medication" was some sort of psychoactive, boosting the animals' brainwaves to the proper state to interface with the armor. Immunosuppression never entered her mind: after all, you don't go on immunosuppressants for a hip replacement, or for breast implants, or even for a pacemaker...

Of course, one can't necessarily expect Signor Morricone to know this: and, as Tricky says, one gets the sensation that, in his drive to give his characters a happy ending, he did play rather fast-and-loose with plausible science.

And I think it's interesting that he managed to create enough sympathy for his characters, and to have us all rooting so hard for them, that we are almost comically willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, to let him off the hook for his lapses of research—because, as appalling as those lapses are, they alloowed for an ending that was hugely satisfying on an emotional level. Science be damned: in the end, only compassion really matters.

Actually, if there's an overarching theme to WE3, that's probably it: only compassion will save us. Not just the kindness of the hobo, but the compassion that Roseanne, by her sacrifice—by her example—awakens in We3 themselves.

Roseanne's the real Christ-figure, here, isn't she? Not just because she sacrifices her life to save Bandit, but because in so doing she provides a model by which Bandit and Tinker may be saved. Remember, at this point Tinker has run off, abandoning Bandit to his fate: and throughout their dventure, Tinker has been cynical and scornful of Bandit's goals and leadership—one gets the feeling that Tinker only stays with the group out of self-interest and safety in numbers.

Tinker cannot be blamed for this: it is a cat's nature to look out for Number One—cats are solitary, after all, not pack-hunters like dogs. But after witnessing Roseanne's self-sacrifice, Tinker does something extraordinary (as even Trendle acknowledges)—Tinker overcomes a cat's biological imperative, and returns for a fallen comrade—and later tends to the ailing Bandit. Tinker, biologically programmed for selfishness, has learned compassion: flawed, gross cat-nature has been redeemed by sacrificial example.

A couple of other notes:

Was most impressed with Giorgio's writing, esp. his ability to define distinctive personalities for We3 through aggressively simple dialogue—to show us, for instance, that Bandit is both poet and dreamer despite having a working vocabulary of only about 300 words. The descriptions of abstract, poetic concepts like Home (in issue #1) and Death (in this issue—"far black where") were simply inspired, and inspiredly simple.

Frank's storytelling has never been better. He's really creating a new visual vocabulary here, and working the hell out of it. Seriously, I would stack this stuff up against Eisner at his most innovative.

Finally: someone mentioned, I think in the thread for issue #2, the notion that We3 (in their "civilian" identities) were all named for various rogue/outsider figures—Bandit, Tinker, Pirate. Note that as the story comes to a close, the We3 "family," temporarily reduced to two, is three again—and that the new third is another who stands outside society, and nameless (to us) but for his designation: Bandit, Tinker, Hobo.
 
 
Ganesh
14:52 / 04.02.05
don't you only need immunosuppressants if you've been implanted with live tissue?

Yeah, that's true. I guess I'd assumed there'd be organic/endocrine elements to a lot of the hardware, but if it's just (properly sterile) metal, then there'd likely be a degree of local fibrosis around the implants but not necessarily a full-on immune response.

Hm. So if that's not the purpose of the animals' "medication", then what is? The brainwave-boosting thing sounds a bit iffy to me, but I could probably buy a general nervous system enhancer, to quicken reflexes, etc. Doesn't explain why they wouldn't survive without it, though...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:41 / 04.02.05
some people thought they were just heads?
really!?
 
 
Mario
15:45 / 04.02.05
Ten give you twenty it's some sort of control. Either a hypnotic to keep the animals tamed, or some sort of vital chemical component required for the suits to operate.

Of course, if the military was really nasty, they could borrow a page from DUNE and make the medication the antidote for a poison already in their systems. But I'm guessing it's something that keeps the armor working.
 
 
Aertho
15:51 / 04.02.05
All this endocrine whatsit talk is so flippin overthought.

Animals in robo-suits are different than decapitated animals in robo-bodies in one simple way -they still have to poop. Maybe this "medicine" ain't more than simplified sugars that are easily digested into the body and creating no fecal waste? I'm no expert, but urine disposes of most cellular waste, and that's a lot easier with a catheter... (removable wires and whatnot)

Tinker ate a bird in ish 2 and was constipated through the end of ish 2 and the beginning of ish 3.

So yeah, take away the suits, and allow for natural digestion to exist, and the animals live fine. And PRESTO! there's another theme for ya, kids.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:17 / 04.02.05
yes, but when these animals poop, they poop explosive grenades.

>> But after witnessing Roseanne's self-sacrifice, Tinker does something extraordinary (as even Trendle acknowledges)—Tinker overcomes a cat's biological imperative, and returns for a fallen comrade—and later tends to the ailing Bandit. Tinker, biologically programmed for selfishness, has learned compassion: flawed, gross cat-nature has been redeemed by sacrificial example.

Yeah, I was showing the Tinker brings a mouse to Bandit scene to a friend and thought for a moment, "Wait a minute, cats never do stuff like this except a mother for her baby kittens."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:31 / 04.02.05
Remember, at this point Tinker has run off, abandoning Bandit to his fate:

Tinker is triangulating - We3 have been trained to work as a group.
 
 
The Falcon
22:55 / 04.02.05
I think the hobo is a 'vet' in the war sense.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
23:30 / 04.02.05
Agree strongly with Haus on the issue of loyalty - Tinker is a stealth killer, after all.

Nobody's quoted on how amazing that full page splash of him descending on We4 was though - household pet turned samurai warrior god. Single best image from the whole series, in my book.
 
 
The Falcon
16:50 / 05.02.05
Re: Loyalty. It does mention that the woman trained them to work as a team.
 
 
Sekhmet
02:44 / 06.02.05
Holy shit. I finally got to the comic shop today. I started reading this thing, and a few minutes later I'm standing in the living room with tears streaming down my face. That scene with Bandit and Roseanne just about killed me.

Yeah, so they took off their own armor, and some homeless guy can apparently remove the remaining stuff with household tools. That bothered me for about three seconds, but my brain fed me rationalizations I can live with...

I'm running with the theory that Bandit and Tinker were able to lever pieces of armor off their hindquarters using the enhanced limbs on the front, and then back out of the front portion once half the suits were off, biting or clawing through any wires or tubes. Looking at Tinker here, it appears that this left only the leg clamps - easily removed with a screwdriver - and some hardware connections that are plugged into ports lying level with the animals' skin. Once these attachments were removed, fur would cover the ports, and they would just look like slightly scarred-up animals. The internal portions of the ports - which I figure were just wires attached to muscles or bones, providing impulses to drive the machinery limbs whenever the animals moved - would just remain in their bodies.

As far as the head attachments; it's obvious that this part scarred worse than the rest, but I'm thinking that maybe there was no skull-drilling or any direct implant to the brain. The box may have been a restraining device, a tracking system, or something that measured brain activity like an EKG, or even just a steering system - it looks as though there are cables running from the head box to Tinker's neck and upper back, so maybe they used it to turn the animals' heads in a certain direction. I see no reason it necessarily needs to be a neural implant.

I figure the "medicine" was antibiotics and/or anti-inflammatories for the muscle - wire implants. The homeless guy must be able to find something that suffices.

It never occurred to the military to release them from the suits, because they would return to civilization, someone would find animals with implant ports all over them, and it might prompt an investigation. There would be no point in keeping the animals alive without suits because they would be militarily useless and a drain on the system after the project was finished - just like Dr. Berry. Naturally, they would just want to get rid of them.

I think you can see Tinker's voice box attached to his throat, there in the mouse-killing scene.

And by the by, cats will, and do, regularly bring their kills to their families. Usually in pieces, all over the doormat, first thing in the morning, so you step on it when you go out for the paper.
 
 
A beautiful tunnel of ghosts
13:52 / 06.02.05
Finderwolf: Yes, but when these animals poop, they poop explosive grenades.

Pirate is the only member of the team who lays mines, and this seems to be a weapon delivery system that uses the rabbit's impulse to defecate when afraid. In addition, Bandit's SAM launcher seems to be using the dog's impulse to lower its tail when attacking and Tinker's flechettes seem to use the cat's impulse to extend its claws when it attacks.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:33 / 06.02.05
Everyone on page one of this thread wrote a better story than Morrison.

So, that missing issue one dialogue:

General: "So, if they don't get their medicine they get sick and die right?"
Doctor: "You'd think that wouldn't you? Here's the funny thing. They get sick, and then their implants stop working."

I'm a bit annoyed at the 'they don't die' aspect of the story but the precise wording from issue one: "They can't survive more than a few days without their medication." So Morrison is clearly misdirecting like crazy to make us think he means they'll die, but it's a curious turn of phrase for either Roseanne or Trendle to use when it doesn't mean that they'll die. I'm thinking that possibly the medication or part of the medication is what boosts their brainpower to that kind of dumb human level and that, without it, they'd revert to their normal level of intelligence and be stuck, left to starve to death in their suits. A bit more concentration by Morrison on the bit where Bandit realises they can take the suits off would have actually been quite a good idea.

Why does only Weapon 4 have a self-destruct feature? Fair enough he's a barely controllable killing machine but then 1,2 and 3 aren't Mobile Organisms Designed Only for Cuddling.

'Roseanne is a Christ figure'? On a planet made of crack! With the exception of the hobo and Trendle at the end none of the humans are particularly pleasant or behave well towards the animals. Roseanne just releases them to a long lingering death and has been involved with their being operated on and turned into unnatural killing machines. I also think claiming the hobo was a disaffected scientist or whatever people were saying back up the page, with absolutely nothing in the text to support that is a long reach.

And the guy in the shop, still cutting into the top newspaper then selling them to people. The swine!

An average script from Morrison, I'm not really feeling his non-men in tights stuff a whole lot at the moment, but as with Seaguy, his choice of artists was dead-on. Quietly was spot on throughout the story and really made it special.
 
 
Dicodisco
08:02 / 09.02.05
Has a We3 TPB been announced yet ?

Thanks.
 
 
wicker woman
08:46 / 09.02.05
Why does only Weapon 4 have a self-destruct feature? Fair enough he's a barely controllable killing machine but then 1,2 and 3 aren't Mobile Organisms Designed Only for Cuddling.

Roseanne deactivated that particular feature in the first issue, at least as I saw it. Time afterwards didn't really allow for digging it out of her.

As for why the army wouldn't remove the suits themselves, Haus, isn't it a possibility that since Roseanne deactivated any sort of way of stopping them by remote that they just assumed "Fuck, they aren't going to let us get close enough to remove it without cole-slaw-ing our innards... guess we gotta kill 'em." More despicably eloquently, of course, but you get the idea.

I still think it was Trendle that removed the final bits, not the bum. The only bit of proof for the bum is a bit of untucked pants and boots? Oy. I assume Trendle is capable of changing his footwear. Morrison probably only showed the boots so there'd be this speculation on it. Or, with it being him, he's leaving it up to us to choose who we want to be the one removing the implants.
 
 
wicker woman
08:49 / 09.02.05
"Time afterwards didn't really allow for digging it out of her."

"it" being 're'-activation codes, or what-have-you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:47 / 09.02.05
As for why the army wouldn't remove the suits themselves, Haus, isn't it a possibility that since Roseanne deactivated any sort of way of stopping them by remote that they just assumed "Fuck, they aren't going to let us get close enough to remove it without cole-slaw-ing our innards... guess we gotta kill 'em." More despicably eloquently, of course, but you get the idea.

I kind of meant at the end of the project, rather than after they had escaped. I mean, the space monkeys weren't killed - why not just let Roseanne look after We3 in a secure environment? However, this may be a misunderstanding of the military mind.
 
  

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