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Schizophrenics can't process metaphor

 
  

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H3ct0r L1m4
06:40 / 20.09.04
MORRISON DESPAIRS

Grant Morrison's interview in the most recent "arthur" mag makes for fun reading. Grant says, "I'm hoping the prose stuff will be the next continuation of where I want to go. The comics audience is becoming more and more compressed and unpleasant. It's really sad. After I did 'Seaguy' and so many people said they didn't get it, I felt completely exasperated. 'Seaguy' is based on medieval quest literature which always has the young hero setting out and he has his companion who gets killed, the questing beast, but many of my readers seem to now be unaware of storytelling structures beyond the Hollywood three-act, and the literalism is so rife that nobody seems to be able to deal with symbolic content anymore. It's strange. One of the symptoms of schizophrenia is the schizophrenic can't process metaphor. If you say to a schizophrenic 'a rolling stone gathers no moss' he takes it utterly literally! He doesn't see it as having any kind of secondary meaning. My thesis is that everybody's gone kind of schizophrenic, which also explains the rise of reality TV. Because people cannot deal with a symbolic approach anymore-they have to see the 'real deal.' And the real deal is incoherent and it lacks catharsis or dramatic structure."

The cover to "Arthur," going out to 40,000 counter culturalists, is by Cameron Stewart.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:40 / 20.09.04
Gosh. Can anyone else feel their sympathy for George at Seaguy's bad sales kind of draining out of their feet?

There's a thread on this article here, btw.
 
 
Triplets
07:56 / 20.09.04
"No one buys my comic! Therefore the ENTIRE WORLD IS INSANE." I was thinking of splashing out on a Seaguy trade, Geoff. But not now, fucko.
 
 
Char Aina
08:35 / 20.09.04
morrison can't process criticism!

fans despair.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:56 / 20.09.04
Funny, I've thought for a while now that one of the things that mars threads about Morrison's work on Barbelith is an excessively symbolic approach on the part of many readers. Chubby is Seaguy's libido/cock! Chubby is the dead pet goldfish of the child whose dream we are in!
 
 
Ganesh
09:33 / 20.09.04
It's called 'concrete thinking', and it's associated with psychoses generally, as well as certain brain injury, autism, and various personality types.

Claiming that 'schizophrenics can't process metaphor' is a little like saying 'depressives can't dance'. It's true for a certain proportion (as well as plenty who aren't so diagnosed) but is just a tad sweeping.
 
 
Warewullf
10:17 / 20.09.04
As is the statement ...people cannot deal with a symbolic approach anymore....

Some people, Grant, some people.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
11:00 / 20.09.04
Slap the baldy!
 
 
Jack Fear
11:19 / 20.09.04
Gosh. Hell hath no fury like a Barbelith scorned, eh?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:40 / 20.09.04
Actually, Jack, I don't see this interview as "scorning" Barbelith as a group at all, especially since the people on Barbelith have been keen purchasers of Seaguy, in many cases never shut up about the symbolic content, and in many other cases are planning to buy the TPB as well as the comic in the hope that the sales will persuade DC to commission another series. Do you see?

However, it appears that some people on Barbelith see the irony implicit in the juxtaposition of the idea that comics readers are in general all stupid with a show of ignorance about mental health issues (and a rather sketchy tilt at mediaeval literature to boot) that rather casts doubt on the wisdom of making George president of the Smart Boys' Smart Club, and indeed the vainglory implicit in the idea that a failure to "get" Seaguy is indicative of some broader tidal wave of "schizophrenic" ignorance sweeping the (comic-reading) population of Earth. It would be like me drawing the same conclusion from, say, the persistent misquotation of Congreve I have to suffer from the unlearned in my daily life.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:27 / 20.09.04
Actually, Jack, I don't see this interview as "scorning" Barbelith as a group at all...

Well, no—but some posters to this thread apparently feel that they've been tarred with Signor Morricone's over-broad brush, and have reacted rather huffily (Warewulff, Triplets, I'm lookin at you).

Which I found rather amusing: comics writers aren't the only ones who react poorly to criticism...
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
12:32 / 20.09.04
although any kind of generalization is short-sighted - and Grant *has* over-reacted a bit on other 'lazy/dumb reader' situations - I believe you guys are linking this too much with SEAGUY. see reader the reaction to THE FILTH.

I woudn't go as far as link metaphor processing with schizophrenics [though it was fun], but I'd say it's plain and simple lack of education/contact with the concept of metaphor or lack of sensibility to accept and process it. because - like with dreams - you can at least get a 'feel' of what it's about, even if you don't interpret it literally.

you don't need a Masters' Degree to interpret Art, but if you don't have at least the open-mind to try and see a message in more than a single layer [when it applies] then you're bound to be easily fooled in many situations...

and I'm watching this lazyness/lack of sensibity grow in scaring proportions around me. there's too much sarcasm. and what can't be processed in a superficial first reading is nothing but "crazyness/lack of taste/pretentious" etc.

tsc.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:23 / 20.09.04
>>>"No one buys my comic! Therefore the ENTIRE WORLD IS INSANE." I was thinking of splashing out on a Seaguy trade, Geoff. But not now, fucko. <<<

Jesus, that's a bit of an overreaction, isn't it?

For the record, I actually kind of agree with what Grant is saying (medical diagnoses aside) - a lot of the reaction I saw around the net (not here, thankfully) to Seaguy, the last part of New X-Men, and especially the Filth, was very closed-minded - "I don't get it." "This is doesn't make any sense at all." "Weird for weirdness' sake." "Grant must be on drugs." "Meaningless garbage." et al - demonstrating a clear unwillingness to even make an attempt to understand it on anything other than a superficial level. People are becoming lazier and lazier and if everything isn't completely spelled out for them then it is rejected as being impossibly obscure. Grant's point about reality tv is very astute, I think.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:31 / 20.09.04
Grant also outlined his above-quoted theory to me a while ago, but he named Asperger's Syndrome instead of schizophrenia.

"What else is often lacking is comprehension of the nonliteral aspects of language, especially spoken language. Just as they miss nonverbal signals when interacting with others, people with Aspergers usually are stymied by humor, irony, metaphor, or any other use of language that goes beyond literal meaning. "

Which I thought was interesting.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:18 / 20.09.04
The obvious question, to me, is "which people is Morrison talking about here?" Barbelith would surely be an obvious place to gauge reaction to titles like Seaguy and the Filth -- it's a board built largely around response to and appreciation of Morrison's work, where contributors post lengthy criticism in a semi-permanent form. Yet apparently GM doesn't read it. So from where exactly is he drawing his impression of an uncomprehending audience? Is he assuming that people don't "get" his writing -- and by extension that people can only understand a 3-act Hollywood structure and/or reality TV -- because of disappointing sales? Or is this exasperation based on reviews?

I'm not knocking Morrison's frustration or his right to express it -- I'm curious, although perhaps none of us here can answer the question, as to where he gets this idea that people rejected his work because they couldn't grasp it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:20 / 20.09.04
You see, I didn't read any of this as "George is swearing at me! I will take my ball home!", but rather "George is trying to sound clever while decrying how stupid everyone else is, and falling flat on his face."

The idea that reality lacks catharsis and dramatic structure is unoriginal, but perfectly reasonable, but neither needs nor profits from the psychobabble above - and pretty much directly contradicts the "stupid people no longer understand anything other than the Hollywood three-act structure", which depends on an understanding of dramatic structures. Also, of course, reality TV is heavily structured and transformed into narrative through production and media, so unless you are watching the participants from the crawlspace above the ceiling you're getting a structure imposed, and even then you have to decide which room to watch, but that's a bit of a different question.

If anything, the structure of reality TV often follows a quest narrative, ironically - a young man (or woman these days) sets out on a path during which they gain and lose companions, face episodic tasks, and ultimately reach the conclusion where the goal upon which the quest was originally predicated is accomplished, to the good of the society the hero inhabits. That's Challenge Anneka, basically.

It's just all a bit silly, really. Which is why you should concentrate on what people are good at (writing interesting comics, in this case) and avoid assuming it means they will also be interesting interviewees/love gods/fashion plates...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
14:32 / 20.09.04
So he's lashing out at the comic buyer supergroup. Those guys that buy Batman because Jim Lee is pencilling it, the people that buy Ultimates because "continuity is just too hard nowadays".
Comics are dumbing down, critics and readers alike bemoan that there's no intelligent comics out there when all they mean is a twist ending they didn't see coming.
He's a bit pissed, does this mean the next Seaguy mini's have been shelved?
I hope not because even on a playground level it's a lot of fun.
 
 
Ganesh
14:33 / 20.09.04
Grant also outlined his above-quoted theory to me a while ago, but he named Asperger's Syndrome instead of schizophrenia.

Which is a sli-i-ightly less (over)inclusive statement, more Asperger's individuals tending toward concrete thinking than schizophrenic people. I'd still be a little wary of blithely namechecking psychiatric diagnoses in interviews, particularly when the intended effect apparently includes an element of 'the fuckers are too limited to get me'.
 
 
diz
14:49 / 20.09.04
People are becoming lazier and lazier and if everything isn't completely spelled out for them then it is rejected as being impossibly obscure.

i was checking out rottentomatoes.com today, and i came across this gem of a review snippet, which i think is indicative of a certain sort of attitude prevailing at the moment:

"If I ever wrap my mind around Ghost in the Shell 2, I expect someone to hand me a post-graduate degree in existential philosophy."

i've been in an interdisciplinary doctoral program in the History/Sociology/Philosophy of Science, and i've seen Ghost in the Shell 2. in my experience, these are not comparable intellectual endeavors.

obviously, the reviewer's exaggerating, and i don't mean to be a humorless twit here. however, i think the degree to which encountering a little overt philosophy in his entertainment seems to have induced some kind of real discomfort and self-consciousness in him is telling. i think it's one thing to blame the ig'nant proles for having bad taste or lacking intellectual curiosity or the ability to grasp metaphor or what-have-you, but it might be worth looking at the ways the education system (especially, it seems, the American education system) totally fails most people.

in my experience, the American education system up to and including college for most people focuses almost exclusively on career preparation and seems to disdain any kind of real education in the humanities or the arts. as a result, in a lot of cases (though certainly not all), i don't think it's so much that people are lazy so much as they're scared. they just don't have the tools to handle certain types of material, and they know it, and they're embarrassed by that, and so they take the less ego-bruising cop-out route of dismissing anything even remotely challenging as needlessly pretentious.

i think that's why there's such a broad appeal to trite things that offer the comforting illusion of substance. people don't want to feel dumb, and they want something that makes them feel like they've encountered something challenging and thought-provoking, but they are also easily intimidated or shut out because they've never been taught how to approach challenging art. it creates a market for middlebrow crap, the formulaic movies about triumphing over adversity which are so popular around Oscar time and gritty "realistic" comics like Identity Crisis.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:51 / 20.09.04
I'm curious, although perhaps none of us here can answer the question, as to where he gets this idea that people rejected his work because they couldn't grasp it.

Well, the sales figures, presumably, along with DC editorial, who I imagine check out the trade press and message boards to see how something is being received. Bear in mind that although Barbelith does indeed both admire and discuss his work in some depth, it represents a fairly small, if voluble, group of people, so perhaps is not a good representation of how successful the work is in the marketplace. And a comic book is a product like any other - if sales are expected to be so low, for example, that the book has to quadruple in price to return a profit, and it doesn't look like the market will sustain that, then the book doesn't get published.

I can see why that would be annoying. And a terrible shame, because Morrison is, as mainstream comics writers go, very good.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:06 / 20.09.04
Well, the sales figures, presumably, along with DC editorial, who I imagine check out the trade press and message boards to see how something is being received.

Sales figures don't show you why your book isn't being bought by enough people. Reviews tell you what a small sample of unrepresentative people -- reviewers are showing off their own writing skills and savvy, which sometimes leads them to be exaggeratedly critical -- think of your book.

I still don't see how disappointing sales leads Morrison to his (as you show) unconvincing theories about the abilities of the general public to understand narrative structures. Maybe it was too expensive. Maybe they didn't like the art. No offence to Cameron of course (I haven't read Seaguy so I honestly am not slagging your work, which I've only seen for three pages in The Invisible Kingdom) but that's equally likely, in theory.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:23 / 20.09.04
The strange thing is, I didn't notice there were symbols to be decoded, I just thought "hmm, that's odd, one minute Seaboy is escaping from the Xoo, next thing is he's investigating Atlantis as though it's something he's wanted to do all his life without anything to signify that this is indeed the case" or "one minute he's mourning the death of his best friend, next up he's on the moon without a care in the world, how odd". Does this mean I'm only half-schizophrenic Grant?
 
 
Bed Head
16:35 / 20.09.04
I still don't see how disappointing sales leads Morrison to his (as you show) unconvincing theories about the abilities of the general public to understand narrative structures.

One theory: Seaguy is still current. And, y’know, we’ve heard something very similar to this before. As The Invisibles was launched, wasn’t Morrison moaning on about people failing to ‘get’ Doom Patrol, and how hardly anyone managed to get Flex Mentallo? It’s long been one of his selling points. The kindly brainiac, who’s killing himself encoding secret messages into comics to raise our consciousness. If only the world would listen! The demographic that buys comics which they truly believe will make them cleverer than the, er, herd. He’s just drumming up sales, is all.

Unless anyone believes that interviews are just candid chit-chat.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:39 / 20.09.04
I definitely see what he's saying. Particularly with The Filth, the world at large just seemed really confused, and unable to comprehend what was going on. I guess people are used to fairly straightforward stories, and when confronted with something that's different, they freak. This is probably amplified in comics, because of the fact that you're getting so little of the story at a time. With The Filth, you can only really understand it after reading the whole thing, and to have to wait a year to understand the first issue can be frustrating.

And echoing that Ghost in the Shell review, look at the reaction to The Matrix: Reloaded. Just listen to what they're saying closely and think about it, and it's pretty easy to understand, but the vast majority of viewers are just confused, and I see lots of claims that you need to have studied years of philosophy to understand it. Especially among your mainstream, single reading, comics fan, you're not neccessarily going to get the most patient, insightful reader. Morrison's work is best appreciated in trade, and hopefully once Seaguy hits in trade, it'll get a better reaction.
 
 
Ganesh
16:42 / 20.09.04
I'm just hoping "schizophrenics" isn't the new "sheeple"...
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:51 / 20.09.04
Any time a creator cries fowl when an audience doesn't like what he/she has done, pointing at the audience saying they're idiots is just egotism.

The creator failed, period. You can say that no one gets you all you want to an empty auditorium or an angry editor or you can suck it up and accept that you missed the mark.

If you wants to always be right, don't publish, just read your own work in solitude or surrounded by fans.

And to be fair, his work is succesful in a microcosm of comics readers. Those who don't like his work more likely than not never will. He just doesn't appeal to everyone. I'm sad to hear he views some of his work this way, though, because his work IS necessary to comics. I'm glad he's still at it, and that he won't change but his comment regarding his success was just an adolescent reaction.

But Hell, I don't buy his work for his social ability.
 
 
&#9632;
16:55 / 20.09.04
Which is a sli-i-ightly less (over)inclusive statement, more Asperger's individuals tending toward concrete thinking than schizophrenic people.

But at the same time, I would suspect that many comics readers (us included) are more likely to be somewhere on the autistic spectrum. The whole business of collecting and superhero taxonomy surely appeals to those who seek comfort in order (ok that's shorthand, but I'm not an expert, put me right Pinky Shrink). Just look at our threads involving lightsabre colours, or Hal friggin' Jordan...
His beef isn't really anything new, it's just a slightly offensive re-hash of "the market can't take anything different".
 
 
Ganesh
17:07 / 20.09.04
But at the same time, I would suspect that many comics readers (us included) are more likely to be somewhere on the autistic spectrum.

Quite so, which is why it's perhaps a little more accurate than "schizophrenics".
 
 
gridley
17:47 / 20.09.04
well, I bought every issue of Animal Man, Doom Patrol, and Invisibles as they came out. I didn't buy Seaguy (past issue one) because it was cutesy and annoying and I didn't buy the Filth (past a few issues) because I thought the storytelling was really weak. I think it's riduculous for him to claim people aren't buying his comics because "oooh, people just don't get my super cool metaphors, man."

I'm reminded of the lame essay Emile Zola wrote after every critic trashed Teresa Raquin where he explained to them why exactly they were "wrong."

It's art, Grant, and therefore silly to blame your audience when they don't enjoy your creation.
 
 
lukabeast
17:54 / 20.09.04
Quite simply, certain people only want to read a comic book once, board and bag it. Done. Seaguy and The Filth need to be read several times at a leisurely pace in order to process all that is going on. These are the same people that couldn't understand The Matrix (which I don't really get what there is to not understand). If you don't get it, take the time to read it again, enjoy it. Not all meals are meant to be fast food.
 
 
diz
18:08 / 20.09.04
Any time a creator cries fowl when an audience doesn't like what he/she has done, pointing at the audience saying they're idiots is just egotism.

The creator failed, period.


i don't know if i buy that. that's true in a lot of cases, but not all. lots of really amazing work which has massive long-term influence goes unappreciated when it first appears. Van Gogh is the paradigmatic example of this; he died a pauper and a madman, but his work went on to totally revolutionize painting years later. or you coul look at the Velvet Underground, whose music never found a popular audience but influenced pretty much everyone for decades afterwards. when they did the big Velvet Underground reunion, Lou Reed and John Cale were having reasonably successful solo careers, but Moe Tucker was working at a Wal-Mart down South somewhere, for fuck's sake.

or look at Joe Casey's rant on Jack Kirby here:

"You brought up Kirby (could we find a better touchstone? I don't think so)... think of how maligned he was during the 70's. DC Comics basically shat on him when he was doing the purest, most undiluted work of his life. He went back to Marvel Comics and did some AMAZING work that, inexplicably, even Marvel staffers made fun of. In the face of all that, he still went his own way. I mean, c'mon... he was Jack Kirby. You think he's gonna' jump on any bandwagon?! For Christ's sake, he fucking BUILT bandwagons for a living!"

the trick is being able to tell the difference between underappreciated works of genius that are so far ahead of the curve that they can't find an audience, and incoherent crap pedalled by a self-important twat with no talent except relentless self-promotion, without the benefit of a decade or two of hindsight.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:09 / 20.09.04
"If you don't get it, take the time to read it again, enjoy it."

I don't think you got what I wrote, luka... read it again and agree.

Just kidding, mate, but I think you get my point.

Mozz is not for everyone, neither is what he's doing with comics. But it IS important. A defense of repetition is no defense at all, but an admittance upon the failure of the work. If you don't get it, that's cool. Read something else then, right?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:04 / 20.09.04
Firstly, I think Matrix II and III genuinely are a mess, and hard to understand because they're poorly thought-out, pretentious, messy, inconsistent. I haven't yet been convinced to the contrary despite reading a number of fan defences of these two films (I think the first is/will be seen as a classic of SF cinema.)

I don't feel this is a great comparison with Morrison's work, because for the most part I think Morrison does come through in the end, and rewards careful reading. In almost every case (Bible John is one exception and maybe Mystery Play is another) his "complex" work, however hard to fathom initially, does have a plan behind it rather than being a patchwork of Philosophy 101.

Secondly though, Morrison has always interviewed as a persona. Right from his fey, Morrisseyesque fictionsuit of the early Animal Man period, he has put himself forward as a creation, a projection of part of himself. It's entirely possible he's just putting on an act with this indignant contempt for the reading public.
 
 
Triplets
19:17 / 20.09.04
Rowr, I'm sorry about my outburst guys, it was totally out of proportion to Grant's comment. However, I still feel the same just not as enthusiastically.

In that mode he does remind me of the pretentious art twat, the one who screams 'but you peons just don't understand!' without asking whether he's failed as a communicator. I don't think he did with Seaguy judging from all the talk on here. However, I do think the Barb as a ground for Invisphiles was better equipped to deconstruct and examine a piece of George's work better than the general comic consumer base. I don't think this is a failing of society but rather that we as specialists - after a fashion - know coming in that we're not in for a usual comic story. Any new Morrison fans here who read Seaguy without that much prior reading of George's work?
 
 
lukabeast
19:22 / 20.09.04
"If you don't get it, take the time to read it again, enjoy it."

I don't think you got what I wrote, luka... read it again and agree.

Just kidding, mate, but I think you get my point.

Mozz is not for everyone, neither is what he's doing with comics. But it IS important. A defense of repetition is no defense at all, but an admittance upon the failure of the work. If you don't get it, that's cool. Read something else then, right?


Actually I agree with you 100% (plus that exra 10% effort given by those who state it's possible to do so). My comments were just a generalization I guess. I just spent a whole weekend trying to explain similar matters to a specicifc type of person, and can feel the frustration of GM, and I assume many other board members.

Yeah, read something else indeed.

Repetition in essense is not a defense I agree. But as you know some things will go over the head of person A, person B may be on the cusp of grasping it, person C is all over it, whatever "it" may be at the time. I guess I am pleading to group B to give something an extra reading if they are not quite getting there. Or check out a board like this to get an extra foot up, then go back.

I think we are getting to the same point Six, just taking different roads to get there, mine being the plodding, long route
 
  

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