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Sex Lives Of The ( Not So ) Rich And Famous

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
17:07 / 07.09.04
As you say. I confess that I was expecting a simple but potentially interesting answer to what I felt was a pretty simple but interesting question, from Grant and Gambit. I was surprised by Mink's immediate decision to tell me the simple facts about a state in which I believe neither of us are celebrants, and in turn by your self-conscious rudeness and Gambit's defensiveness, as opposed to, say, Nightclub Dwight's interesting and entertaining account.

However, you are quite right - this is not the place for the sort of discussion of marriage that would be in any way productive, for reasons that have just been made abundantly clear.

Gambit: I would suggest having a look at the thread. It may raise some ideas, for example that were I to be in a happy, loving relationship with Ben *and* Steve, I would have to decide which one got the bonus benefits of being my husband, which may in turn help to explain both "normal" and "default state", and perhaps more besides.
 
 
grant
17:45 / 07.09.04
Why get married?

Well, there were a few reasons.

1. I like weddings. I've performed them for many of my friends & acquaintances. Socially, I'd like to see the franchise extended as far as possible... legally, I'm uncomfortable with the way the state of being married extends into tax privilege & home ownership and all that, but can't quite figure out a workable alternative.

2. Partner is not the type to buy any, "But honey, it's for a better society!" arguments. (Or, as she would put it, rationalizations.)

2a. There were, as my better half pointed out more than once, step-children involved, who aren't really equipped to make the "better society" arguments either, even if they wanted to.

2a1. I think the stepkids having a few redneck cousins might also have been a factor in this part of the decision... many cousins, many step-parents, mommies & daddies having strange live-in boy- & girlfriends. So there was possibly an element of classism in that. (Or, in social worker-speak, "That's a client lifestyle, and I don't want my kids being part of that.") But it's also hard to deny the whole body of research about stable, two-parent homes = better performance in school/life for kids. Whatever the reasons for that might be.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:16 / 07.09.04
Legally I'm uncomfortable with the way the state of being married extends into tax priviledge & home ownership and all that, but can't quite figure out a workable alternative

Well how about just removing all the legal advantages from the statute books, so everyone's treated the same, whether gay, straight, single, cohabiting, whatever ? It does seem absurd that in the Twenty First century, with the divorce rate being what it is, that governments generally still feel they ought to " reward, " or otherwise, a situation that's really none of their business. Marriage looks to have moved from being something that's " expected " to a much more personal decision recently, ie, if you want to do it then fine, but no one's going to think the worse of you if you don't as a couple walk up the aisle, so shouldn't the legal situation reflect that fact ?

Rotting my own thread here I realise, but it'll probably get back on track at some point, and if it doesn't, oh well.
 
 
grant
18:42 / 07.09.04
Well, "marriage" is the legal definition of "family," so you run into problems when that kid who always threw spitballs into your ear in third grade and wound up living downstairs from you has the same access to your estate as the person who slept with you for 30 years.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:14 / 07.09.04
I'm married. And I like laydees.
As far as I can tell from my reading of Dave Sim, that makes me one of them darn homosexualists.
I'm confused now.
 
 
iconoplast
22:43 / 07.09.04
Right.

Single for a few months now, but I'm thinking about making the leap up to Barbelith single, as soon as I can find time to memorize some Morrissey lyrics.
 
 
Nobody's girl
23:10 / 07.09.04
I've been with my partner for 3 years. My partner's from the US and I love the different responses we get from US friends and UK friends about our relationship. Typical US response- "Aw, you guys are so great together." Typical UK response- "It's after five years you really get sick of each other." Maybe I'm missing some nuance of US social interaction but they at least seem sincere and positive.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:03 / 08.09.04
But it's also hard to deny the whole body of research about stable, two-parent homes = better performance in school/life for kids.

So, Xoc and Ganesh, for example, would be bad parents, because they cannot get married, and without a marriage license will not provide a stable, two-parent home?

Well, "marriage" is the legal definition of "family," so you run into problems when that kid who always threw spitballs into your ear in third grade and wound up living downstairs from you has the same access to your estate as the person who slept with you for 30 years.

So, Xoc and Ganesh should not have a stronger claim on each other's estates than that kid who threw spitballs in their collective, part-elephantine ears, because they cannot get married, and thus cannot be part of a family?

Sorry, Jack, but a degree of rot is permitted in the Conversation, and I am just bewildered by these ideas...
 
 
Baz Auckland
14:27 / 08.09.04
Together for most of the last 4 years... with marriage being a possibility next September if 'plan A' fails and I need Polish citizenship...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:04 / 08.09.04
Haus you have to accept that people want security. Should we personally give up our rights because other people don't have them? By your logic you should be giving money away to charity and living in a one bedroom flat in Dalston. My point is that most of the people in this thread probably have questioned their attitude to marriage and for one reason or another have decided they want to do it- that might be because it gives them next of kin status, incredibly important when you have children, it might be an entirely frivolous reason but it is more practical for a straight couple to get married. If you want to object to the disparity between het and gay rights I suggest you go and do something more productive than talking about it on barbelith. I'm sure there are groups you could join and leaflets to hand out.
 
 
grant
15:05 / 08.09.04
So, Xoc and Ganesh, for example, would be bad parents, because they cannot get married, and without a marriage license will not provide a stable, two-parent home?

Well, not exactly. I tend to think anyone who's been together for a certain length of time *can* provide a stable, two-parent home. In my home state, we called them "common-law marriages" (although these aren't recognized any more, for whatever reason).

In my specific case, I was sort of walking into something that was already in progress, though. The kids were already there (and were included in the wedding vows). So the marriage thing, in part, was sort of a process of naming something a family without having to put in the same amount of time.

And that naming-this-thing-a-family is, as I said upstream, a franchise I'd like to see extended to pretty much everyone who wants access to it.


Well, "marriage" is the legal definition of "family," so you run into problems when that kid who always threw spitballs into your ear in third grade and wound up living downstairs from you has the same access to your estate as the person who slept with you for 30 years.


So, Xoc and Ganesh should not have a stronger claim on each other's estates than that kid who threw spitballs in their collective, part-elephantine ears, because they cannot get married, and thus cannot be part of a family?


No, they *should*. That was an example of one of the legal repercussions of eliminating marriage privilege that I can't see a way around. We want specific people to inherit/have intimate access to us & our goods, and we have to label them in some way. A will might be enough for inheritance, but that's not the only kind of access next-of-kin gets (and only counts if you take the time to draw one up). So maybe we could name someone next-of-kin in some legal way that we didn't call marriage, but in effect it'd be the same thing, as far as I can tell.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:35 / 08.09.04
My point is that most of the people in this thread probably have questioned their attitude to marriage and for one reason or another have decided they want to do it-

I don't contest this for a second, nor do I criticise them for so doing. I simply commented that I, personally, find the whole thing a bit confusing. If you are saying that we should never ask questions about this because it is more "practical" - that is that practicality is the one argument that cannot be opposed - for straight people to get married, then I feel I must also point out that it is also by that standard more practical to *be* straight in the first place, which has some implications for the behaviour of a number of people on Barbelith...

I asked a question, Grant very kindly answered, I found some of his responses bewildeirng, he very kindly clarified. In essence, marriage was an opportunity, as you say, for him to take the "practical" course - a handy legal package whereby a unit based around a man, a woman and some children get a bunch of useful legalities sorted out with a single signature. This dovetails neatly with the thread in the Head Shop, which might also address some of Grant's perplexity as to how that might be extended to others.

The idea that one has to be entirely concordant with some undetermined right-on benchmark involving poverty, chastity and obedience before expressing the slightest concern about the status quo I give as much attention as I feel it merits. In fact, about two sentences more.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:02 / 08.09.04
Don't injure yourself beating up on those straw men, Haus.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:15 / 08.09.04
Which men, Jack? If you take the time to apply a bit of that ol' basic literacy magic, I think you may find the above largely free of straw men and beating, barring a quick kicking addressed to the status of practicality as a debate-ender. However, I am sure you took time and devoted sweat to thinking up that oh-so-killer line, so it seems a shame not to reward it.

Oh! I am slain! Tents the wound it makes, blahdyblah, ever a black charnel, blahdyblah, take this precedent, blingdeblee, better to be fortunate than wise, aaargh, dies, the end.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
19:20 / 08.09.04
I'm Married to the Mob.
 
 
pomegranate
19:28 / 08.09.04
ah ha! so nobody's girl, is, in fact, somebody's girl!

i am single. but having sex. and you know what, i like it that way. (does that count as "barbelith single," flyboy? or do i need more angst?)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:39 / 08.09.04
I don't think you're *allowed* to have sex if you're Barbelith single... it takes up valuable time that cpould be spent totally getting on with this girl whose boyfriend is a dick whom she doesn't like really...
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
21:50 / 08.09.04
I have just, or am just about to, become single after around 3 years (rounding up).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:00 / 09.09.04
...having sex. and... i like it that way. (does that count as "barbelith single," flyboy?...)

Dude, that's pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
10:25 / 09.09.04
single but not enjoying it.
sexually active but infrequently.
i've lost my mojo.
 
 
imaginary mice
11:20 / 09.09.04
I'm somewhere inbetween.

Due to my current "boyfriend" being a bit weird and terribly unreliable I have no idea if I'm single or not. He doesn't reply to the text messages I send him and I haven't heard from him for 3 weeks but that's happened before, it's just the way he is. I am "keeping my options open" though...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:24 / 09.09.04
I was surprised by Mink's immediate decision to tell me the simple facts about a state in which I believe neither of us are celebrants

Are you talking about me? And if so, can I ask you once again not to use my real name?

As you observed, this was a light-hearted sort of a thread, so I didn't put a great deal of thought into my answer, and I certainly didn't intend it as the kind of slap on the wrist you seem to have found in it. It just seemed to me that your statement of blank incomprehension was a bit full on, so I was just listing obvious reasons why marriage isn't insane, which seemed to be one way of looking at 'utterly opaque'. If you'd already thought of my simple facts, then it wasn't 'utterly opaque', was it? In which case, someone might have thought you were being nasty about their decision to get hitched, which I'm sure you wouldn't want.

Whether or not it's a gold star for being normal (and that makes of normal a very broad church - perhaps you'd care to be a little more precise) - has nothing to do with whether those things are things people might want. If you mean that everyone should eschew marriage and its legal benefits in order to force a reconsideration of the status of marriage and heteropatriarchy or whatever, that's interesting. In the same breath, whether or not I am married has little bearing on whether I have views on what marriage is or why I might buy in to it, or why others do.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:12 / 09.09.04
You're late for the party, Mink (and sorry - brainslip; have requested changes to my post and your quote of my post) - various nice young people have shared with me their reasons for marrying, and I have been duly enlightened, and resolved to keep discussion of the more complex elements, such as what constitutes normality (which I touched on in my response to Neil Gaimbit) in the Head Shop thread mentioned above.

"Opaque" was being used in its dictionary-definition meaning of"not transparent", and thus "difficult to understand". I must with the utmost respect point out that if I had wanted to say that I found the idea of people of my approximate age and culture marrying insane, I would have used a word that means "insane". I simply find it difficult to understand, and I appreciate your attempt to help me to understand it better, as I do Gaimbit's, Grant's and Anna's. I still find the concept incoherent and a bit icky, but then that's what the Head Shop is for.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:52 / 09.09.04
If you are saying that we should never ask questions about this because it is more "practical" - that is that practicality is the one argument that cannot be opposed - for straight people to get married, then I feel I must also point out that it is also by that standard more practical to *be* straight in the first place, which has some implications for the behaviour of a number of people on Barbelith...

Oh MY GOD. Admittedly I wouldn't marry Mr. Collins but that doesn't stop you from being Lizzy Bennett.

Of course the practical argument can be opposed but in some cases you're actively taking a risk if you don't marry. Actually that's true in quite a lot of cases, usually those involving other family members. And I certainly didn't say that you shouldn't ask questions but I also think that you are wilfully ignoring a hundred answers to those questions.

The suggestion that you shouldn't get married because some people can't isn't an argument that's valid when there are specific reasons for a marriage to take place. If we had an effective system here that allowed for unmarried couples to have equal rights to married couples the same details wouldn't apply.

And I don't even know how to address that last point, I can't believe you even wrote it down. Of course it would be more practical to be straight, but 1)people can't effect things like that as you and I both already know quite well and 2)I hardly suggested that being practical was everything, I simply pointed out that sometimes you have to take that option, if only to look after your own rights.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
19:17 / 09.09.04
I am so going to dance at your wedding, Haus ...
 
 
Sekhmet
19:58 / 09.09.04
Hee hee!

I'm married, 7 years.

My reason is that I'm an only child and don't like sharing. Mine mine mine!

I hope someday to tattoo HANDS OFF! across his forehead.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:20 / 09.09.04
Surely his forehead is the last of your concerns?

Whisk: could you also get me a toaster? Like, a really expensive one...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:21 / 09.09.04
Or on HIS IMMORTAL SOUL
 
 
Haus of Mystery
20:28 / 09.09.04
S'all a bit Hellraiser Alex - how about on the iris, so if anyone else dares to look longingly into his eyes...
 
 
Sekhmet
20:46 / 09.09.04
Iris tats would be quite tiny. You know anyone with a hand steady enough for that kind of fine work? Lemme know...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:00 / 09.09.04
Beats me why any gay men want to have kids and Ganesh and I would be shit parents, so take note any social workers who visit to suss us out. But I am very much in favour of marriage, if it means making a lifelong commitment to another person, of either gender, for better or for worse, for richer or for periods on the dole. It comes with advantages and a pretty obvious downside and I think it's a personal choice we should all be able to make, as long as we really mean it.

As far as kids go, the needs of the child are paramount and, assuming two people can give a kid a stable and loving home which will allow him or her to develop to its full potential, I could care less about a bit of paper. The bit of paper commits you to a partner, not to staying together for the child(ren) primarily, although that would be the easier route.

The research would suggest that lesbians do extremely well in raising happy, well adjusted kids and it's early days for researching how gay men do. G and I are good gay uncle and fairy godfather material but it would be unwise for us to pursue it further. Too fond of the perv lifestyle and the booze. Which probably only means we'd still do a better job than many of the hetero parents of our acquaintance. But neither of us could be arsed and neither of us feels the lack.

I'm the kind of person who does better, all things considered, with a regular partner. Doesn't have to be heteronormative bliss though. Monogamy is improbable. Honesty, responsibility, and regular visits to Self-Awaria are crucial. But I was happily single for a decade, very happily single. All the time knowing that some fucker would break through my defences in time and that would be fine, as long as he was a Hindu sex god.

Ganesh and I never have sex anyway cos I'm saving myself for Sax. That has to be such a disappointment when I finally trap him in a lonely backstreet up North and have my wicked way...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:05 / 09.09.04
Ganesh and I never have sex anyway cos I'm saving myself for Sax.

Are you insane, man? What about Steve?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:17 / 09.09.04
Sorry, reply to S.

However, I have to agree with Haus about this. The idea that one finally walks up the aisle with a happy smile on one's face to be accepted at last by bourgeois society, having finally outgrown all that adolescent resentment to do with the church and the state and the Halifax building society, and having accepted that the " holy " institute of marriage is in fact the way forward, and that all those silly gripes you might have had about the whole insitution have been proved just wrong, very wrong, as you genuflect, quietly, to the creepy old priest, or whoever it is in the registry office...

I'm sure no one's saying this, but still, balls to that line of argument, and the horse it rode in on.

I remain, fairly clearly, almost morbidly single, but that's off the point.

Unless any of you married types wanna make an issue, right ?
 
 
HCE
22:24 / 09.09.04
Why balls if nobody's saying it? Like, prophylactic balls?

I forgot to mention that the Chinese give you loads of money when you get married. Not just any random Chinese, but the related ones.
 
 
The Falcon
23:39 / 09.09.04
Why would you not want to get married?

Drink, pressies, party, etc. Tax-breaks, too, apparently. I know 'snot fair, and I totally support equal rights for gay couples, common-law, etc.

That said, having attended my girlfriend of 8 'n' a bit months (but I've known her 7 years) brother's wedding, should we get married I discovered I really don't much like any of her relatives outside the immediate family on one side. So they really can't come.
 
  

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