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Cultural appropriation in magical practices.

 
  

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Unconditional Love
11:49 / 06.08.04
The action of cultural appropriation is most often seen as a new age phenomena, but i also believe it is applicable to many so called occult societys, their is a basic strip mining of spiritual mythic structures and recontextualising of said structures inline with an occult societys own spiritual/magical agenda, in turn disrespecting said cultures spiritual practices and misrepresenting them.

thelema comes to mind, oh and especially chaos magick.
 
 
sine
12:23 / 06.08.04
Poppycock. Cultures love being strip-mined, recontexualized, appropriated and subverted. Parade of the conquered and all that - still a parade, eh? Makes them feel like they're flying.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:28 / 06.08.04
Poppycock. Cultures love being strip-mined, recontexualized, appropriated and subverted. Parade of the conquered and all that - still a parade, eh? Makes them feel like they're flying.

No they fucking don't.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:06 / 06.08.04
Good topic Wolfangel

From this site on the appropriation of Native American spirituality:

"There is much to learn from cultures of different Native American nations, each of which has its own distinct ways and beliefs. But there is a difference between learning about a tradition, and learning the tradition. Non-Indians can draw inspiration from Indigenous beliefs, much as we can learn wisdom from the ancient Celts, St. Francis of Assisi, European Wiccans, Chinese Taoists, or African beliefs. But to actually adopt someone else's religion as your own, and especially to distort it and mix it with other traditions in a hodge-podge, borders on spiritual irresponsibility. It is more spiritually responsible to respect the autonomy of Native religions, and to respect how they survived a federal ban (lifted in 1978), than to turn religion into a weekend hobby."
 
 
Tamayyurt
17:26 / 06.08.04
No, I agree with sine. Culture (in general) and religions, mystic traditions, and philosophies (in specific) thrive in this sort of soup. They need to be spread and mixed. The Greeks and Hebrews did it with the Egyptians (who in turn did it to whoever came before) and then the Romans did it to all of them. Their gods and rituals mixed and matched. They took what they wanted and threw out the rest. China, Korean, Japan, Tibet all took Buddhism from India and rearranged it and mutated it to fit their own cultural habitats. In the Caribbean animistic religions from West Africa fucked Catholicism and created a bunch of half-breed babies (Santeria, Palo, Voodoo, Candomble.) People convert to (appropriate) Protestantism all the time, they put their own spin on it, and you get Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Mormons, JW’s, and fucking Snake Charmers.

There’s a difference between being respectful and just timid. Culture is a living, changing, evolving thing and it begs to be played with.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:00 / 06.08.04
No, I agree with sine. Culture (in general) and religions, mystic traditions, and philosophies (in specific) thrive in this sort of soup. They need to be spread and mixed.

That’s a massive over-simplification of a hugely complex process though isn’t it. I’d differentiate between syncretisation happening as an organic process within a culture, often taking place over hundreds of years and led by differing spiritual needs and personal experience, and the arguably consumerist pick and mix approach to the worlds spirituality that you get in new age and chaos circles.

I’d agree that there’s a difference between being respectful and timid, but there’s also a difference between engaging deeply and genuinely with a living religion, and being a clueless arrogant twat dipping a toe in the water and thinking you run the pool. If you are dealing with living Powers, they are the ultimate arbitrators of what goes and what doesn’t. You can expose them to different ideas and keep them updated with new versions, but it’s up to them whether they want to dance with it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:35 / 07.08.04
That’s a massive over-simplification of a hugely complex process though isn’t it

Well it's a little strange and rather begs the question what makes a culture?
 
 
gotham island fae
15:59 / 07.08.04
there’s also a difference between engaging deeply and genuinely with a living religion, and being a clueless arrogant twat dipping a toe in the water and thinking you run the pool

And such is ever the case in nearly any human endeavor, spiritual or secular. Until 'our' (read: humanity's) presence leaves this planet, TERA, and joins with oblivion or god (take your pick) these immature behaviors and disrespectful appropriations of the other around each of us will likely continue. If one is enlightened/master of the 253rd degree of hooha/just plain self-aware, one may choose to enter relation with other cultural representations/phenomena in a respectful yet dynamic manner that is beneficial to both sides.
 
 
sine
00:32 / 08.08.04
Some half-asleep thoughts:

First off, apologies: my first comment was intended with tongue firmly in cheek. Nevertheless, I believe it contains an element of truth.

I directed my statement towards 'cultures', not individuals. I think that creative cross-fertilization, however muddle-headed, is good for cultures. It can yield productive synthesis, and at the very least, keeps the contents of culture available for examination. As to whether or not this process bastardizes the culture in question, religious or otherwise, I think it's obvious that it generally does, but no more so than the layman's understanding of whatever mono-tradition they happen to adhere to.

I encourage people to dabble; I discourage them from trying to write authoritative books on any subject they don't know shit about.

I would argue that this kind of information age strip-mining is just an accelerated version of the organic-syncretic process at work, acting within smaller groups. Those processes might yield screwed-up ideas about the original doctrines, or might yield valuable comparative insights.

In advocating the marketplace model of spiritual bricolage, I'm unashamedly saying "Show me what you've got." If the process of appropriation and cultural co-opting does anything, it brings into focus the general issue of authenticity, which from my spiritual perspective means 'utility'(by necessity deeply personal, perhaps more personal than any other aspect of acquired culture).

Dunno if I added anything useful. Maybe I'll be back after I have cuppajoe.
 
 
*
02:50 / 08.08.04
One of the problems with misappropriation is that it stems from a sort of simplistic reification of the notion of 'culture', which is where I see this thread heading. People who "have great respect for the native american culture" seem to think that there is one monolithic thing which is native american culture, rather than a hugely complex system of beliefs, practices, aesthetics, ideologies, etc. which changed vastly over the many thousands of years that native americans have inhabited the two continents, varies enormously by region and social group, is viewed differently by different individuals within the groups, and is still changing today and likely will continue to change on into the future. (Anyone who argues that 'native american culture' is dead or completely integrated hasn't done enough research.)

One of the good things about fascination with the exotic is that it can lead one to learn more about other people's beliefs and practices. A problem arises when someone who has become fascinated with a particular practice or belief system or aesthetic from another people attempts to represent that people. Members of a group have the right to represent themselves in the way that they wish to be represented. The biggest culprits here, of course, are anthropologists. Fortunately there's a big movement in anthropology to be critical of this sort of thing and reform this tendency within the discipline as a whole.

But this is misappropriation in the context of the larger society. Insofar as magical systems, while I don't think we need to go so far as to argue that misinformed use of a symbol or practice or belief from another system for one's own use is somehow good for the "culture", it might be valuable to examine whether it's good for the magical community.

One might argue that there's a huge waste of energy involved if you have to fight a collective unconscious notion of what a symbol represents, just because you've chosen to be ignorant about the nuances when deciding to use it. I'm not going to use a swastika as a sun cross because there's a huge number of people who see it as a symbol of nazism, and no doubt that influence would be inappropriate to my particular work. Similarly, while I think one of the veves of Papa Legba looks really neat, I'm not going to get it tattooed on myself because among other things Legba is a really complicated system of beliefs and symbology which is much better understood by his proper followers, and I don't have the time to commit to studying that entire system in great enough detail to understand how he and his veve operate.

Of course, maybe there isn't a collective unconscious, and so long as the magician understands a symbol in a particular way, and uses it that way, that's all that matters. But I'm not anxious to set myself those obstacles in case that's not the way it works, you know?

Of course, it could be argued that all use of magic by people from an industrialized, materialist 'culture' is to some degree appropriation, but there's a line to be drawn somewhere. I think there are really nonspecific things which sort of belong to everyone. For instance, while the word 'shaman' comes from an anthropological effort at transliterating a title for a specific kind of magical practitioner of a Siberian group of people, the notion of a person who walks other worlds in order to negotiate with nonordinary forces on behalf of the people, who is chosen through some sort of spiritual ordeal, and possibly empowered by a special relationship with spirits, is very widespread. If you start with that and make everything else up, without trying to be anything you're not, I'd say not only are you guiltless but you'll probably end up with a very tight system which works extraordinarily well for you because it's built on symbols which come out of your deepest held beliefs about magic and the practice thereof. If there's anything beneficial that chaos magic has to teach, it's that one doesn't need the "legitimacy" of claiming a system of thousands of years of descent.
 
 
Epop Bastart the Justified, I
03:14 / 08.08.04
The Hindu approach is pretty simple: come and get it.

We'll remake your gods in our system (consider that Christ has been adopted by the Kriya Yoga lineage, who simply state that he learned his stuff in India, and lived there after the Crucifiction) and, well, we're *FOIST* our gods on you - every where you look a Ganesh or a Kali on a lunchbox or a rave poster.
 
 
the cat's iao
05:48 / 08.08.04
Hmm, I don’t think cultural appropriation is exclusively a new age phenomena (although various systems of new age thought and practice may rely on it)—like someone stated above, the appropriation of aspects of foreign cultures into a specific culture has been going on for a long time. Perhaps it has been happening for as long as groups of people have come together to form cultural structures. I mean, whatever culture is, it certainly seems to be constructed on various blocks that fit together to form its overall content and influence. I doubt that any of these blocks are exclusively original, but are either bits of other cultures’ practices and beliefs—in whole or with alteration, or are reprocessed aspects of the specific culture that retain some form of stability, but also may be mutated. I don’t feel that culture is static, because it is made up of the individuals within it, and individuals are entities that evolve over time; however, there certainly are systems within cultures that have some stability even as the host culture remains dynamic.

In some ways I agree that the mingling of cultures is healthy as it does lead to greater diversity and understanding. However, cultures can also be destroyed by being subverted by other cultures. It is a fine balance, I think, and one that is not easily maintained. Even a host culture can be irrevocably altered by its appropriation of bits of other cultures.

I once gave a casual reading of some book (can’t recall name or author) the argument of which was that things like magic and spirituality are devoid of meaning, power, and purpose when transposed outside of the culture in which they originated. Indeed, this thesis has some merit. A good example is that of a shaman. I could proclaim myself a shaman and base my shaman practices upon some cultural model; however, if I am not imbedded within that culture, then it is likely that my practices are going to be largely a pointless endeavour since much of a shaman’s purpose and power is based solely upon the position and role s/he plays within a specific cultural milieu. Indeed, it is often this milieu which empowers the individual shaman in the first place!

On the other hand, I tend to feel that practice and belief are not merely a cultural phenomena, but a personal experience as well. Thus, it all depends on what the individual wants to get out of these things. This means that some eclectic picking and choosing might be more empowering than trying to devote one’s self to a specific set of religious and/or spiritual practices and beliefs. I also wouldn’t say that picking and choosing is merely a reflection of consumerist ideals (although I do think that it can be that): to think so is also “a massive over-simplification of a hugely complex process.”

Also, I think there is a give and take interaction amongst aspects of cultures. ImpLad mentions Buddhism above, and here is a good example. It’s not merely that certain people took what they wanted from Buddhism, it is also that Buddhism was taught and spread in certain ways by its devotees which reflected some aspects of indigenous cultures in order that the more general practices of Buddhism would catch on a flourish. Indeed, as has been mentioned above regarding Xtian offshoots, we can see that it’s not simply that some people took Xtianity and altered it, but that some people gave Xtianity to others in altered forms. Tied in with this, interpretation and understanding are two key factors that are going to strongly influence both the giving and taking of such and such practices and beliefs.

Now is all of this or any of this disrespectful and misrepresentative? Well, yes, sometimes it certainly is, but it isn’t always—how could it be? Again, much of it is going to depend directly upon specific instances of appropriation and representation with respect to agendas, goals, aims, means, desires, deeds, and so on.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:14 / 08.08.04
muppet.

many hindus are disgusted by the use of there sacred symbols on lunch boxes t shirts and toilet seats etc, try a search on google on cultural appropriation and hinduism to see.

the atheist materialist use of sacred symbols in this way turning them into articles of pop culture is seen by some as a direct attack on spirtual systems, this kind of blatant disregard for cultural religous meaning is not only damaging to the culture or idea of culture, but also to the people of that culture.

also the appearence of these objects is happening at a time when india is fast becoming a greater economic power, strange that, dont you think?
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:15 / 08.08.04
the main point about cultural appropriation for me is consent. has a culture thats art works, spiritual or magical traditions given consent for for there cultural ideas to be used by somebody outside of that culture in a certain way, if they havent the practices you may be indulging in are misrepresentative of that culture, disrespectful of that spiritual hertage and basically theft and some would argue a continuation of colonial attitudes within western culture towards exterior cultures, as if one uber culture can subsume ever other culture it encounters via mediation.
 
 
sine
21:57 / 08.08.04
How does 'a culture' give consent? Does that mean getting the thumbs-up from a single individual that follows the practice in question, or a majority vote, or what?

I think only people can get worked up that you've appropriated 'their' culture. 'Cultures' are bigger than that, and don't care if you take bits of them. We all recognize that some sensitivity is required, but no group of individuals is ever going to give one hundred percent approval to an outside group using their cultural currency, in-or-out of context.

I say 'steal reverently'...like Indiana Jones.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:27 / 09.08.04
Three articles which may be of interest here:
Cultural Appropriation and Responsible Eclecticism and Interfaith Exchange and the Western Overculture
Also Neo-imperialism and the (mis)appropriation of indigenousness

from the second article:
"While it is true that cultural sharing has always taken place, much of the practices that indigenous peoples take issue with have little to do with true sharing. Cultural sharing is just that-a cooperative effort between two or more groups of people. It is a good-faith exchange that benefits for both parties. It requires a mutual respect and a common understanding along with forward vision and a desire to expand the horizons of both groups.

Appropriation, on the other hand, is a horse of an entirely different color. At its core, appropriation is nothing more than a dressed-up word for stealing. In fact, many victims of cultural appropriation have denounced the phrase, claiming that is de-emphasizes the true nature of what they consider a crime. Appropriation occurs when one party takes upon itself to uncover and absorb the practices of another culture without proper understanding, training, respect or permission. And more importantly, there is no exchange. Appropriation is completely one sided. It fails to honor the inherent integrity of the source culture by violating it, dissecting it, and lifting bits and pieces from it without an understanding of the whole.

It can be very difficult for western neo-pagans to understand why many people are sensitive about the subject of cultural identity and the crime of appropriation. This is largely due to the fact that we are working under the very assumptions that indigenous cultures object to. Western culture has, for better or for worse, instilled in us certain value systems, morals, and political philosophies that color the way we look at the world. This is, of course, part of the purpose of culture-it anchors us to the world and to each other. But it also becomes such an ingrained part of who we are that we take it for granted. We assume, wrongly, that the cultures that we wish to engage with are necessarily built upon the same symbols and philosophies that we have inherited from our own culture, simply because we fail to realize that there could be another way. Our ideas about fairness, gods, morals etc are things we don't usually take time to consider. They are ideas we have inherited and they simply are. These assumptions provide huge obstacles for those wishing to engage in cultural exchange. Before we can truly engage other cultures, we have to be able to identify some of the major stumbling blocks that we may have in seeking the other."

IMO, the author's characterisation of appropriation as one-sided is central to the issue, as it tends to "privilege" one form of representation over another. Decontextualisation tends to go hand-in-hand with an appeal to Universalism - the notion that all spiritualities are ultimately, saying the same thing, but this assumption is often based on a superficial understanding of the system being recontextualised. For example, its become a common practice of western magicians to interpret anything and everything in terms of how it 'fits' on the Tree of Life. If this is not done with care, the system being so 'fitted' becomes just another layer of "symbolism" to be interpreted solely within the context of modern qabalah and the system's own 'context' is effectively neutralised, silenced, or distorted. Chaos Magic also continues this trend, with the notion that all techniques are similar and that the belief (i.e. the context) which surrounds those techniques is irrelevant. Certain aspects of contemporary neo-shamanism also promotes the view that the 'techniques' of shamanism are easily accessible by anyone as a form of consumer commodity.

I could say much more - appropriation is a very emotive issue for those who've engaged with it. If you don't think it's an important issue, it might be interesting to reflect on 'why' various peoples - Native Americans, Moaris, and Aborigines (to name but a few) do.
 
 
_Boboss
11:35 / 09.08.04
look at what they're doing that looks good let's do it

hey, look at them over there they're doing OUR thing oy stop that you lot that's our thing

well, yes we saw you doing it first but it's making us happy and your gods are easy to talk to and seem to welcome us

don't care! OUR gods! fucking quit it right fucking now for no good reason [...magic war]

or even worse, someone (c) arguing on behalf of group (a) because they never knew or gave a toss about what group (b) were doing anyway

why doesn't (c) fuck off and stop trying to tell everyone how to behave?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:18 / 09.08.04
why doesn't (c) fuck off and stop trying to tell everyone how to behave?

Blimey. I think the Temple's idiocy quotient has rocketed sky high with that one. Astounding. How the hell can you read the articles that AoG just posted and then distill it down to something as inane as that?
 
 
_Boboss
13:42 / 09.08.04
well, not read them, clearly. think i may have my ABCs a bit muddled, but there remains a salient point i think: you're allowed to do what you like. i can invoke the spirit of a black cat to help with luck. should the high priest of the black cat appreciation cult hear of this and consider it an inappropriate act of cultural appropriation, he can fuck off, and the issue, as far as i would be concerned should such a situation arise, is at an end.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:51 / 09.08.04
For me, this is the key point:

Appropriation occurs when one party takes upon itself to uncover and absorb the practices of another culture without proper understanding, training, respect or permission.... It fails to honor the inherent integrity of the source culture by violating it, dissecting it, and lifting bits and pieces from it without an understanding of the whole.

If you feel a deep pull towards a powerful living tradition from a culture that is not your own, and are prepared to totally immerse yourself in it, fully step into its territory on a long term basis, go all the way with it, get trained up within that tradition, get a full understanding of what it is and how it functions, then in my opinion that's fair enough. Ultimately a marraige of sorts will probably take place between that culture and what you (both personally and ancestrally) are bringing to the table. But it will evolve naturally and organically, as any good relationship should, not be forced or artificially simulated.

What is under criticism is the attitude of a utilising another culture's inconography as window dressing to give ethnic flavour to a static comfort zone operating system that you may already be familiar with, such as chaos magic or western quabbala. With no attempt to actually learn the culture's tradition, operating system and magic, and only a superficial understanding of what it is you're tapping into.

Chaos magic is really guilty of this because it tends to encourage the view that all systems of magic run from the same operating system, and the basic principles of chaos magic are the stripped-down version of that operating system. There's the idea that the basic mechanisms remain the same and all that changes, culture to culture, is the iconography. Which is just plain wrong. If that were the case then I wouldn't still be a beginner in what I work with after almost five years of training. This aspect of chaos magic makes it like the fucking AOL or Microsoft of occultism.
 
 
illmatic
13:52 / 09.08.04
Yeah, Gambit, but your personal feelings aside, we're talking about a wider phenomena - one that happens in the wider context of post-colonialism and general recuperation of everything that can sell into the the capitalist marketplace. If you don't think it's an issue, take a walk around the British Museum, next time you're in London.
 
 
_Boboss
14:45 / 09.08.04
well, i've been there before - loven those mummies. it was free to get in even, bucking the trend for things associated with capitalist marketplaces.

i'll read the articles when i've time - but it's magic being spoken of too. entities may come and go where they please, by those who please to call them.

i think this might be a point, possibly where we disagree:

'It fails to honor the inherent integrity of the source culture'

humbug to that i say - don't care where you're from or what magical system you're using, that system was designed by a bunch of cunts not terribly unlike you and me. if you can show me any culture's 'inherent integrity' then maybe i'll disagree, but i imagine even truly-funky tribal shamanism of the grooviest untouched variety has been put to ends that really might not be that different to the imperatives of western culture's hi industrial colonial control programmes: desire to expand territory, get some action, vanquish 'enemies', dissolve problems, gain access to resources to ensure continuation of the society's lifestyle etc. the desires and motivations for these actions are often greed and fear, not really endowed with more 'integrity' than can be observed in any culture. all that can be said is that the shaman speaks to the spirits (which may well be quite dissimilar to the spirits his father used to journey to), to help himself out with whatrever's on his mind.

if i find a conceit like 'chi' useful to explain things, rock a bit of tai chi few times a week to boost my energy, what more formal and established rules should i follow to be more respectful to 'chi' and the holders of the 'chi' copyright? what might happen to me if i don't? i only read the word 'chi' in a book, (perhaps i heard the word for the first time on blue peter) same way i came across concepts like 'druid', 'woden' and others that presumably due to where i come from i could practice with without experiencing any postcolonial guilt at all.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:59 / 09.08.04
You're really not following this at all are you.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:42 / 09.08.04
I think the use of the term "integrity of a system" refers to the way that cultural traditions, for instance Vodou, Santeria, or Tantra - if you want specifics - operate along certain very distinct lines. They have their own ground rules. There is a very sophisticated set of stuff to learn, engage with and train up in. Each of these systems has its own integrity. There are paralells between all systems of magic, obviously, but working within one of these individual systems is an experience that is utterly unlike working within another.

There are some very close paralells between Santeria and Haitian Vodou, but they are not the same. They are distinct paths with their own integrity. Their own set of stuff to learn about, their own specific techniques, their own distinct skillsets, their own unique framework, their own conception of the universe and filter on reality. There are even parallels and common points of reference between Vodou and Tantra, but that doesn't mean that a Tantrik adept and a Houngan are exactly the same thing. A living magico-religious tradition has its own integrity.

There is stuff within these systems that you won't get anywhere else. Stuff that isn't in any book. Stuff that is not chaos magic, and doesn't follow the same rules that chaos magic would have you believe are the baseline mechanisms of magic. You don't get anywhere near any of that stuff, you don't even scratch the surface of it, if you just skim off the "cool ethnic imagery" and apply it to a basic chaos or western trad model of operating. You have to really immerse yourself in this stuff for years to learn even a fraction of what there is to learn.

Superficial cultural appropriation is deeply offensive on several levels and to several parties, principally because you're not prepared to have a relationship with what you are taking from on its own terms. You're walking in thinking I know best, "these foreign sorts don't know much but their imagery is cool", and trying to make very sophisticated and very distinctive approaches to magic conform to what you happen to believe. Because of course, everything ultimately can and should be understood in terms of the western mystery traditions and chaos magic, because we know best. Gah!
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:49 / 09.08.04
Gambit, your post reads to me like you're using a different definition of "integrity" than that used in the article - you seem to be referring to integrity in terms of moral sense, rather than integrity in the sense of something complete, unbroken or generally not messed around with, which is what I think you'll find the author is referring to.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
16:08 / 09.08.04
Hoo boy.

I agree w/ Gypsy's definition of integrity - that is, the existence of an integral structure within a tradition. "Integrity" does not mean one culture is somehow more pure or true or holier than another, it means that each culture is, or has, its own holistic entity with its own understandings, rules, and constructs.

Chaos magic is still working from the "ONE TRUE" model that drove so much Modernist appropriative activity, except in place of one true *value* chaos has replaced one true *absence*. "Everything is permitted" because there is ultimately nothing there.
Needless to say, this is just as limited a viewpoint as the dogma chaos was reacting against.

There's a difference, I think, between perceiving similarities between cultural symbols and believing those symbols interchangeable. Ultimately you DO NOT KNOW what, for example, Kali is in the Hindu context unless you IMMERSE yourself in that context. And the resulting experience may be entirely different than Kali handled from a Western perspective (or a nullifying "chaos" perspective).

Immersion is not the only sort of cultural exploration, though. You can still enter into and learn from a culture without a) immersing yourself completely or b) merely skimming the surface. The problem is, this requires a great deal of openness and the ability to overcome a natural tendency to associate. The minute you've decided to correlate one culture-specific experience with a pre-recorded experience of your own, you've diluted the former and are not experiencing it for what it "is."

I've had a strong connection to Lakshmi, the Hindu preserver/wealth goddess, for some time. I was in a store the other day that had printed Indian satchels with various dieties upon them, including Lakshmi. Blatant cultural appropriation right there - buy this, hippie, and be ethnic!


But could it not also be used as a genuine magical tool? You could consecrate the bag to Lakshmi, empower the symbol, "recharge" it - but it would be recharged with my experience of a diety not indigenous to my culture, using a symbol that was stolen for profit from the diety's original culture. How murky is that?
 
 
Skeleton Camera
18:19 / 09.08.04
(Ed. Note: there were supposed to be "devil's advocate" HTML tags around that last paragraph, but the board read them as actual tags. Wonder what that causes?)
 
 
gale
19:03 / 09.08.04
In the example of Lakshmi, you bought the bag because you have a relationship with Lakshmi. She means something to you.

This is very different from buying the bag and walking around with it telling all of your friends, "oh yeah, this is some Hindu goddess named Lakshmi--isn't it cool?" Or even worse, searching Lakshmi and a few other deities on the internet, memorizing the details, and pretending to know all about Hinduism.

Once I went to a centering prayer workshop (centering prayer is a really neat form of meditation, sanctioned--but never, ever mentioned--by the Church). Two of the attendees were these women who said they were "healers in the Native American tradition" whatever the heck that means. They made their livings from doing these Native American healing sessions, but I do not believe either of them was anything other than an indigenous idiot. They probably went to this class to see if they could use anything, discovered they couldn't, and left before lunch.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:44 / 09.08.04
there is a phenomena that is similar in martial arts, the modification of styles and forms of traditional chinese martial arts by westerners, because it feels more comfortable to them or looks better to them or they think it should work a certain way.

the traditional structure of chinese culture is never taken into consideration nor are the practical factors, the majority of external chinese martial arts that are taught and avalible are taught because they work, ie there founders never died using them to defend themselves, they survivied on the battle field so to speak.

a majority of modern modifications to traditional chinese martial arts generally have not been tested in this manner not only could it lead to them being uneffective forms of self defence, but also it becomes apparent that there creators have no respect for chinese culture nor for there students whom they may well be teaching ineffective forms of self defence.

this has become especially true for tai chi which is a martial form, with added health benefits, it is often seen as something entirely different due to the hippie pretentions that have been attached to it.

there are exceptions to this with the modifications the peoples republic made to the arts, which were intentionally designed to remove the martial capacity of many of the arts.

i was recently at a display of martial arts, various schools were displaying there styles, an elderly chinese gentlemen had been invited to judge, the predominant organisers at the display started to display there styles, this was done with alot of aggression and the kind of faces that are pulled in kung fu films, the elderly gentlemen got up and walked into the crowd leaveing the square, i could see why. martial arts are an art.

i was struck recently by certain factors as well at womad at one end of the festival there were charity organisations asking for aid with a variety of issues from various parts of the world at the other were the traders selling all sorts of ethnic hand crafted goods at over inflated prices, tydyed capitalism.

throw in the land detonated crystal clusters at the local new age shop mined by child labour and this truly is the new age.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:11 / 09.08.04
excuse my cynicism.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
23:57 / 09.08.04
(I actually didn't buy the bag, FWIW.)

Many a year ago, when I studied martial arts, the instructor brought in none of the philosophy or sense of "art" that characterizes mature practice. The whole thing was couched in terms of aggression (both offensive and defensive) and we were even told, at times, "This isn't ballet" - which seemed, even to my young mind, to be missing the point entirely.
And here comes my beef with Western interpretations of Taoism (popular, anyway) - the Tao is not a justification of however you live your life, as I've often found it to be used. It is a way of being in the world that is foreign to the Western-modernist mentality. But it's been turned into yin-yang symbols and a sort of mellow justification tool.
 
 
DecayingInsect
11:21 / 10.08.04
If cultural appropriation is now a major faux pas does that mean we should confine ourselves to Anglicanism?
 
 
SteppersFan
11:37 / 10.08.04
Shit man, is there really anything that bad about being shallow and vacuous?

Yeah, I know you won't get the real deep heavy shit you can get in, say, Anglicanism... but so what? Am I gonna get that stuff anyway? Am I fuck. I'm a dad! I don't get deep into anything that isn't to do with cartoon characters or human waste products!

I'm not saying I'm in favour of buying up the time and products of a lot of brown* people who can't afford a family car or a subscription to Grand Designs magazine and leaving nothing behind but an empty Coke bottle and a crushed B&H box. And I'm certainly not saying I'm going to make regular trips to the bush to drink fermented goats urine or whatever it is they do -- my weekends are full enough as it is!

I'm just saying there's only so much time and effort most people can put into magick -- not you leisured Barbelite Templars of course -- and if that looks shallow, or seedy, or tainted with the sort of depressed ennui that only a lifetime of indentured drudgery to ungrateful, pock-marked, TV-ravaged off-spring with no independence of thought or gumption not like we had in the sixties oh no just look at them now with their Early Learning Centre wooden toys and Ikea climbing frames, we never had that in Essex! -- well, it probably is.

* Charver Magick -- the next big thing in post-modern occultism! Watch star chaos magicians learn the secrets of the universe from wise old men propping their beer bellies on the suddenly uncertain initiates' heads, and feel the thrill of being extracted from the council estate by the cops as you are introduced to the real meaning of shamanic flight!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:22 / 10.08.04
If cultural appropriation is now a major faux-pax does that mean we should confine ourselves to Anglicanism?

Couldn't be bothered actually reading the thread properly eh?

This is not a thread saying "hey kids! you can't take inspiration from other cultures anymore because its not politically correct!" it is a thread looking at the various issues around cultural appropriation in an effort to find more sustainable models of interacting with other magico-religious cultures that benefit all parties involved.

What the fuck is so difficult to understand about that.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:25 / 10.08.04
Occultism and thinking don't always have to be mutually exclusive.
 
  

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