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Astonishing X-Men #3

 
  

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I'm Rick Jones, bitch
11:10 / 31.07.04
Henry should never be cured - there are no easy cures for some things, and sometimes the good people of the world have to endure very bad things. THAT's henry's arc.
 
 
The Falcon
11:52 / 31.07.04
It'll not last, if so.

They always cure the Thing, but he goes back to being made of wall.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:23 / 31.07.04
I don't think that Henry will go back to his old body. I think that it's all about false hope for Henry, and exploring how he'd much rather not be a mutant. Look at that cover - it's an image from his past in a broken frame. The way that he's clutching it suggests that he's lamenting that past, which he can't go back to. It's a very sad image.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:30 / 31.07.04
They've already done the thing where Henry goes back to normal but reverts to Beast form in X-Factor, by the way. It's not really necessary to do again - Henry is more interesting in Beast form, and everyone loves him that way. He's not going to change.
 
 
Spaniel
07:31 / 01.08.04
I don't actually want him to change, and it has to be said that I agree with you both - I've always been in agreement with you both.

Since we were born.

Seriously, Flux, your interpretation of the teaser image also occurred to me, but I was having fun playing with an idea. And now you've ruined it.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
09:41 / 01.08.04
I've always dug the Kirby look, and hated the ape look (he was crap in the cartoon, basically, and it's stuck on me). But cat form is the bestest form. Oh yes.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:51 / 02.08.04
Re-read this issue last night and savored every line, every panel like fine wine. This was the best of Whedon & Cass's 3 issues so far, IMO. In the final panel, does anyone else think Cassaday drew Emma like he was channeling old Paul Gulacy, by any chance?

And Cassaday's Beast looks the bestest in this issue, methinks. (compared to the previous 2 issues, in which Hank looked a little more like Eek The Cat)

I don't think the woman with shades talking to Fury had green hair, I think she had black or dark brown hair. Your typical stealthy super-cool babe SHIELD agent.

The Beast/Logan scene really kicked ass. "I used to have a mouth you could kiss...I could walk down the street...what do I do, wait til I'm lying in front of the students, playing with ball of string?"
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:59 / 02.08.04
What a brilliant issue. Few other people could write a script with so much talking and so little action which rocks so hard, and Cassaday's pencils really helping to ratchett the tension.

I'm desperately hoping that because the focus of this issue has been on Beast and the cure this means he isn't going to do it. Even though the law of sod would mean that if Joss didn't do it the next writer would make him hairy again, that's not the point. From what I know of X-Men continuity the Beast has been a massively underused character forever, highlights of his life include, a) going blue and hairy in the Seventies, and b) that's it. Grant hinted at a different take on the character, I hope that that's a ball Joss chooses to run with rather than going back to what has gone before.

And I too must give a 'huh?' for Scott saying 'Jean' at the end there. Desperately hoping it's not the case. Again, X3 is at least a year away, if she has to come back because Marvel are under the deluded idea that her absense will harm their chances of selling comics to kids who like the movies but have no intention of reading the comics, then get Joss to bring her back at the end of his run. I suppose we should be thankful that Marvel didn't make Austen write the next issue of New X-Men and have Jean step out of the freaking shower.

The teachers fighting line, best... dialogue... ever. Even better than 'boombastic', oh yes.
 
 
Spaniel
19:02 / 02.08.04
I have to say, I'm not sure that this episode is any better than the last two. They've all been great, imo.

Perhaps people are finally settling in to the run.

Really looking forward to next ish. The preview looks v.exciting.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:26 / 02.08.04
Grant hinted at a different take on the character, I hope that that's a ball Joss chooses to run with rather than going back to what has gone before.

But, milady, I think Grant's take, in the long run, had very little to do with fur and everything to do with character and Hank's relationship w/ the group. As long as Joss stays true to that, I won't be that bothered. Yeah, I will miss the implications of the *beast* and the opportunity to explore difference, weird body issues and furry relationships, but, y'know, I'm not going to get too hung about it.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:10 / 03.08.04
I've been reading X-Men comics all of my life, and I'm almost certain that no one ever really portrayed Henry as a highly neurotic emotional mess before Grant came along. Before then, he was always played as comic relief and as a doctor. The body issue stuff was always hinted at, but for the most part either never fully developed, or he was a little too well-adjusted to really angst about the situation.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:22 / 03.08.04
I suspect that's why Grant brought up the hormones thing in his first issue, to explain why his version was going to go away from the norm. But then previous writers have tended along the lines that he was a human who looked like a beast, whereas Grant was more that he was an animal...
 
 
_Boboss
13:29 / 03.08.04
when he hung with the avengers he was one of the more human and mixed-up of them. had quite the close friendship with wonderman, the two of them were often to be seen rolling back to avengers mansion at dawn after a few too many. i always took his loquaciousness to be cover for essential insecurity - he's vv clever of course, but he looks like a beast. showing off his ostentatious lexis was his way of specifically reminding himself and everyone around him that he wasn't to be treated like one.
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:56 / 03.08.04
Read this last night, and really liked it – art’s very good, and so’s the story.

I know this might be an unpopular question, but is anyone else, like me, enjoying this more than the last year or so of Grant’s run ?
I think the storytelling’s more clear, and devloping in a more understandable fashion (I note this thread contains more speculation about what’s coming and less people having to ‘explain what’s going on’).
You might argue that’s because Cassaday’s storytelling’s better than, say, Silvestri’s was in ’Here Comes Tomorrow’, but I think that the way the various plot elements are developing is more clear on a script level than some of Grant’s stuff in recent times (such as the end of Seaguy, which looked like pages were missing or something, and like a microcosm of Grant’s X-Men run, started out clearly, then suddenly looked all truncated).

But I digress a bit : good, solid, stuff, with some funny lines and well-done action sequences, adding an interesting chapter to the series. And doesn’t that sound like a description of a good episode of Buffy ? No coincidence, methinks.
 
 
Spaniel
16:49 / 03.08.04
Dave, I prefer it to much of Greg's run, but I'm very conscious that Greg laid the foundations for much of what Joss is doing.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:30 / 03.08.04
I think that Joss Whedon is a much better writer than Morrison - he's so much better with structure and pacing, which are Grant's biggest flaws. I like to think of Astonishing X-Men as being a collaboration of sorts - Whedon is building on a foundation that Morrison built, developing many of Morrison's ideas. It's a bit like how Whedon was the guy who created all of the Buffy characters and was the primary idea man, but he had a staff of writers who fleshed things out - in this case, Whedon is playing the Espenson/Fury/Noxon/DeKnight/Petrie/Kirschner/etc role.

I love Grant for his ideas and wit, but ultimately I prefer this more disciplined approach, especially after the mess of NXM year three.

Having Cassaday draw the entire 12 issues is a big bonus too. There's no jarring stylistic changes, so we never leave the world that they are making on the page. It's a bit like "what if Frank Quitely drew an entire year of NXM?"
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:33 / 03.08.04
I'd really like to think that other mainstream comic writers look to Whedon's work on AXM as an example to follow, in regards to grace in pacing and plotting.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:55 / 03.08.04
Maybe, but I think it's horses for courses. I don't necessarily think Whedon's any *better* than Grant just because he's tighter with plotting and pacing. It's just a different approach, more SOLID and less fluid. What I prefer depends largely on my mood, and, fluxus, yr definition of what constitutes good writing possibly says more about you, and yr tastes, than it does about Grant's ability to transfix, transport and transform his readers.

Which is the most important thing.

Transfix the SQUID!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:20 / 03.08.04
I'm reluctant to compare the two since the first three issues of New X-Men are definitely a cut above Astonishing so far - but I suspect Whedon is unlikely to leave the kind of plot holes (minor and major) that Morrison doesn't really care about - ie, we won't see Lockheed get crippled in one issue and show up fine a couple of issues later with no explanation, and we won't be told there's a link between SHIELD and Kavita Rao but never have that explained...

The best thing about NXM, overall, was the characterisation. That's the one thing that was consistently done well. So far, that's what Whedon's continuing...
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
08:50 / 04.08.04
I think that Joss Whedon is a much better writer than Morrison

No he isn't. You are objectively wrong: most of Buffy could have been written by apes with easy access to a copy of Clueless and a few Anne Rice novels.

In retrospect, NXM was fucking tight.
 
 
DaveBCooper
09:57 / 04.08.04
‘Tight’ seems a bit kind, to my thinking. Sometimes I had to rely on Barbelith or the recap pages to figure out what the hell was going on – see my earlier comment about people here having to explain stuff. That’s not tight, it’s slack – so much of the story seemed to rely on getting information from elsewhere that it was more like story-suggesting than storytelling.
Though this was more at the end of the run than the start, which oddly made Grant’s comments in Animal Man - about how his stories always seem to lead up to a big ending but don’t ever reach that – sadly true.

And hey, I didn’t say Whedon was a better writer than Grant, just that I’m enjoying it more than the last year of Grant’s run.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
09:57 / 04.08.04
Stop baiting.

Everyone knows Oranges are better than Lemons.
 
 
Spaniel
10:34 / 04.08.04
No, Macgyver, you are objectively wrong.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:15 / 04.08.04
I don't think the merits or otherwise of Buffy are being discussed here, particularly as Matthew already said that Whedon's work there was in creating the setup for other people to write. Therefore, In those terms, the fact that monkeys could write it is a sign of his qualities as a writer. What is it about New X-Men that you find exemplary of better writing than Astonishing X-Men, Radiator? Examples, not adjectives.

Otherwise, I am afraid you must be objectively wrong.
 
 
The Falcon
11:58 / 04.08.04
Whedon is certainly not a better high-concept writer than Grant, particularly if you put their X-Men's against one another. And I find Grant's dialogue better; smarter, funnier. He does though have a unique rhythm and pace which I'd suggest is not as accessible as Joss's.

I did like this last ish very much indeedy, that said.
 
 
The Falcon
11:59 / 04.08.04
Oh, and the silent panels were used expertly therein.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:52 / 04.08.04
Whedon is certainly not a better high-concept writer than Grant, particularly if you put their X-Men's against one another.

Yeah, but that all falls apart when you set up Morrison's body of work against Whedon's. I think that in this respect, they are on roughly equal footing, with Morrison being better at the dodgy-yet-compelling wacky pseudoscience concepts, and Whedon being much better with coming up with simple ideas which resonate deeply with its (much larger) audience. I think that Whedon is more like Stan Lee/Jack Kirby in that he's good with taking ideas from older material and mixing it in perfectly with the zeitgeist and lives of ordinary people. Whedon makes pop icons, Grant deconstructs pop icons.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:12 / 05.08.04
Maybe, but I think it's horses for courses. I don't necessarily think Whedon's any *better* than Grant just because he's tighter with plotting and pacing.

I was responding to flux, Dave (I even address him later on in the post). And, if you check the quote above, I was describing Whedon as "tight", not Grant. Grant's stuff is never tight. It's shifting, hard to pin down and often a little confusing. But that's fine.

And I don't think Grant's charm can simply be boiled down to "wacky super science", Flux.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:23 / 05.08.04
Oh shit, much confusion. You were addressing Radiator.

Well, that's okay, he's just wrong. Solid structure and pacing are practically Whedon's hallmarks. He's an elegant writer. As evidenced by pretty much all his Buffy episodes and all of Astonishing so far.

And what the shit does Anne Rice have to do with Buffy?

One thing I love about Whedon is his ability to suddenly turn a slightly comic baddie on his head. Ord comes off as pretty silly until you see his clenched fist dressed in that frightening, syringe-covered knuckle duster. It's such a good, violent image.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:26 / 05.08.04
And I also see that you were comparing Whedon's...err...conceptual ability to Grant's, Flux. You weren't reducing his work at all. Sorry.

I really shouldn't post as soon as I wake up.
 
 
_Boboss
11:46 / 05.08.04
i'm not joking, i have a very large problem with that concept.

are you going to fight me too? no, you'd go all ninja on me, i couldn't take that kind of hurt.

you will never see me naked again.

just the ones that stick in my mind from the last issue. real super-howlers, so bad they could have come from angel season iv.

not to say that the issue overall was bad, it was the best yet, and saved 'astonishing' from failing the three issue test. but you know the bit where cyclops goes: kitty make the dinner, emma go and check on the babies, hank tidy up your lab, logan get me a beer, i'm off to have a poo - are they going to have that every issue?


and circling on-high, the falcon peers down and with a glance isolates the prey:

'accessible'

thankfully, i have good access.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:56 / 05.08.04
C'mon Gambit would you've really dropped it after three? I know for a fact you read ALL KINDS of shit.

But, yeah, this was an improvement on the previous two, a much more fluid and satisfying read. But Morrison has his fair share of howlers too, non?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:03 / 05.08.04
Aside from the Emma/Scott nakedness line, I don't see what's wrong with any of those lines (but then again, I loved Angel S4) - what don't you like about them, Gambit?

And yeah, none of them are as bad as that bit in Imperial where Beast recites physics as he beats up the Shiar - that was Beast-in-the-shitty-90s-cartoon bad.
 
 
_Boboss
12:51 / 05.08.04
first one, well i had no idea kitty was meant to be such a haughty, unfunny geek.

second one translates as: so you're still angry then? no i wasn't angry at all, i just went for him because otherwise there'd have been no action this issue. (these wee fights with wolverine are silly - every time you get a snikt you know there's no way he's actually gonna hit someone with them, cos they'd just be dead. that bit where they slapped into each other in mid air, but the claws just ....missed...) And, nice as the art is to look at, he still can't do the fights. watch the bit with wolverine and beast again. they fly through the wall hank's underneath and the oop! he's on top. so the coolest moment of the scrap, beast flipping up from underneath, has been lost between the panels. peh.

if there was a scrap to be shoehorned in it was between cyke and fury: you ain't earnt the right boy. er, hello that's the whole point? i'm a mutant? can knock this thing out the sky by looking at it? i was born with the right grandad, slap!

ah, i know i shouldn't do this, i'm just working myself up. i enjoyed the issue but have now talked myself into getting a smell off it. previews for the next look good, just hope the jean thing's a dream otherwise there's a whole hella lot of overcooked dialogue coming our way.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:59 / 05.08.04
first one, well i had no idea kitty was meant to be such a haughty, unfunny geek.

Say what? First, she was being pretty witty about it. Second, she's totally in the right to see something wrong with Emma Frost teaching ethics to children! Emma has been a career criminal for a large chunk of her life, and even as an X-Man, she's still a person with rather questionable ethics.

I think that you're just being humorless about the humor, man. Joss Whedon in mocking genre conventions with sly humor shocker, right?
 
  

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