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Alt. hip-hop

 
  

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pointless and uncalled for
11:59 / 26.07.04
In the meantime, your next filthy download action should be directed at a bit of Acey Alone.
 
 
Seth
12:46 / 26.07.04
Amen, MacGyver.

I think I've waited my whole life to say, "Amen, MacGyver."
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:14 / 26.07.04
Y'know I have a strip-club in my basement, but building the damn thing cleaned me out, so I can't afford any strippers.

Big up to the Freestyle Fellowship seldom. 'Inner City Griots' and 'Project Blowed' make my rockin' world go round (even more than fat-bottomed girls).
 
 
illmatic
13:37 / 26.07.04
Y'know I have a strip-club in my basement, but building the damn thing cleaned me out, so I can't afford any strippers.

Next time I'm in Brighton mate, pays the train fare doesn't it? I might make it a tour along the coast actually, stop off in Southampton, Portsmouth...

Seldom's post above reminded me of something - anybody heard the Kid Acne LP? I heard a track of his on the Lexoleum comp and it was brillant, best thing on there, I thought. "Rap Dracula" - Any fans? Very "underground" in a discordant, humorous, English way -ideal music to whirl around a pole to in coastal bars...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:19 / 26.07.04
Neanderthal is as neanderthal does, 'wreck...

And I think you're crossing your wires with reference to sex in a Spinal Tap stylee - there's nothing wrong with songs about sex, whether explicitly or implicitly. There's plenty wrong with sexist or misogynist lyrics, but there's more to music than lyrics - in fact one could easily argue that music is nothing to do with lyrics, and that it's possible to strongly disapprove of the lyrical content of a track while considering it one of your favourites.

But I get that you're probably not interested in trying, and are looking for something new - in fact, it appears that you've asked for info on alternative style hip hop due to being sick of certain forms of cliched misogynist/macho posturing, and been swamped with people telling you you're wrong for looking for this and it doesn't exist. With respect to Fly and others who know a hell of a lot more about hip hop than I do - it's not for mysticwreck to justify his position to you in a request thread he started. If you think he's horribly wrongheaded in the basis behind his request, it's up to you to consider whether you're rotting the thread by posting your arguments where they may be unwanted. I know if I started a recommendations thread for (for example) on politically sound rock n' roll, I wouldn't necessarily want a slew of Motorhead and Rob Zombie fans stepping in and stepping up when all I wanted was recs...

I'd argue that posting links to the older threads where this argument has apparently been done to death is sufficient to avoid threadrot, but that's up to you. I leave now! Run, Jack, run! It's not safe for you here!
 
 
+am
22:02 / 26.07.04
har har, thanks jack for getting my back.
didn't realise i'd open such a can of worms... and whup-ass!
just wanted a few funky hip hop albums that wouldn't piss me off and not enjoy them because of the overtly sexist nature of the lyrics or overtly commerical (as in lazy, massmarket etc.) beats, thats all... perhaps this is my problem and perhaps it stops me from appreciating ALL the good shit out there but at the moment thats where i'm at, and by the looks of things there's still a lot to be getting on with, knowwhatimsayin?
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:43 / 27.07.04
Okay, it kind of kills me to do this because I have such lingering hatred for the group in question but... 'Hell Yeah' by Dead Prez feat. Jay-Z is hot, and probably along the lines of what you're looking for. Dead Prez have solidly right-on political lyric credentials. I think this is a remix, not sure.
 
 
rizla mission
09:27 / 27.07.04
as do the more contemporary offerings of Non-Phixion and Necro (extremely juvenile gore-core rapping by ugly white boys).

?

would that be the same Non-Phixion who released some fairly-ok-but-not-mindblowing politically conscious post-Wu Tang kinda stuff on Matador records a while ago...?

Cos they sounded about as far removed from your description as it's possible to be..

(not trying to make a point or anything here - just confused and curious..)
 
 
illmatic
11:54 / 27.07.04
From what I've heard of Non Phixon, that part of the description would apply to Necro only. NP had an okay album out last year - Premier single remix, nice lyrics and samples that kind of thing...
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:03 / 27.07.04
Yeah - the album's called 'The Future is Now' or something, and I own it. Yes, they are 'political' in a paranoid conspiracy-theory way, and the production is excellent throughout (Premiere, Large Professor and Pete Rock together for the first time since Illmatic) but it's marred by, like i said, juvenile gun-posturing, and a caveman-like view of women. It's music for teenage boys basically, and it's a big dissappointment after the stellar Black Helicopters single. Necro just raises the bar that bit further.
 
 
TeN
19:19 / 27.07.04
we all have so much great music we want to share... why not share it?

contribute.
 
 
misterpc
07:53 / 01.08.04
I'll second the sentiment that anything that MF DOOM does is worth putting your money on the counter for.

And I'll pitch in with a quick shout for The Coup, who are by no means the most innovative group in the world. However they float good beats and interesting lyrics with a political edge, which there just ain't much of these days.

And is it just me, or did El-P disappear up his own jazztastic backside with that High Water record?
 
 
Seth
11:10 / 01.08.04
Nah, it strikes me as more well intentioned but hamfisted, trying to do something his Dad would appreciate. I mean, Poppa Meline is on one of the tunes, and of course, "Daddy played jazz when he drank it's no accident." We can never truly know what goes on in the head of Ol-Producer, but it's safe to say...
 
 
TeN
14:16 / 01.08.04
I'm not even sure it qualifies as hip-hop, but Prefuse 73 is the shit. He's a hip-hop producer who on his own records makes electronica by cutting up rappers rhymes and burying them in the mix - making them part of the sonic texture, not the focal point. There are some straight forward vocals as well, mostly from notable alt. rappers such as Aesop Rock and Mr. Liff.

I can't recomend it enough.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:44 / 01.08.04
Hmmmm, I always find a whole album by Prefuse drags a bit.

But, yeah, I quite like the man's stuff in isolation.

It isn't hip hop though.
 
 
Math is for suckers!
03:11 / 02.08.04
For folks into that bleak future rap sound like El-P, I'd recommend Rubberoom. They only put out one album, Architechnology, but its damn near one of my favorite hip-hop record of all time. The lyrics were dark and dense and touched on everything from outer space to vampires. Their real strength was their production though. It always seemed to me to be what the soundtrack to Blade Runner would've been if Ridley Scott had been into rap. All sharp, hard hitting drums and string samples and sixteen different dj's throughout the album. Really truly great stuff. After Rubberoom split, their producers, The Opus, continued to put out their own albums, which are also top notch, but not quite the same caliber.
 
 
Char Aina
13:05 / 04.08.04
Last I checked one of the members of Outkast had a strip club...

In his basement.



like, uh... so?

for me to believe that to be a bad thing you are going to have to convince me that stripping is a bad thing, and i dont believe you can do that.

hell, i know girls with poles in their bedroom who'd
probably jump at the chance to go to a party at a house like that.

how do you know that he doesnt only pretend to be watching girls all the time, secretly dancing for andre?
if the world knew he liked to shake it like a polaroid picture of ru paul in some heels and a diamante t-back, his album sales might suffer.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:40 / 04.08.04
toksik, you might want to consider the context of the post you're responding to. Outkast are often cited whenever people pull that "most hip hop is horrible and sexist, but not this stuff!" bullshit, and it's never really been clear why - there's no logic to it.
 
 
TeN
14:21 / 04.08.04
Outkast (especially Andre) is extremely mysogynist and unintellectual... I find that the Love Below can be unlistenable at times. The monologues especially are always a turn off for me. This, however, does not diminish the quality of their music in any way. They are still among the most original and innovative group in all of hip-hop, even if they're lyrics can be offensive at times.

I think that the lyrical quality of hip-hop is still stuck in what the public wants to hear, as it's a relatively new genre... just as the lyrical content of rock and roll was mostly about nice cars and women when it was first born, hip-hop is no different, it's just that now-a-days, profanities are much more common. But that's not a statement on the genre, that's a statement on the times. Alot of underground/alternative hip-hop has mature, intelligent lyrics, and I think it's only a matter of time before the mainstream community matures as well.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:48 / 04.08.04
Nnngghhh.
 
 
No star here laces
16:02 / 04.08.04
come away, come away. there is no dignity in poking the unfortunate with sticks and though we have tried, they cannot learn.

best to leave them to it mein freund. switch on the image inducer.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:06 / 04.08.04
Underground/alternative = grownup/clever
Mainstream = misogynistic/stupid

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR
RRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

PLEASE can we move on??
 
 
Seth
16:31 / 04.08.04
I'm not sure if you can call hip hop a genre. It strikes me as more like a religion.

As a religion it's pretty new, but as a genre anything which is near the three decade mark is fairly well established. It's older than I am!
 
 
Char Aina
19:01 / 04.08.04
Outkast (especially Andre) is extremely mysogynist and unintellectual... I find that the Love Below can be unlistenable at times.

really?
what so fiercely upsets you about andre's lyrics?
 
 
_pin
21:15 / 04.08.04
It's a pleasureing the ladyezz thing, isn't it? They'll call before they come, and want the ladyezz consent and enjoyment, where the assumption is that in most cases rappers don't, because they have no respect for women where Outkast do.

Because they must be compensating for their tiny willies by acting in such a namby way, and thus are safe around our girlfriends, obviously.
 
 
TeN
03:59 / 05.08.04
"what so fiercely upsets you about andre's lyrics?"



"Ahhh, such sweet sound
The Fiddler on the Fuckin' Roof"
- Good Day, Good Sir

unintellectual: note that what is being played in the background is not the fiddler on the roof, it's Bach. The whole British mockery thing in this sketch is childish and stupid as well.



"Caroline! See she's the reason for the word "bitch"
I hope she's speeding on the way to the club
Trying to hurry up to get to some
Baller or singer or somebody like that
And try to put on her makeup in the mirror
And crash, crash, crash.. into a ditch!
...
Now go on the raw sex, my AIDS test is flawless
...
I wanna see ya support bra not support you!
...
Crazy bitch
Bitch, stupid ass bitch
Old punk ass bitch, old dumbass bitch
A bitch is a bitch, just a bitch"
- Roses

Mysogynist: you can't even argue that one really.





Now granted, compared with the rest of mainstream rap, Outkast is quite subdued... if not intelligent and respectful. All I'm saying is that it's not "family fun time" as is suggested by the record labels - playing Hey Ya on nickelodian, etc. ("I don't wanna meet your mama, I just wanna make you cumma! Come on kids, sing along!").
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:15 / 05.08.04
So now you're arguing for their censorship from kids TV? Jinkies!

"I fight my way to front of class
To get the best view of her ass
I drop a pencil on the floor
She bends down and shows me more…"

Busted - 'What I go to school for'
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:54 / 05.08.04
Yes, the idea that rock'n'roll has evolved and is now mature and never misogynistic oh no sir, never, is just one of the misconceptions that need pummelling here...

One of the notable things about 'Roses' is that with the exception of Big Boi's verse, it's misogynistic in a peculiarly indie rock way. A lot of hip hop usually relates to women by saying "all the best-looking women want to have sex with me constantly", whereas on 'Roses' Andre is saying "this great looking woman won't have sex with me but that's okay because she's a shallow bitch who doesn't appreciate guys like me who are AUTHENTIC and like girls who are AUTHENTIC (and quirky)". This helps explain why The Love Below went down so well with certain indie fans, who don't see that attitude as misogynistic in the first place.

I'm a bit confused as to the whole "unintellectual" thing though. The example cited is a skit, it's supposed to be funny and goofy, not demonstrate Andre's knowledge of classical music. At the same time, if you think he's mocking British people, I think you've missed the fact that Andre is obsessed with playing this 'English gent' figure (as a lot of his recent wardrobe attests) - there's humour there, but mostly it's something he aspires to.

But more to the point, who wants pop music to be "intellectual" anyway?
 
 
No star here laces
00:42 / 06.08.04
Oh crap, it's like picking a scab, really it is.

A question, y'all...

I would avoid using terms like "the majority of mainstream rappers" if you don't want to look like a complete FULE. Because, oh I dunno, there's a bit of a difference between say Fabolous, Eminem and 50 Cent to name just three.

And if you want to say modern mainstream rap is filthy and misogynist, I might suggest the use of examples. I know it's a little radical, but you may find it strengthens the argument somewhat. Except that would actually involve properly listening to some of the music you're casually writing off, wouldn't it?

Secondly I think you need to make a distinction between the use of the word "bitch" and misogyny. Because, really, it isn't the same thing...

If the word "nigga" is no longer a racist epithet in the context of hip hop, and the word "dog" can mean "friend" and, oh I dunno, I could go on and on.

Why does the word "bitch" necessarily have to be literally interpreted as denigratory? "Bitch" in hip hop usually just means "woman" in exactly the same way that "nigga" just means "man".

Now obviously sometimes "bitch" is used in a denigratory fashion, but just because a rapper uses the word, doesn't make him misogynist. And anyhow, the words "ho" and "bitch" have been fairly thoroughly detourned, oh about 6-8 years ago now, by a variety of female rappers.

Because you know, the following lines are really misogynistic, right?

"A real bitch is all I want, all I ever had (yeah, c'mon)
With a glock just as strong as me
Totin guns just as long as me, the bitch belongs with me"

And that's 10 years old.

Or to take a more recent example, I bet the kind of thing you particular like to hate on might be a song like 50's "P.I.M.P." because that's popular, confident, swaggering and performed by the biggest scariest black guy out there at the moment.

Here's a quote:

"Girl we could pop some champagne and we could have a ball
We could toast to the good life, girl we could have it all
We could really splurge girl, and tear up the mall
If ever you needed someone, I'm the one you should call
I'll be there to pick you up, if ever you should fall
If you got problems, I can solve'em, they big or they small
That other nigga you be with ain't bout shit
I'm your friend, your father, and confidant, BITCH"

Now I'm not about to be claiming 50 is a feminist, but you can surely see that there is, I dunno, a certain amount of ambiguity in this song...

As opposed to your typical Oberstian howl of rage at all the unreasonable women out there who for some reason don't want to suckle at the singer's crotch for all eternity (while wearing quirky glasses, naturally).
 
 
Char Aina
04:46 / 06.08.04
Andre is saying "this great looking woman won't have sex with me but that's okay because she's a shallow bitch who doesn't appreciate guys like me who are AUTHENTIC and like girls who are AUTHENTIC (and quirky)".

thats not at all how i read it.
i would say the song is about andre meeting a potential lover, finding her more concerned with the width of his wad rather than the hang of his wang, and deciding not to pursue the engagement.

so we kinda agree.

where we disagree is in your thinking she turned him down. andre chides her for being so concerned with his financial standing ("you sound like a prostitute pursing") and i see that as ending their conversation/courtship.
sure, she might still thave turned him down for not being in the NBA.
he's been famous a while, though. he probably had enough cash to buy her dinner and diamonds if he had wanted, even without "ballin" for a living.

i guess i see this song as being more about one girl and her materialism than andre's frustrated desire, and that seems to mainly stem from the difference of belief over who turned who down.

what is the alternative andre suggests to the life caroline leads? does he think she should become his bitch full time without the promise of big NBA money?
no.
he suggests she "come back down to mars" and "quit chasin cars". to me, he wants her to chill the fuck out and have fun while she fucks her youth away.

its a good message, i feel.

if i meet a woman who is immediately and overly concerned with my earnings, loaded or not, i will probably respond by taking the piss and promptly looking for a more fitting conversational companion.
 
 
Char Aina
05:11 / 06.08.04

Mysogynist: you can't even argue that one really.


you'd think.

i do agree that the line about flawless aids testing seemed a bit unnecessary. i certainly wouldnt ever even contemplate describing a woman as a protitute for whatever reason, and sure, that troubles me some. andre is not doing it gratuitously, though, and that helps me a little. he sees in caroline a woman who uses sex as a source of income, and 'prostitute' certainly describes that, however insensitively.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:19 / 06.08.04
It would really help if people could tell the difference between Big Boi and Andre, wouldn't it? In terms of who sings/says what on 'Roses'? Yeah.

toksik, you've pretty much just proved my point about the whole "not recognising that attitude as misogynistic" thing. Thanks!
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:04 / 06.08.04
SO MOVING ON.....

Here's some more fun-time hip-hop reccommendations:

Radioinactive & Busdriver - The Weather: Last years most underrated release, a joyous mix of toytronic bleeps and farts, and bizarro speed rap, courtesy of LA's finest. The most fun hip hop album since 'De La Soul is Dead'

Shapeshifters - Planet of The Shapes: Ridiculously lo-fi collection of sci-fi rantings and star wars samples recorded in peoples basements and parks, by insane LA collective. Features Circus one of the worst/best MC's ever.

Gravediggaz - 6 feet Deep: Fairly slept on early 90's horror-core album produced blindingly by Prince Paul, featuring (among others) a pre-Wu RZA masquerading as 'The Ressurrector' on vocal duties. Quirky, varied production and hilarious OTT lyrics produced with tongue firmly in cheek. Features all time classic 'Bang Your Head'

Infesticons - The Battle For Gun Hill Road: Mike Ladd produces skronky 'concept' album about struggle for supremacy between 'Infesticons' and 'Majsticons' for the soul of hip hop. Features loads of ace guest MC's, and genuinely out there production. Part of a trilogy natch.

This years faves, Madvillainy and The Pretty Toney album have already had props a plenty on this thread, but they're still nigh essential purchases.

Anyone else want to share their joy...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:28 / 06.08.04
Flyboy: "toksik, you've pretty much just proved my point about the whole "not recognising that attitude as misogynistic" thing. Thanks!"

Reeeeeal nice. So your argument is that indie rock (by the way, I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that phrase. Everytime you use it leaves me scratching my head trying to work out what bands/albums/songs/music you're making reference to) showcases a particular type of misogyny (the "If you won't fuck me you must be too shallow to see how cool I am" school), and that this attitude isn't actually found to be misogynist by indie rock fans, hence their patronage of the music. Thereby implying that said indie rock fans also display this attitude in their own lives. toksik (politely) disagrees with you about whether your example constitutes misogyny, and rather than discussing it further, you write back with a snide one-liner citing him as proof of your theory and an example of a proto-misogynist indie rock fan. Ad hominem much? And pointing at someone who disagrees with you and shouting "See? See?" is just kindergarten.

'Laces, I've got to disagree that you can compare the reclamation of the word 'nigger' in hip hop with the use of the word 'bitch' in hip hop. The former is used by black people about black people, the latter is (generally) used by men about women. It's misogynist. Personally, I think it's misogynist that the word has been reduced to refer to "woman" rather than "malicious woman", but there ya go.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:01 / 06.08.04
It's not ad hominem - I was dismissively dismissing toksik's entire post, not his person. The biggest problem with his post is actually that he doesn't seem to have noticed that there are two people in Outkast and that they're not always saying the same thing, despite the fact that he's replying to a post of mine that actually says with the exception of Big Boi's verse, it's misogynistic in a peculiarly indie rock way.

Regardless, my main point was that for some reason a lot of people who like 'Roses' (and other Outkast work) don't seem to think there's any misogyny there and would even conclude, like toksik, "I think it's a good message" even though the song ends with the repeated refrain "crazy bitch... crazy bitch!" and includes Andre fantasising about a woman's death. These are the same people who would castigate other more 'mainstream' rappers for doing the same, and I don't find this position coherent. So I look for explanations - if anyone else has a better one, I'd love to hear it.

On the flipside, Jack, what do you make of Laces' claim that the words "ho" and "bitch" have been fairly thoroughly detourned, oh about 6-8 years ago now, by a variety of female rappers? 'Cos he's right, I've heard the records...
 
  

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