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Alt. hip-hop

 
  

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+am
01:13 / 17.07.04
yo! i'd like some good hip-hop please, which doesn't feature the same quite-good sample repeated over and over while some guy talks about how great he is in a misogynistic fashion. i heard the new Kanye west tune jesus Walks and i like that a lot, the whole impassioned apocalypsticka of it all with the monks going "ooooh" in the background and the ascending bassline. also Clouddead i love and the GZA's (of wu-tang clan fame and i have the stuff thats worth owning, yes) album "liquid swords" with its dark samples and whole verbal sparring as martial art aspect. suggestions would be ACE.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:09 / 17.07.04
First of all, I'd recommend not thinking of hip hop in terms of alternative = innovative, intelligent, good, etc and mainstream = repetitive, misogynistic, bad, etc. These dichotomies don't work and as Kanye is constantly saying on his album, he's one of the artists who straddles the supposed divide.

But let's not get bogged down in that argument again unless we have to... Are you just looking for recent releases? The best rap album I've heard so far this year is The Pretty Toney Album by Ghostface Killah - there's a thread about it here. I'm not actually sure how good 2004 has been for hip hop so far - but then again the best records seem to drop later in the year, for reasons that escape me. Certainly my favourite hip hop records of 03 all came out in the second half of the year - The Black Album by Jay-Z, RZA's Birth Of A Prince, Deliverance by Bubba Sparxxx (neither of those last two got quite the recognition they deserved in my reliable opinion, I will expand upon this if required), and Outkast which I'm sure you're aware of.

Let me know if you want to go further back...
 
 
The Strobe
21:12 / 17.07.04
As a counterpoint to Fly who keeps it far realer than me, I can offer some suggestions on the more beard-hop side of the fence.

The second RJD2 album, Since We Last Spoke which came out a couple of weeks back is awesome. You really need to understand it as a logical progression from Deadringer, which in many ways is more of a direct follow-up to and expansion on Endtroducing than The Private Press ever was. On SWLS, he veers away from the Shadow-style and produces some soulier numbers (To All of You), and the beautiful almost-ballad that is Making Days Longer. It's a blinder of a record, the instrumentation fully realised, gentle, delicate; compare this to some of his DJ stuff or the brash, stalking horror samples of Deadringer and you get a good rounded idea of what RJ's up to.

Ty's Upwards is another CD I've really been enjoying lately; great, bouncy and lolloping production and I like his rhyming; not overtly "UK" and not overtly shit either. Quite striking, I'd check it out. Think it's on Big Dada.

You know The Roots, right? If not, pick up Phrenology or Things Fall Apart. They're getting on a bit now, and are prone to go down the jazz-band route of excessive noodling, but when they're good, they're great.

And I'm not going to let the fact I really like the Infesticons' Gun Hill Road escape this thread either.

Anyhow, there you go, confessions of a beard-hop fan. Definitely check out the new RJD2 - actually, everyone check it out, because it's delightful, and almost nowhere near anything remotely like hip-hop - and I'd strongly recommend the Ty.
 
 
Grey Area
21:14 / 17.07.04
Try The Marginal Prophets. They have a handful of tracks available for free download. I like them...especially the Guns'n'Money track. It reminds me a bit of KRS-One's stuff.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
03:59 / 18.07.04
some of my favorites of the past couple years

Non-Prophets - "Hope"
DM + Jemini - "Ghetto Pop Life"
Lifesavas - "Spirit in Stone"
Blackalicioius - "Blazin' Arrow" (my favorite hip-hop album)
Jurassic 5 - "Power in Numbers"
DJ Shadow - "In Tune and On Time" (new live CD/DVD is an amazing huge mix of Shadow tunes...really ace)
Various "Solesides Greatest Bumps" (label collection of essentials)
Madvillain - "Madvillainy"
 
 
at the scarwash
05:27 / 18.07.04
Well, if somehow you've never heard it, you should pick up the Dr. Octagon record. Kool Keith providing fractured, intricate rhymes, somewhat of a verbal Sun Ra, over Dan the Automator's beats (hip hop as pomo architecture), filled out with DJ Q-Bert's scratching (the Miles Davis of the one-and-twos). It is one of the very few perfect albums that I own, and I return to it quite frequently, always uncovering new aspects.
 
 
at the scarwash
05:29 / 18.07.04
Well, if somehow you've never heard it, you should pick up the Dr. Octagon record. Kool Keith providing fractured, intricate rhymes, somewhat of a verbal Sun Ra, over Dan the Automator's beats (hip hop as pomo architecture), filled out with DJ Q-Bert's scratching (the Miles Davis of the one-and-twos). It is one of the very few perfect albums that I own, and I return to it quite frequently, always uncovering new aspects.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:43 / 18.07.04
Oh, fucking hell, the same old cunts:

Jurassic 5

Dr. Octagon

Shadow

Blackalicious

Solesides

UurrGHh!

WORTHY! DEEP! FUCK OFF!


I'm in a bit of a bad mood this morning.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
14:39 / 18.07.04
But I feel your pain.
 
 
TeN
17:24 / 18.07.04
Dälek
Blackalicious
Wu Tang Clan [owns your life]
El-P
cLOUDDEAD
Antipop Consortium
Jurassic 5
Outkast (even though they're popular now, they're still original as heck)
The Roots
AESOP ROCK! AESOP ROCK! AESOP ROCK!
and did I mention Aesop Rock?

hope that helps

if you're looking for specific songs I'd recomend "Step Father Factory" by El-P and "Daylight" by Aesop Rock. Probably my two favorite rap songs of all time.
 
 
Seth
22:34 / 18.07.04
(even though they're popular now, they're still original as heck)

Apart from sounding a lot like Prince. You'll always be able to establish precedent. But the most important thing is that popularity has nothing to do with originality.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:31 / 18.07.04
Anything by New Kingdom, if you can still find it.
 
 
iconoplast
01:32 / 19.07.04
The Atoms Family are awful keen. As are
Peanut Butter Wolf
and All Natural
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
08:44 / 19.07.04
These are your standard "anything is good" merchants.

Boom-Bip
Jedi Mind Tricks
Lewis Parker

Ooops, running a mental blank. Will have to make note on the home db and bring it in.

Those three are fairly handy at turning out some choons to go with the material.
 
 
The Strobe
11:09 / 20.07.04
Yeah, what I've heard of Lewis Parker is pretty darn good.
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:55 / 21.07.04
Does anyone else think it's funny that mysticwreck started this thread by asking for songs that weren't just a pretty good sample repeated over and over, then offered Kanye as an example? What, because his samples suck? Anyway, there are hardly any samples in Lil Jon stuff, try that!
 
 
A
09:34 / 21.07.04
Curse Ov Dialect are rad, as are Cannibal Ox.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:12 / 21.07.04
hope that helps

Not really, no. It's a list of names, several of which have been mentioned already, two of them (Wu-Tang, Clouddead) even by the guy who was asking for other recommendations. And why would Outkast becoming popular make them less good in any way? What a strange concept.

I share Varriage's frustration that the same names keep coming up again and again. Not everyone in this thread is guilty of this, but still... Jurassic 5, you say? Really? Do people seriously still think (post Black Eyed Peas) that Jurassic 5 are in any way alternative, rather than conservative? You know, I like that first EP and even some of Quality Control, but J5 are unashamedly retro and mired in the past - even their name is a reference to this - and their shctick gets old (no pun intended) pretty fast. "Let's take it back to the good old days, when everything was lovely and old-fashioned and the music was proper old-fashioned good old music with no swearing and there was no crime and the locks to people's houses were made out of paper!" Woop-dee-fuckin' doo.

And people, I don't think mysticwreck will like the Dr Octagon album, as he explicitly asks for music in which the MC does NOT "talk about how great he is in a misogynistic fashion". That's Kool Keith in a nutshell - oh wait, he also throws in some surreal space-age shit, yeah, like almost every 'mainstream' MC you think you hate has done for the past five years or more. Again, the Dr Octagon record is not a bad album at all, but it might be the most overrated hip hop record ever made in certain circles.

Maybe the reason these same names coming up is that the whole concept of 'alternative' hip hop has been exploded in the last couple of years (finally, thank God). Like I said earlier, these dichotomies never worked and now (post Neptunes, post Timbaland, post Kanye) more and more people are aware of this. It's time to move on.
 
 
planetman
14:13 / 21.07.04
UGLY DUCKLING

ASPECTS

MC PITMAN

JAY GLAZE

MC LARS

BUCK 65

HEADCASE LADZ

NOTTINGHAM BRONX (P)

JEHST

TY
 
 
The Natural Way
14:36 / 22.07.04
It really, really is time to move on.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Octagon album, I really like ClouDdead's 'ClouDdead' album and APC and some Buck 65's pretty good too, BUT there's really very little excuse for the lame-ass line-in-the-sand that's being drawn. Maybe we could re-name this thread 'hip hop with a massive beard and tru knowledge of deep roots' and be done with it.

Yeah, Black Eyed Peas are the fucking death-nell for the worthy-hip hop age. Truly awful. Almost unlistenable.

Old skool does not necessarily = good. And why the shit do some of you have such a problem w/ the (perceived) misogynistic stuff anyway? I sometimes worry that whenever a hip hop artist (apart from some of those wanked about above) even remotely approaches good, hard fucking in his tunes, the nice, polite kids from Kent will automatically scream "Misogyny! Misogyny! Save the women's virtue! They hate dirty sex! My girlfriend hates dirty sex! With big, black men!"
 
 
+am
00:08 / 25.07.04
thanks for the recommendations y'all, theres a lot that will be checked out.

perhaps i shouldn't have given the post such a provocative title, just "good hip-hop" was more my thang. i was just tired of flicking over the music channels and seeing the same old tired braggadoccio and grimaces and fisheye lenses and some quite good sample that loses all impact cos its repeated over and over (and over). i mentioned kanye west cos i liked that tune Jesus Walks as i saw it on the tv and it was different to all the majority of the stuff i see... and yeah perhaps i am an indie whiteboy stroking my beard to the first clouddead album, but thats why i made reference to kanye west/wu-tang as i knew there was good shit out there that wasn't from beardagonia. but i don't care about this imaginary line anyway, its all about the choons, maaan. and, varriage, it is not my inbuilt whiteboy race-paranoia that makes me turn away from blatantly misogynistic lyrics(the depersonalisation of womEN into sex objects and nothing more/violence towards women) its cos i don't want to hear that shit and its cos i don't like to think that by buying such music i am supporting those who would perpetuate such opinions to other, perhaps less "well-informed" than you, individuals in society. its nothing to do with hip-hop per se, i have the same problem with limp bizkit et al. but "i don't want to meet your mama, i just wanna make you come-ah" sounds good to me, yo?

but yes, thanks for the response people.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:25 / 25.07.04
Moral of the story: making records about wanting to have sex with women is bad unless you're Andre 3000.
 
 
+am
17:12 / 25.07.04
i think about 50% of the songs ever released in this century are about wanting to have sex with women, probably more. well, it is our biological purpose and all.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
17:51 / 25.07.04
Sorry, whose?

Hip hop is inextricably linked with misogyny (lyrics, music videos, a lot of the posing of the more vociferous and notorious exponents). It's always struck me as one of those things you have to deal with in your own mind before you listen to the music, and that applies to a lot of rock n' roll, too. Try listening to Van Halen's 'Black & Blue' and finding the fine line between talking about some good hard fucking and basic objectification.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:48 / 25.07.04
Absolutely.

Wreck, you managed to respond to Flyboy without really saying anything. And I think yr mistaken if you think you can listen to practically any hip hop (incl Outkast) and outright avoid bitches and hoes.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
19:15 / 25.07.04
There's a good deal less misogyny than everyone always assumes, in both mainstream and 'underground' hip hop...or at least full on woman hating. Battle-rhyming traditionally involves a lot of bragging and shit talking and should be treated with a pinch of salt. NWA's output had some pretty revolting tracks about ladies as do the more contemporary offerings of Non-Phixion and Necro (extremely juvenile gore-core rapping by ugly white boys). But listen to most De La and Tribe albums, or Nas' Illmatic, or Jungle Brothers, KMD, Souls of Mischief blah blah blah, and I'd say the level of 'bitch an' ho' talk is pretty minimal. Too often do discussions of Hip Hop grind back round to misogyny and thug posturing, often at the expense of some of the poetry contained in a great deal of the music.
 
 
TeN
19:24 / 25.07.04
I just realized that no one's mentioned the Beastie Boys yet.

If you want some really "alternative" hip hop, I'd highly recomend Hello Nasty - in-fucking-credible.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:43 / 25.07.04
But their new album has some of the worst lyrics and vocal delivery ever heard on a rap record, so maybe we were better off not mentioning the Beasties, eh? Proof, incidentally, that if the sentiment and politics of the lyrical content is something you approve of but the way it's done is cringe-inducing, that's worse than the alternative.

I reckon Jack The Bodiless hits the nail on the head both when he says that misogyny is present in a lot of rock'n'roll music too (just as much, I'd argue), and that it's something you pretty much have to deal with. Not in the sense of accepting dominant trends in the culture or ignoring them - I just think that if you choose the music you listen to on a stricyly political/moral basis you'll miss out on so much good stuff, it's ridiculous.

It's also true that the misogyny of hip hop is disproportionately overstated by the media, particularly in areas like the white rock press or the music pages of broadsheet newspapers. And I can sympathise with people who don't want to have the argument again - thread here from a while ago in which I tried to articulate some of my feelings about all this, if anyone cares.
 
 
+am
19:44 / 25.07.04
okay i respond to flyboy by saying:

"no thats not my point at all, the reason i pointed out the 3000 line is that i think its a good example of a guy talking about how yeah he wants to fuck, but he knows the girl does too and its about her as well, she isn't just some pleasuremachine you put yer dick in when you feel the urge"

its a respect thing... guys can talk about fucking all they like and i don't care, its just when women become less than human that i find it uncomfortable to listen to. i agree with what macguyver said, i think that a lot of hip-hop out there IS like this, i.e. pretty respectful to women as a sex. i just wanted to avoid the typical bullshit macho posturing, the "pretty ugly lyrics of early NWA". thats all man, i'm not wagging my finger in the manner yr so quick to assume i am.
and the reason i said a lot of songs are about sex is that i was trying to point out that i hate overtly sexist lyricism in all its forms, and that includes the neanderthal masturbations of some heavy metal bands, including van wailen. i don't have a problem with SEX at all, just SEX-ISM. do you see??

and, Jack the Bodiless, turn on any pop music station today and try and listen to the lyrics and tell me its not about sex in one form or another. "my milkshake brings all the boys to the bar" etc etc etc. sex is in SO MANY songs man, surely? and i don't give a fuck about that, as i have said.

yeah TeN, i do like Hello Nasty, tho Paul's Boutique is my favourite from the beasties
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:35 / 25.07.04
One thing I do disagree with that Jack The Bodiless said is the word "inextricably": since feminist hip hop exists, this can't be the case. Yes, it can look that way just like every other aspect of modern western culture can look inextricably sexist, but I don't see any reason why that can't change...
 
 
ORQWITH
02:07 / 26.07.04
almost anything on Def Jux is good EL-P, Murs, C Rays Wallz, Aesop Rock, Cannibal Ox, etc. But that seems to be common knowledge. The main point of my reply is to hype the FUCK out of my current obsession



MADVILIAN!!


Madvillian features Madlib as the dj, who whips up some incredible tracks. The Zappa of hip hop producers possibly? But the true star is MF DOOM, who also goes by other names (Victor Vaughn, King Gedorah, Quasimoto, and he used to be called Zeb Love X back when he was in K.M.D.)
His lyrics and delivery are truly unique and I seem do discover something new every time i listen to him. I have owned K.M.D.'s "MR. HOOD" for a year or so, and i remember him guesting on the 3rd Bass song "Ace in the Hole" back in the day (i used to listen to 3rd Bass' "Derilects of Dialect" all the time back in my high school days of the early 90's). But anyway i did not even know that the "K.M.D. guy" was even MF Doom, But i picked up Madvillian a few months ago and it blew my mind. Last week i picked up the album he put out as Vic Vaugh "Vaudville Villian" which is also phenomenal, but not quite as good as Madvillian. Well, my long winded diatribe is coming to a close.

go buy Madvilian!!

i'll shut up now
 
 
bio k9
04:15 / 26.07.04
The Zappa of hip hop producers

That isn't true. Nor is it a compliment.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
09:28 / 26.07.04
Quasimoto is Madlib's alter-ego, not Doom's. But, you're right, the album fucking rocks.

Doom's stuff is worth checking, whatever guise it's under:

MF Doom - Operation Doomsday: this is he as producer and mc, from 1999, and is prolly his masterpiece. A pretty flawless album.

King Geedorah - Take Me To your Leader: This is Doom as producer (and guest MC) featuring a slew of unknown, but pretty hot MC's. Brief but ace, with some of my fave Doom beats

Victor Vaughn - Vaughnvillan: Here Doom is the MC, under the Sound Ink rosta production. This is digital hip-hop at it's best, a nice fusion of electronica and trad rhyming. Nice guest spots from M Saayid of APC and Apani B, a real hot lady MC.

Special Herbs Vols 1-6 - MF Doom: Instrumentals by Doom. All pretty great, constantly fresh

Bootleggery - check out 'Nastrodoomus' a hooky, but brilliant fusing of jacked Doom beats and Nas lyrics from his shitty mid-period albums. It works brilliantly, Nas should employ the man ASAP.
 
 
Seth
10:33 / 26.07.04
Last I checked one of the members of Outkast had a strip club...

In his basement.

Be honest with yourself here: you can like hip hop and see it for what it is. It's not Nestle, it doesn't need a boycott.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:43 / 26.07.04
Indeed. Earnest singer-songwriters however SHOULD be boycotted, and indeed have sanctions placed against them.

Not sure where that came from. Sorry.
 
  

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