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The Filth Revisited

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
eeoam
16:18 / 18.07.04
Rhythmic vigor:

. I get the impression from his run on the Filth an New X-men he really has gone quite right-wing

Yes, I think you're right. People who are against Status Q are consistently parodied in the Filth as nothing more than narcisstic, exhibitionist clueless dunderheads who need to be 'cleaned up' as quickly as possible. Which of course is exactly how conservatives insist on viewing progressives. It's unfortunate because the Filth could have been so much more than that.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
16:25 / 18.07.04
Yeah, and the Hand are so shiny and sweet and shown in such a positive light too...
 
 
bigsunnydavros
16:26 / 18.07.04
And Status Q seems so appealing...
 
 
bigsunnydavros
16:39 / 18.07.04
All sarcasm aside, may I note once more that I think that all of this "right wing" stuff is bollocks. The worldview we are presented with in the Filth is hugely bleak and misanthropic; the trick of the series is to look for pockets of hope and love within this worldview. In this way it is "so much more" than some sort of bizarro republican sci-fi story.

As for New X-Men... erm, no. As I've mentioned before, one of the things I like about Morrison is the way that bits of his work rub up against each other, and there are quite a few bits in that series (particularly around the "Riot" arc) that balance out against some of his previous work nicely, but on the whole I think that New X-Men's focus on personal and social change, on breaking out of old cycles and tryiong something new, is most certainly not the work of a conservative writer.

Morrison obviously has a hard-on for revolutionaries (don't we all), but he's smart enough to to explore his ideas from more than one perspective. This is a good trait in a writer, and I, for one, think you're being rather simplistic here.
 
 
eeoam
16:48 / 18.07.04
he's smart enough to to explore his ideas from more than one perspective.

But that's exactly the point. People against Status Q are only depicted in one way, shown from only one perspective, as the typical right winger would view them. Where is the perspective of intelligent, selfless people who oppose The Way Things Are?

As for New X-Men, well I don't see how bringing Magneto back to life is 'trying something new'.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
16:58 / 18.07.04
"But that's exactly the point. People against Status Q are only depicted in one way, shown from only one perspective, as the typical right winger would view them. Where is the perspective of intelligent, selfless people who oppose The Way Things Are?"

ARGH! As I'm pretty damned sure I mentioned in my last post, they ain't anywehere in this comic. Neither, by the way, are the gentle rulers of humanity. Everyone and everything in the Filth is shit. The peseptive revolutionaries are in his other texts, as, again, I hinted at above. This text... it's all about struggling through a bleak world. It ain't left wing, it ain't right wing, it's just bleak as fuck.

"As for New X-Men, well I don't see how bringing Magneto back to life is 'trying something new'.

*sigh*

It was comment on the circular, played out, overly simplistic nature of the conflicts that are central to the X-Franchise. That bringing Magneto back isn't "trying something new" was really rather the point. His ever repeating story arc is, in the frame of Morrison's story, restrictive and destructive. The comic played this conflict out one more time in the hope of finding some new ground to cover.

And yup, Magento's back again now -- surprise... but that ain't Morrison's problem, and hell, it certainly wasn't unexpected. "Maybe that's my secondary mutation -- to always come back."
 
 
eeoam
17:13 / 18.07.04
As I'm pretty damned sure I mentioned in my last post, they ain't anywehere in this comic.

Precisely. They are nowhere to be found. The Filth claims, among other things, to be a paean to those who maintain the Status Q. Showing the shit and ignoring the gold is a big gaping whole in this thesis, is all I'm saying.

It was comment on the circular, played out, overly simplistic nature of the conflicts that are central to the X-Franchise.
Here we go. This reminds me of the people who write crap stories and then go, "But that's the point. My crap story is meant to be a 'comment' on other people's crap stories." I have just never bought that. If you want to show up people who do crap, don't copy them, do better than them!
If you want to 'comment' on other people's lack of imagination, be imaginative yourself!
 
 
Michelle Gale
18:01 / 18.07.04
Perhaps the Filth was meant to provide a balance to the invisibles but im not sure can call it "neither left nor right".
It is right wing the status quo is shown to be infinetly prefrable to that which the revolutionaries offer.

When Max Thunderstone encounters the Hand he just puts the ideas of Buddhismo into practice and punches the fuck through people, whereas the hand are using tranquiliser
darts.

The ideas that Max spouts and Spartaccus Hughes puts into practice are utterly fuckwitted and inevitably violent, the hand always reacts in a considerabally more restrained way than the revolutionaries.And at the end Greg doesnt continue to rail agaisnt Status Q he just kind of accepts things as they are. And doesnt seem to want to change them any further


As for new X-men i thought the whole anti revolutionary stance was mighty overt. Morrison sets it out right at the begining, the x-men/mutants are no longer the possible userpers of humankind all hated and feared. The human race is doomed the X-Men/mutants now become the establishment reacting against threats to the Status Q (thus the X-corporations etc.)

Obviously "Riot at Xaviers" is when the right wingedness is most obvious( Che Guvara/ Magneto t-shirt) , in a similar way to the revoutinaries in t'Filth Quentin's ideas are utterly meaningless and dangerous, as a result the X-men/ status Q deal with that threat in a relatively humane way

Magneto and his ideas (which Quentin derives his from) are protrayed as just as hollow and similarly dangerous albeit on a larger scale. his ideas and actions that are informed by them are shown to contribute absolutely nothing whatsoever.

Then you've got the whole sublime thing, that seems to be suggesting that anything upsetting the status Q and doing something to alter it or change it is detrimental to "human" development,
All the bad shit that effects the Status Q throughout other than Cassandra Nova is directly attributable to Sublime. With this Morrison seems to be saying that these counter-cultural actions make so little sense that their motivatian must come from outside of "humanity".
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:58 / 18.07.04
Aaaah, but now you are arguing something else. Now you are saying The Filth is right-wing, which I could agree with, at the bottom of page two you were saying Grant Morrison had 'gone' right-wing, something else entirely and I don't quite see how bringing back Magneto is a sign of right-wingness, unless you're trying to make some connection between political Conservatism and the conservative nature of men-in-tights comics.

Obviously "Riot at Xaviers" is when the right wingedness is most obvious( Che Guvara/ Magneto t-shirt) , in a similar way to the revoutinaries in t'Filth Quentin's ideas are utterly meaningless and dangerous, as a result the X-men/ status Q deal with that threat in a relatively humane way

I don't think giving Quentin a slap down for his stupid ideas is much of a political sign one way or the other. Is attacking a bunch of punks left-wing of Quentin? Is attacking Xavier and starting a riot a coherent political strategy?

Magneto and his ideas (which Quentin derives his from) are protrayed as just as hollow and similarly dangerous albeit on a larger scale. his ideas and actions that are informed by them are shown to contribute absolutely nothing whatsoever.

Both Quentin and Magneto are acting, if you want to map it, in an extremely conservative fashion. Exalting homo superior as being more important than homo sapiens because they happen to be born into that race. Believing a different race to be inferior. Using violence, the tool of their oppressors, the humans. Magneto sets up fucking DEATH CAMPS for the humans for God's sake, and this from someone who came from one himself (or used to, I'm not sure if Magneto's history has been retconned now but when I was an X-Fan a decade or so ago he had at least lost family to the Nazis). Neither QQ or Mags bring anything new to the table, just perpetuating the same old mistakes so that, if they lived, there would have been a bunch of bitter wounded humans coming after them for revenge. You call that left-wing?

Then you've got the whole sublime thing, that seems to be suggesting that anything upsetting the status Q and doing something to alter it or change it is detrimental to "human" development

Did you actually read the last arc? Sublime wants to stop human development and control it himself. He's pretty much succeeded, needing only the power of the Phoenix to reach those parts of the planet he lacked the strength to eradicate before. The Phoenix changes the timeline so that he doesn't get a position of dominance and so that evolution can continue unhindered by him. It's the status quo only in that it's how the world always is, but it allows us to develop, unlike Sublimes status quo.

The Filth is the deliberate opposite to The Invisibles, so it's going to take the opposite view. Yeah, De Sade's ideas might be cool and sexy but only if you get to be on top, if you don't consent then all that's happening is you are being raped. Does someone have the right to free you if you don't find life so bad? Is a restriction on your right to steal or murder a fair trade if you've got a nice house and food to eat? The Filth is as cliched as The Invisibles was, your complaint seems to be more that the set of cliches employed in The Invisibles were more to your taste.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:32 / 18.07.04
The Filth is as cliched as the Invisibles was

Oh come on. Do you honestly think that in either case the ideas involved were exactly mainstream, at the time ? There hadn't been all that much like The Invisibles since that late Sixties/early Seventies, and as far as I can see, The Filth's still pretty much out there, all on it's tod.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
01:40 / 19.07.04
I think Our Lady of the Flamingoes is absolutely on the money in terms of how “left wing” the acts of the bad guys in New X-Men are.

And this...

I don't quite see how bringing back Magneto is a sign of right-wingness, unless you're trying to make some connection between political Conservatism and the conservative nature of men-in-tights comics.

...is a damned fine point! I only wish I hadn’t been too busy wailing and screaming to think of it…

Anyway, it seems to me that this quote, from Morrison’s Animal Man run, is screamingly relevant to the overall themes of New X-Men:

It’s funny; some say that the superheroes are the next stage in human evolution, yet every time we meet, all we seem to do is fight one another. If that’s the future, it doesn’t look too bright to me.

In Morrison’s New X-Men mutants are not yet the status quo, but they will be in the future. They represent potential for new ideas and ways of living in the world. The main villain in the series, Sublime, attempts to drag this potential down into a violent, conflict based oppositional set-up that will self-perpetuate until the end of time, stunting real progress as it does so. In a world where the Republican Government of America has spent the last couple of years trying to convince the world that it is blowing the fuck out of people in a progressive and humanitarian way, attempting to set up a black and white conflict between The Land Of The Free and The Axis Of Evil in the process, I can’t think of any message that could possibly be further from much of what currently constitutes the politics of the right.

Here we go. This reminds me of the people who write crap stories and then go, "But that's the point. My crap story is meant to be a 'comment' on other people's crap stories." I have just never bought that. If you want to show up people who do crap, don't copy them, do better than them!

If you want to 'comment' on other people's lack of imagination, be imaginative yourself!


Well, I’d agree with you that writing a crap story and then claiming that the whole point of the story is that it’s crap doesn’t do anything to change the fact that it’s a crap story, but that’s not what I feel Morrison has done here, nor was it what I argued that he had done.

For one thing I certainly don’t think that the Planet X arc is a “crap” story, and I feel no need to excuse it of anything. You may disagree with me here, but as a wise man once said, that’s just, like, your opinion man. Furthermore I think that a large part of its strength derives from the ways in which it plays both with and against the conventions of the genre and franchise that it is a part of. This isn’t the same as going through the motions in a blank listless fashion and then trying to pass it off as being a profound statement. Rather it is a very smart and natural approach to writing material of this nature that amps up and examines the subtext of previous stories (the good ones and the bad ones) and in doing so provides a “new” look at the mechanics of these narratives. I feel that the way that this story plays out is crushingly relevant to the current world climate and highly imaginative to boot (see my above comments on the overall themes of his run for details), and this impression is only strengthened by the way that Morrison tied the events in this arc into the even bigger arc that threads through his run as a whole.

But anyway, this is a thread about The Filth rather than New X-Men, so lets move on for now shall we?

Excellent.

I really don’t think that the Filth is pro Status Q, and it’s certainly not a fucking paean to it in any case. The methods of the Hand are less extreme than those of the anti-people they battle? Sometimes. But remember, they fight violent hardcore porn with violent hardcore porn, kill the fuck out of the new life form on the Libertania, and are generally fairly brutal and horrible in their dealings with anti-people and people in general. I’d say that they’re pretty clearly supposed to be hugely unappealing, as is Status Q in general.

Showing the shit and ignoring the gold is a big gaping whole in this thesis, is all I'm saying..”

Again, I think you’re wrong here – the whole point of the Filth is that the view it provides on the world is pretty hopeless and misanthropic. Furthermore, despite what you say,there is some gold here. And where does it originate from? Our “hero” Greg/Ned of course! And what is Greg/Ned but a walking synthesis – he’s both an anti person and a Hand agent, US and THEM combined in one man. One of the key themes of the Invisibles (and of New X-Men for that matter) is that of moving beyond reductive US vs THEM/THEM vs US conflicts, yes? Well I’d argue that the same thing is going on in The Filth, though obviously the perspective we get on these ideas is totally different here than it is in either of those texts. What’s the key to The Filth? Love. Compassion. A little bit of TLC. That’s what seems to be crucial to any real progress in the GM worldview right now, and quite frankly I’m all for it! As I’ve said before, this isn’t a hugely optimistic series, but there is change here on a scale that is both small and large (Greg inoculates the world and is inoculated by the world at the same time). The fact that the series reaches this place despite its aforementioned bleak worldview is essential to its effect, in my opinion, and furthermore, I’d go as far as to say that rather than being a thesis with a gap in it, The Filth actually plugs a gap in some of Morrison’s previous imaginings.

Let me explain.

Towards the end of the series, Miami comes out with the following line:

The system is perfect, Ned. It has to be; it’s all there is.

This quote isn’t comforting, and it’s not meant to be. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that it’s one of the most chilling lines that Morrison has ever written. What it does do is to point to one of the scary ramifications of viewing the world as being a part of a self-ordering system heading towards some sort of higher goal (a la The Invisibles): if the system, with it’s battle between order and chaos, has a purpose then in what way does this make it any better when your existence feels like hell? A line from New X-Men comes to mind here: “Why do there always have to be people like you?” The Filth struggles with this, trying to find something to cling onto amongst the conflict both internal and external (the lines between these two states are very blurry in this book, as has already been noted). “What am I supposed to do with this?”, Greg asks, and it’s a damned good question. We all have moments where everything looks hopeless and vicious and unsettling, or at least threatens to; The Filth is all about these moments, and I think it’s also very much about what keeps us going through such times, something that I think is very much worth exploring in fiction.
 
 
Ben Danes
08:42 / 19.07.04
I would like to know about the gynaecological decor, too, and all the rest.

There's a line in the first issue or so about this. The gynaecological look is intentional, because it causes people to think about things that they are uncomfortable about dealing with in public, so they subconsciously ignore them, rather than process the information and confront what that entails. So people aren't yelling out 'Who are the orange and purple wearing fuckers' because they choose to ignore them. Again its in either the first or so issue, and I could be getting it slightly wrong.

I'm in the more than one reading camp to this as well. Didn't really come across to me as Greg making it all up when I reread it, although I can see how people come away with that. Mine was that Greg Feely was the real person, and Ned Slade was the para persona. There's lines Hand agents say throughout that seem to indicate this (such as one of the agents being killed by Klimakks' killer sperm and saying to Greg/Ned 'don't worry. I'll be back in a while'. I think Spector goes on to say the same thing later on as well. Its the whole society's expectations for someone, but it not being what the person wants. Cause Greg just wants to care for his cat.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:31 / 19.07.04
So, applying the 'it's all in Greg's head' lense, what does him freaking out over the Ned Slade vial signify then? Is it like in The Singing Detective, when his idealised self as The Detective shoots his real self in the bed to signify he's grown up and moved on and isn't held back any more by the spiritual turmoil of his early life? Seeing as he then goes on to practically destroy the Hand HQ I don't know whether it's more "I don't need Ned Slade to do Ned Slade things". Worrying about who he is drives him to heart attack, after that he knows he's Greg Feely and he's happy with that, so can move on.
 
 
Michelle Gale
10:57 / 19.07.04
Fair enough maybe i did go on a bit about X-men, (this is a filth thread after all)
But i mostly did it show that there are quite a few parellels between the two and their representation of that which is outside the status quo.
And to show that the Filth is not an isolated reaction to the invisibles leftyness, but a shift in politics on Grants part,

Perhaps right wingedness is a bit simplistic, but i think hes trying to represent a kind of Fukuyamaesque postmodernist liberalism (long words hoooo!). Which in itself it could be argued to be quite right wing and conservative., and a deviation from his previous works politics.
He's attacking extremism in all its forms, but its just his representaion of whats extreme and the fact that anything that threatens the status quo is parodied that i have a bit of a problem problem with.
 
 
eeoam
11:46 / 19.07.04
anything that threatens the status quo is parodied that i have a bit of a problem problem with.

A lot of people here don't seem to be able to quite grasp this simple fact. The premise of the Filth is you have this agency called the Hand whose job it is to enforce the Status Q. Fine. No Problem. Obviously there are threats to the Status Q, as you could expect. But the Filth only shows 'negative' threats, supposedly because it's not meant to be 'optimistic'. But the issue is not optimism but truthfulness. By only showing one kind of threat to Status Q, the Filth compromises its verisimilitude.(Besides, if you wanted to pessimistic, you could always show a good threat to Status Q being ruthlessly swatted by the Hand.) How can we accept the Filth's conclusions when we see that it isn't capable of looking at our world honestly?
 
 
bigsunnydavros
12:15 / 19.07.04
Our Lady:

"Seeing as he then goes on to practically destroy the Hand HQ I don't know whether it's more "I don't need Ned Slade to do Ned Slade things". Worrying about who he is drives him to heart attack, after that he knows he's Greg Feely and he's happy with that, so can move on."

I need to think about this a bit more, but I think you might be on to something here.

Rhythmic Vigor said that one of hir aims was "...to show that the Filth is not an isolated reaction to the invisibles leftyness, but a shift in politics on Grants part."

I'm still not convinced on this front -- certainly, none of Morrison's work is "isolated" (I'm going back to my "one big conversation with himself" idea here), but how do you fit Seaguy into this setup? It takes place in a comfy capitalist world where evil has allegedly been defeated in a big battle against one huge chunk of other (is Anti-Dad being vanquished related to the rather preposterous idea of winning a war against terror?), but where there's blatantly a lot of sinsiter stuff going on without this easily identifiable evil. Our main character runs up against the status quo, and he's not a parodied bad guy -- he's just a naive, likeable pertson looking for an adventure. The comic is like Xoo -- a product of the capitalist system it is up against. We don't know where it's going, but we're following it nontheless. Or at least, I am.

"He's attacking extremism in all its forms, but its just his representaion of whats extreme and the fact that anything that threatens the status quo is parodied that i have a bit of a problem problem with."

I wouldn't say he's attacking extremism so much as he's attacking violent extermism, which I don't think is anti-progrssive or conservative at all for reasons that have largely been articulated by Our Lady in that big post about New X-Men.

As I said in my last post, the mutants aren't the status quo yet -- they're going to be one day, but that day hasn't yet arrived. They are extreme as you want them to be, but does that mean they have to be violent? Aren't there ways of imagining new worlds without resorting to violence? Since we're talking about Morrison's current political viewpoint, as represented in his texts, have you read his Julie Schwartz tribute in Mystery In Space? I liked it a lot -- it came out last week and it's got this neat meta thread running through it:

"Ten years after Sputnik the kids who read Julie's books will march on the pentagon--stoned and rebellious in their threadbare rocket suits--lost between two worlds--will die in mud--heavy with metals--victims of politics and ballistics... This is Julie's gift to the generations--this primary-inked promise of better worlds to come--of kinder and more rational men and woman somewhere beyond the cold war's deviding walls and hydrogen paranoias--hip to hope..."

The "bad guys" in this story are the government/the military who want to break everything down into some sort of propaganda piece/opportunity for conquest. It is, as I said, a really neat little story.

"anything that threatens the status quo is parodied that i have a bit of a problem problem with.

A lot of people here don't seem to be able to quite grasp this simple fact.
"

I've "grasped" this simple fact just fine, eeoam -- it's just that I view thing somewhat differently, as I've already mentioned several times in this thread. Now I know that my language has become very clumsy at points ("generally speaking, in general, I generally think that..."), but it seems to me that I've already covered this ground, to my satifaction at least (heh -- there's the rub!). Here we go again -- once more with feeling:

Yes, of course there are such things as positive acts against the status quo in real life. They're also there in the world of the Filth, in a limited sense (Greg/Ned at the end is, as has been stated previously, a hyrid of a Hand aagent and a threat to Status Q). But my point was that the whole fictional lense of the series is a misanthropic one -- it's all about feeling like you can't see anything positive either in the status quo or in the people who act against it. EVERYTHING comes off badly in the Filth. Even Morrison's precious animals. Sure, Greg fawns over Tony, but think about it -- the majority of the animals in this world are as nasty as everything else is

"DON'T PATRONIZE ME FUCKFACE." vs "God forgive me. I've been a greenpeace frontline supporter for ten years."

It is an emotionally "honest" piece -- something that moves from absolute misanthropy to something slightly beyond that. Have you never been in a horrible emotional state where everything seemed worthless? Where everything seemed like shit? The key to moving past this in this text lies is the very small-scale love that Greg shows for his cat. this may sound fairly limited, and indeed it is, nut the comic does take Greg to task on this:

"Just ask yourself where you were on the day she got raped and torched in a field in Chad. Buying cat food?"

"Lamb and turkey."

"Figures. Asshole."

The solution? A very weird sort of care in the community! That's operating both with and against Status Q on a low-level scale, improving it from the ground up.

I genuinely think that this series, with it's nasty view of the world, is a part of a counterbalance against the Invisibles (which also strives for synthesis, but comes more from the POV of the anti-authoritarian people and is far more, you guessed it, positive and optomistic in it sworldview), but I don't think that it is "right wing" at all, and I'm certainly sceptical of the idea that Morrison is a right-winger these days.
 
 
eeoam
13:40 / 19.07.04
EVERYTHING comes off badly in the Filth. Even Morrison's precious animals. Sure, Greg fawns over Tony, but think about it -- the majority of the animals in this world are as nasty as everything else is

But, as you yourself pointed out, not every animal! There are at least two animals which aren't nasty. Two animals which challenge the misanthropic view!

But my point was that the whole fictional lense of the series is a misanthropic one -- it's all about feeling like you can't see anything positive either in the status quo or in the people who act against it.

if I feel like everything in the world is worthless, that there's no point to anything, is it because everything is worthless, because there is no point? Is everything shit? Are you shit? Or is it because valuable and meaningful things do exist but I just can't see them?
For the Filth to really make its point it needed to show us things of value and meaning while also showing us why Greg couldn't appreciate them. The bottom line is it didn't do this with regards to threats to Status Q, although this could have been accomplished with a good threat to Status Q that Greg destroys because he can't see its goodness. You've still got your misanthropic view of the world (that you later move beyond). But you've also got a more balanced argument.

We got to see the Hand in a balanced light. Both it's good and bad points. It's dignities and it's disasters. Status Q threats deserved no less.

In failing to show evenhandedness in this regard the Filth opens itself up to the accusation that it possesses a right-wing bias (though the term conservative is probably preferable).

Nevertheless, I do see your point that towards the end the Filth does try to go beyond a conservative position. It just doesn't go as far as arguably it should have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:24 / 19.07.04
I think you lost me at:

By only showing one kind of threat to Status Q, the Filth compromises its verisimilitude.

I don't think the Filth can be held up to the same standards as BBC News 24 here. It isn't letting us down by not showing the constructive, intelligent, peace-loving responses to the people in bright orange tailcoats and guns with rubbish trucks that eat people and primate snipers, because none of it exists. So, George is showing us what he wants us to see of the Hand, Status Q and its discontents. And, by the end, the means by which the status quo is maintained is shown to be, if possibly necessary, also deeply unpleasant, disconcerting and alien. I don't think we can assume from this that George has gone Tory on us. Necessarily.

In fact, trying to work out autobiography from fiction is a pretty dangerous pursuit. I know that most people here have a very low opinion of George Morrison and his work, and so might think that he is so simple-minded that everything he writes has a single meaning, which precisely represents his personal beliefs, but he's my friend, damn it, possibly my best friend, and I don't think that's fair. Necessarily.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:31 / 19.07.04
eeoam A lot of people here don't seem to be able to quite grasp this simple fact.

Oooh get her...

The premise of the Filth is you have this agency called the Hand whose job it is to enforce the Status Q. Fine. No Problem. Obviously there are threats to the Status Q, as you could expect. But the Filth only shows 'negative' threats, supposedly because it's not meant to be 'optimistic'.

Noooooo... there are no 'positive' threats because The Filth aren't there for the nice things in life, The Filth are, or like to see themselves as, the antibodies to the disease that is the bad things in life. You might as well complain that we don't see the good things that the Outer Church and it's minions do for people in The Invisibles. Ned Slade wouldn't get out of bed for a few battered hippies walking down Whitehall. And think about what Status Q actually means and consider that in issue 8 Dmitry kills the President of the United States while the Filth kill all of the world's richest people that happen to be on the boat.

I think that because they never confuse the two terms that Status Q does not equal Status Quo.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:34 / 19.07.04
Obviously Haus missed the 'we don't call Grant George in this thread' meeting then?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:51 / 19.07.04
What, Charlie George's brother? What's he got to do with anything? Why would we call him?
 
 
eeoam
15:58 / 19.07.04
I don't think the Filth can be held up to the same standards as BBC News 24 here.
I should hope not. I expect far better things from gm's work.
All I'm saying is that it's difficult to believe that the Filth's claim to be about what it means to maintain the Status Quo if important aspects of that job (namely surpressing 'good' threats) aren't shown. You can't

I don't think we can assume from this that George has gone Tory on us.
More like New Labour

The Filth aren't there for the nice things in life, The Filth are, or like to see themselves as, the antibodies to the disease that is the bad things in life
But sometimes antibodies can make mistakes. They can attack heathy stuff thinking it's bad. Ever heard of Multiple sclerosis?

You might as well complain that we don't see the good things that the Outer Church and it's minions do for people in The Invisibles.
Don't we? Don't you have to go through the Outer Church to get to the Invisible College?

Ned Slade wouldn't get out of bed for a few battered hippies walking down Whitehall.
In denigrating people who work for change as nothing more than 'a few battered hippies', you are actually demonstrating the problem.
 
 
Michelle Gale
16:22 / 19.07.04
Come on now George we plenty love your Filth!

So, George is showing us what he wants us to see of the Hand, Status Q and its discontents.

Exactamundo! and it aint reet balanced, and similar sentiments are expressed in New X-Men in my opinion, thats what im baseing Grants shift to a more Fukuyamaesque stance on stuff, rather than a counter cultural one. An i havnt read Sea Guy so i can't really judge on that ...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:10 / 19.07.04
Ever heard of Multiple sclerosis?

Wow. Somebody just threw in a horribly debilitating, unpleasant and ultimately fatal condition in the pursuit of winning an argument about a comic. Ladies, gentlemen, we have officially lost contact with perspective. I am so out of here.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
17:29 / 19.07.04
"But, as you yourself pointed out, not every animal! There are at least two animals which aren't nasty. Two animals which challenge the misanthropic view!"

Yes, there are elements which challenege the misanthropy of the comic -- wasn't this sort of a big part of my point?

I think Our Lady's points about the difference between Status Q and the status quo are very important, and, to be honest with you eeoam, you've completley lost me again by going off on one about what The Filth "should" do. Your sugegstions dont really sound like they'd make much sense within the scope of the series to me -- why should it show the positive side of either those who enforce Status Q or those who threaten it? Greg/Ned wades through this US vs THEM conflict, finding no light in it (in EITHER side of it). The only salvation he finds in the series lies outside of this set-up -- that's what the series is all about, partly at least.

That's why I just can't get with Rhythmic Vigor's "it ain't real balanced" shtick, or the "Grunt Mozzington am loving the police and is a big smelly tory" argument: the view of order vs chaos is plenty balanced in The Filth -- the series' bleak nature ensures that!--and the few things which do get shown in a positive light in the series have fuck all to do with any sort of right wing/pro-authoritarian perspective.
 
 
eeoam
17:35 / 19.07.04
Wow. Somebody just threw in a horribly debilitating, unpleasant and ultimately fatal condition in the pursuit of winning an argument about a comic. Ladies, gentlemen, we have officially lost contact with perspective. I am so out of here.

This is a gross overreaction. Of course MS is a serious condition(though I'm not sure it's fatal). Now it has relevance to the discussion and is not used simply as a ploy to 'win the argument'. When someone brought up auto-immune disease earlier on in this thread we didn't jump all over them!

In any event if people are going to be this sensitive then the best course of action simply to agree to disagree on this one.

MAN MADE GOD
A VERY ENGLISH NERVOUS BREAKDOWN
SCHIZOTYPE
THEM VS US


I've decided to combine the comments on the remaining issues and the series as a whole will be posting them a bit later on.
 
 
eeoam
17:43 / 19.07.04
"But, as you yourself pointed out, not every animal! There are at least two animals which aren't nasty. Two animals which challenge the misanthropic view!"

Yes, there are elements which challenege the misanthropy of the comic -- wasn't this sort of a big part of my point?

Just as there were animals that challenged the misanthropic view, there should have been threats to Status Q which also challenged the misanthropic view. There weren't, thus the comment that

the view of order vs chaos is plenty balanced in The Filth

does not entirely ring true.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:43 / 19.07.04
[Hanging on to high ground with finger tips, but fear I'm loosing my grip...]

eeoam I don't think the Filth can be held up to the same standards as BBC News 24 here.
I should hope not. I expect far better things from gm's work.


OK, just checking that you remember the difference between fiction and non-fiction yes? Or would you like to see Capturing the Friedmans getting best costume drama at the Oscars. Is a swearing dolphin better or worse than a report on union busters killing Coca-Cola workers in Columbia?

The Filth aren't there for the nice things in life, The Filth are, or like to see themselves as, the antibodies to the disease that is the bad things in life
But sometimes antibodies can make mistakes. They can attack heathy stuff thinking it's bad. Ever heard of Multiple sclerosis?

From my limited knowledge of the disease it attacks the brain. Much like Greg does in the last issue.

You might as well complain that we don't see the good things that the Outer Church and it's minions do for people in The Invisibles.
Don't we? Don't you have to go through the Outer Church to get to the Invisible College?

I don't see how that's answering my point and, pedantically speaking, neither Jack in 'Down and Out', King Mob and Robin in 'The Girl Most Likely To' or Satan and Jack in 'The Invisible Kingdom' enter The Invisible College via the Outer Church. So again, some concrete examples in the text of nice things the Conspiracy is doing for us all please.

Ned Slade wouldn't get out of bed for a few battered hippies walking down Whitehall.
In denigrating people who work for change as nothing more than 'a few battered hippies', you are actually demonstrating the problem.


If you'd like to show how you worked out that I'd suddenly stopped talking in hypotheticals and moved on to talking about real groups of people I'd be happy to see it, else you could apologise and move on.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:50 / 19.07.04
I'm going to take "sensitive" here from a man who cannot back up an argument without going for an apocalyptic comparison as some form of swallow dive. For future reference, antibodies are generated which probably impede the effectiveness of interferons, a group of drugs used to treat the symptoms of MS. So, I don't think your metaphor holds up meaningfully - the interferons aren't "healthy", they are a set of alien chemicals which happen to affect the body in a way that its inhabitant wants - they don't normalise. If you're telling us that George s representing the Hand as unambiguously good and useful, and the current way of things as necessary and not to be altered, and thus has gone all right wing, which I think is an incomplete picture btw, then MS and antibodies is a medically naive example. You want something where the antibodies actually attack the body.i

And you say "Ever hear of multiple sclerosis?", in that neurasthenic, whiny, empathy-challenged Steve-Dave voice your typography has mysteriously morphed into an AAC file of, and I am likely to think you are a bit of a nob. Simple as. That doesn't have anything to do with the Filth, or indeed sensitivity, only with how useful it might be to try to discuss anything with you.
 
 
Michelle Gale
18:05 / 19.07.04
whoa there sailor
 
 
Michelle Gale
18:16 / 19.07.04
"Grunt Mozzington am loving the police and is a big smelly tory"

Im dyslexic so im alowed to make as many spelling/gramatical errors as i like thank you very much! So there!

Gosh i should know better than to even vaguely cuss the utterly perfect Grunt. (Even though Invisibles rips of "Valis" mightily, an the Filth rips off "A Scanner Darkly") mwahahaha
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:44 / 19.07.04
I agree, we've managed to keep up a pretty good thread on The Filth here, let's not descend into personal insults.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:56 / 19.07.04
On the question of timing,how do people see the timeframes in the last two issues working? I'm assuming that we have Greg fighting Spartacus Hughes from issue 12, then his assault on the Hand HQ where he meets Mother Dirt, start of issue 13, he goes home, the compressed shock of his experiences gives him a heart attack, end of issue 12, I-Life Filth saves him and he starts spreading the love around and starting a new life, end of issue 13.

And another point, as I've just been looking through my copy of issue 13. Page 3, a room full of Tonys, being programmed. Why would the Hand need so many Tonys? Why would they need one? Page 6, Miami says "You're not a killer anymore! We recycled you!" Is Greg a parapersona too? Is 'Greg' a means to deal with someone infected with 'Spartacus Hughes'?
 
 
Michelle Gale
21:59 / 19.07.04
I kind of think all them Tonys was Grant commenting on us human types just being animals, being "hypnotised" or whatever by images were presented with that we find desirable. With Tony its food/ mice etc with Greg its porn.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
22:52 / 19.07.04
"Just as there were animals that challenged the misanthropic view, there should have been threats to Status Q which also challenged the misanthropic view. There weren't, thus the comment that

the view of order vs chaos is plenty balanced in The Filth

does not entirely ring true.
"

But it does, cos the fact that Greg genuinely loves his little Tony hardly makes the Hand more appealing. Bear in mind that the Hand would've offed the scraggly little bastard in issue one if Greg had let them. Clearly preserving Tony's life doesn't really fall under the heading of preserving Status Q, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is here.

"Im dyslexic so im alowed to make as many spelling/gramatical errors as i like thank you very much! So there!

Ah, good sir, that comment was but a silly aside, not intended to burn the ears of any poster in particular. Besides, my spelling/grammar in this thread has been appalling, so I'd be pretty stupid to try and insult other people based on their aptitude with the keyboard wouldn't I?

"Gosh i should know better than to even vaguely cuss the utterly perfect Grunt. (Even though Invisibles rips of "Valis" mightily, an the Filth rips off "A Scanner Darkly") mwahahaha"

Hey, I don't care if anyone wants to cuss Morrison's writing, and I don't think anyone here is going to pretend that his work is perfect. I was simply disagreeing with some of your points, is all...
 
  

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