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The Filth Revisited

 
  

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eeoam
16:24 / 09.07.04
This represents one man's attempt to get to grips with the 21st century comic book known as the Filth. Is it an ultrasubtle artifact years ahead of its time or yet another example of a writer who has disappeared up his own rear end?
Over the next thirteen days I will examine each issue, not to dissect it for symbolism or whatever but to answer the simple question: is it a good story? Contrary to what some may believe I do believe that there exists objective criteria for assessing whether a story is good or not. Note that just because a story is good it does not follow that one enjoys it. There are plenty of good stories that aren't one's cup of tea and loads of crap that nevertheless entertain. You may not have enjoyed studying Julius Caesar in school, but you'd be hard pressed providing a convincing argument that it's a bad piece of writing, which is of course one of the reasons it has survived so long and will no doubt be performed long after the X-Men have faded from memory.
Now without further ado, let us delve into #1...

US VS THEM
Well all in all this seems a fairly straightforward twenty three pages. One of the problems with GM's style of writing is that it tends to suffer from a disjointed rhythm. The dialogue doesn't always flow from one speaker to the next I often have to read bubbles twice to understand what the person was saying. Ultimately however, this issue seems fairly straightforward. A lonely old man turns out to be a secret agent working for something called the Hand. We don't know too much about them at this point, but it's only the beginning of the story so that's to be expected. What we do know is that something so big has happened that it has forced the Hand to 'interrupt' Officer Slade's retirement. Presumably this has something to do with what 'Simon' buys from the cigar-smoking man at the end of the issue. The last page serves as an interesting book ending to the first, though weren't there three of them?

As comic books go this isn't too bad, however Us Vs Them suffers from the effects of Morrison's idea diarrhea. Do we really need to know that the buyer was once a $750 000 a year lawyer who is now 'a mindless living machine?' Why does she have to tell us (twice!) that she had her right eye replaced with a camera? (At least the second time sort of made sense but the first time was totally gratuitous) I can just about forgive the oral sex invitation though it strikes me as a forced attempt to 'shock' the reader. Perhaps GM should have tried to develop these two character more deeply instead of taking the easy way out and resorting to transparent attention grabbing.

Tomorrow: Perfect Victim.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:06 / 09.07.04
>>>The last page serves as an interesting book ending to the first, though weren't there three of them?<<<

Im presuming by "them" you mean Spartacus Hughes, the mustachioed smoking man - in which case no, there's only the one. The first page is a kind of a time-lapse thing, in which three very close, successive moments in time are seen simultaneously.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
17:22 / 09.07.04
I'm not too sure about how productive my contributions to a thread like this would be, cos I'm not convinced that any of my reasons for why this is a good story rather than a bad one are gonna convince you. This in itself is one of the reasons that I'm not convinced that an objective criteria for rating a story exists. So many arguments about what is good or not end up boiling down to two people shouting "it's good" and "it's shit" at each other, regardless of the levels of analysis provided by either side. For example, you don't seem to fond of Morrison's odd dialogue rhythms, while I like them a lot -- they throw me off, from time to time, but I mostly find this to be conducive to the jarring atmosphere of stories such as The Filth.

That said, I don't find too much to disagree with in your assesment of the first issue. Or rather, I think you break it down quite well, but disagree slightly on whether or not some of the elements of this issue have a "point."

About now I should also point out that I'm going to have a hard time discussing each issue as though I don't know what comnes next like you seem to have done -- my thoughts about everything in US vs THEM are very heavily coloured by what would follow, and I don't really want to try to pretend otherwise.

With all that bollocks out of the way, here are my thoughts on this issue:

Your breakdown of what we discover in this issue seems very dead on to me -- it's just right for a first chapter of this sort of story, I think. You don't really know exactly what's going on to cause the action in this chapter, but that's okay -- that's what the second issue is for.

On the whole, I'd say that most of the fragmented story shifts in this series worked for me, partly because they seemed very in tune with the disorientation of the main character, and partly for reasons that I'm going to discuss later on in this post.

Moving on:

"Do we really need to know that the buyer was once a $750 000 a year lawyer who is now 'a mindless living machine?' Why does she have to tell us (twice!) that she had her right eye replaced with a camera? (At least the second time sort of made sense but the first time was totally gratuitous) I can just about forgive the oral sex invitation though it strikes me as a forced attempt to 'shock' the reader. Perhaps GM should have tried to develop these two character more deeply instead of taking the easy way out and resorting to transparent attention grabbing."

As I see it there was only really one fully developed character in the whole series (Feely/Slade), but that's okay -- the other characters, such as Spartacus Hughes, worked for me as OTT grotesques in a sort of Blue Jam/Jam-era Chris Morris sort of way. They function both as a source of preposterous black humour (or as underwhelming attempts at shock value, depending on whether or not you find yourself amused), and also as a part of the silly but ultimately very bleak world in which this comic takes place.

Morris' Jam-era material is a good point of comparison, I think, because as we will discover later in the series, the threats that the hand face are largely very purile and destructive in nature -- often in a very crudely sexual way. In his Jam material Morris presents civilized scenes and situations with troubling, often violently sexual, under or overtones to a variety of different effects, and I think there's a slightly similar purpose to the juvenile humour here (also, this is another reason wh ythe structure of this series works for me -- it felt like a series of very British comedy sketches with overarching themes, characters and plot threads etc).

Anyway, these destructive acts are tied into the consumption pornography and violence in the media throughout the series, a fact which the details about the camera eye in this unfortunately brutalised character makes clear here. That's the "point" of the last scene, as I see it -- to emphasise the idea that every brutal thing that is done in this world can be watched or made into a product. There's also some thematic crossover here with the scene in which we are introduced to Greg Feely -- we see him buying porn (more consumption of titilating, purile mateiral), picking his nose etc through the medium of the security camera. This adds another layer to this area of the story -- it's not only extreme situations that are turned into viewing material here, but also all of the lonely, isolated little moments in your life. Even the one's you're ashamed of (note Greg's embaressment at the shopkeeper's attempt at conversation/at the presence of schoolgirls in his first scene).

I could say more, but as I've already demonstrated, I'm not very good at pretending I don't know how this stuff fits into the larger scale of the story, so I'm going to chill on the commentary for now, though I will say that the last page is a pretty good introduction of one the book's main themes -- that of viewing society from different perspectives, from the cellular level upwards.

I'm sorry about whatever spelling and grammar errors I've made in this post, and I do hope that this post isn't entirely antithetical with the way you'd hoped this thread would go. It's been fun to write all of this stuff anyway, sop hey!
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:24 / 09.07.04
Im presuming by "them" you mean Spartacus Hughes, the mustachioed smoking man - in which case no, there's only the one. The first page is a kind of a time-lapse thing, in which three very close, successive moments in time are seen simultaneously.
Yeah, I remember thinking that was very cool when I saw the 3 of them on the same panel but in different times (kinda like there were 3 panels with no panel seperation). A couple of people brought up the fact that other artists had used this before, but it's the 1st time I remember seeing it, and I thought it was really neat.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
17:25 / 09.07.04
Yeah, the time-lapse thing was really eye-cathing in the previews. Got me dead excited so it did!
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:33 / 09.07.04
CameronStewart Im presuming by "them" you mean Spartacus Hughes, the mustachioed smoking man - in which case no, there's only the one. The first page is a kind of a time-lapse thing, in which three very close, successive moments in time are seen simultaneously.

But while that is absolutely true, Spartacus Hughes does turn up in the story three times.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I can talk about this on an issue by issue basis. I'm also one of the people Grant talks about in his interview that don't understand him, I understand the story almost completely, I just have issues with his presentation.

But back to the Spartacus Hughes thing. It's a bit annoying because there's nothing to signify that there aren't actually three identical characters standing around the woman and the effect doesn't get used again anywhere in the story. Which pisses me off a bit, as it's just a flashy first page to get everyone's attention but doesn't mean anything.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
19:55 / 09.07.04
I agree that it'd have been better if we'd seen more of that technique throughout that series, but as it stands I either take it as a throwaway stylistic trick to grab everyone's attention on the first page, like Flowers said, or as a moment of violence fetishised from multiple POVs at once. I'm not really that bothered either way -- I just like it is all.
 
 
LDones
23:31 / 09.07.04
Long post ahead, please bear with me - because I'm right.
I believe Our Lady is OTM. It's counterintuitive on a number of levels to
discuss the Filth issue by issue - the bigger picture's much more important if
you're looking to pick apart the story & penetrate the subtext. I didn't get the
actual chronology of the thing until I read the trade, where having the entire
thing laid out at once in front of you fills in the blanks between concepts.

I don't know that the Filth can be easily understood without having been through
some terrible experience with having your body rebel against you and seeming to
leave you for dead. I wouldn't be surprised if it can, but I didn't get it until
I understood the autoimmune diseases that left me disabled two years ago.

This is the shit that I didn't know before I sat down and reread the thing in
trade:

The whole experience with the Hand takes place within a miniscule amount of time
during Greg's suicide attempt - it's mixed in with what are likely real events
leading to his suicide attempt, but it all happens in his head at that moment
where he's dying on his kitchen floor. That giant hand is his, the ink is his,
the Filth is his suicide note and all the trash that fell on the floor next to
him.  That's why they have to go micro to reach Hand HQ (I'm reminded of
the old JLA issue where it says that Hell is in the spaces between things). 
It is his brain working out what he feels and the terror of his life. Whether
it's 'real' or not is irrelevant. Mother Dirt says she 'selected' him for
initiation - that is, initiation through a terrible fucked up life filled with
self-loathing and fear and inadequacy. To what end is utterly debatable, but its
his imagination building a house, a fantasy, that his fears can live in where
they'll be transformed into something else - something hopefully more positive
so that he can ultimately survive his ordeal.

Each 'encounter' with a 'villain' that he has with the Hand is Greg (and Grant)
confronting the things that terrify him most about existence - the possibilities
of his life that are too terrible to bear. The Anti-Persons are fears
personified, Qlippoths, too, but I think it helps to avoid the Qaballa symbolism
to really get it.

1st Encounter: Simon the Billionaire - Greg's Existential Despair - God
Is Dead, We've Been Bought & Sold, & the Ones In Charge Are Psychos -
The I-Life are us. The person who created the world is dead and gone and the
planet was bought & sold to someone who could give a fuck. The New God pisses
into the ruins of the world and turns it into The Ultimate Debauch, a really
ugly thing, perverting the I-Life (science's new ultimate healers) into killers
(purportedly).

2nd Encounter: Arno Von Vermun - Fear of Getting Old and dying
ungracefully - Von Vermun uses time as a weapon to murder innocent people. 
It's a fairly straightforward correlation.

3rd Encounter: Anders Klimakks & Tex Porneau - Ultimate Sexual Inadequacy
& Depravity - Rape - that ultimate denial of choice and control in the face of
overwhelming sexual terror.  Anders is also an anti-person because he's the
New Model and he makes everything else on the planet with a cock sexually
inadequate.  Hardcore Porno is quite often about loneliness and
power-fantasy fueled by inadequacy - but it just keeps the inadequacy going when
its on that level.  Same with Greg watching guys like Anders (even if he is
a pretty cool guy).

4th Encounter: Libertania - Utopia is Bullshit and just a hair away from
murderous, raping anarchy anyway - It's kind of key here, though, that what
happens afterward is another form of consciousness, after 'the fall', as it
were.

5th Encounter: Max Thunderstone - Behind every superhero is a sad little
momma's boy with sexual inadequacy issues living out his power fantasies - and
in the real world he'd just be strung up and burned alive or converted into a
shill for All The Wrong People, anyway.

6th Encounter: Greg Feely/Ned Slade - It's Greg's final rage at being
saddled with his existence and feeling like he's been told all this bullshit
from so many people who tried to assure him that everything was working fine and
that the universe was perfect when it fucking well was not. You know, he becomes
King Mob to take on his aggressors and Get His Revenge, but by attempting to
destroy this structure he's only attacking himself - tearing down the ideas he's
imagined, that house he built to deal with his 'crisis' (which he had to do to
come out on the other side of his suicide, both the building and the eventual
tearing down) . It isn't so much that you spread the Shit of Life on your
flowers, it's just that it makes them grow if you can put it in your mind to
take it in your hands and put it in the earth.

I'm not entirely sure what the deal with Feely's supposed alliance w/ Arno & Max
Thunderstone & Spartacus Hughes is, but I have my theories (they're just not
particularly developed).

Another point:

Everyone in the Hand is someone who either hates themselves or has had a
terribly traumatic experience with human frailty or both - they were all subject
to the harsh reality of 'random terror' before joining the Hand - the Hand is
sort of imagination working things out for them - making existence bearable
somehow against what seem like impossible circumstances.

Moog Mercury was a sad little heroin-addicted comic book lover who wanted
to join his heroes and wrote X-rated stories about them in his spare time. He
was given significance in the imagination of the Hand by becoming an explorer of
the comic book worlds he loves, being significant in. But superheroes only exist
on the comics page - try to bring them into the 'real world' and they fall apart
(Moog set up the storyline of SO coming into the world so he could be with him -
Think of Grant wanting to bring Superman into the real world to be his friend
and then writing it to make it happen - SO's what happens when it goes wrong).

Cameron Spector was a terminal cancer patient.

LePen was a rape & attempted murder victim.

I don't know about Miami, but I think they mention it at some point - I
could be wrong. The obvious notion is that she was undergoing chemotherapy, but
I may be doing an injustice by assuming that.  (Greg wears a wig that
serves some special sci-fi purpose but its only real significance is that it
addresses his discomfort with baldness.  I assume Miami with same.) 
The list goes on.  (I'm not sure what the deal is with Man Green/Man
Yellow)

The Filth is about fear - every fear of emptiness and hollowness in every
concept that ever made us feel okay or right in the world.  Grant's always
been big on taking your weaknesses and your ultimate fears and finding ways to
turn them into strengths (and rightly so) - the Filth is entirely on that
subject, its just a lot heavier.  Reading it in issues makes it seem
modular, when it's really not - you have to sit down and read the whole thing
before it begins to become clear.

The Filth and its para-personas are what happens as people attempt to deal with
the horror of their real, non-comic book, non-pop-magicked, non-glamorous, very
often genuinely lonely and terrifying lives - they have to work it out with
their imagination or they die. Or rather, it's Grant's way of dealing with his
existential fears & despairs, and I think there's a lot of truth in it as to how
other people do the same. It helped me to get through two terrible years of same
(which I think quite a number of people experienced at a similar time, oddly
enough).

What Greg goes through, that rebellion, is a really a natural process of anger
when you're confronted with your own deterioration and mortality - fuck you,
fuck this, how dare you people walk around like everything's okay, it isn't fair
that I'm saddled with this bullshit burden and you're not, if you all saw the
fucking horrible truth of your lives you'd be a damn sight more humble and quiet
& respectful, fuck you, etc. But you can't do that. Like it says, nobody's
special, but everybody deserves the right to feel like they are.

The thing I understood most, or rather the message I received most loudly from
the Filth was that everybody out there just tells themselves whatever the fuck
they have to to make it through the goddamn day, even you, no matter how right
you think you are. That's the long & short of it. (In the popimage interview he
translates that by way of Monster Magnet into "Shut your mouth, you big fucking
baby!". That works, too.)

I used to kind of be afraid of it, (The Filth, I mean) since I became ill right
around the time it began coming out, and I kind of tied my experience to it for
awhile - I felt as though I might have become ill by 'exposure to the Filth
Sigil' or some equally self-important thing. I talked with Our Man George a
little about it at last year's Comicon in San Diego, too, which helped, but
didn't advance my understanding of the thing at all.  I'm gonna try to get
a talk in with him again this year, but we'll see.

Once I could stand on top the rock that lupus & fibromyalgia & thyroid disease
had chained to me to and could see the forest for the trees I got it.
 
 
CameronStewart
00:42 / 10.07.04
Great post!

>>> I'm gonna try to get
a talk in with him again this year, but we'll see.<<<

Unfortunately Grant isn't coming to SDCC this year, which I was quite disappointed to hear.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:18 / 10.07.04
nah, it's just about a man and his cat.
 
 
LDones
10:22 / 10.07.04
Thanks for the heads up, Cameron. I'll have to focus on trying to get drunk with Chynna Clugston-Major this year, then.

Blargh.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
14:14 / 10.07.04
...but if you can swing it (cuz its pricey) grant will be teaching -- along with paul laffoley and doug rushkoff -- at something called the omega insitute in new york in august. not sure of the details, but google around for it.
 
 
Bed Head
14:44 / 10.07.04
not sure of the details, but google around for it.

Or, look here. It’s quicker than googling.


(Great post btw, Ldones)
 
 
&#9632;
15:28 / 10.07.04
As usual, the first issue gives away a whole lot that carries through the series. The Hand briefing to Slade and Maimi assumes that the I-Life is malignant and dangerous because they assumes the doctor's death is their fault. It's not, she's the one getting the petrol treatment on the first page. They're just doing what comes naturally, using her corpse (filth) to create new life and energy.
Feeley has a deeper understanding that the I-life is valuable and rescues some of it (metaphorically or not). Damn, lost my train of thought, now.
 
 
eeoam
16:43 / 10.07.04
As you're sitting comfortably...

Something I neglected to mention yesterday were the interesting stylistic techniques used in Us Vs Them. There was the time lapse thing which Cameron and Co have so kindly explained. Now whenever I hear a writer crowing about the new style they're employing I get worried because in this day and age it usually means that the end product will be all style and no substance. But let us look at pages 3-5. One of GM's stated aims in this work was to draw attention to the 'surveillance society' we currently inhabit. He succeeds here because rather than have some character spout “gee, isn't so symptomatic of the age we live in that you can't take two steps without being on camera,” he shows the phenomenon's pervasiveness by demonstrating how plausible it is to construct a coherent narrative from the perspective of CCTV. In contrast he fails on the subject of the 'everyone wants to be a star' pathology in this issue precisely because all he does is have someone go, “And...and would you like me to clinch the deal with uninhibited oral sex? I'll tape it on the Internet for my artificial eye...” He's not showing anymore, he's telling. It no longer feels like a story unfolding before us. It's just someone trying to attract attention.

Big Sunny D and Our Lady of the Flamingoes - Please don't feel that you have to confine your comments to an issue by issue basis. I enjoyed reading your thoughts and don't worry too much about the work as a whole colouring your comments. I myself do not intend to necessarily limit myself in that way – it's just that the issues serve as obvious stopping points for this essay. The Filth never made much sense to me the first time so I can't say that I'm consciously affected by what happens next (for the most part I can't remember). As for worrying that we may not entirely agree on what makes a good story – unless you believe Chuck Austen's Romeo & Juliet adaptation was better than the original we should be able to find some common ground, even while entertaining differences.

LDones – After about the first sentence I stopped reading your analysis for a specific reason – if what you say is true I should be able to deduce this from reading the story itself. I shouldn't need a fine mind on Barbelith to explain it to me otherwise it means that the writer has failed in his communication. One of the aims of this thread is to seee how far I understand the story using only the tools available to me. How much can I understand it? Why might I have any problems engaging with the material? I don't know anything about Enochoan magic or whatever so all those references are meaningless. If you haven't assimilated reams and reams of 'magickal' material can you still enjoy the story? Or does the Filth use all that stuff as misdirection in an attempt to hide weak storytelling? These are the kinds of questions I want to answer.
Also whether you're reading it in trade form or single issue installments it's still in the same order (isn't it?) so something revealed in chapter 9 won't be known to someone who's only just read chapter one. The difference, of course, is how long you have to wait between chapters (if it's impossible to understand the story with a month's wait between chapters why release it in that format in the first place?) The key here is that I also want assess how these 'big reveals' are handled. Were they foreshadowed correctly? Just how hardcore a reader do have to be to understand the revelations made later in the story? Those absolutely vital to comprehension should not require a second reading. If GM did his job right you should simply have an 'aha' moment the first time around. Obviously I did not. Should I have? Assuming I possess the 'basic reading skills' GM said were needed to enjoy the comic, what went wrong?
I probably should have mentioned this yesterday but what I'm also doing is reading each issue again before posting, so there's only a day between chapters and it will take me thirteen days to reread the whole story. So when I post about today's chapter I won't have forgotten about yesterday's – if you like you can think of today as posting about Us Vs Them and Perfect Victim and tomorrow will be Us Vs Them and Perfect Victim and Structures and Ultrastructures and so on. Nevertheless do not feel that you need to constrain your comments in anyway. Just say whatever you want. We'll sort it all out at the end.
I think we've all suffered a particularly terrible illness at some point (four years ago I got horribly sick with what I thought was flu, but was like no flu ever – my throat got so sore every time I swallowed I had sudden debilitating pain in my ears – first my right ear and then it 'moved' to the left. I was coughing like there was no tomorrow and my nose would bleed and then clot so I couldn't breathe. Removing the obstruction only resulted in a resumption of the bleeding and the cycle would begin again) however if you're saying that autoimmune disease is a prerequisite for understanding the Filth... well wouldn't a good writer be able to use the medium of story to allow us access to these kind of thoughts and feelings whether or not we're already familiar with them?

PERFECT VICTIM

This chapter gives us Ned Slade's first as far as he is concerned last mission.
First we're given some more info about the Hand. Morrison tries to keep the exposition interesting by using the 'weirdness' factor. I might very well have been better to hold off explain the various Hand departments until we actually need to see them. There's quite a bit of information here and the way in which it is presented could very easily overwhelm the reader. Of course it could be argued that we are supposed to be seeing all this from Greg's perspective, (except for all but two panels on page 7) so we're supposed to be as taken aback as he is.
Next we're briefed on the mission. We learn the identity of the poor unfortunate soul murdered last issue and why she's important. Apparently her pet I-Life (any similarity to the Teletubbies is purely coincidental) have been horribly perverted and it's Ned's job clean the mess up.
As an interesting aside when one bares in mind GM's complaints about the reception of the book Miami's words here seem to take on new dimension.
Next we're off to take care of business. We get to meet Simon the mysterious buyer briefly, learn that the I-Life may not be as compromised as we had thought thus there's no need to destroy them and Hughes is defeated, interestingly not by the ingenuity of Ned Slade, but the ignorance of Greg feely.
Not that Feely is that ignorant. Something about the Hand doesn't smell right to him, above and beyond its weirdness. He decides to go back to his old life. But didn't that strange woman warn that “the Hand never lets go”?

Perfect Victim flows a bit better than Us Vs Them but it might well have benefitted from some judicious streamlining, particularly early in the chapter. Overall though, it's still pretty comprehensible and still a good comic book.

Tomorrow: Structures and Ultrastructures...
 
 
Triplets
18:26 / 10.07.04
Man Yellow/Man Green are Gilbert and George. From the odd-style of speaking, the linked/homesexual overtones, the aloof british gentlemen in suits getup and the art-style they're presented in.

Read the latest Morrison interview, he says G&G made their lives into Art. Which is what Greg does in the moment of his suicide, he turns his life into a bizarre pop-cult masterpiece.
 
 
&#9632;
19:11 / 10.07.04
I thought the use of G&G was a touch of genius. If I'm not mistaken, excrement/filth has played a part in some of their work.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
21:05 / 10.07.04
Interesting points on showing vs telling in Us vs Them. Regardless of how we each rate the use of these respective techniques in this issue, is it just me who actually thinks that telling is, on a general level, just as valid a storytelling as showing? Both methods can be done badly, and both methods can be done well -- I think it's very much down to what the author is going for and how well they pull it off, to be honest with you.
 
 
LDones
08:47 / 11.07.04
Thanks for the info on the Omega Institute thing. I might try to check that out.

eeoam:
I think you may be splitting hairs with that artificial eye. You can examine technique with Morrison, but his techniques aren't his strongest point (Ref. Invisibles). It's more that he has an amazing cohesion of multi-layered ideas that are simultaneously insane-&-over-the-top and deeply, sensitively human.

How hardcore a reader do you have to be to get the Filth? About that 'basic reading skills' comment, I think he meant that he believed it could be enjoyed without absorbing the greater thematic significance is all - I'm sure critically absorbing it issue by issue like you/we are will come up with a good spectrum of opinions as to whether or not that's true.

Like Catholic altar boys in trouble, Morrison stories cry out for penetration. On the surface they're still generally highly enjoyable to a wide audience (even without the depth of subtext beneath), but I don't know about the objective quality of the Filth on that level, or its ability to be appreciated as a standalone story - I'm normally able to remove myself in a critical sense, but I have a hard time not noticing what I see as intense brilliance beneath what seemed so vague at first in the Filth. I think it's fucking fabulous, even if it is only targeted at a miniscule audience who can relate (and I don't think that it is - I enjoyed it even before I felt like I understood it, and I may still be way off the mark with my ideas about it, anyway.)

Does Morrison fail in communicating these complex and freaky ideas to a general non-hardcore audience who might not have Some Dude on Barbelith to explain it? Well, I got it on my own without Some Dude, but I never would have 'got it' without what I went through, & thus relating so closely to Greg Feely (minus the cats). I think it's a good thing that you don't get references to magic, etc. - that stuff can help understand the reasoning behind certain thematic choices, but in the case of the Filth I think it just makes things more complex than they have to be.

Does it fail because it's nigh-impenetrable in monthly form (if indeed it is)? Lots has been said on the cohesion of George Morrison stories in monthly format over the past year or so. I do think it reads better as a whole story than as a series drawn out over a year, but I wasn't exactly in a frame of mind to absorb it properly during that year anyway.

Autoimmune disease is definitely not a prerequisite to understanding the Filth, and I hope it didn't seem as though I was intimating that - what I meant was that existential despair on the level that comes with being diagnosed with a permanent, incurable malady that cripples you, shortens your life expectancy and collapses your feelings of safety, solidarity, competence, and possibility in your life can very easily put you through the same sort of journey Greg goes through in the Filth. - but I feel rather stupid putting it that way. I would say that I would not have appreciated a lot of what was put into the book(s) if I hadn't been faced with such a direct acceleration of my body deteriorating, and had to confront the idea that I was dying faster than most everybody I knew. Other folks might get it on their own - I wouldn't have. What I wrote here yesterday I didn't get until very recently, and I 'got' only through personally having an experience that in some way mirrored Greg's (emotionally, anyway). For me, it was largely about figuring out a way to turn my life into art again, too. Just not so vividly quirky (though parts of the past two years of my life have indeed been drawn by Chris Weston, I'm sure of it).

I'm looking forward to this discussion as it moves along.

Oh, and for anyone like myself who may not know anything about Gilbert & George (for reasons of Being American or otherwise), I found this particular page via Google, and it filled me in right proper.
 
 
eeoam
18:37 / 11.07.04
Structures and Ultrastructures

In this chapter we get to see more Greg's real life. I wonder if perhaps we shouldn't have seen more of this before being introduced to the Hand. Possessing a good grounding in normality would have increased the effect of being thrown into the otherworldly Hand.
The major complication of the story at this point seems to be Greg's battle to stay out of the Hand. But there's a problem – Greg at this point doesn't have a strong enough reason to say no. I mean why doesn't he want to work for them? Because it's too weird? Because the double is too miserly to buy expensive cat food for Tony? Unlike poor old Greg we do want to see more awesome adventures with the Hand, or e would have stopped reading the book by now. Thus if we are to truly empathise with Greg, we need to understand his reasons more than we do at the moment.
Since Greg is at home again, this chapter's weirdness quotient is satisfied by a look at what's happening in one of the departments of the Hand, the Frequency(if I interpreted the symbol correctly). Apparently they have technology that allows them to enter and exist giant comic books at will. But that's not all. One of the comic book's characters, Secret Original found a way to enter the Hand's dimension, though not without cost. Dismayed to learn the true nature of his existence, he tries to find a way to save himself and those he loved in the comic, but ends up seduced by hard core comic porn. At least that's what he says in his grand monologue. Though an interesting idea, it's not clear yet what part this character plays in the story. We'll just have to wait and see.

Big Sunny D - Consider the following example:
"The man was sad."
The problem with the above is that discerning readers will demand evidence the above assertion. How do you know he's sad? Maybe his face just looks that way?
"The man stared at nothing, his breakfast, which had long since gone cold, sat untouched before him."
With the second passage more is left to our interpretation. You might not necessarily convince your self that the man is sad, but you will come to some sort of conclusion about the man's state of mind and because you deduced it yourself, it will seem more authentic (Clever writers can use this technique to 'fairly' mislead the reader).
Showing (as opposed to telling aka being 'on the nose')requires more subtlety and greater knowledge of your characters and your world and has a tendency to create better stories.

LDones - I agree that "George" Morrison stories tend to at least try and be more than just a by-the-numbers exercise which is why I still read them even though I've officially given up on comics. You're definitely right, at least in the past, the big ideas have tended to have a certain humanity to them. One of the problems I've noticed is that all too often the humanity can end up playing second fiddle to the 'coolness' factor (contrast the far more developed second tier Invisible characters with the supposedly main characters). I had felt that that had happened here with the Filth - I'm using this discussion to see if perhaps I was wrong.

Next: s**t happens...
 
 
eeoam
18:46 / 11.07.04
P.S. I too am enjoying this discussion. Your comments are both intelligent and enlightening.
 
 
&#9632;
19:48 / 11.07.04
What interests me is who exactly is/was Feeley. Feeley finds out that Slade is a chemical parapersona, but in 'shit happens', the evil Feeley says that Feeley is one as well. This is sneaking into the Invisibles 'all fictionsuits of each other' territory. Who is the evil Feeley? Is he just a self-rationalisation for nice Feeley's life going shit? If so, what's the significance of Comrade 9 shooting the wrong one later?
Hughes, Feeley and many others are created by the Hand (occasionally contemporaneously) and then wiped out by it.
It seems the traumatising experience is what matters to the Hand which (aha!) could be an analogy for a healthy immune system feeling shit while it wipes out an infection.

Still throwing out ideas. Only my second reading. Took me a whole book and three reads to really get the Invisibles.

One moment that stood out as a "wha...?" last night was issue 3's (page 71 in the TPB) panel which showed Mrs Twine's paedo-fear going into the ear of Captain S.O.. Is that iffy scripting?
 
 
bigsunnydavros
22:26 / 11.07.04
"Big Sunny D - Consider the following example:
"The man was sad."
The problem with the above is that discerning readers will demand evidence the above assertion. How do you know he's sad? Maybe his face just looks that way?
"The man stared at nothing, his breakfast, which had long since gone cold, sat untouched before him."
With the second passage more is left to our interpretation. You might not necessarily convince your self that the man is sad, but you will come to some sort of conclusion about the man's state of mind and because you deduced it yourself, it will seem more authentic (Clever writers can use this technique to 'fairly' mislead the reader).
Showing (as opposed to telling aka being 'on the nose')requires more subtlety and greater knowledge of your characters and your world and has a tendency to create better stories."


Nah, as as I said before, I genuinely think that you can "tell" in an artful way -- there's more to the process of telling than just stating things flatly (thoughthat in itself could be part of a subtle technical/thematic process if used correctly). In the Filth example you sited, I like the "telling" because it fits into one layer of the overall aesthetic of the series. During the course of The Filth, many characters talk in the hyperbolic crudely "on the nose" language of pornography and tabloid headlines, and this strikes me as being an important part of the surrealized environment in which this story takes place. It also play into variosu themes hinted at in my previous large post, so yeah, I like it!

The specifics of exactly how you "tell" artfully obviously vary from story to story and from medium to medium, but I genuinely believe that you can do one fuck of a lot with "telling" in a story.

On the whole your breakdowns of the first two issues from a plot POV have reinforced what I thought all along -- that this wasn't a particularly hard series to follow in a "this happens and then this happens" way. Whether or not you think the execution was good or not, and whether you think that it adds up to anything are obviously very much up to you, but... I just don't think that it's a particularly "difficult" series to understand on a literal level.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
22:35 / 11.07.04
By the way, I would like to point out that I do very much understand what's wrong with "bad" telling (it can be very clumsy, I agree) -- it's just that I think that there isn't any absolute rule here.
 
 
&#9632;
22:47 / 11.07.04
I think the 'bad' telling of Sharon Jones' monologue makes it all the more creepy and nasty when you realise it's not her talking and she manages to sneak through. This narcisstic twat who is controlling her (and who is dispatched pretty quickly) is shown even before we meet him as a total arse.
She, on the other hand is an important development later on, and she needs to be there right at the start.
I think that compared to much of the exposition that goes on early in comics generally, this is a clever and chilling subversion. I think George is showing us a lot while telling us in a new way.
 
 
Michelle Gale
23:11 / 11.07.04
I know this is a bit off topic but did anyone else notice how similar t`filth is to Phillip K Dicks "a scanner darkly" only with the counter cultural theme emphasised and shagging taking the place of drugs? its almost exactly the same.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
06:18 / 12.07.04
Cube -- that's exactly what I was vaguely flailing at re: Sharon Jones.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:07 / 12.07.04
Eeeoam, this

After about the first sentence I stopped reading your analysis for a specific reason – if what you say is true I should be able to deduce this from reading the story itself. I shouldn't need a fine mind on Barbelith to explain it to me otherwise it means that the writer has failed in his communication.

is nonsense. There are a million things out there (books, films, plays, art, music.....) that you may have difficulty getting your head around. Finnegan's Wake, anyone? Some of the greatest works *ever* are difficult and a slight impenetrabilty doesn't equal bad writing (should make it clear that I'm not necessarily arguing for the literary canonization of the Filth here).

I don't think Dones's reading has much to do with enochian magic. Shares just as much in common with psychotherapy, really.
 
 
eeoam
14:41 / 12.07.04
Penetrability

I have to say, the Filth does not seem as impenetrable as I recall. So why was it so hard to read the first time? Clearly the first time around laid the groundwork, albeit unconsciously for the second reading. Is this something you have no hope of understanding until at least the second time around? I don't know. I can't say why it was so hard to read the first time, only that it was.

Marriche -
Eeeoam, this

After about the first sentence I stopped reading your analysis for a specific reason – if what you say is true I should be able to deduce this from reading the story itself. I shouldn't need a fine mind on Barbelith to explain it to me otherwise it means that the writer has failed in his communication.

is nonsense.


Not if the writer goes on record over and over again maintaining that you need only 'basic reading skills' to penetrate the work.

Deep Fired Koala Cube -

I think the 'bad' telling of Sharon Jones' monologue makes it all the more creepy and nasty when you realise it's not her talking and she manages to sneak through.

I might actually be able to accept this but for one simply reason – this telling phenomenon isn't unique to the Filth – it's a staple of George's writing. Just about every character he writes has a habit of speaking in the same way. In fact I believe he got this from Claremont, though he has modified it a bit (Joss Whedon has the same problem). At best he's made some alterations to incorporate the tabloid style you mentioned.

s**t happens

Greg agrees to rejoin the Hand - hardly surprising given that he never really had a solid reason to say no to them in the first place, especially in light of his exchange with Dimitri 9 in Structures and Ultrastructures. A old man with the identification of an 18 year old (and long painted nails) is found dead. Ned arrives to find another Hand agent at the scene, Dr Von Vernum and greets him in a manner which, as Von Vernum obliquely points out, foreshadows Ned's true intentions for him.
Discovering that the Crack plays a part in these deaths, Ned and Von Vernum return there whre they crash and find themselves stranded far from safety. Ned eventually unmasks Von Vernum as the killer and dispatches him. He then struggles back to Headquarters, driven by the need to keep his promise to his cat.

The key problem here is that at the story seems to be little more than a guy with a cat he cares about goes on wack missions for the Hand, a secret agency which deals with bad or anti-people. There's no greater issue at stake as yet. Nevertheless there is evidence that there's might be more to this. Who is Max Thunderstone? Why can't Greg fully remember being Ned and why doesn't the Hand seem particularly worried about this? Why does Greg's double possess such antipathy towards Tony? Is he just not a cat person? Or is there something more? It remains to be seen how well thtese questions will be answered.

Tomorrow: Pornomancer...
 
 
The Natural Way
20:03 / 12.07.04
Not if the writer goes on record over and over again maintaining that you need only 'basic reading skills' to penetrate the work.

Maybe. But I'm fairly sure that's just George's frustration speaking.

And it doesn't change the fact that "difficult" does not equal "bad".

That's fair enough, isn't it?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
00:56 / 13.07.04
I loved Ldones big essay from a couple of days ago. Being neither as clever or as ill as him I've tended to read The Filth on a more literal level which is where it falls down. We have the whole story of Sharon Jones/I-Life/Tony the Cat, but in the penultimate issue she'd dispatched off-page by Sparticus Hughes. Tony vanishes never to be seen again yet Greg has become infected with I-Life himself. After killing him off twice the Hand suddenly are doing deals with Sparticus against Greg. Greg goes homicidal when he discovers Ned is the fake personality rather than Greg, i would have thought that as the character hates his life as Ned and is desperate for his simple life as one man and his cat he would have been happy for the validation. But if Ned is the injectable personality, WHY do they spend twelve issues trying to persuade a bloke with a faulty implant that he's the only one that can be Ned Slade. And the comicsworld thing is so rushed in the two issues it's in I tend to feel it would be better if it hadn't been included at all.

Based on the recent interview Grant has done I would say that there are chunks of The Filth written at times when Grant was in great mental distress and they suffer for that. You can read 'Gulliver's Travels' and have a perfectly happy experience without referring to the notes or knowing that so-and-so is a reference to such-and-such, I think that there are too many incidents in The Filth that only work if you know about something else or if you transpose it into the realm of metaphor, move on a few steps and then come back to what we see in the story (the fact that we only know about what The Filth uses the comicworld for in a reply to a letter is a case in point) (And I'm not trying to say 'The Filth' is a failure because it's not as good as 'Gulliver's Travels').
 
 
Michelle Gale
09:17 / 13.07.04
hookay...

The agent of social/state control and the breaker of those social boundies are one and the same person, confused as to their "true" identity.

Both of those two "personalities" operating at the same time within the narative as seperate entities.

The protagonist even has a suit that renders the user unidentifiable and almost without identity when operating as an agent of social control just like "a scanner". Fair enough both the suits differ in the manner in which They operate bu they both essentially have the same function.

the main Lurrrve interest is eventually shown to have a similar role by the end albeit one with more adjustment to the system in which she operates.

The basic idea running through the novel of counter culture simply being indicative of lack of social integration also appears to be the same in "the filth" albeit far less balenced (buddhsimo?).

HoLLA!
 
 
bigsunnydavros
11:05 / 13.07.04
About the literal level of the Filth:

Well, having said a couple of posts ago that I don't think the series is hard to follow on a literal level, I think I should note that most people's difficulty seems to be tracing the logic behind the events. Now, there are certainly a few events that are (intentionally, I think) quite jarring in their logic (the rehabilitation of Sparticus Hughes being case in point), but I honestly don't think this is a problem.

As I have stated previously, I tend to view these elements of the story as being condusive to the atmosphere of disorientation at work in the series. As I have also mentioned, I find the absurdity and skewed logic of the series to work well as a series of insane comedy sketeches. Furthermore, I don't think that the highly metaphorical nature of the series is a fault -- in fact, it's one my favourite things about the Filth. I enjoyed engaging with the trash poetry of it on a monthly basis, and this enjoyment only increased upon re-reading the work as a whole. Your mileage may vary, and that's cool, but it worked for me.

That said, I certainly don't think it's a flawless series -- like Flowers, I would have very much liked more of the Sharon Jones story to be resolved on-page, but hey...

Heh -- having set up my reasoning for why I don't stress on the literal logic of the series, I'm now going to get really boring and discuss some of the logic gaps that don't seem that illogical to me!

eeoam said (about Greg's decision to quit the hand at the end of issue #2):

"But there's a problem – Greg at this point doesn't have a strong enough reason to say no. I mean why doesn't he want to work for them? Because it's too weird? Because the double is too miserly to buy expensive cat food for Tony?"

Is that really true though? He's just been plucked out of everyday life, told he's someone else entirely, had another personality crudely smeared on top of his own, and then been used as a distraction for a man who he's been informed was a highly trained killer. I don't know about you, but I'd be more than a little fucked off too.

Flowers said (on the choppy nature of the series):

"the fact that we only know about what The Filth uses the comicworld for in a reply to a letter is a case in point"

The material on CrackComicks fleshed out what the purpose of Paperverse was, but I thought it was pretty clear from issue #3.

Towards the end of the issue, Secret Original comes out with this line:

"They farm us, Eve; they farm us for the wonders we simply accept in our ignorance."

It doesn't require a huge amount of mental gymnastics to connect this to the fact that Moog brings back a weapon from the Papervese:

"Look. I brought this up intact from 2-Space"

"GREAT EMPYRIUS! Atom-Avenger's Thermrevolver... real."

Or even, with this little throwaway tit-bit of information/quippage from Moog:

"Rule number 1: we learn something new everytime we do crazy things"

Could I suggest, with a wry smile on my face, that in issue #3, we are primarily shown the purpose of the paperverse, rather than told about it?

Flowers also says:

"But if Ned is the injectable personality, WHY do they spend twelve issues trying to persuade a bloke with a faulty implant that he's the only one that can be Ned Slade."

Two resons:

(A) It's all in his head -- of course they're going to try and recruit him instead of marching off and finding another host.

(B) It's not in his head at all -- "A new not-self entered the system; in developing a response, it was necessary to expose you to the antigen." One could quibble over the literal meaning of this, but it works fine for me. Is it overly symbolic? Maybe. I don't know. Also, I don't care.

"You can read 'Gulliver's Travels' and have a perfectly happy experience without referring to the notes or knowing that so-and-so is a reference to such-and-such"

The only "specialist" area of knowledge that the Filth deals with that I have any knowledge of is the world of mainstream comics, and in particular Morrison's views on this world. I know fuck all about medicine or the immune system. I know less than fuck all about magical symbolism. I enjoyed reading the Filth, and I didn't need to refer to anything else to do so.

Curiously, I also greatly enjoyed Joyce's Ulysses, even though the first time I read it I did so while constantly referring to various notes on the novel. Subsequent readings have been less cover-to-cover, and have focussed more on the note-free enjoyment I can derive from the book, but I didn't find my use of notes the first time round to be any knock against either the quality of the text or an inhibition to enjoyment.

Jesus christ -- I think I'm starting to come across as someone with a deep psychological need to protect this series. Quite worrying, really.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
11:08 / 13.07.04
Argh -- me type clever!

"These" rather than "the"
"defend" rather than "protect"
etc...
 
 
The Natural Way
12:40 / 13.07.04
I think that there are too many incidents in The Filth that only work if you know about something else or if you transpose it into the realm of metaphor

Like Sunny, I just don't see what the problem is. Mythic, metaphoric and symbolic narratives aren't in and of themselves bad things. In fact, many of my fave creators often skew the distinction between *realism* and the Other Thing altogether.

And I'm still not sure anyone's got close to persuading me that I need to be in a headlock/manly bear-hug with the Outer Tree (which, if you look pay close attention, resembles like a squid) in order to understand and enjoy The Filth.
 
  

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