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Millar and the Spider-Man.

 
  

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FinderWolf
13:53 / 09.07.04
I was actually kidding -- just trying to bring the thread back to being about Spider-Man.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:31 / 27.09.04
So anyone still reading Millar's Spider-Man? Any more thoughts on it?

The last issue's scene with Norman Osborn in jail made me think: What was the point of Norman's story, exactly? That he intentionally gave the guard a shitty diagnosis to watch the guy's wife slowly die in pain? Or that he just didn't try very hard in diagnosing the guy? Or he tried hard and just got it wrong?

Also, wouldn't there be guards watching over Norman and hearing everything he says when he's in his cell...for example, calling Spidey Peter a few times?

I like where this story is going, though, I just wish we were given more clues about the villain.

I also thought it was a jip that the cover has all the X-Men and only Rachel Summers is in the actual issue. Although Rachel says "She [Aunt May] knew him...but he's not even human anymore..."

Maybe the mystery villain is Uncle Ben?
 
 
osymandus
21:03 / 27.09.04
Actually about Norman osbourne , can we have his identity publicly exposed , then, him arrested and tried for the murder of Gwen Stacy , then actually being executed for it , SO YOU CAN THINK UP SO FRIGGEN INTRESTING VILLIANS agggh.Enough already and boil up Venom and carangae while your there !!!!

GG: Hi im degranged and slightly strong becuase im mad
Spidey : Well i can lift a trick with one hand , know where your going to attack me and hit you , 15 times before you move .

GG: Are yes but i have a psychosis !
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:41 / 27.09.04
I thought Norman's tale was a cautionary one illustrating the inevitable results of asking for help from a green goblin.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:12 / 04.10.04
Didn't want to start a new thread just for this, but over in JMS' Amazing Spider-Man, he's got a story where 2 kids pop up -- and they're the children of Gwen Stacy!! They're twins, one boy and one girl. So the story turns to the mystery of "Was Peter the father?" And JMS hits us with the revelation that Norman was all depressed one day when Gwen was visiting the Osborn household (she had come to see Harry but Harry wasn't around) and Norman put the moves on her, she didn't resist, she went with it, they had sex (!!!) and the twins are in fact, Norman's children.

JMS tries to explain this by saying that Norman could often be very charismatic. Some fans have pointed out that Gwen had just lost her father so maybe she was vulnerable to father figures, and she was just a teen, not the best judgment in the world. Some fans say file it under the real life sexual escapades that many teens and adults say "it...just happened."

But most fans feel that Gwen Stacy never would have willingly SLEPT WITH NORMAN OSBORN -- she already had a romantic life with Harry and then with Peter, why would she be compelled to sleep with her friend's skeevy FATHER?!?! Very bizarre. JMS throws in that this must be why Norman-as-Goblin went after Gwen. JMS also reveals that Norman told the twins Peter was their father and told them to go kill Peter Parker because he abandoned them. The twins aged more rapidly than normal because of Goblin's wacko-super-enhanced blood.

(I thought in the regular, non-Ultimate Spidey history, Norman wasn't a superhuman, didn't take a serum, etc.? I thought he was just a crazy dude with money who put on a mask?)
 
 
John Octave
20:20 / 04.10.04
(I thought in the regular, non-Ultimate Spidey history, Norman wasn't a superhuman, didn't take a serum, etc.? I thought he was just a crazy dude with money who put on a mask?)

Nope. There was, like, a Goblin serum that gave him strength and speed and the like, which also made him insane. That's how he survived his "death"--turns out he has a healing factor (I also believe that's why the kids are prematurely aged).
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
21:23 / 04.10.04
Wow, I thought JMS was the one who was supposed to be able to write.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
00:00 / 05.10.04
I was going to wait til it was over to post on that story, but since it was already brought up:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Okay, besides the fact that Gwen sleeping with Norman is just fucking stupid:

1- Peter basically tells MJ that he never slept with Gwen. Which is idiotic. I hate how several writers (*cough* fuck you Kevin Smith *cough*) have suggested that Peter was a virgin til he married MJ. Never mind the whole living with Black Cat thing. Bitches.

2-Gwen wouldn't sleep with Peter but she slept with Osborn? Wait, doesn't she love Peter and hate that fucker? Even before he knocked her off a bridge?

3-Okay, yes, Norman went after Gwen specificly. But that's what I would have done too if I was a crazed super villian hell bent on making a point to a little nerd in red and blue spandex who had a really hot girlfriend. I mean, who else could he have offed? Peter wasn't with Mary Jane. Peter's best friend was a.) Norman's son and b.) already on the verge of death with the whole overdosing thing. JJJ's death wouldn't have mattered much to Peter. That left Aunt May and Gwen. Death of a parental figure is horrible, but Peter and Gwen were completely in love. I don't think killing May, when Peter still had Gwen for support, would have had the same effect as offing Gwen.
Norman Osborn is not a stupid man. He wanted to crush Peter's spirit. He did. (the fact that it backfired and killed him is...well... nobody's perfect)

And what really really pisses me off is that, for the most part, I was really liking JMS' run. I thought he had a real good grip on the character and history of it all. And then he pulls this shit!

(Spyder goes off to pout and plot vengence)
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
07:06 / 05.10.04
Yeah, it kind of baffles me. This story seems totally out of the blue for him, as far as I can tell. I mean he wasn't writing the greatest stories... but this is just straight wacky. Or maybe it's because there's no Romita jr. to salvage it, I dunno.

I never really bother reading the Spidey books, but I just happened to pick a couple up for train-time reading, but I now realise I would have been better off buying anything else so as to escape this terrible 90's time warp of a story.

Although you know, if I was Norman Osbourne, I'd feel pretty compelled to tell Peter I slept with the woman HE LOVED as much as possible. But also: hahahahaha. No.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:00 / 05.10.04
I agree with everything Spyder said.

The sad thing is that some fans are accepting this and saying "Heey, maaan, Gwen is human, she wasn't perfect, everyone has their moment of weakness when they do something stupid..." and justifying it that way.

And Joe Q. at Marvel is probably saying "Hey, at least people are talking about Amazing Spider-Man again and having spirited debates about it. Good for sales!"

No. NO!!!
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:14 / 05.10.04
Well I supose it's better than a flash-back sequence where she gets raped by him...
 
 
FinderWolf
19:25 / 05.10.04
You know, I was thinking "The only way this would work is if Gwen was raped by Norman (because no one can stomach the idea of Gwen willingly having sex with Norman). And rape is certainly something Norman Osborn could be capable of, given his history of murder and lust for power." BUT, then we'd have another major rape in comics, something I'm not sure the industry needs now.

This story would work if Harry was the father (Gwen did date Harry before Peter) and Norman wanted to claim the twins as his own, since he felt his son was a total wimp idiot and the sons now had Osborn blood in them. That's where I thought JMS was going with this.

And Gwen and Peter probably should have had sex, at least a few times. I agree that it's silly to say Peter was a virgin until MJ.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:18 / 05.10.04
I just don't buy Peter being a vergin till MJ...

not "doing it" with Gwen; somewhat plausable in making them much younger in retrospect. JMS seemed to be trying to say something about Gwen being attracted to people who have emence "power" hidden just beneath the surface. Something both Peter and Norman both had.

still it was rather lame and the cover of that issue was worse!!!
At this point I'm starting to see Millar's Spiderman as the definative spidey these days...

anyone reading Spectacular Spiderman?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
21:40 / 05.10.04
No.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:20 / 12.10.04
Augie DeBlieck had this to say about this story over in his column at comic book resources.com:

>> The thing about it, though, is that it's not -- to use a loaded term -- necessary. There was no unasked question about the original storyline. Goblin killed Gwen because she was Peter Parker's love. Nobody asked the questions JMS answers with this storyline. I know it's a great story for a writer to come up with -- the kind that promotions can hail as being "the story you never asked for -- but should have!" Some might even argue for the strength of character it takes a writer to create such a thing. But it doesn't add anything to the character anyone wants in their childhood sweetheart.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:23 / 12.10.04
Childhood sweetheart the what now? God, why are so many superhero comic fans so transparently damaged?
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
14:34 / 12.10.04
DON'T YOU DARE TAINT MY LOVE!
 
 
FinderWolf
14:52 / 12.10.04
Um, I think he was just saying the character is the lead character's first 'sweetheart' and was always portrayed as a strong, faithful type, and thus having this character have sex with a creepy, sleazy, wacko older man out of the blue (the father of her ex-boyfriend, no less) is kind of like tainting a character we like and have nice opinions of.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:01 / 12.10.04
But that's exactly what real women do! They'll rip out your heart without thinking, no doubt about it... but not Gwen! Gwen would never do this! Our love was PURE.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:20 / 12.10.04
LOL!

Joe Q has this to say on the matter from a Newsarama interview - seems he's taking the stance of 'hey, it's controversial! It gets readers excited, gets them talking! No one wanted Phoenix to die, remember - fans were outraged at the Dark Phoenix Saga! They said that was a horrible mistake, remember'? He actually makes the Dark Phoenix point in the interview and also says "Hey, the Spider-Man clone saga was a big seller, it got people excited and interested, we can debate whether it was good or not, but I still get tons of requests to print it as a huge paperback, believe it or not!"

>> Also, I think that when the story is finally told it makes her that more human to us and especially to Peter. I don't think he'll love her any less in the end if anything, this just brings her closer. In many ways, the goal behind our comics is for us to convey many heroic or valuable lessons, they are modern day morality plays to some extent. Peter forgives and understands what happened with Gwen, yet some readers can’t seem to get past it, I find that interesting but hopefully some people find it enlightening. I can’t tell you how many women I talk to that find it completely engaging and telling.

That last sentence is very weird and suspect to me. Can women really have that much interest in Gwen Stacy's romp with Norman Osborn, much less approve of the ret-con?
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:31 / 12.10.04
I find it hard to find women who aren't talking about this earth shattering development.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:41 / 14.10.04
JMS' defense of the "Gwen slept with Norman Osborn" storyline:

-----


Consider what you just wrote...that the character has been portrayed in the same way for *thirty years*. No change, no growth, no surprises...thirty YEARS.

Three decades.

Thirty years of lying fallow. Thirty years of being just one thing.

As a writer, I believe -- and this is subjective -- that if a character sits that long without anything new, the character is dead in more ways than one.
It's a bell that just rings out the same note endlessly.

I came out of the junior college system (before ending up at SDSU) and in the years after I got out of Southwestern College (the JC in question) I'd sometimes pop by to see teachers and stuff...and so many times, years and years
after I'd left, the same people were there...doing the same things they'd done before...taking similar classes...saying the same things they'd said
before...even to some extend *dressed* the same way.

No change. No growth.

Creeped me out in the worst way.

Now...on the flipside...I got an email last year from a woman I knew in high school (just a casual friend, no more than that), and she was talking about the guy she'd met there in class and, subsequently, married.

In the course of said email correspondence, she drops in the information that about a year or two ago he moved out, started in on hormones, and is en route to becoming a woman.

Even after thirty years, the most unlikely people in the world, the ones you thought you knew everything about, can surprise the hell out of you.

A few months ago, a woman I've known as a friend for nearly twenty years took her own life, something I could never have anticipated.

People change. Things change. The way we see them changes.

Yes, Gwen is no longer "alive" but as a fictional character she is really neither alive nor dead...but her character persists in the books, in whatever form, and in that respect she is as alive as anyone else...maybe, for Peter, moreso.

To leave a character stagnant, unchanging, and the way our main character views her as equally unchanging for thirty years is as close to the death of those characters as you can come. The one-note bell.

So you take a chance...you add a layer to Gwen that you couldn't have anticipated, as with the cases I noted above...where you think this couldn't be...but it is.

Phase one of the story is how does SHE react...does she stand with courage, does she try to do the right thing, or does she go the other way?

People who are never tempted, who are never put in places where they need to make hard decisions, have it easy and are the least interesting characters...it's when you put them up against a wall that they become compelling. I wanted to put her character up against that wall, to bring out stronger and, for all the railing against her, nobler characteristics. The Gwen who goes toe-to-toe with Norman, devil take the hindmost, is a woman who is worthy of Peter.

Phase two is how it affects Peter...does he turn against her, or does his affection for her allow him to accept this? Which requires greater strength?
Which tells us more profoundly what his character is like?

I've always tried to inject a level of realism in my work, and life is about change, about surprises, sometimes pleasant, sometimes not...what matters is how we *react* to those changes. Do they make us better or meaner? Stronger or weaker?

Go read "The Man Who Corrupted Hadleyburg" by Mark Twain to see this played out in ways better than I can describe it.

What you also have to remember is that I'm a *fan*. I grew up reading Spidey. I, too, had (and still have) tremendous affection for Gwen's character. Deciding to take on this story was very difficult for me.

But I felt it was in the end the right decision, and still do. Yeah, I could leave the characters exactly as they were, and have them not change for another five or ten years, however long I'm involved with the book...but would I *really* be doing my job, or just cashing checks?

Anybody who hasn't changed a whit, who hasn't grown or shown surprises as a person, in 30 years, as Twain said, is dead and rotten and should be shoved down a sewer.

jms

------------------------------
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:48 / 14.10.04
What you also have to remember is that I'm a *fan*.

I don't think this will be a problem...
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
17:48 / 14.10.04
Funniest ever! Does this mean, by his rationalisation, Peter will soon be finding out long dead enemies used to make out behind the bike sheds in a gay way - a shocking revelation only discovered by the appearance of their villanous offspring! People change! Even when they're dead! Because if they don't change, they're just dead! but as a fictional character she was never "alive", even though she is dead, she is still alive for Peter in many ways. Whu?

Was this really JMS? Did he really write that? Scarily idiotic.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
18:12 / 14.10.04
Dude, she's a comic book character. Whatever JMS is paid to write her as, it has no bearing on real life whatsoever.

The artwork in these recent issues is a cut above, Romita is really fucking overrated in my book
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
18:23 / 14.10.04
Perceptive. All I was really talking about is how badly JMS fumbles over himself in trying to rationalise writing the story.

Let us never again talk of these petty things which hold no bearing on real life!

GO OUTSIDE INTER-NERDS!
 
 
FinderWolf
18:30 / 14.10.04
Yeah, but come on, you can still discuss the validity or lack thereof of an idea relating to a fictional character or how a character is written. People do it all the time with 'regular' books and even (gasp) movies - it's called criticism.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:04 / 14.10.04
Does anyone else think we should, perhaps, change the title of this thred to reflect the current dialogue of various writers' treatment of the Spiderman charactor/mythos?

Spiderman Mythology Surgery to remain en vogue?
 
 
FinderWolf
14:18 / 15.10.04
Well, I was just going to comment back on Millar's Spider-Man again. I'd recommend that we keep this thread about Millar's Spider-Man and if there's a lot more discussion about Gwen and Norman (which it doesn't seem there will be, that's my gut feeling at least), we can start a separate thread (and move the related posts over to the new thread if possible). Although it really doesn't matter much to me, I happily yield to the moderators' wisdom on this.

Plus, that 'icky subjects in comics' thread can handle the bulk of any more Gwen & Normie talk, methinks.

I like the new design of Venom, esp. since ol' Venny-Boy will likely be the baddie in Spider-Man 3. It's just slightly simplified from the original wacked-up drooling black magick mirror and huge tongue all over the place version.

But how does this jibe with the even more different version of Venom's 'costume' seen in an upcoming cover by Frank Cho (in his 2nd fill-in issue)?

I like the idea of Spidey being told he's got to buy something to use the bathroom at a diner. Typical Spider-Man moment. I also like the idea of Peter going to high school reunion with Mary Jane and all the people there agog at MJ's hotness. Typical geek wish fulfillment at work Although the jocks wanting to mess with Peter at the reunion was a bit silly and contrived.

I like the idea of a mob loser winning the bid for the Venom symbiote.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:32 / 16.10.04
Just a quick question...I've ordered the first trade of the first few issues, but is this series in continuity?

Because, if it isn't, that means we now have 4 seperate Spider-Man realities, and I can start looking to "Crisis On Infinise Spider-Man Earths".
 
 
NezZ the 2nd
10:29 / 18.10.04
Bring back the CLONES. Then have a tie in with Star Wars: Clone Wars. Go on admit it, that idea made you wet, didn't it ??
 
 
FinderWolf
12:47 / 18.10.04
Yes, it is definitely in regular Marvel Universe continuity.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:58 / 22.10.04
Over in the shitty Spectacular Spider-Man, they just concluded an awful and boring story about an insectoid Queen who takes over NY and then turns Spider-Man into a spider. When all's said and done...Peter Parker ends up with...organic webshooters! And some mild telepathy, cause insects have hive minds, don'cha know.

I wish I was kidding.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:09 / 23.10.04
Also, I'd just like to say that I re-read the last two issues of Millar's Spider-Man and I'm enjoying it more and more....Millar's writing here seems sharper, more taut, and less full of annoying Millar-isms than it has in a while. He's starting to come off like a 'hungry, enthusiastic young writer' again in this series, as opposed to 'complacent and full of annoying Millar-isms.'

I think the secret villian is Ben Reilly, even though it seems far too obvious, I know.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:46 / 23.10.04
Waitwaitwait- so they've actually altered his powerset?

Wonder how long that'll last.
 
  

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