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Underground > Comic Books >

The Avengers

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Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:31 / 24.09.04

Yo' Mama?

Has it ever been established before that She-Hulk could freak out like the Hulk and get stronger and nutzer, or is this something that Bendis invented for issue 500?

15:44 / 24.09.04

wasn't there a Geoff Jones storyloine where She-Hulk freaks out (maybe after exposure to the red skull's gas?)

too bad it doesn't really jive with what's going on in She-Hulk's own title; which is quite enjoyable BTW.

16:54 / 24.09.04

SPOIL-O-MATIC for those who care (which doesn't seem to be many on this board...)

Hawkeye bites it.

BUT, Bendis leaves himself quite an out for future writers with a way to bring Hawkeye back easily. They don't find a body.

The issue was ok...just sort of decent, ehhh. I'm still curious to see where Bendis goes with his New Avengers thing.

18:40 / 24.09.04

I kinda like it. I'm no great Avengers fan, though. Loved the first scene whith the Kree ship.

I gotta say I don't like Bendis' use of multiple exclamation points. It's fine for emails and message boards but looks stupid in comics.

Oh yeah, if every Avenger has showed up, where's Beast?

18:45 / 24.09.04

Now a bunch of message boards are a'flurry with the observation that Finch drew a Skrull somewhere in the fight scene. So maybe those weren't real Kree after all...and Dr. Strange comes in at the end to say there's magical energy about all this -- either Loki's behind it or some are theorizing that Wanda's involved (since the arc is called "Chaos" and the rumors are that some Avengers betray the team somehow). I'm half geeked out/excited about this and half not very psyched.

19:13 / 24.09.04

Yeah, the story seems to lean heavily on what the big REVEAL will be.

what we know:
this day is the "worst" day in Avengers history.

It will be known as such in the future and some magical force/person(s) is manipulating the situation to create a series of bad to worse situations.

Alot is pointing towards Loki, especially if one considers how this is suppose to reflect occurances in THOR.

Could this be a new MASTERS of EVIL consisting of LOKI, KANG & ULTRON?

curious but not entirley excited by the story.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:43 / 27.09.04

"Not like this! LIKE THIS!!!"

I'm starting to wonder if Bendis is taking the piss.

16:00 / 27.09.04

If it does reflect the latest Thor, Lokis really not the threat he used to be ! Or half the man ;-)

16:17 / 27.09.04

Doesn't Scarlet Witch manipulate probability as part of her Hex power? If she is behind it, she could be altering the probability of all these horrible things happening all at once to destroy the Avengers.

Or it's Egghead.

21:50 / 10.10.04

From LITG

Spoiler? Probably.

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I understand that Scarlet Witch is the Avengers "baddie" - the person behind all this death and destruction all over the place. Indeed, the clue is in the title of the story arc, "Chaos" - a reference to the chaos magic nature of Scarlet Witch's powers as they're currently explained.

15:33 / 11.10.04

As soon as Strange appeared at the end, that is the same point that popped into my head - its the Scarlet Witch. Thus not only are they disassembled by team members deaths, but also by a traitor.

13:32 / 12.10.04

is she a traitor, then, or are her powers spiraling out of control, unbeknownst to her? We'll see....

08:57 / 13.10.04

As far as I can remember, the 1st ish had ended on a discussion between the baddies, both of whom appeared to be ladies.

So then, the questions are, if it is the Scarlet Witch, what's her beef, and who's her mate?

Finder, I'm assuming that Witchy (if it is her) knows what she's doing - her starring role in the aforementioned convo suggests conscious decision making.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

20:25 / 28.10.04

Just read spoilers to the end of this.

Jesus.

It seems Bendis may have had a hand in bringing Magneto back.

07:53 / 29.10.04

Scarlet Witch had some ghosty children with the Vizh; I feel that may have some bearing.

14:06 / 29.10.04

Did #503 come out yet, or are people discussing First Look preview copies?? I'm so confused, I see all this discussion and spoilers about it on the net but I swear I haven't seen it in my comic shop...

15:38 / 29.10.04

It was supposed to be out this week but it's late.

01:25 / 04.11.04

Spoiler alert!
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Magneto comes to retrieve Wanda's body, and says:

"Xavier was right. It was you."

Does this mean that she was behind the "Evil Imposter" Magneto that trashed NYC in New X-Men? I don't really care to bring all this back up, but I definitely prefer this explanation to Claremont's Imposter theory.

15:06 / 04.11.04

My thoughts, also. And it leads into another Bendo mini, House of M.

Hrrrmbl. I've got to a point recently where I wanted to start disliking the Bendis, but this and the last Daredevil were both pretty fine, really.

15:52 / 04.11.04

I found that issue rather disapointing.

Lots of babbling by heads I bairly recognised.

An overlong explaination that was both Obvious and just bland.

So Yeah Scarlet Witch HAS had mental problems and it seems her power levels have been on par with Phoenix... (Omega level reality control?)... except without the emotional/psychological core that seems to have kept Jean relatively sane.

I DID like the bit with her talking to a long dead Agitha Harkness.. though it ultimately lacked the potental creapyness.

Are we to assume that she has alos been behind the reappearance of the Red Skull and all those other DISSASSEMBLED crossovers?

I thought Magneto said
"charles was right. I did let Wanda down"

But yeah so maybe she was responsible for either the Evil Magneto or the Nobel one... Glad they're keeping the Jeminez Outfit at least.

Liked the historical montage but still the story seemed very insubstantial.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

16:14 / 04.11.04

Yeah, they get attacked at the mansion a bit then strange turns up - nothing seemed to fucking happen!

16:28 / 04.11.04

the problem with the Avengers, i'm coming to think, is that their line-up never matched their supposed stature. if i was going to make a roster of the people who have really been the core of the Avengers over the years, it would be these folks:

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hawkeye
Wasp
Hank Pym in his various incarnations
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
She-Hulk.

the problem is that, except for Cap and Iron Man, these are all basically B-level characters. Thor is powerful and has had good runs and all that, but he's just silly. he's Fabio reading the King James Bible. Hawkeye and She-Hulk have a certain cachet, and Pietro and Wanda get a little crossover interest from the X-folks. other than that, no one in fandom, outside of a small Avengers cult, gives a fuck about any of the rest of them.

a team of B-listers with a small cult following is, in and of itself, fine. but Marvel always tries to pretend that it's a flagship book, and the rest of the Marvel Universe gives them a weird deference like "oh, they're the Avengers!" as if it were impressive or something, but the fans haven't bought it for a long time. the premier Marvel team is the X-Men, and that's the way it's been for a few decades now. however, Marvel has continued to make ritual genuflections in their direction, and have basically been trying to get the fans to play along, and it hasn't worked.

the Avengers-as-we-knew-them were basically the Giffen-era Justice League, except that everyone keeps trying to pretend that they're the Morrison-era JLA and it falls flat.

Marvel always needed to pick one side of the fence and run with it. make this a team of larger-than-life icons, or make it a team of schlubs that appeals to a core of devoted fans who care about them as characters. it seems like they've made up their minds, and as such, it makes sense to have one of the characters no one gives a fuck about kill off all the other characters no one gives a fuck about to clear the decks.

maybe we can have someone do Formerly Known As the Avengers in a couple of years approaching the other side of the equation.

17:35 / 04.11.04

well I think the primary schism in the AVENGERS dynamic is that Marvel in and of itself is not entirely ICON friendly.

So Marvel's ICONS are icons not because of their Heroci status Ala SUPERMAN. Take SPIDERMAN, WOLVERINE, HULK, IRON MAN and Capt AMERICA; just off the top of my head while I would consider them all marvel icons only 2 of them have the heroic stature equivalent to Superman and company.

When the Avengers originally came togethe they seemed very similar to JLA in their Line-up. However as the comic series evolved they became somewhat stuck in a mode similar to JLA's silver age; a large team composed of charactors that didn't always have their own title.

Still, with-in the MARVEL universe those Heroes where some of the "best" and so in that context where respected by their peers; though there would be difficulty in comparing them with the JLA... a feat that was deftly accomplished by Kurt Busiek BTW.

As for the NEW AVENGERS...that lineup could make for some very interesting charactor dynamics.

19:34 / 04.11.04

As for the NEW AVENGERS...that lineup could make for some very interesting charactor dynamics.

i'm really actually excited for New Avengers for one reason and one reason only: putting Spider-Man on a high-profile team on a permanent basis is the only interesting thing left to do with the character.

i'm probably in the minority when i say that one of my favorite things about Spidey is that he grew up, he got married, he developed over time. having him join a team, having him take on that level of responsibility, having him realize that he's actually a well-respected veteran and not some dumb kid, is the next logical stage in his progression.

13:48 / 05.11.04

I didn't think I would like this, but I did. I found the reasoning for Wanda's flipping out to be quite good -- I mean, a parent's love for their children is one of the strongest motivations known to humanity (esp. a mother's, I think), and she did have her memories erased, why wouldn't she be pissed? (There's a lot of talk in comics today about people's memories being erased unbeknownst to them, isn't there - Geoff Johns in FLASH - Flash's secret ID restored, Identity Crisis with Dr. Light and other JLA villians, now the discussion of Wanda's memories of her "children" having been wiped out)

The only thing about the New Avengers that makes my stomach turn (at this point) is Wolverine on the team. I know Bendis defends himself by saying 'hey, it'll be great character interaction to see Wolvie interact with the other heroes', but that still doesn't take away Wolverine's gross overexposure and being on another major overexposed Marvel team.

Keith, like a scientist

15:29 / 05.11.04

I like Bendis. There. I said it.

Freaking "Powers"? It's one of the best comics out there at the moment. And "Alias"? Loved that book.

As for Avengers, I was blown away by the first two issues (Ulton, anybody?), found the 3rd lacking a bit, and have decided this last part was pretty nifty. If Scarlet Witch was behind the (ahem, "stupid," cough) "imposter" Magneto...well, ok. That's at least a little better for that terrible development and raping of Grant's story.

Looking forward to New Avengers.

15:38 / 05.11.04

The only thing about the New Avengers that makes my stomach turn (at this point) is Wolverine on the team. I know Bendis defends himself by saying 'hey, it'll be great character interaction to see Wolvie interact with the other heroes', but that still doesn't take away Wolverine's gross overexposure and being on another major overexposed Marvel team.

at this point, i basically treat every book that's not a direct crossover of some kind as if it happens in its own hermetically sealed little microverse. i've finally accepted that the best way to approach this is to treat every new run on every book as a fresh start.

so, right now, i'm reading Whedon's Wolverine in Astonishing X-Men. i expect to soon be reading Milligan's Wolverine in X-Men, and Bendis' Wolverine in New Avengers (as well as Secret War, whenever it comes out). if they don't all mesh, i'm not going to care as long as they each mesh with my take on Wolverine. i'm perfectly happy reading three books with well-written Wolverines in them every month (as long as they are well-written), and ignoring all the others.

15:52 / 05.11.04

Keith, are you aware that "freaking" was invented by censors as a substitute for "fucking"?

Do you support censorship? Do you think freaking sounds good?

Please, I know you're a good guy. Try to swear like one.

16:18 / 05.11.04

What a shitty conclusion.

I wonder if I'd have liked it better if it hadn't been spoiled.

Looking forward to New Avengers, most of Bendis is still good.

I love Bendis.

Alias (the pulse is a mediocre book), Powers, Goldfish, Jinx, Torso, Fortune and Glory and DAREDEVIL!

How can I not love the man?

Keith, like a scientist

16:26 / 05.11.04

I tend to use "fucking" for violent responses and "freaking" for joyous responses.

Like "Who's fucking saying I support fucking censorship?"

And "Did you see the freaking Revenge of the freaking Sith teaser trailer??"

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

22:06 / 05.11.04

"I DID like the bit with her talking to a long dead Agitha Harkness.. though it ultimately lacked the potental creapyness."

I read that as Wanda had killed Harkness when she had discovered Harkness had wiped Wanda's memories of her fake kids.

Thus when the Avengers attacked Wanda at Harkness' manor they found the corpse of Harkness, sitting there where she'd been when the Scarlet Witch smoked her.

Are we to assume that she has alos been behind the reappearance of the Red Skull and all those other DISSASSEMBLED crossovers?

She's behind Captain America's hallucinations in Cap&Falcon (as this week's issue discusses) and Tony Stark's faux drungen rage in Iron Man, otherwise I don't see too many of the crossovers actually well.. being part of the crossover. Except maybe Thor which just served to write him out.

"I thought Magneto said
"charles was right. I did let Wanda down""

Magneto looks at vegatable Scarlet Witch in his arms:
"Xavier was right. It was you."

Shot of Wanda's unmoving face.

Magneto: "I failed you."

Which does seem to imply that there is some sort of connection there. (Given that an upcoming issue of the neigh-unreadable Excalibur is supposed to be a Disasembled Epilogue, this will probably be covered there.)

Of course it's hard to figure that out in any timescale as Hawkeye and the Wasp were only shagging recently in the Austen run of Avengers and the Xorneto stuff has been going on forever. But eh. I'm sure Claremont will explain it all. Poorly. Perhaps in his strange alternate-dimension youthspeak which fills the pages of Excalibur.

02:34 / 06.11.04

God, 503 was very, very, very bad. Poorly written and the characters just standing there, as a bunch of idiots. The whole "Chaos"' plot has more holes than a heroin addict's arm. Bendis made a fool of himself.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

02:46 / 06.11.04

I have to agree that 32 some pages of Deus Exposition Strange was pretty lame. The idea at it's core wasn't at all bad, but the execution could have been a lot better.

23:17 / 10.11.04

I was looking forward to Disassembled, but it turned out to be pretty piss poor.

When you think that it ran for 4 issues (6 issues worth if you count the double sized start & end) then fuck all happened. The first part was full of pretty explosions spread over fours pages per explosion.

What I disliked most about the storyline was the lazy storytelling. The Avengers do naff all to try and solve their own problems. Events happen to them and then Dr Strange pops up to give them a 23 page speech about what's been really going on.

And WHY exactly is this the END of the Avengers. Sure, it's a bad day but why don't they rebuild as they have so many times in the past? Cos they wanna relaunch the book as a Spidey-Wolvie team up that's why.

What a fucking pointless story throwing lots of good history out of the window just so they can have yet another fucking new first issue launch.

(NB Kevin I read the scene as Wanda killing her old mentor as you did. But I doubt very much if its intended that she was responsible for the Magneto attacking NY story. That was really X-Men centred. The Avengers were err... out of town that month. I think it would be pretty lame back writing if they put that one down to her too.)

rabideyemovement

05:18 / 11.11.04

I'm sure the classic Avenger's lineup will be back within the year... Scarlet Witch included.

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